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Tschakko

Different prices of Premium Membership

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Don't think that by posting here that you are talking to the whole caching community. Only a very small percentage of cachers ever come to the forums and a small portion of those are regulars on the forums. You're gonna need to go to the local groups to get a wider audience. But you will still not get everyone.

 

But I have to get on board with Don_J on this. You need a letter-writing campaign. That works better than just about anything in America. And, to be honest, actual letters are better than emails. We call that "the squeaky wheel" method, as in "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". The more noise you make, the more attention your cause will get. If you (in the collective sense) just quietly protest by simply not renewing your premium membership, your cause will just fade away. That's just how it works here.

I AM active in the local forums in Germany (#2 country, when you just look on the number of active caches) and at the moment I'm seeking contact to the GAGB, the British Geocaching Association (#4 geocaching country). I know that I won't change the world by posting in this forum, but I hope to generate solidarity in other countries as well. To reach the one, who brings awareness to his local forum and spread the news around the world, and I know, that I'm on the right way, when I read posts like this:

As an Australian who is not (yet!) affected by this policy, I've nonetheless been following this thread with interest.

 

Frankly, Groundspeak's actions and attitude here are disgraceful.

 

They may well be being dragged into compliance with tax laws, and of course they would have no choice in that.

 

To raise prices by more than the tax margin, and claim it is because of the tax, is dirty.

To do it by stealth, with no announcement, hoping nobody will notice, is arrogant.

To claim the rise is for the convenience of those now charged more, is an insult.

To treat the community with contempt by ignoring the public outcry, is itself contemptible.

To refuse to honour the perpetual-renewal price lock-in contract (however foolishly it was made), is disgusting.

 

Groundspeak, it's not only the Europeans who are appalled by the way you're treating them.

But I won't write directly to G$, neither email, nor snail mail. It won't change a thing. Others may feel free to do so, I'm sure, I will join them, just to leave no stone unturned, but I won't initiate it. My goal is to persuade other cachers to list their caches on other platforms also.

OX

 

SQ has made a very important point which is basis of what I have been trying to say. You are dealing with an American company. Companies in America respond to direct feedback more than anything else. More than focus groups, test markets, sales or anything else, direct feedback will have the greatest impact. Do some research on the "New Coke" fiasco. Simply quitting without giving feedback will not change anything. Archiving your caches and listing them elsewhere without giving feedback will not change anything. Heck, you may be correct that a massive letter writing campaign may accomplish nothing, but at least you know that you did what you could.

 

What is your ultimate goal here? If it's simply to take your toys and go home and get everyone to follow you, then good luck. If it's to force Groundspeak to respond and come to an equitable solution so that you can all play happily ever after, then I suggest that you use the tools that have been presented to you.

 

The attitude that you won't try because it won't work just means that you've failed before you even left the gate.

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Companies in America respond to direct feedback more than anything else.

 

True.

I once worked for a company whose philosophy was that customers would quit, no matter how well they were treated.

 

Their plan was to pump those existing customers for leads to other new customers faster than they could quit.

 

A valid business plan that works for a time...until you pump yourself out of the market.

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At least something happens. The price for PM is no longer advertised at 30$ on the get premium page: http://www.geocaching.com/premium/

 

On the other hand I heard roumors, that Groundspeak is not registered for VAT with HMRC. The roumor goes, the only European business registration is that of a company called "Biddle Innovations Ltd." and that is for the trade mark "Travelbug". As veryfying this information would cost me about 14€ I cannot for shure say, if that's correct or not.

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At least something happens. The price for PM is no longer advertised at 30$ on the get premium page: http://www.geocaching.com/premium/

 

Well noted. This is how it was before this topic: http://web.archive.o...ng.com/premium/

 

On the other hand I heard roumors, that Groundspeak is not registered for VAT with HMRC. The roumor goes, the only European business registration is that of a company called "Biddle Innovations Ltd." and that is for the trade mark "Travelbug". As veryfying this information would cost me about 14€ I cannot for shure say, if that's correct or not.

 

Send me your iban # by and I'll pay you half of that money, if no one else wants help, to know if Groundspeak was lying to us or not. I'll pay to know the truth - as I already said, this is not about a few euros but about discrimination and lack of respect on the european geocachers.

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Did you see today's Latitude 47 email? 4 out of the top 5 geocaches are in Europe. GS might do well to start realizing that Europeans are important members.

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Did you see today's Latitude 47 email? 4 out of the top 5 geocaches are in Europe. GS might do well to start realizing that Europeans are important members.

