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Tschakko

Different prices of Premium Membership

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What a discussion....I'm no tax expert but the questions others have asked sound logical. I think it's a pity GS can't be bothered to reply properly to those concerns, that only destroys their credibility. On the other hand, many of those who claimed not to get a PM because this price difference is ridiculous (which I agree with), are listed as Premium Members. Huh?

 

I never seriously considered becoming a PM...why should I pay 30USD (back then I didn't even know I'd actually have to pay 30 EUR!!) for something I can perfectly do for free?? Hoping I will turn 80 happy and geocaching one day, I would contribute 50 times 30 EUR...there are more than 6 million geocachers in this world, so now do some maths!

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What a discussion....I'm no tax expert but the questions others have asked sound logical. I think it's a pity GS can't be bothered to reply properly to those concerns, that only destroys their credibility. On the other hand, many of those who claimed not to get a PM because this price difference is ridiculous (which I agree with), are listed as Premium Members. Huh?

 

I never seriously considered becoming a PM...why should I pay 30USD (back then I didn't even know I'd actually have to pay 30 EUR!!) for something I can perfectly do for free?? Hoping I will turn 80 happy and geocaching one day, I would contribute 50 times 30 EUR...there are more than 6 million geocachers in this world, so now do some maths!

 

FYI, I paid $30 and would have paid $30+ VAT but I'm not paying €30 as long as it's possible to do so. There are plenty of methods to get PM without "tipping" GS.

 

And yes, you can go caching for free but PM has it's advantages, ever tried to keep a decent GSAK database up-to-date?

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What a discussion....I'm no tax expert but the questions others have asked sound logical. I think it's a pity GS can't be bothered to reply properly to those concerns, that only destroys their credibility. On the other hand, many of those who claimed not to get a PM because this price difference is ridiculous (which I agree with), are listed as Premium Members. Huh?

 

When the change was made people who decided not to renew their premium membership would still be premium members until it expired.

 

It is a shame Groundspeak considers themselves above communicating with their paying customers, and it's also a shame that their promises are clearly worth nothing. But that's their call, and their paying customers can decide whether or not to remain paying customers when their subscription ends.

 

Personally I found that basic membership costs the same for UK as US members, and at $0 there's no scope to add VAT to it.

 

(ETA: The forum still lists me as a premium member even though the main site tells me my membership expired. Oh well.)

 

I never seriously considered becoming a PM...why should I pay 30USD (back then I didn't even know I'd actually have to pay 30 EUR!!) for something I can perfectly do for free?? Hoping I will turn 80 happy and geocaching one day, I would contribute 50 times 30 EUR...there are more than 6 million geocachers in this world, so now do some maths!

 

If you do very much caching it's handy to use pocket queries - it makes it much easier to put caches in your GPS so you're not having to download them individually. If you like to play the FTF game it can be handy to have email notifications so you can drop everything and rush out to get a cache when it's published. If you do neither of those things then the benefits of premium membership are limited. Some talk of "supporting Groundspeak" as if they were a charity - in the early days of caching it might have made sense to "support the cause" but if, like me, you believe that Groundspeak is helping to destroy the game I once enjoyed you may not wish to support them in their cause. Certainly I'd regard buying something to "support the cause" as making no more sense than buying something I didn't want from Wal-Mart to support them.

Edited by team tisri

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I did renew.

 

My paypal invoice shows:

 

Business name: Groundspeak

Email: contact@Groundspeak.com

 

Order Description:

Shopping Cart

Item Amount: £24.99 GBP

VAT: £0.00 GBP

Postage: £0.00 GBP

Packaging: £0.00 GBP

 

Nowhere does it indicate that the cost includes a VAT element.

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To be clear, only new/nonrecurring members will be paying the new rates. If you have a recurring membership, you are locked in at the rates you have always been paying.

