When a CO changes the D/T on a cache...

18.9k · March 28, 2013

Lets see here - same cache listing, same container, same hide location same owner but a new housing division rolls in and it is no longer a 2 mile hike to the cache along a rough path because of the brand new road 75 feet away and much of the brush from the road is cleared. (real example)

Your telling me to archive the cache and submit a new one rather than do a simple edit of the T from 3 to 1.5 rating to reflect reality?? Just so I don't upset the 1 in 10 cachers (at most) that cares about filling in a grid??

really, that seems like a reasonable approach to some of you??

It would honestly have never occurred to me to even think of that until I read this thread. Lord knows I have been around these forums for a looooong time.

Edited March 28, 2013 by StarBrand

18.9k · March 28, 2013

...double....

Edited March 28, 2013 by StarBrand

22k · March 28, 2013

Lets see here - same cache listing, same container, same hide location same owner but a new housing division rolls in and it is no longer a 2 mile hike to the cache along a rough path because of the brand new road 75 feet away and much of the brush from the road is cleared. (real example)

Your telling me to archive the cache and submit a new one rather than do a simple edit of the T from 3 to 1.5 rating to reflect reality?? Just so I don't upset the 1 in 10 cachers (at most) that cares about filling in a grid??

really, that seems like a reasonable approach to some of you??

It would honestly have never occurred to me to even think of that until I read this thread. Lord knows I have been around these forums for a looooong time.

You can't archive a historical cache. Somebody might want to log a Note on a revisit.

March 28, 2013

Wow, Roman!, I didn't think that my reasonable post would merit such harsh criticism.

When I started caching, I wanted to complete the fizzy at some point. However, I didn't want to do it to log a cache, I just wanted to eventually be able to pat myself on the back for being a "well-rounded cacher". My mentality was that I would have to pick up a couple of each D/T combo to account for the changes that are made to cache listings.

I think this is a classic example of caching eras. There really weren't many "challenge cache" listings out when I began caching. It wasn't until the ALR boom that they really made seeking a specific D/T combo a "need" for cachers. Now, with cachers who were "born" into this era of caching, achieving all 81 combos is viewed as an achievement that is obtained as quickly as possible.

The fact is, so long as challenge caches us metrics containing items that might change, your grid might change. D/T were not designed for grids to be completed. Dates that a cache was hidden at the location were not designed for a side game. Completing these challenges might be challenging. Finding a "rare" combo is a challenge. Finding enough caches to complete a grid is a challenge. Finding enough combos to assure that you can qualify for a challenge cache is a challenge.

A challenge cache that includes all 81 d/t combos is a challenge to complete. Not recognizing that a cache owner has the ability and right to adjust the D/T of their caches is a problem. (Yes, yes, present all of the extreme cases you want. You know what I mean, and you're just tempted to be argumentative)

Again, if you want to find all 81 combos, great! Just be prepared for the rare instance where a combo is changed by an owner. They're called challenges for a reason.

I was commenting on the multiple posts saying who cares about someone else's grids. My point is that if you have a rare combo a good number of you finders will have sought out your cache for that very reason. Changing the rating is inconsiderate and may net you some nasty feedback.

I feel the posters saying tough luck are selfish and don't care about others or how others enjoy the game.

How am I supposed to know why each person visits my cache? If I legitimately change the D/T ratings I'm not doing it to mess up someone's grid or somehow lessen someone's enjoyment of the game. You can't call me selfish if I don't even know that CacherX really really needed that D/T combo and now he's missing it from his grid and can't log that challenge cache 75 miles away that I also don't know about... :blink:

5.6k · March 28, 2013

I really have to laugh at the "you can't change D/T because of side games" crowd. You keep telling people that they are "selfish" and "don't care about cachers". You don't get! It's the side game they don't care about. They do care about cachers - they care that the cachers hunting their caches have accurate info about that cache - that's what responsible cache owners do.

Things change. I was FTF on a trad cache that's now a virtual find (way back then you could do that). When film cans were first being used, they were hard to find, now they're not so tough. When nano's were first coming out, people expect them to be rated at least D3, now some are D1. Learn to live with change - it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Assigning derogitory labels ("selfish") to others who don't agree with you does nothing to help your argument, or get support to your point of view.

22k · March 28, 2013

I really have to laugh at the "you can't change D/T because of side games" crowd. You keep telling people that they are "selfish" and "don't care about cachers". You don't get! It's the side game they don't care about. They do care about cachers - they care that the cachers hunting their caches have accurate info about that cache - that's what responsible cache owners do.

