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Just wondering what people think. We cache as a family sometimes which means 5 of us and two hounds. However only two will look usually. Due to space constraints. And I think that's fair enough. Or even two families. It's kind of inevitable. What I find arrogant and not a little stupid and self serving is dragging a group of scouts/school children/other large 20 or so let's say people around a set of caches for the day. Non cachers following a few cachers to an area to indulge themselves. Where any walk would do. It just happens that the cachers have decide to combine both to suit their own wants and needs. I've seen it over and over again.

 

The defence would be to bring the hobby and area to the non cachers. However the end result is a large group loitering and even worse searching potentially in a usually delicate area. Can't place a Tupperware container there if your going to mar the environment but its ok to drag a large group of non cachers there.

 

It just rattles me and I wonder if others do this regularly. I've even started seeing on caches requests not to do this on their cache.

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As a Cacher and a Scout Leader I do. The scouts walk in groups of between 4 and 7 and attempt the caches as they walk. We have never had any complaints from owners, and to be fair as they are all local, I know them personally. This is a great way to introduce young people to the sport, in the same way we do with climbing, archery, abseiling, hill walking etc. As for spoiling the environment, we don't, but I have been to some site where just several 'normal caching teams' have been and found total devastation... :mad: Just my thoughts, and as we seem to have so few 12 to 17 year olds involved anything that involves them should be welcomed in my view... :)

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This will continue to be an ongoing dichotomy with geocaching especially as the pastime grows. We try and bring people to interesting places but the increased traffic will obviously have an effect on the environment. The scenario that you mention combined with more challenging hides furthers the problems.

It must be ingrained into every hider/searcher to try and minimise the effect on the environment and take personal responsibility for every cache search that is undertaken.

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Both the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts can earn Merit Badges in geocaching. Should they not be allowed to cache? I take groups out a few times a year, but only where I work and to caches that I own. They may not be cachers yet, but part of the badge work is learning about safety and respect for the habitat.

 

Would your reasoning also apply to events and mega-events where caches are hidden with the intent that a hundred or more people will find them on a single day, often in groups?

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The thought of 'gangs' of cachers rattles me. The Pair of us usually go together and sometimes 2 people at one cache site can be too much.

Having said that, we have several caches in the New Forest that are regularly visited by Scouts and D of E groups and we've seen no more impact on those areas than at other caches not visited by them.

Also, we have 3 Night Caches that are often visited by Scouting Groups, with no bad effect on those areas.

Finally, we have one cache in particular that is visited almost weekly by a group of children from a Special Needs School.

 

Maybe we're just lucky that these kids are enjoying what we've created.

 

And finally....What does dichotomy mean

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The thought of 'gangs' of cachers rattles me. The Pair of us usually go together and sometimes 2 people at one cache site can be too much.

Having said that, we have several caches in the New Forest that are regularly visited by Scouts and D of E groups and we've seen no more impact on those areas than at other caches not visited by them.

Also, we have 3 Night Caches that are often visited by Scouting Groups, with no bad effect on those areas.

Finally, we have one cache in particular that is visited almost weekly by a group of children from a Special Needs School.

 

Maybe we're just lucky that these kids are enjoying what we've created.

 

And finally....What does dichotomy mean

Dichotomy - two opposing situations. In context, geocaching attempts to take you somewhere special (most of the time) but the act of bringing a lot of people there can actually spoil that site/experience.

Some individuals or groups will respect the site but unfortunately some will not. I don't think it is fair to blame groups including non-cachers etc.

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Both the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts can earn Merit Badges in geocaching. Should they not be allowed to cache? I take groups out a few times a year, but only where I work and to caches that I own. They may not be cachers yet, but part of the badge work is learning about safety and respect for the habitat.

 

Navigator Badge - see section D

 

With all the negative posts about cachers destroying the countryside i agree that it is a good thing that we teach the up and coming youth how to be responsible. Caching is very much down to the individual, if you get a single cacher who doesn't care he can do considerably more damage than a well managed group.

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Interesting reactions as such.

 

Well firstly an "event" is organised and the caches placed for the event will obviously get a lot of hits. But then it seems to have been missed that this is obvious. That is why the caches are placed in the first place. However caches in the area will also get a hit. Again obvious. But thats not really what I mean.

