Protocol Question re: Puzzle Cache

[+anarcha77]

Hi everyone,

 

I just wanted to get some others' thoughts on this because I'm unsure how to respond.

I recently received, for the first time, a message from another geocacher that I don't know personally. This cacher contacted me and asked for a hint on a puzzle cache I'd written a 'note' log on saying I'd solved [this cacher seems to have chosen me randomly, since lots of others have logged a solve or a find]. The thing is, I feel pretty weird about giving a hint on the puzzle when I'm not the cache owner, especially given that the cache owner is active and has been online in the past week. Am I right to tell this cacher to ask the CO for a hint rather than asking me?

[+NanCycle]

Hi everyone,

 

I just wanted to get some others' thoughts on this because I'm unsure how to respond.

I recently received, for the first time, a message from another geocacher that I don't know personally. This cacher contacted me and asked for a hint on a puzzle cache I'd written a 'note' log on saying I'd solved [this cacher seems to have chosen me randomly, since lots of others have logged a solve or a find]. The thing is, I feel pretty weird about giving a hint on the puzzle when I'm not the cache owner, especially given that the cache owner is active and has been online in the past week. Am I right to tell this cacher to ask the CO for a hint rather than asking me?

 

Yes, you should refer them to the cache owner.

[+steben6]

Others may disagree with this, but as the CO of a number of puzzle caches, I don't mind at all where you get a hint. Some COs choose not to share additional hints, but I want people to solve our puzzles and find our caches, so we always provide hints, if asked. I don't mind if you ask others who have solved the puzzle, either. The only time I might object (and I would never know) is if they just give you the solution. Hints help you to solve the puzzle - and that's the goal!

[+dprovan]

Yeah, I'm always uncomfortable when that happens, but I normally provide a little help. These questions always seem to be very general, so I usually feel that they're just fishing for answers rather than looking for help. I normally steer them in the right direction to get started without actually giving away anything important about solving the puzzle once they find it. So far, I've never had anyone come back a second time for help with another puzzle. I'm not sure how I feel about that...

 

I'm more inclined to help out if the question is a specific one that shows they've made significant progress before they started looking for help.

 

By the way, could you tell me why you posted a note saying you solved it? I don't quite understood why some people do that.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Would I approve? Not much I can do about it. I'm not great at giving hints, But I do see a number of lgs where cachers have asked others for a hint, but have not asked me.

I'd refer him to the CO. Unless he's a friend of mine...

[+anarcha77]

By the way, could you tell me why you posted a note saying you solved it? I don't quite understood why some people do that.

 

I don't generally post that I solved.

The reason I did in this case is that it was one of the caches in ePeterso2's Puzzle Solving 101 series and it's very common to do on those particular caches. Lots of people solve them remotely with little hope of actually ever getting out to find the containers because if you solve them all you have the chance to do a "puzzle solving final exam" and get a code to log a trackable at the end proving you've "passed the test."

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Yeah, I'm always uncomfortable when that happens, but I normally provide a little help. These questions always seem to be very general, so I usually feel that they're just fishing for answers rather than looking for help. I normally steer them in the right direction to get started without actually giving away anything important about solving the puzzle once they find it. So far, I've never had anyone come back a second time for help with another puzzle. I'm not sure how I feel about that...

 

I'm more inclined to help out if the question is a specific one that shows they've made significant progress before they started looking for help.

 

By the way, could you tell me why you posted a note saying you solved it? I don't quite understood why some people do that.

 

If a puzzle is particularly difficult, and it's one of the first logs, it tells others that might be working on it that it is, in fact, solvable. In my neck of the woods, puzzle caches are fairly common, and there are a small number of locals that try to solve all of them. I enjoy seeing a "solved it" notes from one of the local geocachers that isn't among the "usual suspects".

Edited March 7, 2013 by NYPaddleCacher

[+313JTG]

People work together on puzzle caches all the time, whether its at an event or you just call up your friend and work it out over the phone. However, out of respect for the CO, I'd still tell the guy who emailed you to contact the CO for a hint first. Everyone is different. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with someone getting help on my puzzles. They're meant to be tough, but still able to be solved by whoever pursues them. However, the CO of the puzzle you're talking about might be different.

 

"I'd rather be safe than sorry"

[+NYPaddleCacher]

People work together on puzzle caches all the time, whether its at an event or you just call up your friend and work it out over the phone. However, out of respect for the CO, I'd still tell the guy who emailed you to contact the CO for a hint first. Everyone is different. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with someone getting help on my puzzles. They're meant to be tough, but still able to be solved by whoever pursues them. However, the CO of the puzzle you're talking about might be different.

 

"I'd rather be safe than sorry"

 

I see quite a difference between people working together to solve a puzzle and someone that has already solved it giving hints to someone else that has not. I've never done the latter (as a hint provider or a recipient...though I have received hints from the CO) but I've collaborates with others quite a few times (via email) to work on a puzzle, in some cases on puzzle caches that I might not ever find (because they're 400+ miles from home). It can be a fun process, especially on a really difficult puzzle with someone with similar puzzle solving skills, as you bounce ideas off each other and come to a final solution about the same time but each contributing to the overall solution.