Things change. I was FTF on a trad cache that's now a virtual find (way back then you could do that). When film cans were first being used, they were hard to find, now they're not so tough. When nano's were first coming out, people expect them to be rated at least D3, now some are D1. Learn to live with change - it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Assigning derogitory labels ("selfish") to others who don't agree with you does nothing to help your argument, or get support to your point of view.

I know, but the fact is stats are a huge part of this game. Maintaining the records that show your efforts is not unreasonable. Personally I think site changes to maintain stats is a smaller effort than convincing everyone not to care so much.

edit: then/than

Edited March 28, 2013 by BlueDeuce

3.1k · March 28, 2013

I really have to laugh at the "you can't change D/T because of side games" crowd. You keep telling people that they are "selfish" and "don't care about cachers". You don't get! It's the side game they don't care about. They do care about cachers - they care that the cachers hunting their caches have accurate info about that cache - that's what responsible cache owners do.

Things change. I was FTF on a trad cache that's now a virtual find (way back then you could do that). When film cans were first being used, they were hard to find, now they're not so tough. When nano's were first coming out, people expect them to be rated at least D3, now some are D1. Learn to live with change - it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Assigning derogitory labels ("selfish") to others who don't agree with you does nothing to help your argument, or get support to your point of view.

I know, but the fact is stats are a huge part of this game. Maintaining the records that show your efforts is not unreasonable. Personally I think site changes to maintain stats is a smaller effort than convincing everyone not to care so much.

edit: then/than

If TPTB decide to make it possible to "lock in" your D/T combos and/or other stats like your milestones, it could work.

But to call owners selfish for using the descriptors thoughtfully is misguided.

Again, if it is a grid you want, find some more caches!

5k · March 28, 2013

I really have to laugh at the "you can't change D/T because of side games" crowd. You keep telling people that they are "selfish" and "don't care about cachers". You don't get! It's the side game they don't care about. They do care about cachers - they care that the cachers hunting their caches have accurate info about that cache - that's what responsible cache owners do.

Things change. I was FTF on a trad cache that's now a virtual find (way back then you could do that). When film cans were first being used, they were hard to find, now they're not so tough. When nano's were first coming out, people expect them to be rated at least D3, now some are D1. Learn to live with change - it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Assigning derogitory labels ("selfish") to others who don't agree with you does nothing to help your argument, or get support to your point of view.

I know, but the fact is stats are a huge part of this game. Maintaining the records that show your efforts is not unreasonable. Personally I think site changes to maintain stats is a smaller effort than convincing everyone not to care so much.

edit: then/than

Thank you. Not all of us are trying to fill the grid or finish a challenge. I'm trying to raise the bar on the quality and the terrain of the caches that I find. Finding out that a 3 or 4T cache that I found five years ago is now recorded in my stats as a 1.5 just doesn't sit right with me. A programming solution that locks in the ratings would be the best answer.

7.5k · March 28, 2013

If you have a rare D/T combo chances are most people finding your cache do so for the rating and changing it obviously shows you do not care. If a cache changed drastically enough like a road being built eliminating a long, tough hike the right thing to do would be to put out a new cache and archive the old one and if it was a minor change why mess with it at all.

I like to thing people are finding my caches because they will enjoy the experience - the hike, the scenery, the history, etc. Not because they are playing a silly side game (and I have no idea what the "rare" combos are).

There are examples of hiders listing caches incorrectly on purpose to provide their friends and others those "rare" combos. How is that being considerate of the bulk of cachers who want accurate D/T ratings so they know if they can get to the cache? Those are the inconsiderate hiders.

I agree with BBWolf.

Groundspeak needs to stop sanctioning that side game. More and more caches are being hidden and manipulated solely to play the challenge game.

Why. Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean thousands of others don't, it's the diverse ways of playing that makes Geocaching fun for so many.

That is just a selfish post IMHO.

It's not a matter of enjoying the challenge caches, it's about how they are changing the gameplay. When people start considering not changing D/T ratings (or fudging D/T ratings) because it may effect someone's grid then it starts to make DT ratings not useful. But because GS sanctions challenge caches (it's not a side game anymore) stats are becoming more and more important. I can see how some COs would not touch the DT ratings because it will upset a lot of people.