That's interesting. I did not realize that Canada was part of Europe, I always thought it was part of North America. But then maybe that is just my colonist mentality kicking in.

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If you

 

The new pricing eliminates bank fees for geocachers outside the of the US, as you now are able to pay in your local currency and do not have to pay a transaction fee. More importantly, as Lil Devil mentioned, VAT is now included in the price.

If you choose Sweden the amount to pay is in euros. It is not the local currency and you have to pay transaction fee. In Sweden you pay in Swedish krona since we are not members of EMU/euro. For us, it just gets more expensive to pay in euro than in US dollar.

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At least something happens. The price for PM is no longer advertised at 30$ on the get premium page: http://www.geocaching.com/premium/

 

On the other hand I heard roumors, that Groundspeak is not registered for VAT with HMRC. The roumor goes, the only European business registration is that of a company called "Biddle Innovations Ltd." and that is for the trade mark "Travelbug". As veryfying this information would cost me about 14€ I cannot for shure say, if that's correct or not.

 

Now it's royally screwed up.

 

I went to look at the new page just out of interest, saw it registered my location as "United Kingdom". Out of curiosity I told it I was in the United States, at which point it asked for my address including ZIP code. So I navigated away from the page and the next thing I knew I had an email from Groundspeak saying they had charged me USD 29.99 for a premium membership renewal, despite not logging in to PayPal, not getting an email from PayPal, not confirming a transaction and my premium membership date not being extended.

 

For all I enjoy geocaching the few times I actually do it these days it seems Groundspeak couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery at the moment.

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At least something happens. The price for PM is no longer advertised at 30$ on the get premium page: http://www.geocaching.com/premium/

 

On the other hand I heard roumors, that Groundspeak is not registered for VAT with HMRC. The roumor goes, the only European business registration is that of a company called "Biddle Innovations Ltd." and that is for the trade mark "Travelbug". As veryfying this information would cost me about 14€ I cannot for shure say, if that's correct or not.

 

Now it's royally screwed up.

 

I went to look at the new page just out of interest, saw it registered my location as "United Kingdom". Out of curiosity I told it I was in the United States, at which point it asked for my address including ZIP code. So I navigated away from the page and the next thing I knew I had an email from Groundspeak saying they had charged me USD 29.99 for a premium membership renewal, despite not logging in to PayPal, not getting an email from PayPal, not confirming a transaction and my premium membership date not being extended.

 

For all I enjoy geocaching the few times I actually do it these days it seems Groundspeak couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery at the moment.

 

It´s been that way before too... I cancelled the process of getting a PM when I noticed that it was advertised 30$ and PayPal wanted 30€. That´s why I started this thread in the first place... I got this mail back then too, even though I did not go through the whole process...

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At least something happens. The price for PM is no longer advertised at 30$ on the get premium page: http://www.geocaching.com/premium/

 

On the other hand I heard roumors, that Groundspeak is not registered for VAT with HMRC. The roumor goes, the only European business registration is that of a company called "Biddle Innovations Ltd." and that is for the trade mark "Travelbug". As veryfying this information would cost me about 14€ I cannot for shure say, if that's correct or not.

 

Now it's royally screwed up.

 

I went to look at the new page just out of interest, saw it registered my location as "United Kingdom". Out of curiosity I told it I was in the United States, at which point it asked for my address including ZIP code. So I navigated away from the page and the next thing I knew I had an email from Groundspeak saying they had charged me USD 29.99 for a premium membership renewal, despite not logging in to PayPal, not getting an email from PayPal, not confirming a transaction and my premium membership date not being extended.

 

For all I enjoy geocaching the few times I actually do it these days it seems Groundspeak couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery at the moment.

 

It´s been that way before too... I cancelled the process of getting a PM when I noticed that it was advertised 30$ and PayPal wanted 30€. That´s why I started this thread in the first place... I got this mail back then too, even though I did not go through the whole process...

 

Looks like just adding a US address and paying with PayPal will revert it to the $29.99 price.

 

It can't be that hard to pick a town in Google Maps and enter an address there.

 

If Groundspeak are handing over the money they tell us is VAT to the relevant tax body then doing this just shifts any tax liability from them to us. If they aren't (and their ongoing refusal to disclose anything does leave that suspicion open) then it denies them the extra profit while also protecting us from finding ourselves liable for VAT on the supposedly VAT-inclusive price. I'd be annoyed if I paid £24.99 including VAT only to find no VAT had been paid and HMRC expected me to pay an extra £5 in VAT.

