Restricted caches

[+JustJackMN]

I am really tired of seeing challenge caches that only about 5 per cent of cachers will ever qualify for. I am going to put out some that will make it easier for the occasional cacher to qualify. What I also want to do is put out caches that are restricted to those who don't have many finds, say you have to have less than 3000 finds to be able to log as found. Is this possible? I don't think it is any different from premium members only caches. Thanks

[+Isonzo Karst]

What I also want to do is put out caches that are restricted to those who don't have many finds, say you have to have less than 3000 finds to be able to log as found. Is this possible?

 

No, it's not possible to require less than 3000 finds. "All challenge caches must be in the affirmative and require that something be accomplished". Requiring someone who has more than 3000 finds to stop geocaching and/or delete previous finds to qualify for your challenge is hardly affirmative.

 

Here's a link to the challenge caches article, Challenge Caches

[+The A-Team]

You might want to read through the challenge cache guidelines. Point 3 is:

A Challenge cache must avoid undue restrictions.

I'm confused. Why would you want to prevent cachers with more than a certain number of finds from participating? If they can qualify, why prevent them from logging it? Preventing them from logging it wouldn't benefit anyone, and would simply be a punishment for those who are most addicted to this game.

 

Even if a reviewer published it (which I seriously doubt would ever happen), you'd very quickly become very unpopular.

[+cerberus1]

I don't think it'll pass a reviewer.

#6 in challenge guidelines reads:

"6.One should not have to 'give up' finding other caches to achieve a challenge cache's requirements."

[+L0ne.R]

I am really tired of seeing challenge caches that only about 5 per cent of cachers will ever qualify for.

 

I too don't like that this type of ALR is sanctioned. I would like to see GS change the rules so that they can be logged by anyone who signs the physical log and anyone else who meets the challenge gets another form of recognition - perhaps a virtual badge or souvenir or something added to their GC statistics.

[+T.D.M.22]

I am really tired of seeing challenge caches that only about 5 per cent of cachers will ever qualify for. I am going to put out some that will make it easier for the occasional cacher to qualify. What I also want to do is put out caches that are restricted to those who don't have many finds, say you have to have less than 3000 finds to be able to log as found. Is this possible? I don't think it is any different from premium members only caches. Thanks

The difference is that non premium members can still log premium member only caches.

 

So what you are saying is if I have 1000 finds and have been caching for 10 years I cant do your challenge, but if I 500 finds in 6 months I can? That's the same ratio(1000 per year) In my city I can do 400 power trail finds in 2 days and that somehow makes me more experienced(even though those extra 400 caches are exactly the same and don't give much experience) 3000 finds is not a lot-that's only 300 finds per year if you've been caching 10 years. And anyway What's to stop me from making a new account and doing your challenge? or even doing that then re-logging all my old finds?

[+BlueDeuce]

I am really tired of seeing challenge caches that only about 5 per cent of cachers will ever qualify for. I am going to put out some that will make it easier for the occasional cacher to qualify. What I also want to do is put out caches that are restricted to those who don't have many finds, say you have to have less than 3000 finds to be able to log as found. Is this possible? I don't think it is any different from premium members only caches. Thanks

 

Having a little trouble claiming those tougher caches? Welcome to the club.

 

Best approach is to be annoying as possible. That will solve everything.

 

My advice. Focus on the good and then double up.

[+M 5]

Well lets just make every cache have to be a 1/1. That way noone feels left out. I'm glad there are sanctioned ALR's. Sure, some can get silly, but are they really sillier than a lot of png's out there? Even so, I don't agree with some of the changes they made to challenges a while back. I see no reason you can't have a 2/2 average for all your finds, even with the new challenge rules, but my sometimes faulty memory seems to remember that an average is specifically listed as not publishable. It doesn't fall under any of the guidelines.

Edited April 3, 2013 by M 5

[+Anonymike7]

I am really tired of seeing challenge caches that only about 5 per cent of cachers will ever qualify for.

 

You can always ignore those caches; then you won't have to see them. On the subject of qualification, 100% of cachers are 'qualified' to find 5/5 caches, but what percentage will ever log one as found?