 

The arguments being made are - because it happens at these events and they are far worse (assumption on your collective parts btw), then it is OK for a group of scouts (non cachers) to attend with cache guides because there is less of them presumably and of course because they are scouts in your examples, they are beyond reproach where the environment is concerned due to your diligent tutelage.

 

Well I was a scout for many years and I dont remember it being so holy i'm afraid lol. And as for using geocaching to navigate to an area and calculate speed, direction and time to arrival etc as shown in the example .... bit ridiculous to use that as a premise for assumed permission. Geocaching wasnt around when I was a scout, we used maps, compass and predetermined routes and simple calclulations. We managed ok in fact better than ok as this would be used across dartmoor in the dark for 48 hours some years later. And as far as I am aware its a bit of a bi*tch to find a cache using that method. Hence the GPS. Not standard scouting equipment. No I am afraid the argument does not really hold water to use geocaching routes as valid Scouting routes. I stick to my opinion for now that it is a "few", lazy souls, who are using their hobby/wants/needs and indulging themselves and carting scouts or whatever around as an easy option to satisfy their hobby versus their assumed responsibility. I say a few ... I hope it is a few.

 

Perhaps permission to visit a series should be sought by the leaders beforehand. I for one would not want 20+ people visiting a cache of mine and searching an area. I think that scouting or any group like it is an invaluable experience and I only wish I had joined sooner. I have very fond memories of it. But I cant say we were poorer for not doing geocaching as is implied here. If you have a profile and you cache outside of this activity I cannot see an issue. However I take issue with caching scout leaders and other similar heads descending enmass using scouting merit in experience and progress, as an excuse.

 

No doubt it will continue unabated though because that is the nature of people. To continue to do what we want because we can lol. Thank you for your explanations.

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The most 'wrecked' areas I have visited had never had a scout anywhere near them other than my own son who couldn't believe the carnage and change at GZ. The only visitors were experienced geocachers desperate for a smilie.

I stick by my original comments. Unfortunately some will disrespect GZ, hopefully most will be as careful as they possibly can.

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Perhaps permission to visit a series should be sought by the leaders beforehand. I for one would not want 20+ people visiting a cache of mine and searching an area. I think that scouting or any group like it is an invaluable experience and I only wish I had joined sooner. I have very fond memories of it. But I cant say we were poorer for not doing geocaching as is implied here. If you have a profile and you cache outside of this activity I cannot see an issue. However I take issue with caching scout leaders and other similar heads descending enmass using scouting merit in experience and progress, as an excuse.

 

No doubt it will continue unabated though because that is the nature of people. To continue to do what we want because we can lol. Thank you for your explanations.

 

The trouble is the eternal problem of the responsible against the irresponsible. The responsible among us will be responsible and make sure they don't trash an area for the sake of a smiley. The irresponsible will simply ignore anything you put in place to encourage people to be responsible.

 

If a cache is hidden in an area open to the public there's nothing you can do to stop someone taking vast numbers of people with them, whether so everyone can search at once and totally wreck the area or just to tag along and humour one or two among them who want to stop and look for a sandwich box.

 

As far as I can see the only way to be sure large groups will never visit your cache is to not hide it in the first place. Even if you put it in a mostly inaccessible location you'll get people teaming up to get it, although if it's hidden somewhere like the top of a tall tree the chances are most of the group will wait at the bottom.

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Hi SP - loved your log for Gibbet Hill. The chafing's much better now, btw. :)

 

I generally cache alone, maybe with a dog, occasionally with a mate. I enjoy solitude.

 

If a large group of about 20 came along, I'd try and avoid them, or wait. But I wouldn't be upset if they did my caches. Yes, 20 people make more disturbance than one, both walking and searching, but do they cause more damage than 20 individual cachers? Not convinced they do.

 

My only concern is that with a large group like this, those at the back won't get any feel or meaning. By the time they get there, it will have been found by the same people. They might get a glimpse of tupperware but for them it'll just be a slow walk. IMO, it would be better to split the groups and find the caches several times. The most important thing is that they're well behaved.

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So, what evidence do you have of such groups of 20 scouts? I don't think they are a common occurrence. The groups of scouts or DofE I have come across have been in groups of about 6, not too dissimilar to a couple of families really.