Edited by team tisri

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Still no reaction from GS?

 

*shake head*

 

Nope.

 

This is apparently their idea of improving communication with their customers.

 

Their idea of transparency seems to be a transition from "if we can disclose our registration details we will" to "we're not obliged to and so we won't".

 

Unless enough people make a similar transition from "if I can renew my premium membership I will" to "I'm not obliged to renew so I won't" the chances are nothing will change.

Edited by team tisri

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Still no reaction from GS?

 

*shake head*

 

This has beeen an interesting - if one sided - discussion. I do not know if Groundspeak is listening but I again direct my remarks to Bryan. The sad part about it is that it would have been so easy for you to have done things in a different way. You need only look to the examples of other companies that provide detailed information on the special VAT scheme for non-EU suppliers (VOES); document how much VAT is being applied or how much customers are paying for the services provided; or, provide their VOES numbers.

 

To me it has become a question of integrity. Not in the sense of whether Groundspeak is complying with its obligations under the VOES scheme, but in how you have failed to honor the commitment you made to improve communication. The small increase in the price of services (apart from VAT) and the way that it was implemented it does not affect me personally, but I am affected by the way that Groundspeak does business.

 

I used to trust the company. I did not always agree with your policies (such as what happened with virtuals), but I believed that Groundspeak operated within a structure of a larger community and that the company respected that position. I became a premium member as soon as joined – in part because of certain promises and commitments that Groundspeak made. Your actions make me wonder if you trust those involved with this game.

 

It is a matter of personal and corporate integrity to state that you are committed to communication, but remain silent. An open and full response could have ended this thread weeks ago.

 

It is a matter or personal and corporate integrity to state that you will provide information if you can, and then to retreat to a position that you will only divulge what is legally required. At the very least, if you were committed to improving communication, you would state why you are not providing information that other companies readily give.

 

It is a matter of personal and corporate integrity to break the contract you made with certain users and raise your rates (exclusive of VAT). It is a small increase, and after researching VOES I can understand some of the reasons for it. But to break a contract raises questions – and to do it without any acknowledgment, communication, or a full explanation belies the promises you made. It again makes me wonder if you trust your users enough to be open with them.

 

This is, of course, the problem with monopolies. Even the best ones seem to eventually disregard their customers. But I had expected more from Groundspeak. It is not too late.

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Very nicely put. Although I haven't posted much in this thread since the first few screens, I feel no less strongly about this and am appalled by the lack of communication and honesty from Groundspeak.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

As it seems G$ had to pay VAT or a penalty for those years that they failed to charge and forward VAT to the EU. AS I see the point, why this might increase the price, I still do not see a reason, why this has been done just on the Europeans. This is a mayor business failure and should not be shouldered by one group of customers.

 

I still recommend:

 

1. Full and open communication

2. One baseprice in US-$ worldwide (35$ for example)

3. Add the correct amount of VAT where applicable

And most importantly: Get good help by communications and law professionals that know what they are doing!

 

@G$: This topic won´t go away just like that. It takes time for all the PMs to notice... PLUS: Europeans or at least Germans tend to not complain that openly. They will look for alternatives and if there aren´t any they will create one, even though this might tale time. So in the long run you do better with open communication and equal treatment of customers.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

As it seems G$ had to pay VAT or a penalty for those years that they failed to charge and forward VAT to the EU. AS I see the point, why this might increase the price, I still do not see a reason, why this has been done just on the Europeans. This is a mayor business failure and should not be shouldered by one group of customers.

 

I still recommend:

 

1. Full and open communication

2. One baseprice in US-$ worldwide (35$ for example)

3. Add the correct amount of VAT where applicable

And most importantly: Get good help by communications and law professionals that know what they are doing!

 

@G$: This topic won´t go away just like that. It takes time for all the PMs to notice... PLUS: Europeans or at least Germans tend to not complain that openly. They will look for alternatives and if there aren´t any they will create one, even though this might tale time. So in the long run you do better with open communication and equal treatment of customers.

 

As a citizen of the US and Washington state I fail to see why I should pay your VAT charges. You yell and scream about being charged VAT now, where were those screams 5 or 10 years ago that you should have been charged VAT but weren't. Sorry, but I really can't understand why you feel I'm responsible for paying your tax man. Are you going to pay mine? No, I didn't think so. I also don't see a reason for my membership price to be raised because GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Leave the price alone.

