+redsox_mark Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 While I see the logic in the OP, I'm not sure this is needed. People who think they may like FTFs will try for them. People who don't like the idea won't. In my area I generally don't see any drama around FTFs. Some cachers enjoy it, some don't care. What people who play the FTF game do not like is when they don't get a chance to be first (e.g. you let your friend find it and sign prior to publication). Whether that becomes a drama or just a minor annoyance depends on the individuals involved. So I see no point trying to get people who aren't interested in FTF themselves to understand why others are. I would like that cache owners recognize that many play and enjoy the FTF game. So while as a cache owner you have a right to give your friend the coordinates first, that will cause some level of annoyance for those trying for FTF. And if you put a big banner on your page congratulating your friend for FTF it will cause increased annoyance; possibly drama. FTF is an unofficial game, though there are 21 different FTF products in the Groundspeak shop.. including this fine shirt Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) Here's a side game that I like to play. Before I submit a cache listing for a new cache that I've placed I give the coordinates to my best friend so he can find the cache before it's published and everyone else gets the coordinates. Then I like to put a scrolling marquee on the cache listing congratulating my friend on FTF. If that's what you wish to do, then fair enough. It seems a bit odd to congratulate your friend though? It's nice that they get to see the cache first, but surely they don't feel any achievement from being FTF. Imagine you decide to organise a running race, but you only reveal the course to one person before the official start time. They then run the course. Would you then say they have won? I'm glad that you put the marquee on there before the cache is published. I would be really annoyed and disappointed if I dashed out to try and get a FTF, only to find your friend's name already on the log. You have to understand that there are two different attitudes towards a FTF. One is that it is a simple statement of fact about an event that occurred. The other is that it is a race that has a starting point, (the moment the reviewer presses Publish), and a winner. NYPC is would be posting a statement of fact on his page. Edited March 19, 2013 by Don_J Quote Link to comment
+Planet Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I don't care about being FTF, and I don't think I have ever congratulated anyone for being FTF on one of my caches. I would have to check. I certainly don't edit the page and make any kind of announcement about it. If someone wants to know who did, the logs are right there on the cache page to look at. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Walk a month in FTF Hound Shoes I'd rather staple myself to a rabid camel. At least that trip would be interesting. Quote Link to comment
+Off Grid Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Playing ftf is over rated In your opinion. Some people enjoy playing FTF. I keep seeing this debate over FTF, with the people who don't like it slating those who do. I was annoyed for a while when I was losing out to FTF hounds and it took me ages to get my first one. I just had to up my game and be patient. Once I'd done this, I got three within a short space of time. Now that I have five, I can take it or leave it to some extent. If you think FTF is overated, just let people get on with it. There must be other threads which you ARE interested in reading. I'm not bothered about multi-caches, but it wouldn't be very helpful to comment, "multi-caches are overated" on a thread about those. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just that your comment seemed somewhat dismissive. Well puzzles are another over rated one to. I'm not annoyed at all from the beginning ftf in my opinion have been over rated. Grown adults fight over who was the first one to a Tupper ware container..you have ftf party's at the cache for an hour or so.. Grownups also fight over who can run a certain distance the fastest,,,kick a ball into a goal most often...move a gamepiece across a board before anyone else. It's like any other game. Why should FTF hounds be criticized for playing an aspect of the game, where no one would consider the same criticism of the people who play the sports/games I mentiond above. If you don't enjoy watching or participating in soccer...you just don't play it or watch it. Why can't people do the same with the side issue/game of FTF? we don't need adult high school drama Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) we don't need adult high school drama Nevermind... Edited March 20, 2013 by NeverSummer Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Grownups also fight over who can run a certain distance the fastest,,,kick a ball into a goal most often...move a gamepiece across a board before anyone else. It's like any other game. Why should FTF hounds be criticized for playing an aspect of the game, where no one would consider the same criticism of the people who play the sports/games I mentiond above. If you don't enjoy watching or participating in soccer...you just don't play it or watch it. Why can't people do the same with the side issue/game of FTF? we don't need adult high school drama Exactly. For each of the other activities PC Painter mentioned, there are rigidly defined rules in place, and a process to ensure they are enforced. You will never see two people arguing over who won a particular Stupidbowl. (Though, they may argue over corrupt and/or blind referees) Because of these rules, and advances in technology which allow the officiating persons to make hopefully accurate rulings, the winner is generally pretty clear cut. But the FTF drama has no rules, no defined process, no officiating panel making decisions. Each person who participates in this oh so annoying aspect of this hobby does so by their own invented rules. The two are hardly compatible. Quote Link to comment
