Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 39
Tschakko

Different prices of Premium Membership

Recommended Posts

Digital content, like subscriptions, consumed in the EU is subject to VAT. I'm sorry, but we will not be posting our EU VAT registration.

 

In UK If I pay VAT then the person I'm paying it to MUST supply the VAT number and a VAT receipt if requested. They also need to pay the VAT collected to the UK government.

 

So, "Not suppling the VAT number" is not good enough.

Share this post


Link to post

I do not really know much about taxes and international business relationships,

but I know that it's a very very strange coincidence that the fee in U.S. and Europe

should exactly be the same amount except the Currency, or as we like to say in Germany

 

"Ein Schelm wer böses dabei denkt"

 

And: Companies who are willing to offer a good customer service make an announcement

before increasing the prices by 30%.

Share this post


Link to post

This is definitely all a learning curve for us, and we apologize for the confusion. Our management has a meeting planned to discuss all of this and Bryan will be posting this afternoon in answer to your questions. Please bear with us during this transitional time.

 

I am still waiting on the answers from yesterdays meeting here...

 

It´s just so easy to decide what would be the right thing to do.

 

1. Set a basic price before VAT equal for everyone (EU, US, Timbuctu, etc.) IMPORTANT: make it sufficient so you can cover your costs and even earn some money with it too.

2. Charge everyone the proper VAT that´s applying for them individually

3. Give the customer the choice to be charged in $ or local currencies

4. Communicate it in a nice, open and honest way

 

After these easy to accomplish steps everything will be fine

Share this post


Link to post

So nice to be an American living in Europe for 20 years and get to pay in USD and pay NO TAX. I don't really mean this my European geocaching brothers and sisters. I think you are getting a raw deal and it sucks to be so blatantly lied to.

Share this post


Link to post

I hope, that the meeting will end with

1) an apology for the confusing and wrong informations

2) an apology for deleting posts at facebook

3) giving us correct informations

4) and if necessary to increase the Premium-Membership-Price (but worldwide! and not only for special countries.

 

If there are reasons, to increase the price, o.k. But please don´t think europeans are stupid, just because they are going in the woods to look for tupperware :-)

Edited by Chapeman

Share this post


Link to post

So nice to be an American living in Europe for 20 years and get to pay in USD and pay NO TAX. I don't really mean this my European geocaching brothers and sisters. I think you are getting a raw deal and it sucks to be so blatantly lied to.

 

Thanks for your solidarity :-)

Share this post


Link to post

Digital content, like subscriptions, consumed in the EU is subject to VAT. I'm sorry, but we will not be posting our EU VAT registration.

 

You'd better be prepared to provide a full VAT invoice to anyone who requests it, which will include your VAT registration number. Otherwise be prepared for a tidal wave of accusations that you're increasing your price and using VAT as an excuse.

Share this post


Link to post

Digital content, like subscriptions, consumed in the EU is subject to VAT. I'm sorry, but we will not be posting our EU VAT registration.

 

In UK If I pay VAT then the person I'm paying it to MUST supply the VAT number and a VAT receipt if requested. They also need to pay the VAT collected to the UK government.

 

So, "Not suppling the VAT number" is not good enough.

 

Do companies that operate outside the EU even need to charge VAT in the first place? No other US company I've ever dealt with has charged me VAT, except when I've been dealing with their European branch.

 

Looks like GS has managed to upset vast numbers of international users in a single fell swoop. Nice one guys.

 

ETA: I hope Groundspeak has also got some means of not charging VAT on transactions within Europe to entities that have their own VAT registration number.

Edited by team tisri

Share this post


Link to post

Beach_hut is correct; the VAT is something that the EU requires, not something that we have imposed. Yes, the change has led to a price increase overseas, and was decided on to allow for a buffer with ever-changing exchange rates and the like. As for where the extra £1.44 goes at this time, those decisions are made above my pay grade! :) In any case, if you currently have a recurring Geocaching Premium Membership, we will honor the price with which you signed up.