 

Unless like me your premium membership expired today after 8 years because you received no reminders. I'm now being asked for more than $41 after being promised $30 for life.:surprise:

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Unless like me your premium membership expired today after 8 years because you received no reminders. I'm now being asked for more than $41 after being promised $30 for life.:surprise:

 

Be creative and pay $30 B)

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Unless like me your premium membership expired today after 8 years because you received no reminders. I'm now being asked for more than $41 after being promised $30 for life.:surprise:

 

Be creative and pay $30 B)

 

So presumably you can either get someone in the US to gift you membership or... the other way.:ph34r:

Edited by SidAndBob

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because this topic should be kept alive

i was thinking of going premium...but the site keeps asking for 30€ and i'm not happy with that. What is funny is that if i change to switzerland, where i'm studying, i have the dollar option again...it's really funny that you don't do the conversion of swiss francs.

i think it's time maybe to think about the opensource (or opencaching) options. If you don't embrace the community, it will go away

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Has the VAT number been made available yet?

 

Looks like it's a "virtual" and finding it is a D5 :ph34r:

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Has the VAT number been made available yet?

 

Looks like it's a "virtual" and finding it is a D5 :ph34r:

 

Ha! I was reminded of this thread when I didn't renew my premium this year and received an email from Groundspeak "C8W9, did you forget something?" trying to sell me a premium membership. As they still have not been honest about the VAT, then I don't think that I've forgotten to do anything.

 

Has Groundspeak still forgot to tell us this information? Let me remind them of some information from HMRC:

 

https://www.gov.uk/report-vat-fraud

 

VAT fraud is a type of tax evasion. It happens when a business doesn’t charge VAT when they should, or charges you VAT but doesn’t pay it to HMRC. They might:

 

- ask you to pay cash to avoid paying VAT on a sale or job

- ask you to make the payment to someone other than the business, or several payments to different people or businesses

- not be registered for VAT when they should be

- claim to have applied for a VAT number when they haven’t

- use a VAT number that’s false or belongs to someone else - check a UK VAT number is valid

Edited by C8W9

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Browbeating a company is always a good way to get what you want.

 

It's been clear for a long time that GS is not going to disclose their VAT registration number. Why they choose not to make it public remains a mystery as it should in no way be a company secret. Any company I've ever dealt with prints it's VAT nr. as well as other company info (name, address, contact info..) on their website and their invoices. There is no valid reason to hide a VAT nr unless.....

Edited by on4bam

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Has Groundspeak still forgot to tell us this information? Let me remind them of some information from HMRC:

 

 

Since it has been 516 days since Bryan promised to provide the registration number if they can, perhaps he did simply forget. While Groundspeak could provide the number (and some companies who are registered under the VOES program do), they are not required to do so. Being unresponsive is certainly not the same as fraud. But if Bryan had chosen to honor his promise - and Groundspeak provided customer service information about VOES as other companies do - it would have resolved such issues a long time ago. Perhaps 515 days ago.

Edited by geodarts

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Being unresponsive is certainly not the same as fraud.

 

For sure! But if this...

 

My paypal invoice shows:

 

Business name: Groundspeak

Email: contact@Groundspeak.com

 

Order Description:

Shopping Cart

Item Amount: £24.99 GBP

VAT: £0.00 GBP

Postage: £0.00 GBP

Packaging: £0.00 GBP

 

Nowhere does it indicate that the cost includes a VAT element.

 

along with the other examples on this thread are any indication, then something dodgy is going on.

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Being unresponsive is certainly not the same as fraud.

 

For sure! But if this...

 

My paypal invoice shows:

 

Business name: Groundspeak

Email: contact@Groundspeak.com

 

Order Description:

Shopping Cart

Item Amount: £24.99 GBP

VAT: £0.00 GBP

Postage: £0.00 GBP

Packaging: £0.00 GBP

 

Nowhere does it indicate that the cost includes a VAT element.

 

along with the other examples on this thread are any indication, then something dodgy is going on.

 

Since Groundspeak charges a VAT inclusive rate, and does not have to issue a VAT receipt under the VOES program, this does not surprise me. But Groundspeak should explain this, as some other companies who are registered under the same program do.

 

I’d like to apologize for the lack of clear and proactive communication. You deserve better and we’ll do our best to provide clear information more proactively in the future.

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Guess what, the laws are changing... will Groundspeak respond I wonder??

 

Quote:

 

From 1 January 2015 there are new place of supply rules for value added tax (VAT) on the supply of digital services by businesses to consumers in the EU.

