Spoiler Alert

3.6k · February 22, 2013

I just notice (and deleted) a log by a cacher requesting help from cachers to help solve one of my puzzles. This is what he/she said.

Please somebody help! I've been going over and over this puzzle for weeks, coming at it from various angles, and I KEEP getting stuck at an impossibility (at least it seems that way to me). Here's what I have, if someone can correct me PLEASE DO!!

From the tens digits I have G=x, D=x, H=x, now the DJ column must be no greater than xx, therefore J must equal x. Now that I have X-X, the HA column must be xx, so A=x. If that is true, then the X column with A only can be x,x or x,x. Because HJ=xx, the minimum number allowed in this row is x, therefore the top number in the A column must be x and the bottom number must be x. But this can't be as the GD row = xx and therefore that number can only be x or greater.

I've gone over and over this, but I don't see any fallacies in my logic! Please prove me wrong!!

Please e-mail me directly: YYYYYYYY.com

Thanks!!

Of course I replaced all the numbers with Xs

Edited February 22, 2013 by jellis

2k · February 22, 2013

Did you help them?

5.7k · February 22, 2013

ug bn at qd pn qt ue gt ay el gm gq ka kw fg ac mw nr gb vl mw ml tn qd qs eb tu ko an mu ki yf uz vy wp be ce gb qm eq gb zn dq yg om qg te hq wr mq qn tn ug er ug ge tg cg cg gb mi

3.6k · February 22, 2013

Yes but I only gave them a name of a site I got the idea from. I didn't create the whole puzzle. Their excuse was to contact other cachers who solved it. The ones who solved it probably would not bother having the cache on their watchlists anymore. Those would be the ones who didn't solve it. I suggested they contact the cachers by email not post it in the logs.

Edited February 22, 2013 by jellis

3.7k · February 22, 2013

How bizarre. I guess someone will have to explain to them etiquette everybody else already knows instinctively. :rolleyes:

February 22, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all :laughing:

1.4k · February 23, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me. :blink:

February 23, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

It's probably very best that you wouldn't publish any puzzles, then.

3.6k · February 23, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all

Yup did that too. Nicely. Newbie with about 45 finds and a PM.

Also explained it is rated high for a reason. It's Difficult!

Edited February 23, 2013 by jellis

14k · February 24, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

It's probably very best that you wouldn't publish any puzzles, then.

Which is really kind sad. If someone did enjoy creating puzzles, and came up with some creative ideas for other to enjoy, it's too bad that there are some people that don't respect cache owners enough that they'll just ask for the solution from someone else instead of letting the cache owner decide how much information to provide. If that leads to a cache owner to stop creating new puzzles it spoils the fun for someone that also enjoys puzzle and won't resort to just asking for a solution from someone else.

3.6k · February 24, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

It's probably very best that you wouldn't publish any puzzles, then.

Which is really kind sad. If someone did enjoy creating puzzles, and came up with some creative ideas for other to enjoy, it's too bad that there are some people that don't respect cache owners enough that they'll just ask for the solution from someone else instead of letting the cache owner decide how much information to provide. If that leads to a cache owner to stop creating new puzzles it spoils the fun for someone that also enjoys puzzle and won't resort to just asking for a solution from someone else.

When someone like this cacher who looks like they want to find it to just clear the area, it's not fun if you want more help then the ones who can solve it. I noticed you haven't found it yet. It's the Karuro one.

1.4k · February 24, 2013

It seems to me the first one to ask for help on any type of cache would be the CO. Most of the Cache owners seem more than willing to help someone find their cache. However it should be up to them as to how much to help.

You ask me for help, and I would give you as much as you need, up to taking a day to walk you out to it and pointing it out.

You ask someone else first, and I wonder what you have against me. :huh:

(and no I really don't care for the concept of PAF. But I really don't care if you do it.)