Edited March 28, 2013 by L0ne R

1.6k · March 28, 2013

Thank you. Not all of us are trying to fill the grid or finish a challenge. I'm trying to raise the bar on the quality and the terrain of the caches that I find. Finding out that a 3 or 4T cache that I found five years ago is now recorded in my stats as a 1.5 just doesn't sit right with me. A programming solution that locks in the ratings would be the best answer.

The only way it would be useful & theoretically 'right' - is if you could lock in the ratings for YOU and YOU ONLY.

And maybe the word 'lock in' isn't the right way to call it....but rather a 'disconnection' between your FIND log and the current cache details. In other words... after you FIND a cache, any details that are changed on the cache page will not carry-over into your stats since it was prior to the changes.

This would make everyone happy.....the stats folks AND still be able to change D/T ratings when necessary.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Lieblweb

2.8k · March 28, 2013

I really have to laugh at the "you can't change D/T because of side games" crowd. You keep telling people that they are "selfish" and "don't care about cachers". You don't get! It's the side game they don't care about. They do care about cachers - they care that the cachers hunting their caches have accurate info about that cache - that's what responsible cache owners do.

Things change. I was FTF on a trad cache that's now a virtual find (way back then you could do that). When film cans were first being used, they were hard to find, now they're not so tough. When nano's were first coming out, people expect them to be rated at least D3, now some are D1. Learn to live with change - it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Assigning derogitory labels ("selfish") to others who don't agree with you does nothing to help your argument, or get support to your point of view.

I know, but the fact is stats are a huge part of this game. Maintaining the records that show your efforts is not unreasonable. Personally I think site changes to maintain stats is a smaller effort than convincing everyone not to care so much.

edit: then/than

If TPTB decide to make it possible to "lock in" your D/T combos and/or other stats like your milestones, it could work.

But to call owners selfish for using the descriptors thoughtfully is misguided.

Again, if it is a grid you want, find some more caches!

I'm calling the attitude off tte people posting they don't care if it affects others selfish.

2.8k · March 28, 2013

Wow, Roman!, I didn't think that my reasonable post would merit such harsh criticism.

When I started caching, I wanted to complete the fizzy at some point. However, I didn't want to do it to log a cache, I just wanted to eventually be able to pat myself on the back for being a "well-rounded cacher". My mentality was that I would have to pick up a couple of each D/T combo to account for the changes that are made to cache listings.

I think this is a classic example of caching eras. There really weren't many "challenge cache" listings out when I began caching. It wasn't until the ALR boom that they really made seeking a specific D/T combo a "need" for cachers. Now, with cachers who were "born" into this era of caching, achieving all 81 combos is viewed as an achievement that is obtained as quickly as possible.

The fact is, so long as challenge caches us metrics containing items that might change, your grid might change. D/T were not designed for grids to be completed. Dates that a cache was hidden at the location were not designed for a side game. Completing these challenges might be challenging. Finding a "rare" combo is a challenge. Finding enough caches to complete a grid is a challenge. Finding enough combos to assure that you can qualify for a challenge cache is a challenge.

A challenge cache that includes all 81 d/t combos is a challenge to complete. Not recognizing that a cache owner has the ability and right to adjust the D/T of their caches is a problem. (Yes, yes, present all of the extreme cases you want. You know what I mean, and you're just tempted to be argumentative)

Again, if you want to find all 81 combos, great! Just be prepared for the rare instance where a combo is changed by an owner. They're called challenges for a reason.

I was commenting on the multiple posts saying who cares about someone else's grids. My point is that if you have a rare combo a good number of you finders will have sought out your cache for that very reason. Changing the rating is inconsiderate and may net you some nasty feedback.

I feel the posters saying tough luck are selfish and don't care about others or how others enjoy the game.

How am I supposed to know why each person visits my cache? If I legitimately change the D/T ratings I'm not doing it to mess up someone's grid or somehow lessen someone's enjoyment of the game. You can't call me selfish if I don't even know that CacherX really really needed that D/T combo and now he's missing it from his grid and can't log that challenge cache 75 miles away that I also don't know about...

Easy, you'll see logs like "thanks, drove 50 mile specifically to find this cache to help me fill in my D/T grid"

When you own a cache with a rare D/T combo you know it.

2.8k · March 28, 2013

I'm calling the attitude off tte people posting they don't care if it affects others selfish.

Yep, that's me, selfish. Hidden over 200 caches for others to find. Hosted dozens of events. Gave away hundreds of dollars in prizes (and that's out of my wallet) at said events. Yep...selfish.