 

I am going to put out some that will make it easier for the occasional cacher to qualify. What I also want to do is put out caches that are restricted to those who don't have many finds, say you have to have less than 3000 finds to be able to log as found. Is this possible? I don't think it is any different from premium members only caches. Thanks

 

If you're planning on putting out 'easy' challenges, why not just place traditional caches? A challenge should challenge; it should require extra effort to earn the find. There are tons of challenges I'll never qualify for, but just the fact that they exist gives me something to try to achieve. What's the point if you don't have to make an effort?

[+lamoracke]

There are hard challenges and there are easy ones. Some challenges take a few caches and almost anyone can pre-qualify if you have say 200 caches total. Some are beasts. No single person can do them all, well, should say, I can't think of a single person who would do every challenge in my state. There is one challenge in Washington that only one person has done.

 

There are many to choose from, some am sure you will enjoy, some you won't. You don't have to find every cache, you do not have to solve every puzzle, you do not have to find every challenge. However, have really enjoyed some of the places that challenge caches have taken me that I would never have thought of without them.

[+tozainamboku]

I have to admire someone who recognizes the basic unfairness of challenge caches and wants to do something about it. But the way to go about it is not to create more caches that are just as unfair to someone else.

 

My problem with all challenge caches it that someone hides a cache that, in most instances, you can go find; but the cache owner has decided to delete find logs if you didn't provide the "proof" that you met the challenge.

 

If you don't view the find count as a score, this is pretty silly. It would seem more logical not to tie the recognition of a challenge to finding a particular cache. We get all sorts of absurdities, from people who have completed a difficult challenge but have no way to log it because there are no challenge caches near to where they are they can go find, to people who have logged dozens of challenge caches because the qualifications is the same or similar for all of them.

 

You can always go find the the cache and share your experience with a note. Then, if you are a premium member, put the cache on your ignore list so it doesn't show up anymore. And before you look - Yes, when the "proof" is fairly simple to provide, I have logged finds on challenge caches; but I've also done quite a few as notes.

[GOF and Bacall]

I have to admire someone who recognizes the basic unfairness of challenge caches

 

What?! What is unfair about challenge caches? If someone wants to log them they can work for it like those who have. If someone wants to argue that they are ALR caches I can understand that. If someone wants to argue that they are silly I can understand that point. But to say they are unfair? Nope, that just doesn't make any sense.

[+L0ne.R]

I have to admire someone who recognizes the basic unfairness of challenge caches

 

What?! What is unfair about challenge caches? If someone wants to log them they can work for it like those who have. If someone wants to argue that they are ALR caches I can understand that. If someone wants to argue that they are silly I can understand that point. But to say they are unfair? Nope, that just doesn't make any sense.

 

They are ALR caches. Remind me, why were regular ALRs chopped yet challenge ALRs spared the axe?

Well not actually chopped, you can ask people to do things -- take a photo wearing the funny glasses in the cache -- but you can't delete their find if they don't. Why can't challenge caches follow the same rule?

Edited April 3, 2013 by L0ne R

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

I like the idea of there being "standard" Challenges, that are tracked by GC.com, with suitable "badges" (souveniers?) awarded in place of the challenge caches we have today.

 

DeLorme, County, D/T Grid, Calendar Grids (one find per date), Place Date grid, etc would work.

 

This would cut out some of the (very) silly ones that seem to be popping up while still rewarding cachers for their achievements.

[+mimandpap]

Two things attracted me to geocaching:

1. exercise - hiking on trails and the woods to get to a cache

2. I can make this hobby into what ever I want it to be without any expectations by others.

 

Yet on the forum I see discussion after discussion about people complaining about a particular type of cache.

I just wonder why they don't just create their hobby and not include whatever type of cache they don't like.

Having a variety of caches keeps it interesting and challenging to me.

All caches have restrictions, even a 1/1 traditional requires you to find it before you can log it.

My motto is no unfound cache by me will be left behind and that includes challenges.

[+Mudfrog]

I know i am in the minority here but for me, caching is not about seeing how many i can find. Racking up numbers is the least important aspect of geocaching as far as i'm concerned. I am not interested in, and definitely don't want to, find every cache that is placed.