 

 

They had to pay the VAT the last 10 years to the governments too, so this is not the reason. It´s a company, nothing more, you can´t tell me they gifted the VAT to us for 10 years.

 

I'm sorry to say, but that is exactly the case. We have been working with the EU to come into compliance and this change reflects that effort.

 

You are definitely correct, however, that this could have been communicated much better, and for that we are sorry. The team is discussing ways to do better as I type this.

 

Just out if interest, if Groundspeak is a US based company with premises in the US and no premises in the EU at all, what is the EU going to do if Groundspeak were merely to say that European laws do not apply to a US company and that, more or less, the EU could get stuffed?

Share this post


Link to post

This is definitely all a learning curve for us, and we apologize for the confusion. Our management has a meeting planned to discuss all of this and Bryan will be posting this afternoon in answer to your questions. Please bear with us during this transitional time.

 

With respect, this kind of reply is just comical. Are you seriously saying you've decided you have to charge VAT to European customers, introduced a system to charge VAT, decided not to disclose your VAT registration details, then when told such action is illegal decided to say it's all a learning curve?

 

When I started my company I was expected to get things like VAT right from the beginning. If I get a VAT audit I don't get to shrug and tell the nice men from the tax office that I screwed it all up but "it's a learning curve".

 

Bottom line - if you are required to charge VAT then get it right and make sure you comply with European law before you implement changes. If you are using VAT as a smokescreen for a price increase then quit playing games and be honest that you want to put the price up.

 

Do you have any idea just how utterly incompetent this makes the entire organisation look?

Share this post


Link to post

This is definitely all a learning curve for us, and we apologize for the confusion. Our management has a meeting planned to discuss all of this and Bryan will be posting this afternoon in answer to your questions. Please bear with us during this transitional time.

 

It amazes me that you've blundered into this and have been surprised at the outcome.

 

If the learning curve you're talking about is the legality of the VAT situation in the EU then it is astonishing that you have implemented something without being fully aware of the tax/legal requirements, and are then learning from comments from laymen on the forums. If this is the case then you need to employ a decent tax lawyer.

 

If the learning curve you're talking about is the reaction of your PAYING CUSTOMERS to this increase, then I have to ask have you not learned anything from the reaction to other policy changes in the past? Two that spring to mind being the Google maps fiasco, and dropping challenges. Groundspeak seems to treat geocaching.com as their own private website that a few other people occasionally look at, you repeatedly fail to inform your customers about changes to the way you run it, and usually take no notice of their wishes with regard to any changes you do implement. Someone in the company needs to do some proper customer service training.

 

I know you've been deleting comments on this from your facebook page, but I can tell you it's a very hot topic of conversation all over facebook, and other forums, and you're going to lose paying members if the charges stay as they are!

Share this post


Link to post

I do wish he had chosen to say something other than learning curve. :(

 

Don't worry, next time you totally screw something up you can just shrug and say "It's a groundspeak for me" :)

Edited by team tisri

Share this post


Link to post

 

Just out if interest, if Groundspeak is a US based company with premises in the US and no premises in the EU at all, what is the EU going to do if Groundspeak were merely to say that European laws do not apply to a US company and that, more or less, the EU could get stuffed?

 

I guess the governments of the US and the european Countries would be working this out together. I am quite sure, the US will enforce the EU VAT on their companies as would the EU do on theirs with US charges.

Share this post


Link to post

OK, whilst everyone has a fair point about the need to disclose a VAT number, who here is going to declare it on their tax returns? It's not exactly a business expense.

Share this post


Link to post

I do wish he had chosen to say something other than learning curve. :(

 

You could change your caching name to "liable for VAT"? :P

Share this post


Link to post

OK, whilst everyone has a fair point about the need to disclose a VAT number, who here is going to declare it on their tax returns? It's not exactly a business expense.

