Logo Usage

[+*GeoPunx*]

This thread is in reference to this page:

Logo Usage

I wanted to get a few(less than 25) stickers made to put on my vehicles, give to friends and to leave in caches.

I took the logo that I wanted from the above referenced page to my local print shop.

The first thing they said was that they wouldn't do it because of the copyright infringement.

I had anticipated that; so I had the text from the webpage printed out for them to read.

Their answer was still no.

Their reason was that if they printed the stickers and then sold them to me; that at that point it turns into a commercial usage.

I disagreed, but did not argue with them, and thought I'd come here to see if maybe I misinterpreted the logo usage page.

The particular part of the page I was looking at was this:

"We are also willing to make allowances for those of you who have creative ideas and want to do something fun for your friends and fellow Geocachers. The Groundspeak Geocaching Logo may be used only on non-commercial items. These items may include, but are not limited to shirts, hats, coins, logbooks, stickers and cache containers. Additionally, the Groundspeak Geocaching logo may not be modified in any way. If the lifetime use of the design is less than 25 units, you may consider permission automatically granted. These items may not, under any circumstance, be sold."

 

Did I misinterpret or did they?

Thanks in advance.

 

Brian

*GeoPunx*

[+StarBrand]

I think the intent was for you not make money off of selling them to fellow cachers not to prevent you from spending money to acquire them.

 

However, I do not blame them for being overtly cautious and not wanting to get into any kind of copyright infringement lawsuit. See if you can do something to create the stickers yourself.

[+TheWeatherWarrior]

Hahaha. I had a shop tell me they wouldn't print a picture because it had a watermark (copyright) on it. The funny part...it was MY watermark/copyright. It just was an older company name and I didn't have any old business cards.

 

For anyone printing GS logo stuff, print out a page (with the URL as a header) that describes the usage allowance and take it with you. Tell them they can look it up on their computers themselves. If they refuse...tell them they lost a customer for life.

 

Copyright is a problem, can't tell ya the "junk" I've dealt with with my storm pictures and video. I still laugh at the youngsters that are convinced everything on the internet is public domain or fair use.

[+kunarion]

The first thing they said was that they wouldn't do it because of the copyright infringement.

It's their business, they know what they're talking about.

 

But a vinyl sticker professionally printed (screen print or whatever) will last a long time, vs. a home computer-printed version. What about public domain versions?

 

Maybe they'd print a few of these for you:

http://bytethebullet.com/geologo/leatherman_variants.htm

 

 

The Leatherman GX Logo has plenty of space for customization. Add cacher or team names, region-specific text or images, to make a nice logo, and print that.

 

 

Or design your own. Try some ideas and print one. Here's a unique logo I made this morning.

 

[AZcachemeister]

...

Their reason was that if they printed the stickers and then sold them to me; that at that point it turns into a commercial usage.

I disagreed, but did not argue with them, and thought I'd come here to see if maybe I misinterpreted the logo usage page.

...

 

The print shop is being overly cautious.

 

If they were to have printed the items, and you happened to walk in and want to buy some, or if they were to advertise they were selling them, they WOULD be liable for legal action. Most likely Groundspeak would just tell them to stop.

 

Since you apparently walked in and said 'Please print some of these', YOU are the liable party if you are caught selling them somewhere down the line.

 

Try another print shop, and don't tell them it's a copyrighted logo!

[+kunarion]

Try another print shop, and don't tell them it's a copyrighted logo!

Yes! That way, they'd never figure it out.

 

Edited March 9, 2013 by kunarion

[+The A-Team]

Here's a unique logo I made this morning.

 

Genius! It accurately depicts the fact that we almost always take the wrong, longer, more difficult route to the cache, then find the easy trail out once we get to GZ!

[GOF and Bacall]

You could write to Groundspeak and ask them for written permission to use the logo in the manner you describe. I don't know if they would, but I don't see why not. Maybe they could fax it right to your printer.

[+kunarion]

It accurately depicts the fact that we almost always take the wrong, longer, more difficult route to the cache, then find the easy trail out once we get to GZ!