I get the impression you've got yourself would up by a single example, or maybe even just a theory?

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Hi Dartymoor (or slippy thighs lol) ...

 

Hi Mike - I had not intended that this thread would come to anything I just wanted an opinion. A broad opinion. I didnt mention scouts specifically until it was mentioned and is a good an example as any. It was generic but it lends itself to scouts, DofE, guides or school children apparently taken by their teacher on the 5th of December last year ...

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=77aec65d-ba76-4e53-8fc5-7c8dda1e8f65

 

Where we see comments such as ...

 

Found it05/12/2012

this was preety fun i guess only because we got to miss 2 lessons so it was perfet and i dont ever want to go on it and my name is kye and we are having a challenge to find the most i guess and my real name is kyle and nobody nows my second name because i scard..........................

 

or another classmate ......

 

Found it28/11/2012

Excellent hide okey college student

 

or another ....

 

Found it05/12/2012

boring :(

 

or another ....

 

Found it05/12/2012

let everyone else do the finding (Which is mentioned above)

 

In fact throughout the whole series of these caches the comments are pretty naff. The series itself is a fun gentle and excellent walk in a great area and is created by some lovely unassuming cachers. I felt disgusted when I saw these logs to be honest and its a testament to the gentleness of the CO's that they didnt delete the logs as I know many who would. Not sure what we would do to be honest.

 

There are of course other examples but I am sure many would jump to defend their comments and that fine and proper.

 

But I think more importantly, though NOT shown in this example is another example of cachers who are premium members taking non premium member or even NON cachers around in a large group doing premium member caches and logging them.

 

Left to their own devices they would not be able to see these caches and certainly in my case my cache was made premium member to reduce footfall and exclude beginners to reduce wear and tear on the site. Now I know some will say that newbies are better or worse than premium members and I agree. But at least a premium member does know and should know better. A newbie does not necessarily have that experience and potentially cannot be expected to know better. If that makes sense. Well anyway it was just a quick question to see what people thought. And thank you for your thoughts I think for now I will when we next publish a cache keep it premium members, though to be honest it seems a little pointless at times eh lol.

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Hi SP - loved your log for Gibbet Hill. The chafing's much better now, btw. :)

 

I generally cache alone, maybe with a dog, occasionally with a mate. I enjoy solitude.

 

If a large group of about 20 came along, I'd try and avoid them, or wait. But I wouldn't be upset if they did my caches. Yes, 20 people make more disturbance than one, both walking and searching, but do they cause more damage than 20 individual cachers? Not convinced they do.

 

My only concern is that with a large group like this, those at the back won't get any feel or meaning. By the time they get there, it will have been found by the same people. They might get a glimpse of tupperware but for them it'll just be a slow walk. IMO, it would be better to split the groups and find the caches several times. The most important thing is that they're well behaved.

Agreed.

Years ago, we went to a bash and there was a large new series launched for the event. Approximately 25 people (including us) set out at the same time to complete the series. Some walked quicker than others and by the time we got to each cache, the whole group had been signed into the logbook by the FTF with a Team Name. There was no need for us to sign the cache or even look for it. Essentially, we ended up just being on a 'walk' and by the 3rd cache we had turned our GPS off. I suppose it did have the effect of minimising the damage to the area but to us, it also minimised the fun - Never again.

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Same here. We don't like to go out with a big crowd.

 

Another advantage of going out alone, is that there's no-one there to witness me getting lost, failing to find, falling off the bike, falling in the water, getting stuck in a snowdrift and all the other humiliations of caching. Plus, when you reach an advanced age, the need to wet a hedge is more frequent.

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Same here. We don't like to go out with a big crowd.

 

Another advantage of going out alone, is that there's no-one there to witness me getting lost, failing to find, falling off the bike, falling in the water, getting stuck in a snowdrift and all the other humiliations of caching. Plus, when you reach an advanced age, the need to wet a hedge is more frequent.

 

Needing to water a hedge is a situation where having a fellow cacher can help. It's handy to have someone to watch the bike while you duck into a clump of trees, whether to find a cache or water the trees.