 

I guess there is only a few that will do so. The thing about this number is, that people just ain´t buying the VAT-excuse. This number would be a kind of proof that there is some truth to it.

Share this post


Link to post

OK, whilst everyone has a fair point about the need to disclose a VAT number, who here is going to declare it on their tax returns? It's not exactly a business expense.

I guess that depends on what your business is. I can think of a few ways of making it a business expense.

Share this post


Link to post

OK, whilst everyone has a fair point about the need to disclose a VAT number, who here is going to declare it on their tax returns? It's not exactly a business expense.

 

I am not opposed to paying VAT and other taxes where I'm required to by law, I enjoy numerous benefits my government provides for me with this money and by and large I'm a good citizen, but when I pay that tax I need to be sure it's ending up with that government, not illegally being shuffled off elsewhere. The system of VAT registration and numbers is designed to allow me to do exactly that. If somebody charges me vat and doesn't provide a vat registration number, I will be reporting them to customs and excise.

 

There is only one reason that I can think of to withhold a VAT registration number, and I've been considering this all evening, and that is because there isn't one. As I've posted before, what's been said in here by a representative of Groundspeak is illegal. As a customer who pays and enjoys a service provided by Groundspeak, I'd rather they weren't dragged through the courts because when that happens, focus tends to shift away from what I want them to concentrate on - running the site.

 

I'm choosing to hopefully believe this is just simple incompetence and miscommunication rather than fraud, and allowing Groundspeak a chance to react to these comments. I expect something to change, either a retraction of this entire claim for VAT, or a clarification and clarity. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if poor moun10bike was made a scapegoat and discredited as speaking out of turn. (Which if so, and he's not toed the company line, why wasn't he informed and trained?)

 

I am staggered that a company that has made quite a lot of money from its customers (tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of premium members at $30us a year? That mounts up.) - doesn't apparently understand basic tax law in the areas it operates in or has the nous to consult a tax accountant or tax lawyer before making changes that could get it into quite serious legal difficulties.

 

It's astonishing, it really is.

 

Let me buy your company. I'd like to run it for a while. :)

Share this post


Link to post

OK, whilst everyone has a fair point about the need to disclose a VAT number, who here is going to declare it on their tax returns? It's not exactly a business expense.

 

I am not opposed to paying VAT and other taxes where I'm required to by law, I enjoy numerous benefits my government provides for me with this money and by and large I'm a good citizen, but when I pay that tax I need to be sure it's ending up with that government, not illegally being shuffled off elsewhere. The system of VAT registration and numbers is designed to allow me to do exactly that. If somebody charges me vat and doesn't provide a vat registration number, I will be reporting them to customs and excise.

 

There is only one reason that I can think of to withhold a VAT registration number, and I've been considering this all evening, and that is because there isn't one. As I've posted before, what's been said in here by a representative of Groundspeak is illegal. As a customer who pays and enjoys a service provided by Groundspeak, I'd rather they weren't dragged through the courts because when that happens, focus tends to shift away from what I want them to concentrate on - running the site.

 

I'm choosing to hopefully believe this is just simple incompetence and miscommunication rather than fraud, and allowing Groundspeak a chance to react to these comments. I expect something to change, either a retraction of this entire claim for VAT, or a clarification and clarity. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if poor moun10bike was made a scapegoat and discredited as speaking out of turn. (Which if so, and he's not toed the company line, why wasn't he informed and trained?)

 

I am staggered that a company that has made quite a lot of money from its customers (tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of premium members at $30us a year? That mounts up.) - doesn't apparently understand basic tax law in the areas it operates in or has the nous to consult a tax accountant or tax lawyer before making changes that could get it into quite serious legal difficulties.

 

It's astonishing, it really is.

 

Let me buy your company. I'd like to run it for a while. :)

 

like.png

Share this post


Link to post

I'm once again baffled by the amateurism of the company Groundspeak.