 

I'll go along with charging the correct VAT and we can also throw in the correct sales tax for Washington state. Currently I pay nearly 1% more in the sales tax rate because I, and everyone else in Washington state, is being charged at the Seattle rate. I think GS said that was for our convenience.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

As it seems G$ had to pay VAT or a penalty for those years that they failed to charge and forward VAT to the EU. AS I see the point, why this might increase the price, I still do not see a reason, why this has been done just on the Europeans. This is a mayor business failure and should not be shouldered by one group of customers.

 

I still recommend:

 

1. Full and open communication

2. One baseprice in US-$ worldwide (35$ for example)

3. Add the correct amount of VAT where applicable

And most importantly: Get good help by communications and law professionals that know what they are doing!

 

@G$: This topic won´t go away just like that. It takes time for all the PMs to notice... PLUS: Europeans or at least Germans tend to not complain that openly. They will look for alternatives and if there aren´t any they will create one, even though this might tale time. So in the long run you do better with open communication and equal treatment of customers.

 

As a citizen of the US and Washington state I fail to see why I should pay your VAT charges. You yell and scream about being charged VAT now, where were those screams 5 or 10 years ago that you should have been charged VAT but weren't. Sorry, but I really can't understand why you feel I'm responsible for paying your tax man. Are you going to pay mine? No, I didn't think so. I also don't see a reason for my membership price to be raised because GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Leave the price alone.

 

I'll go along with charging the correct VAT and we can also throw in the correct sales tax for Washington state. Currently I pay nearly 1% more in the sales tax rate because I, and everyone else in Washington state, is being charged at the Seattle rate. I think GS said that was for our convenience.

 

You did not quite understand what I meant!

 

Well, it is not part of the customer to know that he has to pay tax. This should have been the chore of G$ before doing business in the EU. IF there has been a penalty. Then this has been G$ failure and they are liable for their mistakes. If this means they have to increase the price then it is a business decision, but they should do so equally.

 

I did not say that a US customer should pay EU VAT. BUT a penalty through the EU for mayor business failures through G$ is a different thing.

 

I am willing to pay my VAT that I have to pay, but not one cent more than that than others do pay too. As I said before. The way this is handeled will keep me from prolonging the PM I have at present.

 

Edited to add: Within the EU there are many PMs now, that did not have one before. So they did not make any mistakes either. So why should they pay this? It´s the same with US citizens. No matter how you look at this. G$ messed up a lot...

Edited by Tschakko

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....Within the EU there are many PMs now, that did not have one before. So they did not make any mistakes either. So why should they pay this? It´s the same with US citizens. No matter how you look at this. G$ messed up a lot...

Very well noted.

 

I, as one of the 'guilty ones', because I'm PM since 2002, send an email to Groundspeak offering to pay all the vat amount that maybe have been paid on my behalf during all these years. The only thing I requested was an evidence that the vat amount was effectively paid to an EU vat entity - request # 358817 in case anyone wants, and can, check it.

 

I received the answer that they cannot charge me retroactively. With that answer it seemed to me that Groundspeak effectively paid the vat amount since it is due.

 

Now, I read rumours that they may haven't paid the vat amount.... this doesn't fit with the answer I got from GS...

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As a citizen of the US and Washington state I fail to see why I should pay your VAT charges.

 

Quite right. (Although the reverse I'm sure is true when any non-american chooses to use an american company and contributes to tax payable in that country.)

 

But if that is the case (and sorry, but third hand information isn't enough for me), then any historical fault was Groundspeak's, not the users (European or American) and any settlement must come from Groundspeak's profits. There is a statute of limitations on such things normally, although jail time does occur if there was an oversight of a large scale.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

 

I've been advising that each and every one of you write Groundspeak individually and tell them that they are no longer getting any money from you until they address and resolve this issue. Those that have bothered to respond to me say that they won't do so because it won't do any good. Groundspeak will win out because of it's user's self defeatist attitude.

 

This lackey should have told you that he can't believe how many emails that they are getting and how it's the main topic of discussion around the water cooler at headquarters. Instead, he's asking you if it is still an issue. It doesn't matter if it's an issue or not if they don't know it's an issue.

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As a citizen of the US and Washington state I fail to see why I should pay your VAT charges.

 

Quite right. (Although the reverse I'm sure is true when any non-american chooses to use an american company and contributes to tax payable in that country.)