 

I remember one series I did by bike that I soon abandoned because of the endless need to leave the bike on a path while diving into clumps of trees to hunt the cache - nothing available to secure the bike outside the trees, the branches were a little too dense to carry the bike inside, and the caches were hidden in places that meant I couldn't keep the bike in sight all the time.

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So a teacher has organised geocaching into the curriculum and managed to get a class around a series - not necessarily at the same time and I suspect they will have gone around in several groups rather than one large one. Some of the logs leave something to be desired but nothing unusual for a Y10 class by the looks of it, plus there are some more than satisfactory entries. This teacher should be applauded, just because a few of the class didn't appreciate it that is not a reason to be deriding him/her.

 

The rules of this game are quite broad and don't specify whether you do it solo or in groups of specific sizes. Nor does it require a finder to actually sign the cache log or the online log. You won't find any rules about what constitutes a 'log' either which is why some are several paragraphs long and others nothing more than a full stop!

There are also no rules preventing premium members from taking their non premium members on a caching trip, premium caches are not 'off limits' to non members, they just won't be able to see them from their account when they log in. I did quite a few premium caches with friends before subscribing to the premium option, having found them I then logged them as found.

 

At the end of the day 'It's Just a Game'.

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So a teacher has organised geocaching into the curriculum and managed to get a class around a series - not necessarily at the same time and I suspect they will have gone around in several groups rather than one large one. Some of the logs leave something to be desired but nothing unusual for a Y10 class by the looks of it, plus there are some more than satisfactory entries. This teacher should be applauded, just because a few of the class didn't appreciate it that is not a reason to be deriding him/her.

 

The rules of this game are quite broad and don't specify whether you do it solo or in groups of specific sizes. Nor does it require a finder to actually sign the cache log or the online log. You won't find any rules about what constitutes a 'log' either which is why some are several paragraphs long and others nothing more than a full stop!

There are also no rules preventing premium members from taking their non premium members on a caching trip, premium caches are not 'off limits' to non members, they just won't be able to see them from their account when they log in. I did quite a few premium caches with friends before subscribing to the premium option, having found them I then logged them as found.

 

At the end of the day 'It's Just a Game'.

 

Hmm I see your a blander. You bland things out until they are coloured with a trivial tint lol.

 

Except I dont agree with you and you are a bit too broad sweeping statements and not a lot of fact for me.

 

You assume they are year 10, you assume it was not at the same time, you assume the teacher should be applauded but that is 'A' viewpoint not all viewpoints and you see no wrong but I do. So whilst you have an opinion it is not a correct opinion or a better opinion it is a 'personal' opinion and mine is that it is disrespectful to have permitted this to happen on the part of the teacher.

 

Lazy and rude of the pupils concerned and certainly not respectful to the hobby or the people involved in setting the series. You asked for proof, I give you proof now you pick apart the proof to try and make yourself appear correct. And please do not tell me that it is not a reason to use them as an example of poor practice. :huh: I'll decide for myself if I think its poor practice thank you <_< and it is in my opinion.

 

"Geocaching" is for "geocachers". End of really. It's not a 'game' it is an organised activity for geocachers who have agreed to the Terms and Conditions of the site and activity. And anyone introducing someone to the activity has a responsibility to ensure those ethics are followed.

 

I am not allowed to go and play in a school classrom ... mainly because of the restraining order ... but still I wouldnt be. If I was, at least I would be respectful. I can join the scouts I guess but I look rough in shorts now and I hate cleaning cars. But still I am not going to change you Mike or your opinion. Skewed as it is. I wouldnt try. Your opinion is your own and yours alone but it is not universal or correct, it is, and shall remain - yours. :)

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"Geocaching" is for "geocachers". End of really. It's not a 'game' it is an organised activity for geocachers who have agreed to the Terms and Conditions of the site and activity. And anyone introducing someone to the activity has a responsibility to ensure those ethics are followed.

 

Even ignoring the existence of other listing sites, anyone can become a "geocacher" by creating a free account on geocaching.com - it's not like it's an exclusive club. We're not talking about an intellectually exclusive group like saying "this is for nuclear physicists" or a physically elite group like "this is for marathon runners". A few minutes in an internet cafe and every single one of those kids can become a geocacher with as much status in the community as you or I had when we first created our accounts.