You keep goofing things up time after time up to a point where it start looking like you're doing it intentionally!

Really guys: get yourselves a good communications expert, a customer satisfaction expert, and well... Maybe hire a database expert too...

Seriously!

Share this post


Link to post

I'm once again baffled by the amateurism of the company Groundspeak.

You keep goofing things up time after time up to a point where it start looking like you're doing it intentionally!

Really guys: get yourselves a good communications expert, a customer satisfaction expert, and well... Maybe hire a database expert too...

Seriously!

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This site started as a hobby site for hobbyists and is still run like one. TPTB either do not realize they have grown beyond that into a global business serving a broad and growing customer base or they know it but just don't have (or don't care to acquire) the level of business savvy required to run it as such.

Share this post


Link to post

OK, whilst everyone has a fair point about the need to disclose a VAT number, who here is going to declare it on their tax returns? It's not exactly a business expense.

 

For most people it won't be, but that doesn't change the rules regarding disclosure of a VAT number. When I buy things as an individual I still get an itemised VAT receipt; when I buy things through my business I require an itemised VAT receipt.

 

I'm sure people who write GSAK and similar software would be perfectly justified in charging a premium membership as a business expense.

Share this post


Link to post

 

Just out if interest, if Groundspeak is a US based company with premises in the US and no premises in the EU at all, what is the EU going to do if Groundspeak were merely to say that European laws do not apply to a US company and that, more or less, the EU could get stuffed?

 

I guess the governments of the US and the european Countries would be working this out together. I am quite sure, the US will enforce the EU VAT on their companies as would the EU do on theirs with US charges.

 

It's possible but frankly it seems unlikely. Almost as unlikely, in fact, as a company that claims to be "working with the EU to ensure compliance" apparently remaining blissfully unaware of things like, you know, compliance.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm just curious to see how many Europeans will decide not to renew their premium membership over a fiasco like this, and how many will mysteriously move to the US. Especially if all that is needed is a US address.

 

I gather there's quite a big house that's coloured white in Washington DC. I'm sure the address isn't too hard to find.

Share this post


Link to post

Ok to issue invoices with VAT but no VAT number is illegal. First port of call is the Customs and Excise - believe me they have more power than the courts and the lawyers. I have seen grown men cry when being audited by the VAT Man!

 

Explain your situation. I am assuming that you have paid "VAT" to this company and want it returned. Let the C & E do some of the work. If their lawyers are not giving out VAT numbers when requested - they are breaking the law as well.

Share this post


Link to post

We could always get the national press to do a feature on how this increasingly popular hobby is now cashing in on Rip Off Britain. There are also plenty of consumer programmes on TV who could look into this, and compare Groundspeak to other organisations which exist for caching (and other unmentionable hi tech hobbies).

 

If Grounspeak continue to alienate there foreign customers, I'm sure the other caching organisations will capitalise on this, and we just might see some real competition.

 

I don't wish to see GS withdraw from Europe, but I've not had a payrise for the last 8 years (like many others over here), so can not afford the planned increase. I've already made cutbacks on too many hobbies as it is to try and pay for essentials.

Share this post


Link to post

As I can not find Groundspeak registered with companies house I suspect They are not registered company here and not allowed to collect VAT or they are registered under a different name in the UK. If they are THEY MUST provide a VAT number and should be paying the VAT to the UK treasurer, Claiming vat to add to profits is illegal and immoral !

the only reason I can see that Groundspeak is not providing true information is they have messed up and trying to cover up!!!

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks to everyone for their feedback on this topic.

 

First, I’d like to apologize for the lack of clear and proactive communication. You deserve better and we’ll do our best to provide clear information more proactively in the future.