 

I cache to see interesting places, to experience creative hides, and to challenge myself. Of course there are different types of challenges, some of which i can't or don't want to tackle. Some i'll never qualify for either but i cannot imagine losing any sleep over them. Why would someone let caches they don't like, bother them so much? Ignore the things and go for the bazzillion other ordinary hides out there!

[+tozainamboku]

I have to admire someone who recognizes the basic unfairness of challenge caches

 

What?! What is unfair about challenge caches? If someone wants to log them they can work for it like those who have. If someone wants to argue that they are ALR caches I can understand that. If someone wants to argue that they are silly I can understand that point. But to say they are unfair? Nope, that just doesn't make any sense.

It's unfair that someone who hasn't found 200 caches whose names begin with the letter 'F' can't use the Found It log to log they found the cache.

 

The OP considers it unfair that for a newbie it may take awhile to find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F', but an experienced cacher make already have this accomplishment.

 

I guess the point you make is that if you are so motivated by the smiley that you must have the Find Log online, then you can go find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F' (or make a list of caches you've already found) to qualify "like everyone else". That is true. And for now I might just post a note. But the Found log on geocaching is used by some people for a different reason - to track what caches they have found - and challenge caches force them to view the smiley as a reward - not for finding the cache but for meeting a challenge. If Groundspeak and the geocaching community want to have challenges, there are plenty of ways to do it that don't involve perverting the Found log into a prize.

Edited April 3, 2013 by tozainamboku

[+Oxford Stone]

Such is life, there are some which are just beyond your reach. (I was going to liken caches to women in that respect - but going on to say that there's a 5/5 which I want to watch a friend doing without scoring a point myself, the analogy just starts sounding wrong...)

[+L0ne.R]

I know i am in the minority here but for me, caching is not about seeing how many i can find. Racking up numbers is the least important aspect of geocaching as far as i'm concerned. I am not interested in, and definitely don't want to, find every cache that is placed.

 

I'm not into the numbers either, but I like a clean record of what I've found. And I like to see the map accurately reflect what I've found. I don't want to find and log a challenge cache (with a Note) then have to put it on my ignore list. And because I don't have a ton of finds or a lot of free time to find a cache-a-day or the money to travel or the physical ability to do T5 caches, so most challenge caches are not something I can achieve. In the last year there seems to be an exponential growth of them, at least in my area.

Edited April 3, 2013 by L0ne R

[+L0ne.R]

I have to admire someone who recognizes the basic unfairness of challenge caches

 

What?! What is unfair about challenge caches? If someone wants to log them they can work for it like those who have. If someone wants to argue that they are ALR caches I can understand that. If someone wants to argue that they are silly I can understand that point. But to say they are unfair? Nope, that just doesn't make any sense.

It's unfair that someone who hasn't found 200 caches whose names begin with the letter 'F' can't use the Found It log to log they found the cache.

 

The OP considers it unfair that for a newbie it may take awhile to find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F', but an experienced cacher make already have this accomplishment.

 

I guess the point you make is that if you are so motivated by the smiley that you must have the Find Log online, then you can go find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F' (or make a list of caches you've already found) to qualify "like everyone else". That is true. And for now I might just post a note. But the Found log on geocaching is used by some people for a different reason - to track what caches they have found - and challenge caches force them to view the smiley as a reward - not for finding the cache but for meeting a challenge. If Groundspeak and the geocaching community want to have challenges, there are plenty of ways to do it that don't involve perverting the Found log into a prize.

 

Exactly.

[+cerberus1]

Such is life, there are some which are just beyond your reach. (I was going to liken caches to women in that respect - but going on to say that there's a 5/5 which I want to watch a friend doing without scoring a point myself, the analogy just starts sounding wrong...)

If your friend wants to hand you the cache to sign (while you're taking pictures, or making sure he's safe) that's perfectly fine.

Before my other 2/3rds could use rope, she'd be the official pic taker, gear checker and a witness to let the EMTs know how I landed.

She signed the log.

ALRs saying you can't haven't been correct for some time.

[+CanadianRockies]

The OP considers it unfair that for a newbie it may take awhile to find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F', but an experienced cacher make already have this accomplishment.