[AZcachemeister]

Am I right to tell this cacher to ask the CO for a hint rather than asking me?

 

Yes.

And if you don't want to get more similar messages, don't post the note that you solved it.

[+The Rat]

As the owner of 68 puzzle caches (37 still active) I would prefer people solve mine themselves so they get the full experience and the fun of the Aha! moment, but I have no problem with people getting hints from other previous solvers/finders. I will usually give hints on puzzles after a reasonable period of time has passed for the smart folks to get the "glory" of FTS or FTF, such as it is, but it can get to be a pain. Sometimes I say on the cache page I won't give hints, but I usually cave if you email me nicely. But I don't give spoilers, so if someone asks for a hint, they should only ask once and if they still don't get it, stop asking.

 

It's irritating to keep spoon feeding someone who is pretty much useless at solving (Have you Googled the title? No. Anagrammed it? No. Looked up the definition in a dictionary? No. Counted the number of sentences - 15 just like the number of digits in coordinates? No)and who really just wants to be told the coordinates so they can get a find. What's the point of doing a puzzle cache if you don't want to work the puzzle? Are you that desperate for another find? So in those cases I stop responding and if they want to get the answer from someone else it's fine with me. I do want my caches to be found, but I'm more interested in giving people the fun of solving the puzzles. I have also made some very good geofriends by asking for (or giving) hints on puzzles I don't own, so I see this as a positive social aspect of geocaching. Somebody has to go first in making new friends and if you share an interest in both geocaching and puzzles, why not make the move.

[+briansnat]

When someone asks me for a hint about any cache I‘ve found, puzzle or not, I always refer them to the cache owner. It's his cache and I think it should be up to him to decide how much information he wants to give out.

[+ProfessorBenson]

Is there some general rule as to how long you should the puzzle cache go unsolved before tossing out another hint? One of mine hasn't been cracked and I've had it out for a week. From the geochecker I put on it, there have been about 35 attempt I know about.

As the owner of 68 puzzle caches (37 still active) I would prefer people solve mine themselves so they get the full experience and the fun of the Aha! moment, but I have no problem with people getting hints from other previous solvers/finders. I will usually give hints on puzzles after a reasonable period of time has passed for the smart folks to get the "glory" of FTS or FTF, such as it is, but it can get to be a pain. Sometimes I say on the cache page I won't give hints, but I usually cave if you email me nicely. But I don't give spoilers, so if someone asks for a hint, they should only ask once and if they still don't get it, stop asking.

 

It's irritating to keep spoon feeding someone who is pretty much useless at solving (Have you Googled the title? No. Anagrammed it? No. Looked up the definition in a dictionary? No. Counted the number of sentences - 15 just like the number of digits in coordinates? No)and who really just wants to be told the coordinates so they can get a find. What's the point of doing a puzzle cache if you don't want to work the puzzle? Are you that desperate for another find? So in those cases I stop responding and if they want to get the answer from someone else it's fine with me. I do want my caches to be found, but I'm more interested in giving people the fun of solving the puzzles. I have also made some very good geofriends by asking for (or giving) hints on puzzles I don't own, so I see this as a positive social aspect of geocaching. Somebody has to go first in making new friends and if you share an interest in both geocaching and puzzles, why not make the move.

[+ngrrfan]

Is there some general rule as to how long you should the puzzle cache go unsolved before tossing out another hint? One of mine hasn't been cracked and I've had it out for a week. From the geochecker I put on it, there have been about 35 attempt I know about.

Put out a hint when you want to. There is no "magic" time length.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I've gotten a couple emails on puzzles usually when I was the most recent finder. I don't mind giving out a small hint if they show they've done real work on it. Most commonly the question is "here are my coords, geochecker says no" and they've got only one number wrong. I'll tell them which one is wrong because I've been there and know how frustrating it is, but I will leave them to find out the correct number.

[+terratin]

This has happened to us a couple of times as well (getting asked for hints on puzzle from other CO's). In all (most?) cases the asker wasn't local and had questions about some puzzles we solved & found. Take fi our last years trip to Paris; we received a couple of requests for hints: The 'issue' for those requesting hints was a lack of response from CO's or not understanding the response from the CO due to communicating in a different not native language. So what happened is the cacher scrolls down the found list and emails the first logger who logged in English and fire their questions at them.

Anyway, I do reply & give hints and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as -at least for me- there's no real difference in asking google or someone you know or a fellow cacher.

 

I'm in a similar situation at the moment; I'm working on two puzzles in Rome and am stuck on both. A little push in the right direction would be great, but so far no response at all from the CO's (after asking for hints twice), so I'm considering asking another finder for a little push in the right direction.

 

As cache owner I'm always happy to provide extra hints/additional help and I don't mind at all if someone 'bypasses' me and asks someone else. Bottom line is that our caches are out there to be found, one way or another.

 

Cheers,

 

Mr. Terratin

[+ProfessorBenson]

According to the geochecker I put on the page for the cache, my last puzzle cache has had 50 attempts to crack it with 0 successes. Is there some kind of record for the most attempts at trying to crack a puzzle?