 

Except that sales tax isn't charged for items shipped out of state unless the supplier has a physical outlet in the buyer's home state. When the buyer's home state isn't within the US there's no sales tax. It's the same with at least some other countries too - if you don't live there you don't pay the local taxes.

 

But if that is the case (and sorry, but third hand information isn't enough for me), then any historical fault was Groundspeak's, not the users (European or American) and any settlement must come from Groundspeak's profits. There is a statute of limitations on such things normally, although jail time does occur if there was an oversight of a large scale.

 

Certainly any fault is Groundspeak's, and it may have cost them. It would still be nice to hear something, anything (you know, from the company that promised to be more transparent and communicate better) about why they have apparently ignored the law for a decade and only now decide to implement it in a way that looks like they hoped nobody would notice.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

 

I've been advising that each and every one of you write Groundspeak individually and tell them that they are no longer getting any money from you until they address and resolve this issue. Those that have bothered to respond to me say that they won't do so because it won't do any good. Groundspeak will win out because of it's user's self defeatist attitude.

 

This lackey should have told you that he can't believe how many emails that they are getting and how it's the main topic of discussion around the water cooler at headquarters. Instead, he's asking you if it is still an issue. It doesn't matter if it's an issue or not if they don't know it's an issue.

 

Believe me, I wrote them. But they already set up a standard answer that they send in return. And as I said above, most Europeans will not directly step up to G$. Some due to language issues, some because there is not much of a point wasting time writing to G$. But it is very likely, that there will be an alternative worked out by them sometime in the near or far future.

 

In this issue G$ just is very narrow minded and not very foreseeing.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

 

I've been advising that each and every one of you write Groundspeak individually and tell them that they are no longer getting any money from you until they address and resolve this issue. Those that have bothered to respond to me say that they won't do so because it won't do any good. Groundspeak will win out because of it's user's self defeatist attitude.

 

This lackey should have told you that he can't believe how many emails that they are getting and how it's the main topic of discussion around the water cooler at headquarters. Instead, he's asking you if it is still an issue. It doesn't matter if it's an issue or not if they don't know it's an issue.

 

Believe me, I wrote them. But they already set up a standard answer that they send in return. And as I said above, most Europeans will not directly step up to G$. Some due to language issues, some because there is not much of a point wasting time writing to G$. But it is very likely, that there will be an alternative worked out by them sometime in the near or far future.

 

In this issue G$ just is very narrow minded and not very foreseeing.

 

Really? Can someone post the standard reply when you explicitly tell them that you don't intend to renew you membership over this? All I've seen is the standard reply when you ask them for their VAT #.

 

I understand that the culture is different, but sometimes you simply have to speak up to defend your position.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

 

I've been advising that each and every one of you write Groundspeak individually and tell them that they are no longer getting any money from you until they address and resolve this issue. Those that have bothered to respond to me say that they won't do so because it won't do any good. Groundspeak will win out because of it's user's self defeatist attitude.

 

This lackey should have told you that he can't believe how many emails that they are getting and how it's the main topic of discussion around the water cooler at headquarters. Instead, he's asking you if it is still an issue. It doesn't matter if it's an issue or not if they don't know it's an issue.

 

Believe me, I wrote them. But they already set up a standard answer that they send in return. And as I said above, most Europeans will not directly step up to G$. Some due to language issues, some because there is not much of a point wasting time writing to G$. But it is very likely, that there will be an alternative worked out by them sometime in the near or far future.

 

In this issue G$ just is very narrow minded and not very foreseeing.

 

Really? Can someone post the standard reply when you explicitly tell them that you don't intend to renew you membership over this? All I've seen is the standard reply when you ask them for their VAT #.

 

I understand that the culture is different, but sometimes you simply have to speak up to defend your position.

 

Short and simple:

 

Hello Stefan,

 

Thank you for your feedback. I will forward your concerns.

 

Best Regards,

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Believe me, I wrote them. But they already set up a standard answer that they send in return.

 

There is a postal address somewhere, yes? I wonder whether actual letters arriving in an actual mailbox might have a slightly different impact possibly?

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Believe me, I wrote them. But they already set up a standard answer that they send in return.

 

There is a postal address somewhere, yes? I wonder whether actual letters arriving in an actual mailbox might have a slightly different impact possibly?

Yes, it will increase the landfill load.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

 

I've been advising that each and every one of you write Groundspeak individually and tell them that they are no longer getting any money from you until they address and resolve this issue. Those that have bothered to respond to me say that they won't do so because it won't do any good. Groundspeak will win out because of it's user's self defeatist attitude.