 

As of April 17th, Groundspeak is collecting and remitting VAT on sales of Premium Memberships within the EU. Where applicable, receipts for PM payments will include the statement “VAT Inclusive” going forward. We believe this is the legal requirement we are required to meet. We are registered for VAT via the U.K. under the special scheme for non-EU Businesses and we have an EU Vat Registration Number. We are currently researching whether is it OK for us to provide this number publicly. We do not want to publish the registration number if it is not permitted or if it would cause other issues. For those who question whether we are in fact registered, the best I can do now is to give you my word that it is true. If we can provide more, we will.

 

Because of the wide range of VAT rates throughout Europe and the United Kingdom, and also for ease of explanation on the site, we settled on one price for all EU and UK customers: 29,99 euros and 24,99 pounds, respectively.

 

With a static $ PM charge, European customers have historically held the risk of currency fluctuations. Each year of Premium Membership (for non-recurring payments) would be charged at a rate that depends on currency fluctuations. Going forward, by presenting the fees in foreign currencies, Groundspeak will bear the risk of currency fluctuation and customers will pay the same price year after year, should they choose to remain Premium Members. We recognize that this is currently more than $30 after VAT and does include additional revenue to cover associated costs (such as currency conversion fees) and to hedge against future currency fluctuations.

 

We have always believed that the value of a Premium Membership is fair and, ultimately, the customers will decide if this is correct. Although we have never adjusted our prices in the past, with the new required change to include the corresponding VAT charge that we will be remitting to the EU, we continue to believe that the price is reasonable for the service provided. Some of you will agree and some of you will disagree. Regardless, we are making our very best efforts to deliver value for the cost and, as you know, your support is what keeps the website, mobile applications and company going forward.

Share this post


Link to post

Bryan, with all due respect, but that doesn't entirely work as you described. Take, for instance, me. I'm Polish. Poland is a EU member. Our currency is PLN. Not USD, not EUR, not GBP. We anyway have to cover the currency conversion costs, so that still leaves us with a bit of a loss.

It's not a matter of not being able to pay additional few EUR on top of the price + VAT, but it just doesn't seem right. I know, there aren't too many of PMs in Poland, but I guess that shouldn't make any difference in a transparent partnership world.

Thanks for your official reply though, it's not 100% satisfying, but let's see how it goes. Our win is the game, let's see what our loss cause in the future.

Proactive communication in the future will be more than appreciated, we really don't want to capture such things ourselves.

All the best!

Edited by wantsky

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you for a more concise reply.

I really think you need to have a lawyer who understands EU/UK VAT look at this soon, I feel that there is no reason to pay or take any VAT in the UK, here is a snippet from HMRC website,

Items not covered by VAT

There are some items that aren't covered by VAT. These items are either:

exempt

outside the scope of VAT

Exempt items

Some items are exempt from VAT because the law says they mustn't have any VAT charged on them. Items that are exempt include the following:

insurance

providing credit

education and training, if certain conditions are met

fundraising events by charities, if certain conditions are met

membership subscriptions, if certain conditions are met

most services provided by doctors and dentists

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks to everyone for their feedback on this topic.

 

First, I’d like to apologize for the lack of clear and proactive communication. You deserve better and we’ll do our best to provide clear information more proactively in the future.

 

As of April 17th, Groundspeak is collecting and remitting VAT on sales of Premium Memberships within the EU. Where applicable, receipts for PM payments will include the statement “VAT Inclusive” going forward. We believe this is the legal requirement we are required to meet. We are registered for VAT via the U.K. under the special scheme for non-EU Businesses and we have an EU Vat Registration Number. We are currently researching whether is it OK for us to provide this number publicly. We do not want to publish the registration number if it is not permitted or if it would cause other issues. For those who question whether we are in fact registered, the best I can do now is to give you my word that it is true. If we can provide more, we will.

 

Hard to see why it couldn't be publicly quoted, some companies list it on their web site and the minute you list it on a single invoice then whoever has the invoice can publish it themselves.