In my case, the cache itself isn't even there. I'm way off. The cache is in a completely different logo.

[+kunarion]

You could write to Groundspeak and ask them for written permission to use the logo

That's worth a shot. Some guy mentioned a few caveats and concerns in this post a while back:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=49997&view=findpost&p=572304

 

(That was specifically about coins, but may be good info for this thread anyway)

Edited March 9, 2013 by kunarion

[+*GeoPunx*]

So, I'm gathering that I misinterpreted. That's cool.

But, then the verbiage on the logo usage page should read(bolded part by me),

 

""We are also willing to make allowances for those of you who have creative ideas and want to do something fun for your friends and fellow Geocachers. The Groundspeak Geocaching Logo may be used only on non-commercial items. These items may include, but are not limited to shirts, hats, coins, logbooks, stickers and cache containers(as long as the products are made by you and not by a commercial business). Additionally, the Groundspeak Geocaching logo may not be modified in any way. If the lifetime use of the design is less than 25 units, you may consider permission automatically granted. These items may not, under any circumstance, be sold."

 

It would have saved me a trip if it had read that way. Thanks for the insights.

 

Brian

[Mr.Yuck]

The first thing they said was that they wouldn't do it because of the copyright infringement.

It's their business, they know what they're talking about.

 

But a vinyl sticker professionally printed (screen print or whatever) will last a long time, vs. a home computer-printed version. What about public domain versions?

 

Maybe they'd print a few of these for you:

http://bytethebullet.com/geologo/leatherman_variants.htm

 

 

The Leatherman GX Logo has plenty of space for customization. Add cacher or team names, region-specific text or images, to make a nice logo, and print that.

 

 

You don't hear too much about that lately, but that is indeed the "Leatherman" public domain Geocaching logo, and it's design was hammered out right here in these forums. In 2004, I believe, but don't quote me on that. There are several variants, and you can design your own variant.

 

Are they well recognized? I don't know, but amongst some of us old-timers they are. I use the Leatherman variant as the background image on my Twitter page, as a matter of fact.

 

EDIT: I just looked at my Twitter, and a crisp, clean, uniform width variant of the Leatherman logo.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Mr.Yuck

[GOF and Bacall]

So, I'm gathering that I misinterpreted. That's cool.

But, then the verbiage on the logo usage page should read(bolded part by me),

 

""We are also willing to make allowances for those of you who have creative ideas and want to do something fun for your friends and fellow Geocachers. The Groundspeak Geocaching Logo may be used only on non-commercial items. These items may include, but are not limited to shirts, hats, coins, logbooks, stickers and cache containers(as long as the products are made by you and not by a commercial business). Additionally, the Groundspeak Geocaching logo may not be modified in any way. If the lifetime use of the design is less than 25 units, you may consider permission automatically granted. These items may not, under any circumstance, be sold."

 

It would have saved me a trip if it had read that way. Thanks for the insights.

 

Brian

 

I think it is more the printer erring on the side of caution. Like I said earlier, shoot Groundspeak an email. I bet they help you out with this.

[+kunarion]

that is indeed the "Leatherman" public domain Geocaching logo, and it's design was hammered out right here in these forums. In 2004, I believe, but don't quote me on that. There are several variants, and you can design your own variant.

 

Are they well recognized? I don't know, but amongst some of us old-timers they are. I use the Leatherman variant as the background image on my Twitter page, as a matter of fact.

I stopped using the "official logo", a couple of months after I joined GC, due to the restrictions. I'm not about to keep track of the count (25?) of how many sig items I print (I like to design and print a variety of things), so everything is that Leatherman Logo or variants, or my own ideas. I even designed my own caching mascots, so I don't have to worry about printing "Signal". And I have my own "Travel Bug"-like logo. I get a lot of advice like "Meh, go ahead... that's not what they mean... yeah... you're not selling them...", but I'm way beyond that now with my own designs, and not looking back.

Edited March 9, 2013 by kunarion

[+*GeoPunx*]

Like I said earlier, shoot Groundspeak an email. I bet they help you out with this.