 

This lackey should have told you that he can't believe how many emails that they are getting and how it's the main topic of discussion around the water cooler at headquarters. Instead, he's asking you if it is still an issue. It doesn't matter if it's an issue or not if they don't know it's an issue.

When you have a 99.8% market share you don't have issues. You only have a minor annoyance. Until that number starts trending downward GS will not have issues. I really feel that until a viable alternative emerges or something radically changes in the game to make GS less relevant the attitudes will not change.

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I just recently had the chance to talk to a lackey in person. When I brought this topic up the first question was if this still is a topic within the EU. I guess they mean to sit this through, even though the lackey agreed that the communication has been bad about all this and should be improved.

 

 

I've been advising that each and every one of you write Groundspeak individually and tell them that they are no longer getting any money from you until they address and resolve this issue. Those that have bothered to respond to me say that they won't do so because it won't do any good. Groundspeak will win out because of it's user's self defeatist attitude.

 

This lackey should have told you that he can't believe how many emails that they are getting and how it's the main topic of discussion around the water cooler at headquarters. Instead, he's asking you if it is still an issue. It doesn't matter if it's an issue or not if they don't know it's an issue.

When you have a 99.8% market share you don't have issues. You only have a minor annoyance. Until that number starts trending downward GS will not have issues. I really feel that until a viable alternative emerges or something radically changes in the game to make GS less relevant the attitudes will not change.

 

The thing is geocaching isn't an essential activity. It's not as if we're forced to renew whatever Groundspeak decides to do and however often they decide to break their promises. It wouldn't be all that hard for people to let their premium membership lapse, turn PMO caches into regular caches, even archive their caches in protest at what's going on.

 

If people start doing that then sooner or later Groundspeak will either have to listen, or simply retreat to the borders of North America. If people start archiving their caches on one site and listing them on other sites it will make a double point and help the alternative sites at the same time.

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Bringing this back to the top of the page, even though Groundspeak are ignoring the issue.

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Bringing this back to the top of the page, even though Groundspeak are ignoring the issue.

 

It is sad that Bryan's commitment to better communication has come down to this.

Edited by geodarts

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Bringing this back to the top of the page, even though Groundspeak are ignoring the issue.

 

It is sad that Bryan's commitment to better communication has come down to this.

 

On a more positive note at least they haven't broken any promises made in the last week or so.

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I have been talking to many of my German caching friends and I haven't found one that is concerned about this. None of them have stated that the raise in prices for EU, or non-EU European countries, will have an effect on their decision to renew as a Premier Member. This very thread was brought up on the Homburg Germany Geocachers Facebook group and there was no response. No one cared.

 

To the ones I have talked with, this is a non issue because 30 Euro is still a small price to pay for the amount of enjoyment geocaching brings. Germans are almost fanatical about their hobbies and many spend thousands of Euros a year for them. Nowhere else in the world have I seen geocaches that are so cool as in Germany and Germans spend a lot of Euro on their hides to make them special or unique as can be seen by this week's Geocache of the Week. Paying an additional $10.00 is a non-issue to them. In all actuality the price of the PM is one of the lowest costs for this hobby whether it is 30 USD, BP, or EURO. Most cachers never even communicate with GS so the lack of communication on GS's part regarding the price increase is also a non-issue.

 

Based on this, I doubt the price raise, lack of GS communication, or not releasing the VAT # will have a noticeable effect on GS revenue from the EU or non-EU European countries that GS is charging the higher rate to.

Edited by Geo Jedimeister

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I have been talking to many of my German caching friends and I haven't found one that is concerned about this. None of them have stated that the raise in prices for EU, or non-EU European countries, will have an effect on their decision to renew as a Premier Member. This very thread was brought up on the Homburg Germany Geocachers Facebook group and there was no response. No one cared.

 

That's an interesting view, and I'm not qualified to say it's wrong - either in that facebook group or Germany as a whole.

 

Based on this, I doubt the price raise, lack of GS communication, or not releasing the VAT # will have a noticeable effect on GS revenue from the EU or non-EU European countries that GS is charging the higher rate to.

 

However, Germany is not the EU, and it's not sound to extrapolate a worldwide view from one group. It may be a small world, but cultural and societal differences are very real and confound marketing and businessmen the world over. As an Englishman who regularly does business with Germans and Americans, I can honestly say I've found both groups very different to each other, and each very different to the British. So please don't assume to include myself in your sweeping statements about the EU.