 

To give you an example, here's the "Company information" page on the Cotswold's web site. It shows their registered office, email address, company registration number and VAT registration number:

 

http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/company-information

 

Because of the wide range of VAT rates throughout Europe and the United Kingdom, and also for ease of explanation on the site, we settled on one price for all EU and UK customers: 29,99 euros and 24,99 pounds, respectively.

 

Whatever the reasoning you can look forward to lots of Europeans looking for ways to pay in dollars.

 

With a static $ PM charge, European customers have historically held the risk of currency fluctuations. Each year of Premium Membership (for non-recurring payments) would be charged at a rate that depends on currency fluctuations. Going forward, by presenting the fees in foreign currencies, Groundspeak will bear the risk of currency fluctuation and customers will pay the same price year after year, should they choose to remain Premium Members. We recognize that this is currently more than $30 after VAT and does include additional revenue to cover associated costs (such as currency conversion fees) and to hedge against future currency fluctuations.

 

This is all well and good but does read very much like "we're not sure about currencies so to save you the vagaries of whether $30 will work out to be £18 or £22 we'll just charge you £25 so you know what you'll be paying".

 

Personally I've always accepted that when I do business with a US firm the price is in dollars, and the responsibility for paying in dollars is with me. So I either use PayPal or a dollar denominated bank account. I prefer to know what the underlying price is going to be so I can decide for myself the best way of paying in a foreign currency rather than having someone else apply an exchange rate of their own choosing, which I know is going to be rounded in their favour rather than mine.

Share this post


Link to post

sorry, forgot to mention

Organisation like the Scouts, Cubs, Guides , Schools and many others have memberships with Groundspeak, All of which will also claim VAT back as they do not have to pay it. This is why VAT number must be shown on any invoice. With out it it's worthless to them.

There is nothing people can do with your number, its not a secret, every company letter i send has it printed on the bottom .

another snippet

VAT invoices: what they must show

If you are registered for VAT, then whenever you supply goods or services to someone else who is also registered for VAT you must give them a VAT invoice.

look here for yourselves, great resource

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/charging/vat-invoices.htm

 

To break the Law unknowingly is a defense, to do it knowingly is expensive :)

 

Please note, I love caching and only trying to help.

Edited by The Hill's

Share this post


Link to post

Groundspeak *really* need to sort out the fine print on this, why would someone in say, Germany have to pay UK VAT? Our UK trading standards laws are harsh, you absolutely can not say it's for VAT if it's over 20% here, you can say additional charges though, which does pose the question why are we paying additional charges when people paying in $ are not. I don't think this is a scam, I think this is someone not thinking this through. Let us decide if we want to pay conversion fees, as it happens it's not going to make any difference when it comes to the UK as, as I said, we don't have the Euro so it will be converted anyway.

 

Europe have been burned hard by this practice of just swapping the $ over to £ or E, gaming companies do it to us all the time (worst example was Rock band that went $199 to £199) and I can safely say that everyone here is sick to the back teeth of hearing excuses about "shipping costs" and "VAT" over it.

Share this post


Link to post

As we see we see nothing. They have chosen to go this way and they will do so till the very end. Sorry to say, but there is no learning curve at all. Further more these official words are a piece of c... and just the same as before in nicer words.

 

Furthermore: Still no answer to the question: Is there already a US State or Federal VAT included in the original 29.99$?

 

I am pretty sure officials here will be curious to learn, that German citizens are paying UK VAT. This is not the way the VAT of a German was supposed to go!

Share this post


Link to post

Furthermore: Still no answer to the question: Is there already a US State or Federal VAT included in the original 29.99$?

 

No, because that's not the way sales tax generally works in the US. We have to charge sales tax on any memberships sold to Washington State residents only. On top of that is any applicable county sales tax. In Seattle, where Groundspeak resides, an annual premium membership runs $32.84.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

And, as a reminder - please avoid use of profanity, even if obscured. You are free to post your grievances, but only respectfully and in a family-friendly manner.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks to everyone for their feedback on this topic.