 

VAT on digital services will be paid in the consumer’s country, not the supplier’s country. It will be charged at the rate that applies in the consumer’s country.

What you need to do

 

As a supplier of digital services to EU consumers you can either:

 

register for VAT in each EU country you supply to

register to use the VAT Mini One Stop Shop (VAT MOSS) online service

 

Using VAT MOSS, you can account for the VAT due on your business to consumer (B2C) sales in other EU countries by submitting a single quarterly return and payment to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

 

HMRC will send an electronic copy of the appropriate part of your return, and any payment, to each relevant country’s tax authority.

Digital services

 

‘Digital services’ includes:

 

broadcasting - the supply of television or radio programs

telecommunications - fixed and mobile telephony, fax and connection to the internet

e-services - video on demand, downloaded applications (or ‘apps’), music downloads, gaming, e-books, anti-virus software and online auctions

 

This is a fast-changing area. These are examples rather than a complete list of digital services.

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Guess what, the laws are changing... will Groundspeak respond I wonder??

 

Quote:

 

From 1 January 2015 there are new place of supply rules for value added tax (VAT) on the supply of digital services by businesses to consumers in the EU.

 

VAT on digital services will be paid in the consumer’s country, not the supplier’s country. It will be charged at the rate that applies in the consumer’s country.

 

 

Still one day to think "long and hard" about this :rolleyes:

Maybe GS will finally handle VAT as it should handle it. Premium Membership price +% VAT and not "let's take an extra chunck of income from these EU guys and say it's all inclusive".

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Guess what, the laws are changing... will Groundspeak respond I wonder??

 

From 1 January 2015 there are new place of supply rules for value added tax (VAT) on the supply of digital services by businesses to consumers in the EU.

 

VAT on digital services will be paid in the consumer’s country, not the supplier’s country. It will be charged at the rate that applies in the consumer’s country.

 

These rules do not affect Groundspeak. They are internal EU rules that provide for a one-stop registration for electronic services with the VAT based on the consumer's country rather than the sellers.

 

Groundspeak is registered under a separate program that already lets a non-EU business register at a single location and collect VAT for electronic services at the rate applicable to the consumer's country. It gets a little confusing because Groundspeak charges the same all-inclusive rate throughout the EU. Since the tax rate differs among the countries, this effectively means that Groundspeak is charging more for its services in some member states, and less in others. As long as they remit the correct tax for each country, though, it is simply a matter of proper bookkeeping.

 

In other words, the new rules will let EU businesses use the same type of scheme that Groundspeak already uses under its VOES registration. The program for businesses in foreign countries has been distinct in some important ways, such as the VAT invoice not being required. I have not checked if EU providers for electronic services still have to provide a VAT invoice under the new scheme.

 

Again, it is surprising that Groundspeak does not provide a FAQ / Knowledge Base article that explains the program they use. It would make things much simpler.

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Thats ridicolous indeed!

Theres no reason to penalise european cacher. To mention "included VAT" is a piece of impudence. I'm pretty sure, that Groundspeak does not pay any kind of tax to any european authority. Including VAT! :anibad:

Groundspeak better stabilise their server environment first. Response times are out of question presently.

 

I'm very disappointed!

nani50

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I'm pretty sure, that Groundspeak does not pay any kind of tax to any european authority. Including VAT! :anibad:

 

I think they do... :ph34r: However, I can't prove it because their VAT number is kept at a secret location together with the US nuclear launch codes and no one has ever seen it :lol:

 

I wonder how GS is going to handle the lower value of the Euro.

Just assume that they do pay 20% VAT with the €30 PM. These days, $30 + 20% VAT = US$36. However €30 at today's rate is $34.70. Should we now assume that GS is losing US$1.30 per EU PM?

They said the "inclusive price" is to make sure EU PM's shouldn't have to worry about exchange rates (easy to say if you take a nice percentage extra above the rates as it was 2 years ago). What if the trend continues to, let's say, € to $ being on par?

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It reached $1.22/€ back in 2010, and $1.23/€ in 2012. Today's rate of $1.23/€ isn't anything to raise that much concern -- yet. Remember, we were last at parity back in 2002.