 

That's exactly how we got here in the first place - from an American company thinking that everywhere else is the same.

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Of course Germany is not the EU and I understand there are cultural differences among the European nations. I stand by my opinion that most European geocachers will care not about the price change, no prior notice, or lack of communication. Or if they do care, will still renew because they want the few benefits the PM brings.

 

This forum protest will have little effect on GS or Geocaching.

Edited by Geo Jedimeister

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Same experiences from CZ... Couple of angry geocachers, some of them say "no more to PM", but majority don't care... It looks that GS strategy works... Don't know if goor or bad...

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Of course Germany is not the EU and I understand there are cultural differences among the European nations. I stand by my opinion that most European geocachers will care not about the price change, no prior notice, or lack of communication. Or if they do care, will still renew because they want the few benefits the PM brings.

 

This forum protest will have little effect on GS or Geocaching.

 

Plus, how many know that they were told that their rate was locked as long as they continued to renew? Supposedly, my rate was locked in at $30 when I joined up in '05. I had no idea that it was locked until it came up in this thread.

 

I'm guessing that most people will see this as a simple increase, just like every other bill that they pay.

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Same experiences from CZ... Couple of angry geocachers, some of them say "no more to PM", but majority don't care... It looks that GS strategy works... Don't know if goor or bad...

 

I have never thought that the issues in this thread would ever generate enough of a reaction to cause Groundspeak to take notice. Apart from the VAT (which is a larger issue than Groundspeak), the price increase is around $1 to $4, depending on the country. That is not a substantial amount. And not enough people follow this forum to care about whether Groundspeak honored Bryan's pledge to improve communication or if they broke their contract not to raise rates for certain users.

 

The way that Groundspeak handled this issue does not give me any confidence in their openness or integrity. But it has been awhile since I trusted Groundspeak. For most people it will be enough that there is a cache waiting to be found. For me it might be enough that there are things in this game that remain in spite of Groundspeak. In either case, monopolies are powerful things.

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Same experiences from CZ... Couple of angry geocachers, some of them say "no more to PM", but majority don't care... It looks that GS strategy works... Don't know if goor or bad...

 

I have never thought that the issues in this thread would ever generate enough of a reaction to cause Groundspeak to take notice. Apart from the VAT (which is a larger issue than Groundspeak), the price increase is around $1 to $4, depending on the country. That is not a substantial amount. And not enough people follow this forum to care about whether Groundspeak honored Bryan's pledge to improve communication or if they broke their contract not to raise rates for certain users.

 

The way that Groundspeak handled this issue does not give me any confidence in their openness or integrity. But it has been awhile since I trusted Groundspeak. For most people it will be enough that there is a cache waiting to be found. For me it might be enough that there are things in this game that remain in spite of Groundspeak. In either case, monopolies are powerful things.

 

Good summary... I don't care one way or the other about $4 especially since it's easy enough for me to pay the US price rather than the UK price.

 

I do care about a company making a transition from being "one of the guys" to being just another faceless corporation whose promises mean precisely nothing. Having caches waiting to be found is a reason to renew a premium membership although for me the question over whether I will is a combination of finding Groundspeak has become just another faceless corporation that doesn't care about its customers and those caches waiting to be found becoming ever-more likely to be film pots behind signs.

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Same experiences from CZ... Couple of angry geocachers, some of them say "no more to PM", but majority don't care... It looks that GS strategy works... Don't know if goor or bad...

 

I have never thought that the issues in this thread would ever generate enough of a reaction to cause Groundspeak to take notice. Apart from the VAT (which is a larger issue than Groundspeak), the price increase is around $1 to $4, depending on the country. That is not a substantial amount. And not enough people follow this forum to care about whether Groundspeak honored Bryan's pledge to improve communication or if they broke their contract not to raise rates for certain users.

 

The way that Groundspeak handled this issue does not give me any confidence in their openness or integrity. But it has been awhile since I trusted Groundspeak. For most people it will be enough that there is a cache waiting to be found. For me it might be enough that there are things in this game that remain in spite of Groundspeak. In either case, monopolies are powerful things.

 

Good summary... I don't care one way or the other about $4 especially since it's easy enough for me to pay the US price rather than the UK price.

 

I do care about a company making a transition from being "one of the guys" to being just another faceless corporation whose promises mean precisely nothing. Having caches waiting to be found is a reason to renew a premium membership although for me the question over whether I will is a combination of finding Groundspeak has become just another faceless corporation that doesn't care about its customers and those caches waiting to be found becoming ever-more likely to be film pots behind signs.