 

First, I’d like to apologize for the lack of clear and proactive communication. You deserve better and we’ll do our best to provide clear information more proactively in the future.

Hopefully...

As of April 17th, Groundspeak is collecting and remitting VAT on sales of Premium Memberships within the EU. Where applicable, receipts for PM payments will include the statement “VAT Inclusive” going forward. We believe this is the legal requirement we are required to meet. We are registered for VAT via the U.K. under the special scheme for non-EU Businesses and we have an EU Vat Registration Number. We are currently researching whether is it OK for us to provide this number publicly. We do not want to publish the registration number if it is not permitted or if it would cause other issues. For those who question whether we are in fact registered, the best I can do now is to give you my word that it is true. If we can provide more, we will.

Well, did not you say you already did so ever since 2003 and gifted the VAT to us?

Because of the wide range of VAT rates throughout Europe and the United Kingdom, and also for ease of explanation on the site, we settled on one price for all EU and UK customers: 29,99 euros and 24,99 pounds, respectively.

Where is there a problem to just say "29.99$ plus VAT"? Does not that seem easy enough?

With a static $ PM charge, European customers have historically held the risk of currency fluctuations. Each year of Premium Membership (for non-recurring payments) would be charged at a rate that depends on currency fluctuations. Going forward, by presenting the fees in foreign currencies, Groundspeak will bear the risk of currency fluctuation and customers will pay the same price year after year, should they choose to remain Premium Members. We recognize that this is currently more than $30 after VAT and does include additional revenue to cover associated costs (such as currency conversion fees) and to hedge against future currency fluctuations.

I do not want this risk taken from me! Give us the choice to pay in Dollars or Euros or whatever currency is applicable. Furthermore you are charging some countries with € that do not even have the €. So this argument is sort of more than lame!

We have always believed that the value of a Premium Membership is fair and, ultimately, the customers will decide if this is correct. Although we have never adjusted our prices in the past, with the new required change to include the corresponding VAT charge that we will be remitting to the EU, we continue to believe that the price is reasonable for the service provided. Some of you will agree and some of you will disagree. Regardless, we are making our very best efforts to deliver value for the cost and, as you know, your support is what keeps the website, mobile applications and company going forward.

 

If a higher price is reasonable never has been the question! That you guys just put this price on Europeans has been in question and still is!

 

Sorry, but all this is nothing more than excuses, because there is no convincing reason behind it.

Share this post


Link to post

And, as a reminder - please avoid use of profanity, even if obscured. You are free to post your grievances, but only respectfully and in a family-friendly manner.

 

I am sorry, I shall do so. Even though Groundspeak is lacking the respect to European cachers just as we speak.

 

edited for misspelling...

Edited by Tschakko

Share this post


Link to post

No, there is no US or Federal VAT on the USD price. I really wonder what would be happening if the USD was stronger then the Euro or GBP. What if 29.00 Euro only equaled $15.00. Will they then change the price to 60 Euro? It could very well happen someday.

 

The price should be in USD for everyone. Plain and simple. Many of my European friends do business with American companies and always pay in dollars. They pay their VAT and Customs when the items arrives. I understand this is impossible with digital product but what is the EU gonna do? Block the Geocaching.com website? Europe is not China.

 

It is ludicrous that they are standing by their statement of not being sure if they can release their VAT registration number. Really makes a person wonder if they actually have one. But I'll bet they will have one by the end of next week. Is there anyway to find out when a VAT number was issued?

Share this post


Link to post

It is ludicrous that they are standing by their statement of not being sure if they can release their VAT registration number. Really makes a person wonder if they actually have one. But I'll bet they will have one by the end of next week. Is there anyway to find out when a VAT number was issued?

 

I am not sure if you can find out when it has been issued. But the VAT officials can look into it and also see if there have been payments to them ever since 2003.