That's why I consider soccer to be so unfair, too. Those who have put in 500 hours of practice are more likely to score goals than those who have put in 5 hours.

[+tozainamboku]

The OP considers it unfair that for a newbie it may take awhile to find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F', but an experienced cacher make already have this accomplishment.

That's why I consider soccer to be so unfair, too. Those who have put in 500 hours of practice are more likely to score goals than those who have put in 5 hours.

But if the the guy who has only practiced 5 hours does score a goal, it still counts.

[+bflentje]

The number one rule in life..

 

EQUAL OPPORUNITY DOES NOT EQUATE TO EQUAL OUTCOME.

 

Geocaching.com and cache hiders provide you with the opportunity. It is up to YOU to do the work. If you start today, perhaps by next month you'll qualify for a handful of challenges.

[+sasqwatches]

Well lets just make every cache have to be a 1/1. That way noone feels left out. I'm glad there are sanctioned ALR's. Sure, some can get silly, but are they really sillier than a lot of png's out there? Even so, I don't agree with some of the changes they made to challenges a while back. I see no reason you can't have a 2/2 average for all your finds, even with the new challenge rules, but my sometimes faulty memory seems to remember that an average is specifically listed as not publishable. It doesn't fall under any of the guidelines.

 

What is an ALR????

[+Semper Questio]

 

What is an ALR????

 

ALR - Additional Logging Requirement

 

There used to be cases where hiders would place a cache, sometimes with props inside, and wold require the finder to do something before they could log a find online. For instance, there may be a set of bunny ears in the cache and you have to put on the bunny ears, take a picture of yourself with the ears on, and post that picture with your find log. If you did not, the CO would delete your log. ALR caches were declared an official no-no some time ago but challenge caches were exempted from the ALR no-no.

[Clan Riffster]

It's unfair that someone who hasn't found 200 caches whose names begin with the letter 'F' can't use the Found It log to log they found the cache.

Yet another Toz strawman argument.

Anyone with enough persistence can meet the requirements.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Clan Riffster

[+J Grouchy]

I don't agree with the OP...but it DID remind me of this one cache I saw posted near me...

http://coord.info/GC46M6G

 

Now THAT one will take some real dedication to achieve...

[+L0ne.R]

It's unfair that someone who hasn't found 200 caches whose names begin with the letter 'F' can't use the Found It log to log they found the cache.

Yet another Toz strawman argument.

Anyone with enough persistence can meet the requirements.

 

You could set up another account to hide a bunch of LPCs with titles that begin with F then log them as found with your normal account. Then after 3 months archive those F caches and plant some more if you're still low on Fs.

I have seen folks hide caches to help someone meet their challenge requirements and I've read about it in the forums. I don't see why people wouldn't start pseudo-cheating to get them.

[+CanadianRockies]

The OP considers it unfair that for a newbie it may take awhile to find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F', but an experienced cacher make already have this accomplishment.

That's why I consider soccer to be so unfair, too. Those who have put in 500 hours of practice are more likely to score goals than those who have put in 5 hours.

But if the the guy who has only practiced 5 hours does score a goal, it still counts.

And if the less experienced geocacher completes a Challenge Cache, then that still counts as well. For example, I've completed challenges that require finding one other cache. Another required finding 100 traditional caches.

 

The likelihood of a newer geocacher completing any given challenge is less, but it still counts if they do complete it.

[+CanadianRockies]

You could set up another account to hide a bunch of LPCs with titles that begin with F then log them as found with your normal account. Then after 3 months archive those F caches and plant some more if you're still low on Fs.

I have seen folks hide caches to help someone meet their challenge requirements and I've read about it in the forums. I don't see why people wouldn't start pseudo-cheating to get them.

One reason why some people wouldn't start pseudo-cheating on Challenge Caches is because they enjoy the challenge.

[+sasqwatches]

 

What is an ALR????