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It reached $1.22/€ back in 2010, and $1.23/€ in 2012. Today's rate of $1.23/€ isn't anything to raise that much concern -- yet. Remember, we were last at parity back in 2002.

 

Ok, I'll buy from you then.

 

Look here Now (today) you get $1.15525 for €1 so I'll take your exchange rate B)

You'll get even worse rates exchanging real money.

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It seems its cheaper also to buy the premium membership via an in-app purchase on the ios (iPhone) version of the official Geocaching app. Its then on £22.99 and you also get a VAT receipt from iTunes. This is particularly bonkers as clearly Apple take their cut too.

 

So if you are an Iphone user with the official app and want an even better deal, buy a £25 iTunes voucher as you often get these on special offer (e.g. from cdkeys you will get 5% off + 5%extra off with a special code via facebook). So I paid £23.50 approximately for a £25 of credit which I then spent £22.99. The actual cost was therefore £21.50 and I know I paid UK VAT.

 

It maybe the same for the Android app, I can't say.

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Well according to the news the Euro and USD will soon reach parity and then the USD will over take the Euro.

 

Once 30 Euros is less then $30 I will be cancelling my USA premium subscription and and going to a European one.

 

See how easy that is? No need to complain....just take advantage of the situation.

Edited by Geo Jedimeister

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Once 30 Euros is less then $30 I will be cancelling my USA premium subscription and and going to a European one.

 

Looks like GS is going to lose money on this one... 20% VAT is included in €30 so when the €/$ is on parity they will get $25 for a EU PM instead of $30 unless.........

 

Remember, they said we wouldn't have to worry about exchange rates. Well, soon we won't :lol:B)

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Yup and the way geocachng is growing in Europe I think their European membership will outnumber the USA soon!

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They've still not answered this, and with the dropping of Windows Phone support, they've lost 30 dollars a year (24.99 inc VAT) from me from now. Thanks GS, was fun while it lasted. I loved caching, but having to buy a new GPS/Phone to make use of features that I'm paying for as a Premium User as well as seeing this means that I'll find another hobby.

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Results are in about the UK leaving the EU. Since GS has (allegedly) registered a UK VAT number this may soon become a problem when ties are broken between the UK and EU. Why would EU members pay VAT to a US company that's registered in the UK?

Will only UK cachers pay VAT and all others be considered "rest of the world" or will GS register (or say they registered) in another EU country?

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... or will GS register (or say they registered) in another EU country?

 

If this is the option, they will have to choose carefully because referendums to leave EU will continue (as referendums for certain regions to leave the actual country).

Maybe GS should register in all European countries. unsure.gif

 

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Downloaded the App on Android, and how odd, seems that a premium sub via the google play store is 23.17 a year with auto renew, as opposed to 24.99 with GS. Is there any particular reason for this?

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What a discussion....I'm no tax expert but the questions others have asked sound logical. I think it's a pity GS can't be bothered to reply properly to those concerns, that only destroys their credibility. On the other hand, many of those who claimed not to get a PM because this price difference is ridiculous (which I agree with), are listed as Premium Members. Huh?

I have not been a premium member for about a year, however under my avatar it still states that I am. Once again, Groundspeak doing a stellar job.

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What a discussion....I'm no tax expert but the questions others have asked sound logical. I think it's a pity GS can't be bothered to reply properly to those concerns, that only destroys their credibility. On the other hand, many of those who claimed not to get a PM because this price difference is ridiculous (which I agree with), are listed as Premium Members. Huh?

I have not been a premium member for about a year, however under my avatar it still states that I am. Once again, Groundspeak doing a stellar job.

 

That's just in the forums. Your geocaching profile does not say you are premium. If you were to logout and log back into the forums, likely this would change.

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That's just in the forums. Your geocaching profile does not say you are premium. If you were to logout and log back into the forums, likely this would change.

Nope it does not. I don't stay logged in.

Besides, let's face it, Groundspeak does not care about the people paying them so long as they pay.

Edited by tttedzeins

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That's just in the forums. Your geocaching profile does not say you are premium. If you were to logout and log back into the forums, likely this would change.