+Roman! Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Grownups also fight over who can run a certain distance the fastest,,,kick a ball into a goal most often...move a gamepiece across a board before anyone else. It's like any other game. Why should FTF hounds be criticized for playing an aspect of the game, where no one would consider the same criticism of the people who play the sports/games I mentiond above. If you don't enjoy watching or participating in soccer...you just don't play it or watch it. Why can't people do the same with the side issue/game of FTF? we don't need adult high school drama Exactly. For each of the other activities PC Painter mentioned, there are rigidly defined rules in place, and a process to ensure they are enforced. You will never see two people arguing over who won a particular Stupidbowl. (Though, they may argue over corrupt and/or blind referees) Because of these rules, and advances in technology which allow the officiating persons to make hopefully accurate rulings, the winner is generally pretty clear cut. But the FTF drama has no rules, no defined process, no officiating panel making decisions. Each person who participates in this oh so annoying aspect of this hobby does so by their own invented rules. The two are hardly compatible. Yet it's much easier to determine an FTF than it is to determine wether a cacher has found a cache or not. Quote Link to comment
+PC Painter Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Playing ftf is over rated In your opinion. Some people enjoy playing FTF. I keep seeing this debate over FTF, with the people who don't like it slating those who do. I was annoyed for a while when I was losing out to FTF hounds and it took me ages to get my first one. I just had to up my game and be patient. Once I'd done this, I got three within a short space of time. Now that I have five, I can take it or leave it to some extent. If you think FTF is overated, just let people get on with it. There must be other threads which you ARE interested in reading. I'm not bothered about multi-caches, but it wouldn't be very helpful to comment, "multi-caches are overated" on a thread about those. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just that your comment seemed somewhat dismissive. Well puzzles are another over rated one to. I'm not annoyed at all from the beginning ftf in my opinion have been over rated. Grown adults fight over who was the first one to a Tupper ware container..you have ftf party's at the cache for an hour or so.. Grownups also fight over who can run a certain distance the fastest,,,kick a ball into a goal most often...move a gamepiece across a board before anyone else. It's like any other game. Why should FTF hounds be criticized for playing an aspect of the game, where no one would consider the same criticism of the people who play the sports/games I mentiond above. If you don't enjoy watching or participating in soccer...you just don't play it or watch it. Why can't people do the same with the side issue/game of FTF? we don't need adult high school drama Well it's a good idea that you alone don't get to decide what we do or do not need. As I stated before...it's not the FTF game that ads the drama...it's some of the people that play the game. If you don't like someone who plays in the NFL because they're a drama queen wanting all the attention and whining when they don't get the ball, you blame the entire game of football. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Yet it's much easier to determine an FTF than it is to determine wether a cacher has found a cache or not. Do tell? By looking at my profile, can you determine either the last FTFs I got or the last caches I found? (They were three, very close to my house) It's kind of a trick question, since I did not log them online. By the lack of signatures on the logs, I suspect I was the first person to locate those three caches. But in looking back on the caches, I see someone else claimed the FTF, presumably since I did not sign the paper logs. If my smarter half decides she wants to take the bikes out for some peddle caching, I'll probably log them then. As I stated before...it's not the FTF game that ads the drama... It could be argued that it is the FTF side game, though, to be more technically precise, I suppose one would add that it is the lack of defined rules/guidelines for the FTF, and how people react to that lack, that lead to the drama. Give folks a set of reasonable guidelines/rules, and the majority will follow. Leave the entire thing up to the individual(s), and they'll each invent their own rules, which invariably will not match the rules followed by someone else. Quote Link to comment