 

Why does someone introducing another person to geocaching have any responsibility regarding the way that other person chooses to play the game? That's like saying the guy who sold me my bicycle bears some responsibility if I choose to ride it in a reckless and dangerous manner. We can (and maybe should) explain basic notions of discreet hunting, respect for the hiding place and so on but ultimately each geocacher is a free agent responsible for their own conduct.

 

It's perfectly true to say there are different opinions on what counts as an acceptable way of geocaching but it's a statement of fact that you can't control how other people play the game. If you hide a cache then people may hunt it solo, they may form small groups, they may form groups the size of a private army. And unless you have a means of controlling who gets to access the area where the cache is hidden you can't demand that people only cache in small enough groups to suit your preference. If an area is sufficiently delicate that it can't cope with even relatively small groups visiting perhaps it's too delicate to support a geocache.

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Seaglass,

 

And yet it is you that has come here to state you don't like the way others are playing this game or organised activity???? in a manner that appears you believe your opinion to be correct!!!

 

As for assumptions we all have to make a few, but if you look carefully at the logs left by the class on 5th Dec many start with 10 plus a letter, which look suspiciously like Class names - so a pretty fair assumption :)

 

How about volunteering to help said teacher with their next event? You can ensure that it is done properly, or at least by your rules. Then everyone will be happy ;)

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Seaglass,

 

And yet it is you that has come here to state you don't like the way others are playing this game or organised activity???? in a manner that appears you believe your opinion to be correct!!!

 

As for assumptions we all have to make a few, but if you look carefully at the logs left by the class on 5th Dec many start with 10 plus a letter, which look suspiciously like Class names - so a pretty fair assumption :)

 

How about volunteering to help said teacher with their next event? You can ensure that it is done properly, or at least by your rules. Then everyone will be happy ;)

 

Firstly I'm sorry Team I can't speculate an answer to all of your what if's I can only speak from my example and opinion. The what if's tend to become endless until they distort into improbable. So keeping it away from theoretical bicycle salesmen which are out of context - if anyone takes a newbie geocaching I would hope they feel a responsibility to pass on the ethics of the activity assumed or otherwise tempered with common sense. The rest happens doesnt it. Inevitably. Unless you dont think they should try ...

 

Mike - its a shame your soap box only faces one way lol. And then there was "As for assumptions we all have to make a few .... " Do we? I assume (ironic I know), that we would teach those that use this activity that being polite and respectful of it is key, but clearly I am wrong according to you. See, assumptions are unhelpful arent they.

 

I actually came to ask what others thought. Not to argue the toss. But I can argue my perspective but it does not make me right.

 

Then there was the snipe - well I guess I deserved it. Silly and a bit childish though.

 

"How about volunteering to help said teacher with their next event? You can ensure that it is done properly, or at least by your rules. Then everyone will be happy ;)"

 

I shouldnt have to though should I because such organisations are beyond reproach ... according to your rules :ph34r: So I guess everything is A OK.

Edited by Seaglass Pirates
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It's the nature of the hobby, that includes many events, that many people will find a cache potentially on the same day. Whether this is a cacher leading a group of non cachers or 30plus cachers either as a group or as a succession doesn't really matter.

 

Once you've placed it you basically lose the right to be able to dictate who finds it or even goes for a walk anywhere near it. If it's in an environmentally sensitive area with flora that can easily be damaged then I would suggest that you move it slightly, it doesn't matter if the delay between finders is ten seconds or an hour the same level of damage will accrue. Most of the damage that I have observed over the years has been due to either poor co-ordinates, poor clue ( resulting in prolonged searching) or a container that is not suitable for the location ( micro in woodland for instance).

 

Just because someone caches in a different way to the way that you prefer doesn't make them or you right. :)

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Personally, some of our caches are found so infrequently these days, Id be happy to see logs from any group/s of people. After all, isn't that the whole point of setting them? Also, providing they weren't abusive, it wouldn't upset me in the slightest if children wrote a few daft things on the page :lol:

 

As I understand it, part of being a Scout/Brownie/Guide is to participate in outdoor activities. In the old'n days, this may have involved collecting different types of leaves, counting slugs or identifying insects. Things have moved on a tad now though I'm afraid. Short of getting in touch with The Boy Scouts Association to voice your concerns, the only way of preventing the 'damage' would be to not entice these people to the area with cache/s in the first place.