March 28, 2013

Easy, you'll see logs like "thanks, drove 50 mile specifically to find this cache to help me fill in my D/T grid"

When you own a cache with a rare D/T combo you know it.

Mmmkay...in that case, I would consider that person's grid versus the other 100 people who logged the find, because when I archive the cache and relist the exact same container and hide in order to change the D/T, they are all going to drive over for a "new hide" and be just as angry that they wasted the gas.

18.9k · March 28, 2013

....

When you own a cache with a rare D/T combo you know it.

For the benefit of those of us with 10+ years of experience and 160+ hides and have no clue, can you spell out the 'rare' ones?? I've honestly never seen a log on any of my caches about it helping to fill in the grid. So no - I really don't know if I have one.

5k · March 28, 2013

Thank you. Not all of us are trying to fill the grid or finish a challenge. I'm trying to raise the bar on the quality and the terrain of the caches that I find. Finding out that a 3 or 4T cache that I found five years ago is now recorded in my stats as a 1.5 just doesn't sit right with me. A programming solution that locks in the ratings would be the best answer.

The only way it would be useful & theoretically 'right' - is if you could lock in the ratings for YOU and YOU ONLY.

And maybe the word 'lock in' isn't the right way to call it....but rather a 'disconnection' between your FIND log and the current cache details. In other words... after you FIND a cache, any details that are changed on the cache page will not carry-over into your stats since it was prior to the changes.

This would make everyone happy.....the stats folks AND still be able to change D/T ratings when necessary.

When you put my reply in context to what I was replying to, it obviously makes sense what I was trying to say. But, thank you for shouting at me as you corrected me. It brought me back 40 years to that mean piece of work that called herself a teacher. I'll go sit in the corner now.

2.7k · March 28, 2013

So, if I label my film canister under a lamp post skirt at Big*Box parking lot with a D5/T4.5, will I get lots of favorites and praises for helping grid chasers fill in the "rarest" of the combos? Or will most cachers' logs note that the D/T ratings aren't correct?

3.1k · March 28, 2013

So, if I label my film canister under a lamp post skirt at Big*Box parking lot with a D5/T4.5, will I get lots of favorites and praises for helping grid chasers fill in the "rarest" of the combos? Or will most cachers' logs note that the D/T ratings aren't correct?

I think you'll mostly see "TFTC"... <_<

5.6k · March 28, 2013

Thank you. Not all of us are trying to fill the grid or finish a challenge. I'm trying to raise the bar on the quality and the terrain of the caches that I find. Finding out that a 3 or 4T cache that I found five years ago is now recorded in my stats as a 1.5 just doesn't sit right with me. A programming solution that locks in the ratings would be the best answer.

The only way it would be useful & theoretically 'right' - is if you could lock in the ratings for YOU and YOU ONLY.

And maybe the word 'lock in' isn't the right way to call it....but rather a 'disconnection' between your FIND log and the current cache details. In other words... after you FIND a cache, any details that are changed on the cache page will not carry-over into your stats since it was prior to the changes.

This would make everyone happy.....the stats folks AND still be able to change D/T ratings when necessary.

You may not know it, but you can do that with GSAK (and use the FindStatGen macro for the the stats). People do it for moving caches (so they don't get 'credit' for states they haven't cached in, but the moving cache is now there). I"ve been tempted to do that for the cache that I found as a trad which is now a virtual (but it's not that big a deal to me).

5.6k · March 28, 2013

I really have to laugh at the "you can't change D/T because of side games" crowd. You keep telling people that they are "selfish" and "don't care about cachers". You don't get! It's the side game they don't care about. They do care about cachers - they care that the cachers hunting their caches have accurate info about that cache - that's what responsible cache owners do.

Things change. I was FTF on a trad cache that's now a virtual find (way back then you could do that). When film cans were first being used, they were hard to find, now they're not so tough. When nano's were first coming out, people expect them to be rated at least D3, now some are D1. Learn to live with change - it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Assigning derogitory labels ("selfish") to others who don't agree with you does nothing to help your argument, or get support to your point of view.

I know, but the fact is stats are a huge part of this game. Maintaining the records that show your efforts is not unreasonable. Personally I think site changes to maintain stats is a smaller effort than convincing everyone not to care so much.

edit: then/than

If TPTB decide to make it possible to "lock in" your D/T combos and/or other stats like your milestones, it could work.

But to call owners selfish for using the descriptors thoughtfully is misguided.

Again, if it is a grid you want, find some more caches!