Nope it does not. I don't stay logged in.

Besides, let's face it, Groundspeak does not care about the people paying them so long as they pay.

 

I don't know where you're seeing this, in your posts in this forum it says "Member" and not "Premium Member" under your avatar.

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That's just in the forums. Your geocaching profile does not say you are premium. If you were to logout and log back into the forums, likely this would change.

Nope it does not. I don't stay logged in.

Besides, let's face it, Groundspeak does not care about the people paying them so long as they pay.

 

I don't know where you're seeing this, in your posts in this forum it says "Member" and not "Premium Member" under your avatar.

When I was basic for a while, it still showed premium here in the forums.

I could log in/out a hundred times and that never changed.

Could still access off-topic too.

It wasn't until I mentioned it here that a Mod or Lackey "fixed" it for me... ;)

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Can one simply select "United States" to obtain the lower subscription rate, and pay in dollars with PayPal? Or does it not work like that? (Genuine question; I haven't done it myself. I'm considering Premium Membership, but I do object to the much higher rate being charged here in the UK).

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Isn't it fast becoming very expensive to pay in dollars from the UK, what with the Pound tanking?

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That's just in the forums. Your geocaching profile does not say you are premium. If you were to logout and log back into the forums, likely this would change.

Nope it does not. I don't stay logged in.

Besides, let's face it, Groundspeak does not care about the people paying them so long as they pay.

 

I don't know where you're seeing this, in your posts in this forum it says "Member" and not "Premium Member" under your avatar.

When I was basic for a while, it still showed premium here in the forums.

I could log in/out a hundred times and that never changed.

Could still access off-topic too.

It wasn't until I mentioned it here that a Mod or Lackey "fixed" it for me... ;)

 

Same here. Funny how no matter which computer I logged in to it said premium until the last post when it was fixed :)

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Hey, look, we're still talking about this three and a half years later. Hooray.

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Hey, look, I still have a different price to subscribe as a Premium Member, three and a half years later!

 

For your information, 29,99 EUR <> 29,99 $USD, so it is a discrimination and because of that I declined my Charter Member title and stopped my PM subscription.

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Hey, look, I still have a different price to subscribe as a Premium Member, three and a half years later!

 

For your information, 29,99 EUR <> 29,99 $USD, so it is a discrimination and because of that I declined my Charter Member title and stopped my PM subscription.

 

I lived in Europe for five years, back when the euro was much higher than it is presently. I was paid in dollars (with a laughably inadequate cost of living adjustment). I believe at the high point €1 was $1.40, and I watched it climb to €1 = $1.50 after I left in 2009. So, yes, I am well aware of the difference in the two currencies.

 

Currently that delta is minuscule (today, €29,99 = $32.57), which means Groundspeak is basically fronting the VAT at the moment (still 20%, right?). Hence my amazement that there is still something to complain about.

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One of the major complaints is that after all these years, it's still not clear that Groundspeak isn't just claiming to collect VAT while pocketing the change.

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As noted way back on page one, when Groundspeak needed to come into compliance with the EU authorities on the collection of VAT, they made a payment reflecting all tax years prior to 2013. This was basically a "gift" to EU subscribers, and I did not see a lot of thank-you's for that.

 

Now I'm thinking whether I should start a parallel thread for discrimination against US customers relative to EU customers. We could have one thread locked and the other one active at any given time, depending upon the applicable exchange rate. :laughing:

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One of the major complaints is that after all these years, it's still not clear that Groundspeak isn't just claiming to collect VAT while pocketing the change.

Groundspeak has made it clear that they pay it. See page 1. And oh, by the way, not doing so would be a crime.

 

Your turn. What crime should we accuse you of perpetrating without a shred of evidence to support our claims? I say mopery. It's nice and vague.