Share this post


Link to post

Furthermore: Still no answer to the question: Is there already a US State or Federal VAT included in the original 29.99$?

 

No, because that's not the way sales tax generally works in the US. We have to charge sales tax on any memberships sold to Washington State residents only. On top of that is any applicable county sales tax. In Seattle, where Groundspeak resides, an annual premium membership runs $32.84.

 

So why can´t you just do the same to Europeans with the VAT level that applies?

Share this post


Link to post

I'm just curious to see how many Europeans will decide not to renew their premium membership over a fiasco like this, and how many will mysteriously move to the US. Especially if all that is needed is a US address.

 

I gather there's quite a big house that's coloured white in Washington DC. I'm sure the address isn't too hard to find.

 

Use 1060 W, Addison, Chicago Illinois like Jake and Elwood Blues did.

Edited by Geo Jedimeister

Share this post


Link to post

Dear Jerry, thanks for your statement. Even if I trust your words, what is the reason why all recurring accounts will still persist on 30$ annual fee? Are these accounts out of any tax calculation, independent where they're living?

Share this post


Link to post

I guess I have got an answer to my previous question: Discrimination of Europeans?

 

"YES, WE CAN!"

 

Reasons:

- They have the LIBERTY to do so

- They are more EQUAL than others

 

edited for misspellings

Edited by Tschakko

Share this post


Link to post

Dear Brian, your comment is a slap in the face for every clear thinking european.

 

1. are there now VAT in all the other countries around the world?

2. to communicate clearly, it would be nice to hear, if the price vor USA is with VAT or not?

3. WE HAVE the problem of currency fluctuation and not you (you get your 30$ everytime or does this change?)If Euro/USD will change, do you reduce the Euro-Price?

 

Your arguments are incredible and that you still not know, if you have to show your registration-No shows a big lack of professionalism.

 

This is not a clear and good answer. It is a waisting of time and still a bad joke.

Share this post


Link to post

If we would hide our caches, like you handle this problem, no Reviewer would give its o.k.

 

They always will tell us, please be sure, that your cache is legal and is consistent with the law.

 

And you have to proof, if you need to show your registrationno. ???

Share this post


Link to post

Bryan, let me add my .2 cent to this discussion, even if i usually doesnt participate in such discussions i have the feeling to do so here.

 

as working since years in a global team based here in Frankfurt, Germany i know the cultural AND Tax differences relativly well.

We all agree that Groundspeak is a company and want to make profit - no doubt.

 

With the current difference from Dollar to EURO ( around 1.31 to 1) 29.99 EURO are around 10 Dollar more then i paid since the last 6 years ( i am a happy premium member since 2007)

I understand that VAT might be a valid point for you to raise the price a bit but if in Germany the feeling starts that "we" are customers economy class (and the US first class)

this might become an issue for Groundspeak.

Just want you to understand the cultural differences a bit. if we think that we are not treated the same way then other customers it might become a big deal.

as you can see during this discussion it already has started.

we dont care about some Euros more to pay (at least the majority, i would guess) but it is the differnce between us and the other country(s).

 

maybe reducing to 27.99 or something could be the solution to stop this discussion.

 

Anyhow - a great weekend to you guys in Seattle and let´s see if that can be fixed.

 

Cheers, Marc

Share this post


Link to post

I understand that VAT might be a valid point for you to raise the price a bit but if in Germany the feeling starts that "we" are customers economy class (and the US first class)

this might become an issue for Groundspeak.

Just want you to understand the cultural differences a bit. if we think that we are not treated the same way then other customers it might become a big deal.

as you can see during this discussion it already has started.

we dont care about some Euros more to pay (at least the majority, i would guess) but it is the differnce between us and the other country(s).

 

Thats the main point and needs a clear communication. We are not against more Euros, we are against being treated like that (we want to make things easier for you, therefore we increase the prices for 30%) ...

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 39

×