I'm calling the attitude off tte people posting they don't care if it affects others selfish.

Of course, you recognize that you are being selfish with that attitude? "Your changing the D/T for accurate info for finders is messing up MY grid!" Seems to define selfish to me.

5k · March 29, 2013

Thank you. Not all of us are trying to fill the grid or finish a challenge. I'm trying to raise the bar on the quality and the terrain of the caches that I find. Finding out that a 3 or 4T cache that I found five years ago is now recorded in my stats as a 1.5 just doesn't sit right with me. A programming solution that locks in the ratings would be the best answer.

The only way it would be useful & theoretically 'right' - is if you could lock in the ratings for YOU and YOU ONLY.

And maybe the word 'lock in' isn't the right way to call it....but rather a 'disconnection' between your FIND log and the current cache details. In other words... after you FIND a cache, any details that are changed on the cache page will not carry-over into your stats since it was prior to the changes.

This would make everyone happy.....the stats folks AND still be able to change D/T ratings when necessary.

You may not know it, but you can do that with GSAK (and use the FindStatGen macro for the the stats). People do it for moving caches (so they don't get 'credit' for states they haven't cached in, but the moving cache is now there). I"ve been tempted to do that for the cache that I found as a trad which is now a virtual (but it's not that big a deal to me).

Correcting coordinates, such as changing the coordinates of a moving or locationless cache to the actual location that you found them, automatically locks the location field. It is impossible to lock any other individual field, such as D/T. You can lock the entire cache, but that prevents any update from happening, such as status.

What can be done is to create and save a Load Settings for use just when you load your My Finds PQ to update your Finds database. In the Load Settings, you can lock individual fields.

2.8k · March 29, 2013

I really have to laugh at the "you can't change D/T because of side games" crowd. You keep telling people that they are "selfish" and "don't care about cachers". You don't get! It's the side game they don't care about. They do care about cachers - they care that the cachers hunting their caches have accurate info about that cache - that's what responsible cache owners do.

Things change. I was FTF on a trad cache that's now a virtual find (way back then you could do that). When film cans were first being used, they were hard to find, now they're not so tough. When nano's were first coming out, people expect them to be rated at least D3, now some are D1. Learn to live with change - it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Assigning derogitory labels ("selfish") to others who don't agree with you does nothing to help your argument, or get support to your point of view.

I know, but the fact is stats are a huge part of this game. Maintaining the records that show your efforts is not unreasonable. Personally I think site changes to maintain stats is a smaller effort than convincing everyone not to care so much.

edit: then/than

If TPTB decide to make it possible to "lock in" your D/T combos and/or other stats like your milestones, it could work.

But to call owners selfish for using the descriptors thoughtfully is misguided.

Again, if it is a grid you want, find some more caches!

I'm calling the attitude off tte people posting they don't care if it affects others selfish.

Of course, you recognize that you are being selfish with that attitude? "Your changing the D/T for accurate info for finders is messing up MY grid!" Seems to define selfish to me.

Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others.

You place a cache on top of a mountain that's a 12 hour round trip hike with a 3000' elevation gain. You make it a T4 1/2.

It's a bison tube in a tree amongst 50 other trees within 10 meters of GZ. You make it a D4 1/2.

There are no other caches with that combo within 100 miles.

Over a few years 50 cachers find it, some travel a long ways for the fact it is a 4.5/4.5.

Suddenly a road is built to the top and the only tree left standing is the one with your cache so you change it to a 1.5/1.5, yes, by definition you are selfish.

Me, I'm not, I'd archive the cache and if the area was still worthy I place a new one with the currently appropriate rating.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Roman!

2.8k · March 29, 2013

For those that have no clue how changing a D/T combo affects other people have a look at the last 3 logs of this cache

18.9k · March 29, 2013

....

Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others.

You place a cache on top of a mountain that's a 12 hour round trip hike with a 3000' elevation gain. You make it a T4 1/2.

It's a bison tube in a tree amongst 50 other trees within 10 meters of GZ. You make it a D4 1/2.

There are no other caches with that combo within 100 miles.

Over a few years 50 cachers find it, some travel a long ways for the fact it is a 4.5/4.5.

Suddenly a road is built to the top and the only tree left standing is the one with your cache so you change it to a 1.5/1.5, yes, by definition you are selfish.

Me, I'm not, I'd archive the cache and if the area was still worthy I place a new one with the currently appropriate rating.