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<br />
<br />One of the major complaints is that after all these years, it's still not clear that Groundspeak isn't just claiming to collect VAT while pocketing the change.<br />
<br />Groundspeak has made it clear that they pay it.  See page 1.  And oh, by the way, not doing so would be a crime.<br /><br />Your turn.  What crime should we accuse you of perpetrating without a shred of evidence to support our claims?  I say mopery.  It's nice and vague.<br />
<br /><br /><br />The problem is that they - unlike every other entity I and other Europeans do business with - refuse to divulge their VAT registration number. This has been covered extensively over the last bazillion pages, so I'll not rehash it any further here. I just note that three years on, paying customers are still being kept in the dark.

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It's only been 1286 days since Bryan promised to research whether they could divulge the VAT registration and to provide more information if it is possible. In order to help that research, previous posts have demonstrated that there is no problem in providing it. Simply providing that information and a FAQ relating to the one-stop scheme for non-EU companies, including the VAT rate that is applied for each country (as some other businesses that are registered under that plan do) might have ended the thread a long time ago and demonstrated Bryan's commitment to improving communication.

 

It will be interesting to learn how Brexit impacts the EU registration - although I assume it will have to be researched through other sources since Groundspeak has never seen fit to tell people how the plan works. For now it appears that there are no immediate changes for non-EU companies.

 

------------

Edited to clarify that there have been some changes since this thread begs. Electronic services are now part of the non-Union VAT MOSS scheme (Mini One Stop Shop). It is essentially identical to the EU MOSS that went into effect in 2015. It might be noted that although the majority of member states do not require VAT invoices for electronic services across borders, there are some exceptions. According to the EU, nothing prevents a company from providing more information than is required. As before, the taxation rate for the EU varies according to where the consumer lives, so how much VAT is paid and how much the Groundspeak services cost will vary accordingly.

Edited by geodarts

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The problem is that they - unlike every other entity I and other Europeans do business with - refuse to divulge their VAT registration number. This has been covered extensively over the last bazillion pages, so I'll not rehash it any further here. I just note that three years on, paying customers are still being kept in the dark.

 

Apparently the "legal dept" decided against maaking the VAT number known while any other company will happily publish it on their website or at last on their invoices. I'm sure that if it good enough for companies like Amazon, Netflix ... it shoul be good enough for GS. Not providing the number at least gives th impression that something is fishy...

I find it hard to believe that, now that Euro<>Dollar rate is what it is, GS is covering the difference between 30Euro ($32.75) and $30 + 21% VAT ($36.30).

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The problem is that they - unlike every other entity I and other Europeans do business with - refuse to divulge their VAT registration number. This has been covered extensively over the last bazillion pages, so I'll not rehash it any further here. I just note that three years on, paying customers are still being kept in the dark.

 

Apparently the "legal dept" decided against maaking the VAT number known while any other company will happily publish it on their website or at last on their invoices. I'm sure that if it good enough for companies like Amazon, Netflix ... it shoul be good enough for GS. Not providing the number at least gives th impression that something is fishy...

I find it hard to believe that, now that Euro<>Dollar rate is what it is, GS is covering the difference between 30Euro ($32.75) and $30 + 21% VAT ($36.30).

 

OK -- so when the exchange rate was higher, some European cachers thought they were getting ripped off and Groundspeak wasn't actually doing it to cover VAT, I get that. But now that rates are lower, you think Groundspeak is perpetrating VAT fraud because you're not getting ripped off enough?

 

.

 

Couldn't tell you about why legal hasn't given the green light on publishing the VAT number. But if it were truly public information under EU regulations, one could put "Groundspeak" into a text search in VIES and just look it up. The fact that VIES will only verify whether or not a number is valid shows that the numbers aren't necessarily public information. I'll let anyone who is interested on the digital privacy concerns over VAT numbers do their own research, but it's readily available on the VIES site.

 

edit to add: I just checked two of my favorite Europe-based geocoin sellers. They do not have VAT numbers listed on their websites, though they have charged me VAT in the past. (I'm not going to pull them into this debate by naming which ones, Yellow ants can do his or her own homework.) So that's at least two entities that European geocachers do business with that have the same view as Groundspeak.

 

edit to add again: US tax ID numbers (Employer Identification Number or EIN) is only public information for publicly-held corporations, i.e., those that are traded on the market. Groundspeak is not such a company, and they may be treating their VAT ID the same way they treat their EIN.

Edited by hzoi

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