7.5k · February 25, 2013

So that's what happen to that log! I saw that log and couldn't remember how to solve the puzzle, so I had to work it through again to figure out what his problem was. By the time I'd re-solved it, the log had disappeared. I thought he was embarrassed when he realized what he'd missed and deleted his own log. Now I know what really happened to it!

That's a pretty complicated puzzle (kudos!), so I don't think I would have worried about those particular spoilers. In fact, I thought they made pretty good getting-started hints. No problem that you wanted to get rid of the log, of course. That's up to you. And I'm even OK if you sent him a note telling him that wasn't a good thing to do in the future, not only because it might be a spoiler, but also just because the log isn't the place to get help for a puzzle. But as an outside observer, I don't think it compromised of your puzzle significantly, if you're worried about that. It certainly didn't make it easy by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone that couldn't see those first steps isn't likely to be able to get much further, either.

3.7k · February 25, 2013

There's a cache near my office that goes to the trouble of laying out this puzzle where you have to get clues which give you numbers to use to input the coordinates for Stage 2.

Problem is, the owner then proceeds to put those coordinates right there in the waymarks for everyone to see. Not sure why nobody else mentioned it in all the years it's been there, but I called him out on it in my log. If everyone can just skip Stage 1, why bother with the puzzle at all?

2k · February 26, 2013

Maybe I'm a newb, but in my 2 puzzle caches, I actually told cachers how to solve it on the cache page. :unsure:

13.8k · February 26, 2013

Maybe I'm a newb, but in my 2 puzzle caches, I actually told cachers how to solve it on the cache page.

And you'd be correct. One of the guidelines for puzzles does say "The information to proceed to solve the puzzle must be on the page".

14k · February 26, 2013

Maybe I'm a newb, but in my 2 puzzle caches, I actually told cachers how to solve it on the cache page.

And you'd be correct. One of the guidelines for puzzles does say "The information to proceed to solve the puzzle must be on the page".

True, but that doesn't mean that a cache owner has to explicitly tell others how to use their brains to figure out how to use the information on the cache page to obtain a set of coordinates. The purpose of that guideline is to prevent puzzles which require someone to contact the CO to obtain information necessary to solve the puzzle. An internet search engine is not on the cache page but it's generally understood that using one to figure out how to use the information on the cache page doesn't violate the guideline.

3.3k · February 26, 2013

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

Why would it matter? As long as they asked privately and not in the cache listing, of course?

On my first puzzle, I got help from the CO. I needed more help & didn't want to annoy the CO, so I emailed a recent finder who kindly helped also.

3.3k · February 26, 2013

There's a cache near my office that goes to the trouble of laying out this puzzle where you have to get clues which give you numbers to use to input the coordinates for Stage 2.

Problem is, the owner then proceeds to put those coordinates right there in the waymarks for everyone to see. Not sure why nobody else mentioned it in all the years it's been there, but I called him out on it in my log. If everyone can just skip Stage 1, why bother with the puzzle at all?

You'd probably do him a favor if you told him that yes, the coords need to be listed, but that they can be marked "hidden," & that's what's usually done in a multi or a puzzle cache.

1.1k · February 26, 2013

it is not fun to spend or waste alot of time on a puzzle, and not be able to solve it..

they feel they need to solve it, one way or the other,

CO dont help, he dont want the cache to be found,

so they ask others, until one day they get it..

it is VERY normal to get into situations like this,

people why say they did not ask their friends for a bit help or advise are lying :-)

I prefer to compleetly reveal all I found out and what I did to the CO

and let him say what he thinks I need, to get a little bit in the right direction,

if his help dont work, cache go on the ignore list and is fast forgotten..

life is too short to be wasted behind a PC

geocaching is an OUTDOOR game..

Edited February 26, 2013 by OZ2CPU

14k · February 26, 2013

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

Why would it matter? As long as they asked privately and not in the cache listing, of course?