+PC Painter Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Yet it's much easier to determine an FTF than it is to determine wether a cacher has found a cache or not. Do tell? By looking at my profile, can you determine either the last FTFs I got or the last caches I found? (They were three, very close to my house) It's kind of a trick question, since I did not log them online. By the lack of signatures on the logs, I suspect I was the first person to locate those three caches. But in looking back on the caches, I see someone else claimed the FTF, presumably since I did not sign the paper logs. If my smarter half decides she wants to take the bikes out for some peddle caching, I'll probably log them then. As I stated before...it's not the FTF game that ads the drama... It could be argued that it is the FTF side game, though, to be more technically precise, I suppose one would add that it is the lack of defined rules/guidelines for the FTF, and how people react to that lack, that lead to the drama. Give folks a set of reasonable guidelines/rules, and the majority will follow. Leave the entire thing up to the individual(s), and they'll each invent their own rules, which invariably will not match the rules followed by someone else. It's not the game, because you would expect grown adults to be able to have enough self control to play a GAME and not get all stupid and dramatic. It is ENITRELY how PEOPLE act and react within a game that causes drama. Many times you can't control the conditions under which we play...but you CAN control how YOU and you alone act and react to things. Since Groundspeak hasn't taken any steps to disable the ability to log a find before it publishes...and there's no way they can stop someone from physically signing a log before it publishes, then someone who comes across this on their FTF hunt can decide that this is just part of the GAME and move on....or they can decide to make a scene and throw a tantrum. Like I said before....I find it best (and yes, this is just my opinion) to just move on to the next cache. It's not really THAT important in the grand scheme of things. It's fun to try to get there first, if I can...but if there wasn't a good chance that someone else would get there first, then it wouldn't be fun to try. Quote Link to comment
+BBWolf+3Pigs Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Of course, you understand that from their point of view, it's you that are changing the rules. What I don't understand is why anyone would attach so much importance to a such a thing as who found a cache first. What rules? Here's a cache I listed based on a forum post by GOF & Bacall (IIRC): FTF Follies Quote Link to comment
+J Grouchy Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 This has all given me a good idea for a cache...one where FTF will not be celebrated. hmmmm Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It's fun to try to get there first, if I can...but if there wasn't a good chance that someone else would get there first, then it wouldn't be fun to try. Perhaps that is where we differ, my friend. Maybe? You seem to have a touch of competitiveness where this game is concerned, (which is not a bad thing, in and of itself), where I have none. At the end of the day, when the smiley is logged, and the cache owner glows in happy introspection, knowing someone liked their hide, all is well. Quote Link to comment
+Roman! Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Yet it's much easier to determine an FTF than it is to determine wether a cacher has found a cache or not. Do tell? By looking at my profile, can you determine either the last FTFs I got or the last caches I found? (They were three, very close to my house) It's kind of a trick question, since I did not log them online. By the lack of signatures on the logs, I suspect I was the first person to locate those three caches. But in looking back on the caches, I see someone else claimed the FTF, presumably since I did not sign the paper logs. If my smarter half decides she wants to take the bikes out for some peddle caching, I'll probably log them then. You missed my point. Here you can see 45 pages of people that can't tell wether they found a cache or not, generally an FTF thread lasts only a couple of pages. Here's a thread where the OP states in his initial post he didn't find the caches and after several pages there is no agreement wether he should or shouldn't log a find. For the most part it's pretty clear who an FTF was and the only issue is some areas have FTF hounds that like to rub it in and pi$$ people off. You are blaming the game because some people (not most) like to be a**es. IMHO out in the real geocaching world I'd bet there's a lot more drama over wether someone found a cache or didn't and peoples interpretation of what a find is. Edited March 21, 2013 by Roman! Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Yet it's much easier to determine an FTF than it is to determine wether a cacher has found a cache or not. Do tell? By looking at my profile, can you determine either the last FTFs I got or the last caches I found? (They were three, very close to my house) It's kind of a trick question, since I did not log them online. By the lack of signatures on the logs, I suspect I was the first person to locate those three caches. But in looking back on the caches, I see someone else claimed the FTF, presumably since I did not sign the paper logs. If my smarter half decides she wants to take the bikes out for some peddle caching, I'll probably log them then. You missed my point. Here you can see 45 pages of people that can't tell wether they found a cache or not, generally an FTF thread lasts only a couple of pages. While that may be true, it's not uncommon to see several concurrent threads about the FTF game. Here's a thread where the OP states in his initial post he didn't find the caches and after several pages there is no agreement wether he should or shouldn't log a find. Actually that thread was about whether he should log a find *and* about FTF. For the most part it's pretty clear who an FTF was and the only issue is some areas have FTF hounds that like to rub it in and pi$ people off. You are blaming the game because some people (not most) like to be a**es. IMHO out in the real geocaching world I'd bet there's a lot more drama over wether someone found a cache or didn't and peoples interpretation of what a find is. I agree with the Riffster that it's a lack of an authoritative body which has established an agreed upon set of rules about the FTF game that is mostly responsible for geocachers behaving badly. Quote Link to comment
