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Makes me sad....


J the Goat

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Well, better that than have what he said would happen be true...shooting someone for trespassing. This cache is just off a road, its not like one has to hike or climb a fence, if google maps are accurate, you'd hope someone would have a little discretion about shooting someone if they step 2 feet on their property for a cache or whatever, permission or not.

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Well, better that than have what he said would happen be true...shooting someone for trespassing. This cache is just off a road, its not like one has to hike or climb a fence, if google maps are accurate, you'd hope someone would have a little discretion about shooting someone if they step 2 feet on their property for a cache or whatever, permission or not.

Oh. PS- You can't shoot somebody for just stepping on your property. (Of course that legal lesson for the property owner won't help you much if you're dead)

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Well, better that than have what he said would happen be true...shooting someone for trespassing. This cache is just off a road, its not like one has to hike or climb a fence, if google maps are accurate, you'd hope someone would have a little discretion about shooting someone if they step 2 feet on their property for a cache or whatever, permission or not.

 

No, that's accurate. It was just off a well used public roadway with no fence or indication that that particular hillside was anything other than public property. It may just be somebody barking trying to stop people from coming towards his house, but it's certainly not worth assuming...

 

No, not a common reaction at all. Although we did have one cacher quit and archive all his caches after he got a bill from the bomb squad after they blew up a film can on a roadsign. Or almost blew one up. I forget which....

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Inspired me to do a search on a law database for similar incidents. Interesting case People v. Helm in CA.

 

Relevant facts below:

 

Prosecution Evidence

 

On July 15, 2011, Kenyon Harman, his brother, Patrick, his son, Cameron, and his son's friend, Kollin, drove to Victorville to go geocaching for a few days. Geocaching consisted of using a Global Positioning System (GPS) to find geocaches, which were containers that people had hidden throughout the world for others to find, as a game. The understanding among the players was that the geocaches were not to be placed on private property without the owner's permission.

 

After they arrived in the Victorville/Oro Grande area, Kenyon and the others found about 15 geocaches. They drove along a road, in search of the next geocache and decided to hike to the next location. They hiked up a hill with a lot of rocks. The group of four split into two, as Kenyon and Kollin looked for the geocache together, and Patrick and Cameron looked together. Kenyon and Kollin located the geocache and told the two others. As Kenyon and Kollin opened the container, Patrick told Kenyon that someone was approaching in a car below them. Only Patrick and Cameron were visible to the driver at the time. Patrick saw the car stop and observed defendant get out of the car and yell at them to “get out, get out.” Defendant also may have indicated that it was private property. Patrick yelled back to defendant that they were sorry, they did not know it was private property, and that they were leaving. Patrick then told Kenyon that defendant was telling them to leave. Patrick said that they should go, and Kenyon agreed. Kenyon put the geocache back where it was, and the four of them started walking back toward their truck. As they were walking back, they heard two pops and realized that someone was firing a gun at them. They started running as fast as they could. As they were running, they heard four more pops and heard bullets ricochet off the rocks. Cameron felt something hit him in the back of the leg. His leg went numb, and he fell on the ground and held his leg. Kenyon helped him up and they continued on. Cameron stumbled and fell a couple times, as they made their way down the hill. Kenyon and Cameron reached the truck a few minutes after Patrick and Kollin. Patrick called 911, and they all quickly jumped in the truck and drove away. As they were driving, Cameron's leg was hurting severely. They drove to a gas station and then headed to the hospital. Cameron's leg had been hit by a bullet.

 

*2 The police responded to defendant's property. The officers made contact with defendant, found a rifle in his car, and found six .22–caliber rifle shell casings near the driver's door of his car.

 

Defense Evidence

Defendant was 71 years old at the time of trial. He lived alone with no telephone and no neighbors close by. He testified at trial that on May 152, a few men came on his property and wanted to buy some of his equipment. He agreed, and the next day, the men returned to pick up the equipment. He let them on his property, and they loaded up the equipment on their trucks, but drove away without paying defendant.