Just how is changing the d/t for the accuracy of future finders - "placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others"? <_<

1.2k · March 29, 2013

I suppose if someone used my name in one of those cache hider name challenges then I am barred from ever changing my cacher name?

5.7k · March 29, 2013

I have no problem with a cache owner fine tuning any attributes of a cache, including the rating, description, or hint.

When the nature of a hide itself change, be it the location, camo, surroundings, etc., I would rather see the old listing archived and a new one created rather than making major (MAGOR?) changes.

5.6k · March 29, 2013

Of course, you recognize that you are being selfish with that attitude? "Your changing the D/T for accurate info for finders is messing up MY grid!" Seems to define selfish to me.

Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others.

You place a cache on top of a mountain that's a 12 hour round trip hike with a 3000' elevation gain. You make it a T4 1/2.

It's a bison tube in a tree amongst 50 other trees within 10 meters of GZ. You make it a D4 1/2.

There are no other caches with that combo within 100 miles.

Over a few years 50 cachers find it, some travel a long ways for the fact it is a 4.5/4.5.

Suddenly a road is built to the top and the only tree left standing is the one with your cache so you change it to a 1.5/1.5, yes, by definition you are selfish.

Me, I'm not, I'd archive the cache and if the area was still worthy I place a new one with the currently appropriate rating.

Thanks for agreeing with me! "Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests" (my grid is being messed with!) "above the well-being or interests of others" (accurate info for finders). Like I said, you define selfishness very well.

March 29, 2013

For those that have no clue how changing a D/T combo affects other people have a look at the last 3 logs of this cache

You and they seemed to have a great time finding the cache. Maybe the challenge shouldn't be just filling the grid but keeping it full? I mean, once you are done...then what do you do, anyway? Stop caching?

5.6k · March 29, 2013

It's not a matter of enjoying the challenge caches, it's about how they are changing the gameplay. When people start considering not changing D/T ratings (or fudging D/T ratings) because it may effect someone's grid then it starts to make DT ratings not useful. But because GS sanctions challenge caches (it's not a side game anymore) stats are becoming more and more important. I can see how some COs would not touch the DT ratings because it will upset a lot of people.

The core of geocaching is finding caches. Anything beyond that is a "side game" - whether it's the FTF race, record finds in a day, filling map units (delorme/county) or filling some 'grid' (D/T, hide per month (jasmer), find each calendar day, etc.).

March 30, 2013

Lets get down to the bottom of all this:

-- Difficulty ratings are subject to change. There is no rule by GS to rate a cache a certain way, it is the honor system.

-- Difficulty ratings are important to SOME number of geocachers.

-- Grid chasing geocachers ASK but do NOT demand that if you are going to change a rating (especially the higher start count caches) just be careful and thorough about it. To please remember that for some it may impact them. However, they understand fully if it has to happen.

-- that many enjoy the game differently. We all must live with the decisions of other players and are free to make our moves and play as we see fit and really don't have any say in how others play. But we appreciate when we share our feelings on certain aspects that folks respect that point-of-view as just that...a point of view.

1.8k · March 30, 2013

Numerous good points on both sides of the arguement.

What chips the concrete is this scenario.

Grid filled. The hunt for related Challenge Caches.

Challenges Caches logged as completed / found.

Grid suddenly begins to show holes due to changed D/T ratings.

Cache Owners for the various challenges begin deleting completion logs. Because of holes appearing in the grid.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Bite the bullet and fill the hole(s) once again.

Return to the site of a Challenge Cache to sign the log one more time because the CO would not re-instate the earlier log and demands a new signature. Riiiiggghhht a 6,000 mile plane ride to Great Britain to resign a previously signed log. SAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY WHAAAAAAATTTTT.

In my case I have decided to bite the bullet and double / tripple up to have a buffer, however, not everyone may have the luxury of rarer combinations in their backyards.

Edited March 30, 2013 by humboldt flier

1.8k · March 30, 2013

Fortunately:

Developers of the various Challenges realize "problems" occur and are willing to work with cachers who happen to find themselves in the changed D/T holey grid situation.

1.8k · March 30, 2013

double post

Edited March 30, 2013 by humboldt flier

2.8k · March 30, 2013

Cache Owners for the various challenges begin deleting completion logs. Because of holes appearing in the grid.

I would hope the Challenge Owners would not delete a completion log if the grid changes *after* the log was posted!

5k · March 30, 2013

Cache Owners for the various challenges begin deleting completion logs. Because of holes appearing in the grid.