+the4dirtydogs Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I've been out of the chase for a little bit, but I think I'm going to try to bag some FTFs to add to the 745 FTFs that I have now. Guess it's time to break out the ice chest cuz there's usually a few hounds that arrive at GZ around the same time. Just hope I beat them. Quote Link to comment
+PC Painter Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It's fun to try to get there first, if I can...but if there wasn't a good chance that someone else would get there first, then it wouldn't be fun to try. Perhaps that is where we differ, my friend. Maybe? You seem to have a touch of competitiveness where this game is concerned, (which is not a bad thing, in and of itself), where I have none. At the end of the day, when the smiley is logged, and the cache owner glows in happy introspection, knowing someone liked their hide, all is well. I definitely do have a little streak of competitiveness in me, but I keep it in check...because it's just a game...and the best part of it is the adventura and challenge in finding the cache. The next best part is putting out a cool cache, and reading the logs that people really enjoyed it. Many years ago I had one right in our front yard, a huge birdhouse (one of the first birdhouses caches, I think)...and it was stuffed to the gills with swag in a giant ziploc. I always got great responses in my logs, even though it was a 1/1 rated cache. I have a new one out now that has a special feature to it that I haven't seen anyone do before...and I'm waiting very impstiently for more people to find it...lol. Quote Link to comment
+ByronForestPreserve Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Okay, fine. I tried it today. Over a dozen new caches popped up this morning, and six were in a fairly close preserve I hadn't been to before. Geared up, headed out...found four of them as FTF, but then left the other two so as not to be a hog. They were micros in the woods, anyway. I'm sure I could have gotten those other two, but went to another place nearby that had some older, larger caches and a crazy muddy hike along a river instead. Honestly, I was happier knowing that the TBs and coins in three of the caches would definitely be there than I was about signing first on the log. Dunno if I'd go out of my way only for the FTF in the future. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 But the FTF drama has no rules, no defined process, no officiating panel making decisions. AHA! There's the problem! We need slow-motion close-ups of whose finger actually wrapped around the container first! Quote Link to comment
+Off Grid Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Playing ftf is over rated In your opinion. Some people enjoy playing FTF. I keep seeing this debate over FTF, with the people who don't like it slating those who do. I was annoyed for a while when I was losing out to FTF hounds and it took me ages to get my first one. I just had to up my game and be patient. Once I'd done this, I got three within a short space of time. Now that I have five, I can take it or leave it to some extent. If you think FTF is overated, just let people get on with it. There must be other threads which you ARE interested in reading. I'm not bothered about multi-caches, but it wouldn't be very helpful to comment, "multi-caches are overated" on a thread about those. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just that your comment seemed somewhat dismissive. Well puzzles are another over rated one to. I'm not annoyed at all from the beginning ftf in my opinion have been over rated. Grown adults fight over who was the first one to a Tupper ware container..you have ftf party's at the cache for an hour or so.. Grownups also fight over who can run a certain distance the fastest,,,kick a ball into a goal most often...move a gamepiece across a board before anyone else. It's like any other game. Why should FTF hounds be criticized for playing an aspect of the game, where no one would consider the same criticism of the people who play the sports/games I mentiond above. If you don't enjoy watching or participating in soccer...you just don't play it or watch it. Why can't people do the same with the side issue/game of FTF? we don't need adult high school drama Well it's a good idea that you alone don't get to decide what we do or do not need. As I stated before...it's not the FTF game that ads the drama...it's some of the people that play the game. If you don't like someone who plays in the NFL because they're a drama queen wanting all the attention and whining when they don't get the ball, you blame the entire game of football. No you don't blame football you blame them ..Jonathan toews Chicago black hawks biggest baby ever specially during the cup finals against Vancouver did we blame him yes team no hockey no. To me ftf is drama celebrating in front of a cache for hours..yep.. Like highschool hangout Edited March 25, 2013 by Off Grid Quote Link to comment