 

ALR - Additional Logging Requirement

 

There used to be cases where hiders would place a cache, sometimes with props inside, and wold require the finder to do something before they could log a find online. For instance, there may be a set of bunny ears in the cache and you have to put on the bunny ears, take a picture of yourself with the ears on, and post that picture with your find log. If you did not, the CO would delete your log. ALR caches were declared an official no-no some time ago but challenge caches were exempted from the ALR no-no.

thanks for the info

[GOF and Bacall]

I have to admire someone who recognizes the basic unfairness of challenge caches

 

What?! What is unfair about challenge caches? If someone wants to log them they can work for it like those who have. If someone wants to argue that they are ALR caches I can understand that. If someone wants to argue that they are silly I can understand that point. But to say they are unfair? Nope, that just doesn't make any sense.

It's unfair that someone who hasn't found 200 caches whose names begin with the letter 'F' can't use the Found It log to log they found the cache.

 

The OP considers it unfair that for a newbie it may take awhile to find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F', but an experienced cacher make already have this accomplishment.

 

I guess the point you make is that if you are so motivated by the smiley that you must have the Find Log online, then you can go find 200 caches whose name begins with the letter 'F' (or make a list of caches you've already found) to qualify "like everyone else". That is true. And for now I might just post a note. But the Found log on geocaching is used by some people for a different reason - to track what caches they have found - and challenge caches force them to view the smiley as a reward - not for finding the cache but for meeting a challenge. If Groundspeak and the geocaching community want to have challenges, there are plenty of ways to do it that don't involve perverting the Found log into a prize.

 

Everybody needs to complete the same requirements. We all started with zero finds. People who have been caching for a while have already invested the time and effort it takes to find those 200 caches that begin with the letter F. It is not unfair for those who have just started to need to invest the same time and effort in their new pastime. They can even be said to have an advantage. There are more caches every day.

 

Now, if what you mean is that these challenges are no different than any other ALR I understand that. They are ALRs. But the only people they are not fair to are those who had their ALR caches closed or were forced to change them to comply with the rule change.

[4wheelin_fool]

The real challenge for some people is the inability to place the cache on an ignore list if they are unable to do it. This seems to be a common theme lately.

[GOF and Bacall]

I know i am in the minority here but for me, caching is not about seeing how many i can find. Racking up numbers is the least important aspect of geocaching as far as i'm concerned. I am not interested in, and definitely don't want to, find every cache that is placed.

 

I'm not into the numbers either, but I like a clean record of what I've found. And I like to see the map accurately reflect what I've found. I don't want to find and log a challenge cache (with a Note) then have to put it on my ignore list. And because I don't have a ton of finds or a lot of free time to find a cache-a-day or the money to travel or the physical ability to do T5 caches, so most challenge caches are not something I can achieve. In the last year there seems to be an exponential growth of them, at least in my area.

 

Not everybody can complete every cache. I can not complete a technical rope climb, for example. I except that and move on. I also don't log finds on many caches. That means that I don't qualify for most, if not all, challenge caches. I except that. In both cases I am unwilling or unable to complete the requirements needed to successfully complete the cache. I don't expect to be given a pass on either situation. Instead I complete those caches that are withing my abilities.

[GOF and Bacall]

The real challenge for some people is the inability to place the cache on an ignore list if they are unable to do it. This seems to be a common theme lately.

 

Agreed.

[+Beach_hut]

The reason that challenges cache are allowed and other ALRs aren't, is that challenge caches require you to do some geocaching to meet the challenge.

 

Whereas a cache that requires you to wear bunny ears, and sing the hokey cokey at the time of finding, or any other random whim of the cache owner, well, do you see the distinction?

 

Absolutely any cacher is able to go out and meet the qualification for any challenge cache, just by finding caches.

 

That said, some of the challenge caches out there have got a bit silly and specific in terms of their requirements, but they are all theoretically achievable to anyone.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Absolutely any cacher is able to go out and meet the qualification for any challenge cache, just by finding caches.

 

A person in a wheelchair may not be able to meet the D/T Grid challenges.

Edited April 3, 2013 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[+ByronForestPreserve]

If someone can't or does not want to meet the requirements for a challenge cache, there are two million other caches to find. I don't see the problem.

[+briansnat]

I'm not a fan of challenge caches and I do not seek them. I do own one which is incredibly unpopular and I've considered archiving it. However there appears to be a significant portion of the community that enjoys them. If you don't like them don't do them.