I would hope the Challenge Owners would not delete a completion log if the grid changes *after* the log was posted!

Challenge cache owners are supposed to verify that the challenge was completed. If it was completed, verified and accepted, they have no business deleting a found log later down the line. I think that Groundspeak would quickly reverse that, unless of course, the CO was French.

If I run a four minute mile, I've met that challenge. Just because I can't do it ten years later doesn't mean that I haven't run a four minute mile. Once a challenge has been met, it's been met, You can't take the accomplishment away and I would hope that Groundspeak would step in if people started playing such silly games.

1.1k · March 30, 2013

Lets get down to the bottom of all this:

-- Difficulty ratings are subject to change. There is no rule by GS to rate a cache a certain way, it is the honor system.

-- Difficulty ratings are important to SOME number of geocachers.

-- Grid chasing geocachers ASK but do NOT demand that if you are going to change a rating (especially the higher start count caches) just be careful and thorough about it. To please remember that for some it may impact them. However, they understand fully if it has to happen.

-- that many enjoy the game differently. We all must live with the decisions of other players and are free to make our moves and play as we see fit and really don't have any say in how others play. But we appreciate when we share our feelings on certain aspects that folks respect that point-of-view as just that...a point of view.

Hey! Who let this guy bring common sense into the forums? Who was supposed to be watching the door? :lol:

2.8k · March 30, 2013

Lets get down to the bottom of all this:

-- Difficulty ratings are subject to change. There is no rule by GS to rate a cache a certain way, it is the honor system.

-- Difficulty ratings are important to SOME number of geocachers.

-- Grid chasing geocachers ASK but do NOT demand that if you are going to change a rating (especially the higher start count caches) just be careful and thorough about it. To please remember that for some it may impact them. However, they understand fully if it has to happen.

-- that many enjoy the game differently. We all must live with the decisions of other players and are free to make our moves and play as we see fit and really don't have any say in how others play. But we appreciate when we share our feelings on certain aspects that folks respect that point-of-view as just that...a point of view.

Hey! Who let this guy bring common sense into the forums? Who was supposed to be watching the door?

Really, there's no place for that here.

As posted wrongly by many, the D/T grid is not a side game, it is in fact one of the few stats supported by Groundspeak so all arguments based on this misconception are moot and I win.

2.7k · March 30, 2013

The SIDE GAME of filling some chart with stats shown from the GC site is played by some cachers. Those who play this SIDE GAME exhibit selfishness when they complain about a CO adjusting the ratings of a cache to fit the current situation at the cache. Would those 'grid-chasers' be equally upset if a cache they had previously found was changed to fill an empty space of their grid? Of course not, a change like that would benefit them. :rolleyes:

3.1k · March 30, 2013

Lets get down to the bottom of all this:

-- Difficulty ratings are subject to change. There is no rule by GS to rate a cache a certain way, it is the honor system.

-- Difficulty ratings are important to SOME number of geocachers.

-- Grid chasing geocachers ASK but do NOT demand that if you are going to change a rating (especially the higher start count caches) just be careful and thorough about it. To please remember that for some it may impact them. However, they understand fully if it has to happen.

-- that many enjoy the game differently. We all must live with the decisions of other players and are free to make our moves and play as we see fit and really don't have any say in how others play. But we appreciate when we share our feelings on certain aspects that folks respect that point-of-view as just that...a point of view.

Hey! Who let this guy bring common sense into the forums? Who was supposed to be watching the door?

Really, there's no place for that here.

As posted wrongly by many, the D/T grid is not a side game, it is in fact one of the few stats supported by Groundspeak so all arguments based on this misconception are moot and I win.

The existence of visible stats on one's profile does not indicate that the grid exists to complete challenge caches.

The stats are there to be viewed or used as an owner sees fit. One can even hide their stats.

By your rationale, Roman, if my stats are hidden, I can't claim I've completed a challenge cache.

Challenge caches are a side game. One does not have to find every cache out there, right? I can choose to complete the requirements for the challenge and log the cache, or not. If my grid is visible in my profile or not does not keep me from logging a challenge cache.

Aaaaaand, the 3 logs you mention above are still a "found it" for the cache. They (and you) "refilled" your grid by doing what everyone can do: find another cache! :anibad:

1.8k · March 30, 2013

There are plenty of nasty barbs being thrown here ... my back has gotten up a number of times.

In the words of that "Great American Philosopher", Rodney King, "why cain't we all get along".