Just did that.

Though, I thought the reason for their logo usage page was to cover not having to answer so many inquiries for this sort of thing.

Thanks again.

[+*GeoPunx*]

I'm way beyond that now with my own designs, and not looking back.

Unfortunately I am artistically and creatively lacking in that dept.

[GOF and Bacall]

Like I said earlier, shoot Groundspeak an email. I bet they help you out with this.

Just did that.

Though, I thought the reason for their logo usage page was to cover not having to answer so many inquiries for this sort of thing.

Thanks again.

 

It is. But if you are having an issue with getting something printed they may be able to help. A quick email or fax from GS should put your printers mind at ease.

[+kunarion]

I'm way beyond that now with my own designs, and not looking back.

Unfortunately I am artistically and creatively lacking in that dept.

If you need stuff added to that way cool "Leatherman G", just let me know! Or ask around, there are actual artists around here (not me, but I can set type around a circle, so that should count for something ).

Edited March 9, 2013 by kunarion

[+*GeoPunx*]

To be honest; I just want some thing simple.

 

 

If there was some way I could get my caching name onto the above. That would do me fine.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If there was some way I could get my caching name onto the above. That would do me fine.

 

If you can think of exactly what you want, just ask for it and someone will make it for you, but it works better if you come up with the specifics, yourself. Sometimes, we get stuck in a cycle of offering an image and having it rejected by someone who doesn't know what he wants, but thinks he'll know it when he sees it.

[+kunarion]

To be honest; I just want some thing simple.

 

 

If there was some way I could get my caching name onto the above. That would do me fine.

Here's one, just for reference. There's nothing fancy with the text. It's a much smaller file than a print shop might request. If they need a certain file type or image size, it will have to be specially sized (no problem with the one below, since the original is all in "vector graphics", for any size. Also, the "G" is rather grainy here (I kinda like that look), but I have a more smoothed version, too.

 

[+Spunkie92]

I stopped using the "official logo", a couple of months after I joined GC, due to the restrictions. I'm not about to keep track of the count (25?) of how many sig items I print (I like to design and print a variety of things), so everything is that Leatherman Logo or variants, or my own ideas. I even designed my own caching mascots, so I don't have to worry about printing "Signal". And I have my own "Travel Bug"-like logo. I get a lot of advice like "Meh, go ahead... that's not what they mean... yeah... you're not selling them...", but I'm way beyond that now with my own designs, and not looking back.

 

So if you want the logo on a signature item, you can only ever make 25 signature items? Wonder what would happen if you asked Groundspeak..

[+JKMonkey]

By buying the sticker from them it's commercial usage, it clearly says in the rules that it can only be used for non-commercial activities.

[+*GeoPunx*]

I just don't know how many people that can do, "shirts, hats, coins, logbooks, stickers" for themselves.

 

I'm holding tight until I hear back from them.

Edited March 10, 2013 by *GeoPunx*

[+Too Tall John]

For anyone printing GS logo stuff, print out a page (with the URL as a header) that describes the usage allowance and take it with you. Tell them they can look it up on their computers themselves. If they refuse...tell them they lost a customer for life.

Problem is, the Usage Page specifically states "These items may not, under any circumstance, be sold." Putting myself in the shop manager's position, what I read is that if I produce these logos, I can't sell them. Considering what I'd pay if I got caught infringing on someone's copyright, I'd also say "Good riddance" to anyone who was pressuring me to print copyrighted material or else I've "lost a customer for life."

 

Frankly, as someone who has thought it worth watermarking his own work, I would expect a big "Thank You for Protecting My Livelihood" from you to the print shop guy, not some ridiculous ultimatum advice. Sheesh.

[+*GeoPunx*]

I am not going to further respond to this thread until GS replies to my email.

At that time; I will copypasta their response here.

Whatever they reply to me will be my final post.

Edited March 11, 2013 by *GeoPunx*

[+cerberus1]

When we had Harley denim bike jackets embroidered with our Team name, logo and the four-colored GC logo, we showed them the geocaching logo usage and trademark information and it was okay.