 

I do agree with Toz to a point. You find a cache you should be able to log a find and to have to go through hoops to be eligible to log a find on a cache you found is not in the spirit of geocaching. I wouldn't mind a distinct category for challenge caches where it would be possible to withhold the coordinates until someone has completed the challenge.

 

I don't like this ethic that makes a found it log a reward. A found it log should not be a reward, award, commodity or anything else, it should only be a statement of fact.

[+wmpastor]

I don't agree with the OP...but it DID remind me of this one cache I saw posted near me...

http://coord.info/GC46M6G

 

Now THAT one will take some real dedication to achieve...

One heck of a cache! Apparently, only two people in the state of Georgia qualify to find it, and then ironically FTF was an out-of-stater on a road trip!

[GOF and Bacall]

I'm not a fan of challenge caches and I do not seek them. I do own one which is incredibly unpopular and I've considered archiving it. However there appears to be a significant portion of the community that enjoys them. If you don't like them don't do them.

 

I do agree with Toz to a point. You find a cache you should be able to log a find and to have to go through hoops to be eligible to log a find on a cache you found is not in the spirit of geocaching. I wouldn't mind a distinct category for challenge caches where it would be possible to withhold the coordinates until someone has completed the challenge.

 

I don't like this ethic that makes a found it log a reward. A found it log should not be a reward, award, commodity or anything else, it should only be a statement of fact.

 

I don't care for them either. But everyone has the same hurdles to cross. They are not inherently unfair.

[+Mudfrog]

I know i am in the minority here but for me, caching is not about seeing how many i can find. Racking up numbers is the least important aspect of geocaching as far as i'm concerned. I am not interested in, and definitely don't want to, find every cache that is placed.

 

I'm not into the numbers either, but I like a clean record of what I've found. And I like to see the map accurately reflect what I've found. I don't want to find and log a challenge cache (with a Note) then have to put it on my ignore list. And because I don't have a ton of finds or a lot of free time to find a cache-a-day or the money to travel or the physical ability to do T5 caches, so most challenge caches are not something I can achieve. In the last year there seems to be an exponential growth of them, at least in my area.

 

I like my stats to be clean and accurate as possible too. It's fairly easy to keep them that way by just ignoring the caches that you can't or don't want to tackle. Nobody says you have to go find a challenge cache and log a note. Simply ignore it and find what you like.

 

This is no different than a cache on the ISS, at the bottom of the sea, on the top of a mountain, in a tall tree, etc,,,. A few people will have fun with those but the majority of us can never have a go at them. Just because i myself might not be able to log them as found, doesn't mean i should call for them to be taken away...

 

Imo, we need variety to make this hobby of ours stay interesting.

[+Mudfrog]

The real challenge for some people is the inability to place the cache on an ignore list if they are unable to do it. This seems to be a common theme lately.

 

Agreed.

 

I was just thinking this same thing!

[AZcachemeister]

How hard is it to not go after a challenge cache you don't qualify for?

 

Seriously...you knew you didn't qualify, why even go there?

 

My years of geocaching have given me finds to qualify for a plethora of challenges, yet there are still quite a few I need to work for like anyone else.

 

If I want to 'find' those caches, I will need to work on it.

There are other challenges (the ones based on Waymarking, for instance) that I know I'll never qualify for.

 

Why should I cry and wail 'UNFAIRNESS!' if I choose not to do a bunch of waymarks?

 

The online smilie IS in fact our online reward for finding caches.

 

You can choose not to count them, or to think of them in other ways if you like.

There are plenty of folks who still think the world is flat, too.

[+Castle Mischief]

I have to admire someone who recognizes the basic unfairness of challenge caches and wants to do something about it. But the way to go about it is not to create more caches that are just as unfair to someone else.

 

I have to admire someone that ignores the fact that 1)challenge caches are in the extreme minority of total caches and 2)nobody is making you hunt them.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Castle Mischief

[+Castle Mischief]

Absolutely any cacher is able to go out and meet the qualification for any challenge cache, just by finding caches.