[+The Rat]

Is there some general rule as to how long you should the puzzle cache go unsolved before tossing out another hint? One of mine hasn't been cracked and I've had it out for a week. From the geochecker I put on it, there have been about 35 attempt I know about.

I agree that there is no magic rule, but it is still a valid question. The answer depends a lot on your own intentions with the cache -- how hard do you want it to be? Is it part of a larger series or contest? etc. Where I live puzzlers are dense (i.e. in the demographic sense, not IQ) and very smart, so if I put out what I think is a fairly easy 3* puzzle and it isn't solved within a week I know it is harder than I thought, so I will usually modify the cache page or put in a puzzle hint. I've even cut that to three days, especially if I see from certitudes that there have been no attempts. Around here that means many people have tried to solve it but no one has even come up with a remotely possible set of coordinates or even partial coordinates. I will even suspect that I made a mistake in the puzzle, and may re-solve it to be sure, or ask someone else who's not a geocacher to solve it (e.g. for ciphers, I may ask one of my fellow ACA members to solve it). If I want it to be a 5* I won't post a hint, or may first post only a very cryptic one.

[+ProfessorBenson]

My "Satan Bug" cache has had 150 attempts at cracking it and not one right. I put it out a month ago. Does this seem excessive?

[+steben6]

My "Satan Bug" cache has had 150 attempts at cracking it and not one right. I put it out a month ago. Does this seem excessive?

I guess that depends on whether or not you want people to find your cache.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

My "Satan Bug" cache has had 150 attempts at cracking it and not one right. I put it out a month ago. Does this seem excessive?

 

Just out of curiousity, did you have anyone beta test the puzzle to ensure that it *can* be solved, and that the coordinates entered in the coordinate checker are correct. That many failed attempts would tell me that there were 150 people that *thought* they solved the puzzle and came up with a set of coordinates that seemed reasonable enough to enter into a coordinate checker. If 150 people are entering coordinates and most of them are the same there may be something wrong with the puzzle or the coordinates they're testing against aren't correct.

 

 

I guess that depends on whether or not you want people to find your cache.

 

I see this a lot. Just because a puzzle is difficult, or the container is hard to find or is very difficult to get to doesn't mean that the CO doesn't want their cache to be find. If someone creates a cache with a 5 star difficulty rating it's *supposed* to be hard and would be intended for those that like a challenge. Not every caches needs to be findable by everyone.

[+ProfessorBenson]

I worked the puzzle backwards to make sure it could be solved.

This is not a standard "here's the secret code, now solve it" puzzle. You have to intuit your way through this one. I did it this way because(A)my previous "Junior crypt-analysis" ones were all cracked in a matter of hours and(B)I wanted something different that a computer couldn't do.

Edited April 4, 2013 by ProfessorBenson

[+fizzymagic]

I worked the puzzle backwards to make sure it could be solved.

 

That in no way makes it certain it can be solved.

 

This is not a standard "here's the secret code, now solve it" puzzle. You have to intuit your way through this one. I did it this way because(A)my previous "Junior crypt-analysis" ones were all cracked in a matter of hours and(B)I wanted something different that a computer couldn't do.

 

How you want to do your puzzle is up to you. Looking at it, I would classify it as what we call a "moon logic" puzzle; the only way to solve those is to read the mind of the creator. But I only glanced at it briefly, so I could well be wrong; there might be a completely logical path to the solution.

 

Creating good puzzles (as opposed to merely difficult puzzles) is a lot harder than you would think. I have created my share of bad ones, but I'd like to think I have learned from my mistakes.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

My "Satan Bug" cache has had 150 attempts at cracking it and not one right. I put it out a month ago. Does this seem excessive?

 

I just put in a few attempts, myself. I can see how the structure seems to relate to the coordinates, and I thought I got the first half, but the second half made me convinced that I had no idea what I was doing. It's starting to look like I need ESP for this one.

[4wheelin_fool]

My "Satan Bug" cache has had 150 attempts at cracking it and not one right. I put it out a month ago. Does this seem excessive?

This one has 20,390 wrong attempts and 7 correct ones with a 10 month hiatus for FTF.

 

The longer your puzzle goes unsolved, the more interest it will draw until it reaches epic status. There are only 8 people watching it, just wait until it's a few dozen.

Edited April 4, 2013 by 4wheelin_fool

[+redsox_mark]

.......what we call a "moon logic" puzzle; the only way to solve those is to read the mind of the creator.

 

I like this name - "moon logic". I've come across some of those too.

 

I'm not great at puzzles (but getting better). Some I can solve without help. Some I need to ask for a further hint to solve - and when I finally solve it, I see the logic (and many times kick myself for not seeing it earlier).

 

But sometimes I get totally stuck and keep asking for hints; and eventually I get very detailed ones. This is when I discover it was "moon logic"; where even when I know the answer I can't possibly see how I could have got there without the owner guiding me.

 

I can't tell of course until I've solved it if it is "moon logic", or something logical that I just can't see.

 

Most of the puzzles I've solved were logical... not too many of these "moon logic" ones.

[+ProfessorBenson]

Wow, that "Curse of the FTF" puzzle puts mine to shame.