I guess that putting our names on two team jackets with the logo was considered personal usage.

I'd think having your name with the logo for (25 and under) stickers should be the same.

[+*GeoPunx*]

They responded back to me very quickly.

And the response was exactly what I was expecting and wanting to see.

Here is the reply:

-bold by me-

 

Brian,

 

Technically its a fine line and the problem is probably our wording not either of your understanding. To make it simple. Groundspeak grants you the permission to have no more than 25 stickers made for your use. Groundspeak, Inc. grants your printer the permission to make those stickers for you as long as the circle R trademark remains on the logo and the logo is not altered. If the printer needs it we can send you an EPS file of the logo for use on the sticker.

 

Should they need to contact me they can reach me at <edited>@Groundspeak.com.

 

Please let me know if this is enough for your printer or not.

 

Thank you,

 

<removed>

[+StarBrand]

They responded back to me very quickly.

And the response was exactly what I was expecting and wanting to see.

Here is the reply:

-bold by me-

 

Brian,

 

Technically its a fine line and the problem is probably our wording not either of your understanding. To make it simple. Groundspeak grants you the permission to have no more than 25 stickers made for your use. Groundspeak, Inc. grants your printer the permission to make those stickers for you as long as the circle R trademark remains on the logo and the logo is not altered. If the printer needs it we can send you an EPS file of the logo for use on the sticker.

 

Should they need to contact me they can reach me at <edited>@Groundspeak.com.

 

Please let me know if this is enough for your printer or not.

 

Thank you,

 

<removed>

 

Exactly what I was thinking in my first post.

[+TheWeatherWarrior]

As I expected the response to be, hence my earlier response.

[+wmpastor]

It's their business, they know what they're talking about.

 

Veeery risky assumption in any situation!

[+kunarion]

It's their business, they know what they're talking about.

 

Veeery risky assumption in any situation!

Whatever, you ain't gonna talk them into it.

 

I once computer-scanned a nice professional studio photo of my parents, and brought it to a photo shop to get a decent copy photo made (my PC printer was not up to the task). "We can't copy that, it's a studio print!" -- I had scanned the little gold studio stamp, so it was pretty obvious. Next I edited that stamp out, and went to a different photo shop. "We can't copy that, it's a studio print!" . Thus ended my life of crime.

Edited March 12, 2013 by kunarion

[+kunarion]

They responded back to me very quickly.

And the response was exactly what I was expecting and wanting to see.

Here is the reply:

-bold by me-

 

Brian,

 

Technically its a fine line and the problem is probably our wording not either of your understanding. To make it simple. Groundspeak grants you the permission to have no more than 25 stickers made for your use. Groundspeak, Inc. grants your printer the permission to make those stickers for you as long as the circle R trademark remains on the logo and the logo is not altered. If the printer needs it we can send you an EPS file of the logo for use on the sticker.

Will the shop print those, based on that letter? Aren't you intending to add your name or local group name? (I guess the shop will add that part themselves, if it's nothing fancy?)

[+*GeoPunx*]

No, I wasn't planning on adding my caching name at first. Because that would have altered the logo.

I started thinking about putting our name on it when I was looking at using the Leatherman logo from above.

And I'm going to just go to a different printer as well.

And I will again take a copy of the logo usage page and their response to my inquiry as well.

[GOF and Bacall]

No, I wasn't planning on adding my caching name at first. Because that would have altered the logo.

I started thinking about putting our name on it when I was looking at using the Leatherman logo from above.

And I'm going to just go to a different printer as well.

And I will again take a copy of the logo usage page and their response to my inquiry as well.

 

You should be able to use your geo-nick in conjunction with the logo. You just can't modify the logo itself. Something like this should be good.

 

 

Of course you would have to check with the powers that be for a final decision. But the logo itself has not been modified.

[+*GeoPunx*]

I sent in an inquiry about putting my Geo-nick on the stickers. Haven't received a response yet. Will report back when I get one.

 

Brian

*GeoPunx*