 

A person in a wheelchair may not be able to meet the D/T Grid challenges.

 

A person in a wheelchair might not be able to find a great many other caches as well. What if the challenge cache itself is a terrain 5 cache?

[+The Jester]

Absolutely any cacher is able to go out and meet the qualification for any challenge cache, just by finding caches.

 

A person in a wheelchair may not be able to meet the D/T Grid challenges.

A person in wheelchair can't climb El Cap ... oh, wait, yes he can - he just needs to do 6000+ chin-ups. Anyone with the right drive can accomplish the D/T grid.

[+The Jester]

I'm not a fan of challenge caches and I do not seek them. I do own one which is incredibly unpopular and I've considered archiving it. However there appears to be a significant portion of the community that enjoys them. If you don't like them don't do them.

 

I do agree with Toz to a point. You find a cache you should be able to log a find and to have to go through hoops to be eligible to log a find on a cache you found is not in the spirit of geocaching. I wouldn't mind a distinct category for challenge caches where it would be possible to withhold the coordinates until someone has completed the challenge.

 

I don't like this ethic that makes a found it log a reward. A found it log should not be a reward, award, commodity or anything else, it should only be a statement of fact.

And the statement of fact on a challenge cache is that you completed the challenge.

[+tozainamboku]

I'm not a fan of challenge caches and I do not seek them. I do own one which is incredibly unpopular and I've considered archiving it. However there appears to be a significant portion of the community that enjoys them. If you don't like them don't do them.

 

I do agree with Toz to a point. You find a cache you should be able to log a find and to have to go through hoops to be eligible to log a find on a cache you found is not in the spirit of geocaching. I wouldn't mind a distinct category for challenge caches where it would be possible to withhold the coordinates until someone has completed the challenge.

 

I don't like this ethic that makes a found it log a reward. A found it log should not be a reward, award, commodity or anything else, it should only be a statement of fact.

And the statement of fact on a challenge cache is that you completed the challenge.

Of course, were challenges handled a different way than using a cache, there would still be a statement of fact that you completed the challenge. What happens now is that the there is a statement of fact that you found the cache and were able to demonstrate that you completed the challenge at some point in time. The FIND log is being used for something beyond the original idea.

 

Here's a little history:

 

The original challenges were puzzle caches - you completed the Delorme or similar challenge and you emailed the "proof" to the cache owner to get the coordinates. Now, this was done at a time when ALRs were allowed, so I suppose if you found the cache by accident or went with someone else who had gotten the coordinated, the owner could delete your log. But my guess is that many owners of these challenges would have allowed logs by people who hadn't completed the challenge but who had found the cache.

 

These original challenges also has some issues, due to the emailing for the coordinates (and in the case of Delorme - they were commercial). So they required an exception to be approved and the number of these caches was kept small.

 

Later, ALR caches were subject to special rules. ALR caches had to use the unknown type. Only then could cache owners enforce these restrictions. In keeping with the new treatment of ALR, the reviewers started treating challenges as a type of ALR. To avoid the need to email for the coordinates, the caches had to be at the posted coordinated (or at least determinable from the information on the cache page).

 

The number of challenges skyrocketed, as they were easily approved under this new model. Only a few rules were in place - such as not having challenges based on caches placed or on the number of DNFs posted.

 

The new model has a flaw, IMO, which is the same flaw as all ALR caches. Cache owners could arbitrarily delete logs by not accepting the "proof" that the challenge or other ALR was done. Challenges based on common statistics were less likely to have this problem as the statistic became the "proof", but there are still plenty of challenges that are somewhat capricious and subject to interpretation.

 

When other ALRs were banned because they were being abused, TPTB made the decision to exempt geocaching related challenges. However, they quickly realize that then need a tighter definition of what a geocaching related challenge id. They came up with one of the more complicated sets of guidelines in the hopes of preventing challenges from becoming too capricious. In the eyes of some these guideline (particularly the one that challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on date found) are seen as making some caches very easy for cachers with high find counts, while requiring new cachers to spend months or years to achieve the same goal.

 

I have nothing against a challenge being unfair, although others might. I do find the argument that this unfairness is "fair" a bit of a stretch.