 

On July 15, 2011, defendant heard a vehicle drive by him on his property and heard his dog barking. He waited about 20 minutes, then got in his car and drove toward the hills. He stopped in front of a hill when he saw two people, approximately 250 feet away. He got out of his car and yelled that it was private property and told them to leave. He waited about three minutes and repeated the command. One of the men told him, “no.” The two people started walking toward defendant, and he repeated his command. They said no again. Defendant became scared, so he drove his car back to his trailer to get his rifle. He loaded 12 bullets in his rifle and went back outside. He saw the people still on the hill and fired his rifle. Defendant testified that he knew nothing about the people's intentions, but believed their intentions toward him were bad. He shot three times in the air to scare them away. Then, he shot three times at the rocks. He said he never intended to hurt anybody.

 

(PS- he was sentenced to 7 years in prison for assault with a firearm)

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The Geocaching member who wrote the log, well it looks odd.

[This Cache is on private property. It was destroyed. If it was destroyed why retrieve it?

No, we do not care what was in the ammo can. The can is no longer a Geo-cache and Trespassers will be prosecuted and or shot. How can any one retrieve it if they are going to be shot?

Imagine if you saw someone outside your house climbing your hill with an ammo can in their hands. The cache was placed in 2008, why now?

If someone can kindly remove this geo-cache from the map listing it would be greatly appreciated. Now he is being nice by asking?

No, the owner of the property is not the poster of this message. Then the owner should contact GC or have someone else do it for them, why didn't the poster of the note?

No, the contents of the can are not recoverable. Fire is awesome like that. Repeat from first comment

If you were the person who wrote: "Neighbor is watching me." Consider yourself lucky. How did the poster know what it was and how to track down that cache?Have a great day!]

Edited by jellis
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No, that's accurate. It was just off a well used public roadway with no fence or indication that that particular hillside was anything other than public property. It may just be somebody barking trying to stop people from coming towards his house, but it's certainly not worth assuming...

 

 

There's the problem right there. Cache hiders do a lot of assuming, and no checking of property maps. And there's a whole lot less public property than people think.

 

Instead of proof of permission, cachers should be required to provide to the reviewers a statement as to who owns the property. This would indicate at least a little bit of research was done, and may open up people's eyes a little "Oh...I thought that was public property, I didn't realize it was owned by Joe Smith."

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you can find trigger happy nut-heads all over,

no matter how smart you think you are,

suttently you are in the middle of bad stuff.

 

Sure we can try this and that,

a geocache is supposed to be located at a LEGAL location

so kids and family can show up 24/7

if a reviewer dont feel this is the case, why did he puplish it.

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As a gun owner myself I feel for the property owner...the geocache should not have been there without permission. However even in states that allow for the castle doctrine he has to fear 'imminent death or serious bodily harm' to himself or another and a person walking on a hill with an ammo box might look suspicious, but isn't apparently armed or being aggressive. If he'd killed a geocacher he'd have very little to stand on.

 

That said, its not unheard of for drug growers or a landowner with something criminal to use excessive force.

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Sure we can try this and that,

a geocache is supposed to be located at a LEGAL location

so kids and family can show up 24/7

if a reviewer dont feel this is the case, why did he puplish it.

 

Because the review has to take the word of the hider regarding permission and access. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, there are a lot of hiders who have no idea if their cache is on private property or not. They assume a stand of trees next to a road is public property, and therefore can hide a cache there.

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we have nothing against gun owners,

I support the right to be able to self defend, you and your family,

BUT, as a gun owner, you know there is no shoot first and ask later !

 

offcourse if a person come running towards you with a thing looking like a gun

and he point it to you, surely you must do something.

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we have nothing against gun owners,

I support the right to be able to self defend, you and your family,

BUT, as a gun owner, you know there is no shoot first and ask later !

 

offcourse if a person come running towards you with a thing looking like a gun

and he point it to you, surely you must do something.

Can we PLEASE not get into a gun rights debate here? There is currently, in the United States, a furious "conversation" taking place on this subject. I come here to discuss geocaching, not the Second Amendment.

 

--Larry

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we have nothing against gun owners,

I support the right to be able to self defend, you and your family,

BUT, as a gun owner, you know there is no shoot first and ask later !

 

offcourse if a person come running towards you with a thing looking like a gun

and he point it to you, surely you must do something.