 

I agree with you!

 

And to answer my previous question (subheadline of thread):

 

YES, G$ is discriminating against Europeans...

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I think there is one thing we can all believe. We all like Bananas! Even GS!

 

 

DeadHorse.jpg

Edited by Geo Jedimeister

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DeadHorse.jpg

 

I don't think Groundspeak and their dark attitudes are dead as this horse. Not the time to stop, I am afraid.

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GS won't die. Maybe their attitude will change over time if there is ever some real competition but that won't happen for a long time. By then everyone will have forgotten about this.

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GS won't die. Maybe their attitude will change over time if there is ever some real competition but that won't happen for a long time. By then everyone will have forgotten about this.

 

I must admit I'm just curious to know whether Bryan's commitment to better communication is going to turn into anything more than another virtual shrug and promise to make better mistakes tomorrow.

 

Groundspeak seem to be getting better at making mistakes, although I don't know that I'd call anything they do recently a better mistake.

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I do care about a company making a transition from being "one of the guys" to being just another faceless corporation whose promises mean precisely nothing. Having caches waiting to be found is a reason to renew a premium membership although for me the question over whether I will is a combination of finding Groundspeak has become just another faceless corporation that doesn't care about its customers and those caches waiting to be found becoming ever-more likely to be film pots behind signs.

 

Making a transition? I see we both found out about this little game about the same time. We both became active cachers about the same time. Our find rates and forum participation are not all that different. So you know as well as I do this "transition" you mention has been ongoing for a long time. Jeremy hasn't been "one of the guys" for several years. You would think that with all the extra time he has now, since he quit wasting it communicating with us here in the Forum, that Groundspeak would be a model corporation. I wonder what went wrong?

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I do care about a company making a transition from being "one of the guys" to being just another faceless corporation whose promises mean precisely nothing. Having caches waiting to be found is a reason to renew a premium membership although for me the question over whether I will is a combination of finding Groundspeak has become just another faceless corporation that doesn't care about its customers and those caches waiting to be found becoming ever-more likely to be film pots behind signs.

 

Making a transition? I see we both found out about this little game about the same time. We both became active cachers about the same time. Our find rates and forum participation are not all that different. So you know as well as I do this "transition" you mention has been ongoing for a long time. Jeremy hasn't been "one of the guys" for several years. You would think that with all the extra time he has now, since he quit wasting it communicating with us here in the Forum, that Groundspeak would be a model corporation. I wonder what went wrong?

 

I rather got the impression that until fairly recently Groundspeak at least pretended to listen to us. Now they aren't even pretending to listen, which is a shame.

 

But as you say since they obviously have better things to do than bother with customer concerns one might have thought they could have provided some useful new functionality to people who don't feel the urge to "like" a cache within a nanosecond of finding it.

 

Maybe old fashioned geocachers like me who use a GPS rather than a cellphone and wait to log caches until after we get home just aren't the target market any more. It's a shame in a way but I feel more and more inclined to leave geocaching to those who want to find film pots with their iThingumy and log it the moment they find it and maybe try some of the other sites. I guess if people pay for a mobile app the people behind the app don't care if they get bored of the game after a few months, by then someone else will have bought the app and taken their place.

 

There's enough interesting ideas in here that are apparently not worthy of Groundspeak's attention that anyone with the expertise and inclination could set up quite a well featured competitor to geocaching.com - maybe that will be one of the better mistakes they make tomorrow.

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Well, as far as the VAT# goes, that's a pretty easy one to solve. Someone from the EU simply needs to purchase a membership and as per EU law, their VAT# should be on the final invoice.

 

I do invoicing for my company in the EU and have just gone through the headache of making invoices EU compliant.

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Well, as far as the VAT# goes, that's a pretty easy one to solve. Someone from the EU simply needs to purchase a membership and as per EU law, their VAT# should be on the final invoice.

 

I do invoicing for my company in the EU and have just gone through the headache of making invoices EU compliant.

 

It looks pretty easy for everyone except G$.

 

I mailed them explaining that VAT registered EU members van reclaim VAT but they need an invoice stating net price, VAT amount and VAT number. The first time they refused to give this info as their "experts" told them they don't gave to make their VAT number public, when I insisted they just didn't reply.

 

I can only think about one reason not to give out this VAT info ... can you?? :rolleyes:

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