It would matter because the cache owner is the one that decides how difficult they want the puzzle to be an sets the difficulty rating accordingly. When someone asks a third party, and that person just shares the solution, they're effectively turning what might be a 4 star difficulty cache into a 1.5 difficulty cache. If the owner wanted to create a 1.5 difficulty cache they wouldn't have intentionally created a challenging puzzle.

Some cache owners take pride in putting some creative effort in their caches, whether it's how it's hidden, or a puzzle that must be solved to obtain the coordinates. If someone is just going to give away where a cache is hidden or how to solve the puzzle what motivation is a cache owner going to have to put any creative effort into their future caches?

7.5k · February 26, 2013

Some cache owners take pride in putting some creative effort in their caches, whether it's how it's hidden, or a puzzle that must be solved to obtain the coordinates. If someone is just going to give away where a cache is hidden or how to solve the puzzle what motivation is a cache owner going to have to put any creative effort into their future caches?

The answer is obviously that the owners' motivation would be to please and delight the people who do appreciate such puzzles. Get used to people getting the answers through other means because you're not going to stop it. Their loss.

14k · February 26, 2013

Some cache owners take pride in putting some creative effort in their caches, whether it's how it's hidden, or a puzzle that must be solved to obtain the coordinates. If someone is just going to give away where a cache is hidden or how to solve the puzzle what motivation is a cache owner going to have to put any creative effort into their future caches?

The answer is obviously that the owners' motivation would be to please and delight the people who do appreciate such puzzles. Get used to people getting the answers through other means because you're not going to stop it. Their loss.

In other words, let the cheaters win.

7.5k · February 26, 2013

The answer is obviously that the owners' motivation would be to please and delight the people who do appreciate such puzzles. Get used to people getting the answers through other means because you're not going to stop it. Their loss.

In other words, let the cheaters win.

No, let the cheaters lose. It doesn't make any difference to me if they didn't get the most out of the CO's efforts.

Viewing what they're doing as winning is the only thing that let's them "win". So just don't do that.

3.3k · February 27, 2013

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

Why would it matter? As long as they asked privately and not in the cache listing, of course?

It would matter because the cache owner is the one that decides how difficult they want the puzzle to be an sets the difficulty rating accordingly. When someone asks a third party, and that person just shares the solution, they're effectively turning what might be a 4 star difficulty cache into a 1.5 difficulty cache. If the owner wanted to create a 1.5 difficulty cache they wouldn't have intentionally created a challenging puzzle.

Some cache owners take pride in putting some creative effort in their caches, whether it's how it's hidden, or a puzzle that must be solved to obtain the coordinates. If someone is just going to give away where a cache is hidden or how to solve the puzzle what motivation is a cache owner going to have to put any creative effort into their future caches?

Good cachers like challenge & avoid giving or receiving spoiler info. Even the pro cachers in my area acknowledge help often in finding puzzle cac hes, both from the CO & others. If I request help for any find, I make clear I don't want the answer or location. I acknowledge any help in my log.

3.3k · February 27, 2013

CO dont help, he dont want the cache to be found....

Who's that CO - Mr. Grinch?? :laughing:

I love it when people find my caches!

February 27, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

It's probably very best that you wouldn't publish any puzzles, then.

Which is really kind sad. If someone did enjoy creating puzzles, and came up with some creative ideas for other to enjoy, it's too bad that there are some people that don't respect cache owners enough that they'll just ask for the solution from someone else instead of letting the cache owner decide how much information to provide. If that leads to a cache owner to stop creating new puzzles it spoils the fun for someone that also enjoys puzzle and won't resort to just asking for a solution from someone else.

When someone like this cacher who looks like they want to find it to just clear the area, it's not fun if you want more help then the ones who can solve it. I noticed you haven't found it yet. It's the Karuro one.

I asked others, like I said above, on a totally different site but AFTER I emailed the CO to get a hint.. still haven't got a response, btw.. emailed him again tonight.. but in my case there's no number pattern at all and there's no hint or key or anything to give a hint... just says to figure it out.. I can't stop trying tho, just my mentality I guess :laughing:

February 27, 2013

CO dont help, he dont want the cache to be found....