Can we PLEASE not get into a gun rights debate here? There is currently, in the United States, a furious "conversation" taking place on this subject. I come here to discuss geocaching, not the Second Amendment.

 

--Larry

 

Very much this.

 

I'm not suggesting that I think it's bad this cache got archived, I'm just sad to see it happen the way it did. I'm all for permission for hides, but had I hidden this cache (not my cup of tea, it's not 25 feet from the roadway) I'd have thought public without a second thought as well. I'm actually doubting it's private property and think this may just be a neighbor who doesn't want people close to his/her property. Either way, it's clear that cache wore out it's welcome. A friend of mine sent a message to the guy asking him to post pictures of his new ammo can tool box :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

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I'm all for permission for hides, but had I hidden this cache (not my cup of tea, it's not 25 feet from the roadway) I'd have thought public without a second thought as well. I'm actually doubting it's private property and think this may just be a neighbor who doesn't want people close to his/her property.

 

Why would you just assume property next to a road is public? Just because there's a tree line there? Becaue you can't see the house or a mailbox?

 

Looking at Google maps at GZ, they have property lines shown. The cache location is close to (or on) the peorpty line as shown on Google maps. Yes, I know google maps is not official, but a quick trip to the COunty offices would settle things for sure (there may even be maps online, but I don't feel like looking for something not in my neck of the woods). I know in RI most towns have online maps, and I can figure out who owns a piece of property in less than 15 minuutes.

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I'm actually doubting it's private property and think this may just be a neighbor who doesn't want people close to his/her property. Either way, it's clear that cache wore out it's welcome.

I've placed three rural caches (two on public property and one with the owner's permission) where I felt neighbors might be worried about strangers stopping in the middle of nowhere. In these instances, I talked to (or left notes) explaining the situation and offering not to place the cache if the neighbor didn't want it there. Taking this pre-emptive action might well have prevented potential problems with these placements.

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I don't claim to be an expert on California property law, but a quick glance through the Caltrans right of way manual confirms my suspicions that not every "right of way" in the state of California is public land.

 

Typically the only time that state or federal government actually hold title to a right of way is for state or federal highways that require significant setbacks and that may be subject to future expansion.

 

Most streets, even larger ones, have right of way easements -- the property owner enjoys most rights to (and retains most responsibilities for) the strip of land along the road, but the government reserves rights along the edge of the property to place and maintain roads. For far too much information on California right of way easements, click here.

 

Just because Google drew a line on the map doesn't mean it's public property.

 

That said, the first thing I thought of was the Heim case. "Destroyed__Cache" would not have a leg to stand on if they opened fire on geocachers without a clearly perceived threat. Maybe they could room with Mr. Heim, assuming they possess the mental faculties to stand trial.

 

edit: Heim, not Helm/Helms.

Edited by hzoi
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I suppose one benefit of nanos is that if someone burns the cache contents, there will be less impact on the environment than burning plastic swag.

 

In any event, I agree that this brought to mind the Heim case. I just got notified three days ago that the Court of Appeal had issued its remittitur (finalizing its opinion and the conviction). The case was interesting because Mr. Heim was acquitted of two of the four counts, including the allegation that he personally inflicted great bodily injury (the one person who was actually shot). The probation officer would have been far more sympathetic to him than the trial court.

Edited by geodarts
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we have nothing against gun owners,

I support the right to be able to self defend, you and your family,

BUT, as a gun owner, you know there is no shoot first and ask later !

 

offcourse if a person come running towards you with a thing looking like a gun

and he point it to you, surely you must do something.

Can we PLEASE not get into a gun rights debate here? There is currently, in the United States, a furious "conversation" taking place on this subject. I come here to discuss geocaching, not the Second Amendment.

 

--Larry

 

+100

 

Because it's not an argument of a gun going off by itself it's a function of a complete moronic behavior. The one publicly stating threats is a moron and if truly on private property, the cache hider is too. The whole gun thing is secondary. As for those seeking the cache, they're not nearly as responsible but not off the hook either.

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Why would you just assume property next to a road is public? Just because there's a tree line there? Becaue you can't see the house or a mailbox?