 

I'm sorry you have become 'rattled' about this but cant help feeling you are rattling unnecessarily. Unless the Scouts are pouring in by the bucket-load on a weekly basis and if the foliage/nature has been compromised, it will recover in no time.

Edited to add...

DIB, DIB, DIB - where's me woggle?

Edited by thehoomer
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DIB, DIB, DIB - where's me woggle?

Do you mean to say it's not part of your caching kit??? Tsh Tsh. But for info it's DYB (Do Your Best) :)

 

Happy caching everyone, but in groups of 9 or less please ;) or should that be 8 or less? Oh NO - forced into making assumptions again!

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DIB, DIB, DIB - where's me woggle?

Do you mean to say it's not part of your caching kit??? Tsh Tsh. But for info it's DYB (Do Your Best) :)

 

Happy caching everyone, but in groups of 9 or less please ;) or should that be 8 or less? Oh NO - forced into making assumptions again!

Oh flip, I wish I'd Ging Gang Goolied it now.

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Seaglass,

 

And yet it is you that has come here to state you don't like the way others are playing this game or organised activity???? in a manner that appears you believe your opinion to be correct!!!

 

As for assumptions we all have to make a few, but if you look carefully at the logs left by the class on 5th Dec many start with 10 plus a letter, which look suspiciously like Class names - so a pretty fair assumption :)

 

How about volunteering to help said teacher with their next event? You can ensure that it is done properly, or at least by your rules. Then everyone will be happy ;)

 

Firstly I'm sorry Team I can't speculate an answer to all of your what if's I can only speak from my example and opinion. The what if's tend to become endless until they distort into improbable. So keeping it away from theoretical bicycle salesmen which are out of context - if anyone takes a newbie geocaching I would hope they feel a responsibility to pass on the ethics of the activity assumed or otherwise tempered with common sense. The rest happens doesnt it. Inevitably. Unless you dont think they should try ...

 

The what-ifs can distort but it might be useful if you could explain how someone is responsible for the conduct of another just because they introduced them to geocaching. The teacher might explain to the kids that they need to be careful not to trample the area down too badly but that teacher can't be held responsible if the kids decide to go geocaching and totally trash an area hunting a box. Even if one or two of the kids got a bit unruly in the area of the cache (as kids are prone to do) it's a bit silly to regard the teacher as being inherently unreasonable. I'd go back to the statement that if an area is too sensitive to have a few kids around (doing the kind of things that kids do) then perhaps it's too sensitive for a geocache at all.

 

The bicycle salesman comparison isn't out of context at all, expecting people to take responsibility for what others do with information or opportunities given to them isn't so far removed from expecting my local bike shop to take responsibility if I buy a bike from them and then ride recklessly on the pavement. They can explain considerate cycling all they want but if I decide to ignore it what are they expected to do?

 

As I said before there is precisely nothing you can do to restrict people from hunting your cache as individuals, small groups or huge groups. If you really feel so strongly that people shouldn't be hunting your caches in groups of more than a certain number perhaps the best way to enforce it is not to hide them at all. That way you won't get annoyed at the wrong people finding them.

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DIB, DIB, DIB - where's me woggle?

Do you mean to say it's not part of your caching kit??? Tsh Tsh. But for info it's DYB (Do Your Best) :)

 

Happy caching everyone, but in groups of 9 or less please ;) or should that be 8 or less? Oh NO - forced into making assumptions again!

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Well I goes to show your never too old to learn

I never knew DIB DIB should be spelt DYB and means Do Your Best .

Next you will be telling me DOB DOB DOB means Do Our Best , I was never a scout :rolleyes:

Geocaching teaches me something new every day . :rolleyes::D

 

Now tell me what the gooly bit is all about :)

Edited by hommer777
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Well I goes to show your never too old to learn

I never knew DIB DIB should be spelt DYB and means Do Your Best .

Next you will be telling me DOB DOB DOB means Do Our Best , I was never a scout :rolleyes:

Geocaching teaches me something new every day . :rolleyes::D

 

Now tell me what the gooly bit is all about :)

You catch on quick Hommer777, Unfortunately I'm unable to explain the Gooly bit - you have to have undertaken the secret handshake ;)
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