+Roman! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Playing ftf is over rated In your opinion. Some people enjoy playing FTF. I keep seeing this debate over FTF, with the people who don't like it slating those who do. I was annoyed for a while when I was losing out to FTF hounds and it took me ages to get my first one. I just had to up my game and be patient. Once I'd done this, I got three within a short space of time. Now that I have five, I can take it or leave it to some extent. If you think FTF is overated, just let people get on with it. There must be other threads which you ARE interested in reading. I'm not bothered about multi-caches, but it wouldn't be very helpful to comment, "multi-caches are overated" on a thread about those. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just that your comment seemed somewhat dismissive. Well puzzles are another over rated one to. I'm not annoyed at all from the beginning ftf in my opinion have been over rated. Grown adults fight over who was the first one to a Tupper ware container..you have ftf party's at the cache for an hour or so.. Grownups also fight over who can run a certain distance the fastest,,,kick a ball into a goal most often...move a gamepiece across a board before anyone else. It's like any other game. Why should FTF hounds be criticized for playing an aspect of the game, where no one would consider the same criticism of the people who play the sports/games I mentiond above. If you don't enjoy watching or participating in soccer...you just don't play it or watch it. Why can't people do the same with the side issue/game of FTF? we don't need adult high school drama Well it's a good idea that you alone don't get to decide what we do or do not need. As I stated before...it's not the FTF game that ads the drama...it's some of the people that play the game. If you don't like someone who plays in the NFL because they're a drama queen wanting all the attention and whining when they don't get the ball, you blame the entire game of football. No you don't blame football you blame them ..Jonathan toews Chicago black hawks biggest baby ever specially during the cup finals against Vancouver did we blame him yes team no hockey no. To me ftf is drama celebrating in front of a cache for hours..yep.. Like highschool hangout If someone is celebrating an FTF by the cache for 4 hours it has nothing to do with the FTF game but rather a very disturbed individual who would give a bad name to any game he/she played, obviously you do not know how normal people act when they get an FTF as you're just making stuff up. Edited March 25, 2013 by Roman! Quote Link to comment
+Off Grid Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Yeah cause making stuff up gets people places in life haha...like i always say believe what cha will Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 Okay, fine. I tried it today. Over a dozen new caches popped up this morning, and six were in a fairly close preserve I hadn't been to before. Geared up, headed out...found four of them as FTF, but then left the other two so as not to be a hog. They were micros in the woods, anyway. I'm sure I could have gotten those other two, but went to another place nearby that had some older, larger caches and a crazy muddy hike along a river instead. Honestly, I was happier knowing that the TBs and coins in three of the caches would definitely be there than I was about signing first on the log. Dunno if I'd go out of my way only for the FTF in the future. Okay, fine. :laughing: Sounds like my kids when they have to do what I tell them. :laughing: Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted April 1, 2013 Author Share Posted April 1, 2013 Great, just what we need, a bunch of FTF hound wannabes running willy nilly all over the place. Illegitimate wannabes. Now that's funny. Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 Well, we tried. We were getting ready to go after another cache. Shark was on the phone, so I loaded that cache into Garmin and went to change clothes. Upon return, Ie sat back to check e-mails while waiting for Shark. Hmmm, a new hide just published about the time I went to change (10 minutes ago). I loaded that one and we were out the door (another 5 minute delay...total 15 minutes from publication). We got to GZ just in time to see the FTF team walking back to their cars. We chatted a bit (another minute delay) and then found the cache and noticed they had put a time on their log...14 minutes prior to our find! There are some pretty serious FTFers here. This is going to be tough. It was nice meeting-up with a couple of other cachers at GZ. We'll try again. Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I'm sort of confused. Are you saying that some of us "not into the FTF game" people have never tried it? I did do it, from the day I started, which my profile say's is August 19th, 2003, until about mid-2005. Yes, that is what I'm saying..."some of us". I would suspect that at least a few of you who have been caching for 10 or so years may have given it a whirl. However, I also think that there are many who have not. My reasoning for the thread is to raise hands-on awareness of what drives this side game. I read a lot of analogies regarding why it may appeal to some people and that tells me that some are forming opinions without ever really understanding. I think it's a pretty simple concept to understand, much in the same way that I understand trepanning enough without having to experience it to understand it more completely. Quote Link to comment
+Sharks-N-Beans Posted April 7, 2013 Author Share Posted April 7, 2013 OK, so this morning a new cache was published in a neighboring town at 7:30. We eased out of our slumber around 8:30 and saw our notification at about 9:30. We had coffee, Shark did a load of laundry and Beans posted a few cheesy comments on the forums. Got dressed and were out the door at noon. Signed the log (second to find) at 12:23, one hour after FTF. I'm thinking we did not display the typical FTF hound urgency that it takes. Additionally, we were surprised that we only missed it by 1 hour. Not sure if we would have been doing any kind of FTF happy dance if we had been first 5 hours after publication. Quote Link to comment
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