 

 

There's an area that we frequent where this happens a lot. Any spot along the road with some bushes or trees seems to be open game. I've read lots of logs with stories about unhappy, sometimes gun-toting, land owners.

 

Some folks just don't know.

 

Others do know but don't care.

 

Then there's those who don't want to know.

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we have nothing against gun owners,

I support the right to be able to self defend, you and your family,

BUT, as a gun owner, you know there is no shoot first and ask later !

 

offcourse if a person come running towards you with a thing looking like a gun

and he point it to you, surely you must do something.

Can we PLEASE not get into a gun rights debate here? There is currently, in the United States, a furious "conversation" taking place on this subject. I come here to discuss geocaching, not the Second Amendment.

 

--Larry

+100

 

Because it's not an argument of a gun going off by itself it's a function of a complete moronic behavior.

Gotta love it. Strongly supports not getting into a gun rights debate, then makes a gun rights argument. :rolleyes:

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Ignorance has been a curse of man since the beginning of time. That person with the threatening log didn't bother to do enough research (I only say that because he was able to find the cache page somehow) to see what Geocaching is all about. Instead he/she decided to become vigilante and lay down the law: his way or the highway.

 

People sometimes get a little overconfident and think they're entitled to more rights as citizens of the US than they truly possess. If this isn't his/her property, then they have no right to be territorial unless they're hiding something (seems likely to me).

 

In the end though, I think we're all thankful nobody was hurt. If anything, the person who posted the log on the cache page with threats could be hurt by some impending legal issues.

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Why would you just assume property next to a road is public? Just because there's a tree line there? Becaue you can't see the house or a mailbox?

 

There's an area that we frequent where this happens a lot. Any spot along the road with some bushes or trees seems to be open game. I've read lots of logs with stories about unhappy, sometimes gun-toting, land owners.

 

Some folks just don't know.

 

Others do know but don't care.

 

Then there's those who don't want to know.

We see this often, visitors leaving vacation hides mostly.

They (wrongly) assume anything in front of that "NO Trespassing" sign is public property, since it's, "so close to the road".

In reality, other than a post-in-the-ground, that tree is simply the most convenient place for the landowner to hang it.

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a geocache is supposed to be located at a LEGAL location

so kids and family can show up 24/7

if a reviewer dont feel this is the case, why did he puplish it.

The first day when I'm required to confirm this with certainty prior to publication is my last day as a reviewer.

 

That's dedication for ya. <_<

 

We once had a reviewer in AZ who was this conscientious...without being told to do it.

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a geocache is supposed to be located at a LEGAL location

so kids and family can show up 24/7

if a reviewer dont feel this is the case, why did he puplish it.

The first day when I'm required to confirm this with certainty prior to publication is my last day as a reviewer.

 

That's dedication for ya. <_<

 

We once had a reviewer in AZ who was this conscientious...without being told to do it.

I'm familiar with that example. He was acting contrary to instructions, and is no longer a reviewer. I've been acting consistent with instructions, and have been a reviewer for almost ten years now.

 

Thanks for offering your views on my level of dedication.

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I saw an incident in which a cacher just happened to work in the county tax assessor's office was upset about a property owner damaging a cache (it was near, but not on the owner's property). The property owner's property was re-assessed. I understand it took several years to figure out why.

 

When you do something spiteful, do it in a way in which you and your friends are anonymous. Otherwise, someone may deliver karma right to your doorstep.

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I saw an incident in which a cacher just happened to work in the county tax assessor's office was upset about a property owner damaging a cache (it was near, but not on the owner's property). The property owner's property was re-assessed. I understand it took several years to figure out why.

 

When you do something spiteful, do it in a way in which you and your friends are anonymous. Otherwise, someone may deliver karma right to your doorstep.

 

That reminds me of a incident one of my friends told me about that happened at an airport. He was checking his luggage with a skycap outside the terminal and watched as another passenger was yelling at the skycap, calling him names and being generally obnoxious for no apparent reason. When my friend went to check his luggage he said, "That man sure was obnoxious, I hope I'm not on the same flight". The skycap responded, "Oh him? He's going to Los Angeles... his luggage is going to London."

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