1.2k · March 30, 2013

I hereby serve notice that all my cache difficulty and terrain ratings are subject to adjustment due to a variety of reasons. Finders who rely upon those ratings for qualification for any challenge purposes do so at their own peril.

15.3k · March 30, 2013

In the words of that "Great American Philosopher", Rodney King, "why cain't we all get along".

Because some of us consider difficulty and terrain ratings to be a communication tool, and when we use them as such, we get grief from those who consider difficulty and terrain ratings to be something finders can earn. The two views of difficulty and terrain ratings are rather incompatible.

1.6k · March 30, 2013

When you put my reply in context to what I was replying to, it obviously makes sense what I was trying to say. But, thank you for shouting at me as you corrected me. It brought me back 40 years to that mean piece of work that called herself a teacher. I'll go sit in the corner now.

Wait...what? I have no idea what you just said...

3.1k · March 31, 2013

I hereby serve notice that all my cache difficulty and terrain ratings are subject to adjustment due to a variety of reasons. Finders who rely upon those ratings for qualification for any challenge purposes do so at their own peril.

:laughing:

Made me think of this clip

http://www.youtube.com/embed/hiCilTzhXrA

Back on topic, I think that all cache owners should feel welcome to do as you declare above without having to shout it from the hilltops. (Or forums...)

Edited March 31, 2013 by NeverSummer

5k · March 31, 2013

When you put my reply in context to what I was replying to, it obviously makes sense what I was trying to say. But, thank you for shouting at me as you corrected me. It brought me back 40 years to that mean piece of work that called herself a teacher. I'll go sit in the corner now.

Wait...what? I have no idea what you just said...

I apologize because I am certain that it wasn't your intention, but I felt like I was being scolded. You need to be careful when you type in all caps. Perhaps a bold, underlined or italicized format would have conveyed emphasis without making me feel like you were shouting.

7.9k · March 31, 2013

I hereby serve notice that all my cache difficulty and terrain ratings are subject to adjustment due to a variety of reasons. Finders who rely upon those ratings for qualification for any challenge purposes do so at their own peril.

+1

I (and my cache listings) will NOT be held hostage due to being used to fill in a D/T grid.

Even so, if you feel the D/T rating on one (or more) of my caches is REQUIRED to remain unchanged to facilitate a filled grid for you, let me know and I will prepare a PayPal invoice for you. :lol:

5k · March 31, 2013

In the words of that "Great American Philosopher", Rodney King, "why cain't we all get along".
Because some of us consider difficulty and terrain ratings to be a communication tool, and when we use them as such, we get grief from those who consider difficulty and terrain ratings to be something finders can earn. The two views of difficulty and terrain ratings are rather incompatible.

It's tough when you understand and agree with both sides on an issue. In the end, I have to agree that cache listings should be accurate.

Imagine the ruckus I can create if I moved my GCYJ1W 100' and updated the coordinates... Especially as it is the closest qualifier for a new challenge cache in the area.

3.8k · April 1, 2013

I just posted this response to another thread. I think it also fits here.

I think the ratings should accurately, as close as possible, represent the difficulty of the cache. If something changes that effects that difficulty the ratings should be changed to match. The ratings are not there to help fill out the grid for challenges. They are there to inform people how difficult the cache is to approach and to find.

Fully agreed - who cares if it messes with stats if it accurately reflects the D/T of the cache.

The ratings of a cache should always be accurate as possible. Your stats are not my problem. I would not be opposed to storing a rating at time of find, but the currently listed ratings should be accurate as possible regardless of how anyone wants to play the game.

3.8k · April 1, 2013

If you have a rare D/T combo chances are most people finding your cache do so for the rating and changing it obviously shows you do not care. If a cache changed drastically enough like a road being built eliminating a long, tough hike the right thing to do would be to put out a new cache and archive the old one and if it was a minor change why mess with it at all.

Actually, doesn't this prove that YOU don't care about the integrity of cache listings?

Edited April 1, 2013 by bflentje

1.6k · April 2, 2013

I apologize because I am certain that it wasn't your intention, but I felt like I was being scolded. You need to be careful when you type in all caps. Perhaps a bold, underlined or italicized format would have conveyed emphasis without making me feel like you were shouting.

(trying to remember what I has typed)

I was simply trying to explain the concept of 'disconnecting' the data (cache page data) from a persons stats and/or find log.

You really shouldn't take the caps so seriously. Or drink a beer while reading forums. :anitongue:

When a CO changes the D/T on a cache...

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