Who's that CO - Mr. Grinch??

I love it when people find my caches!

word

14k · February 27, 2013

Did you contact him and let him know how to email other cachers? maybe they didn't know how else to ask...

I've asked for help before, but I did it by sharing a picture of just the problem on instagram.. it didn't help at all

I don't do puzzles, and haven't hidden any. If I did I wouldn't want someone asking other cachers how to solve it, I would want them to ask me.

It's probably very best that you wouldn't publish any puzzles, then.

Which is really kind sad. If someone did enjoy creating puzzles, and came up with some creative ideas for other to enjoy, it's too bad that there are some people that don't respect cache owners enough that they'll just ask for the solution from someone else instead of letting the cache owner decide how much information to provide. If that leads to a cache owner to stop creating new puzzles it spoils the fun for someone that also enjoys puzzle and won't resort to just asking for a solution from someone else.

When someone like this cacher who looks like they want to find it to just clear the area, it's not fun if you want more help then the ones who can solve it. I noticed you haven't found it yet. It's the Karuro one.

I asked others, like I said above, on a totally different site but AFTER I emailed the CO to get a hint.. still haven't got a response, btw.. emailed him again tonight.. but in my case there's no number pattern at all and there's no hint or key or anything to give a hint... just says to figure it out.. I can't stop trying tho, just my mentality I guess

If the CO won't answer email (assuming that you gave them adequate time to do so) I can understand why you might ask others but I still maintain that one should *always* ask the CO first.

Some puzzles are like the one you describe. The trick to the puzzle is finding the puzzle. Something that you can also do is to post a note on the cache page (or even here) asking if someone else it trying to solve it, then collaborate with each other to come up with a solution. Since neither of you would have solved it, that's really no different than two cachers going out together to find a physical cache, then both signing the log after one has located it first.

1.1k · February 27, 2013

>I love it when people find my caches!

EXACTLY !! my point..

so my advice is very simple:

no matter how hard you made a puzzle or a cache hide for that matter, if a person ask you (the CO) for help,

you kindly help a little bit, so he can continue his jurney in the right direction,

I actually continue to help, until he sign the log, this way we both win.

some need very little help, others very much, that is perfectly ok.

I even crawled all the way up a tree, back down, sign the log, and up again to put it back.

I offcourse normally dont help this much always :-)

But this very special tree can be tricky,

I did this 2 times..

for a couple of kids on their 2nd caching day ever,

and for a really nice gent who lost a leg in a motorcycle accident.

1.4k · February 27, 2013

If the CO won't answer email (assuming that you gave them adequate time to do so) I can understand why you might ask others but I still maintain that one should *always* ask the CO first.

+1

1.1k · February 27, 2013

yes offcourse you can ask others too, just ask for a bit help, not the solution

many areas got SMS lists, phone lists, facebook groups and such where active locals are united and will be able to contact each other

and make new friends and get alot more fun out of it all,

some caches are easier to solve if you work a bit together, and some are also easier and more safe to sign, if you join equipment,

it is like you cant constuct your new house all alone anyway, you always need a bit help..

February 27, 2013

I'm a newbie and since there aren't as many traditional caches as there are puzzle caches, I've had to contact the CO for information. I've gotten encouragement from him to continue even though I thought that I was horrible with puzzles and to not give up. I was given various tools to figure it out and sites to bookmark as aids.

Honestly, if I would been told the solution, then on each & every similar cache I would be stuck. Having been given the tools to solve it has helped me solve a few of them myself. I am getting better at solving them now, but i'm still a long way off from being able to figure most puzzles out alone.

I've asked on this forum for help but only in terms of terminology, something that others would know without having to wait for a CO to answer but it was small stuff like: Alpha sum & DR what they meant.

Give me a fish, feed me for a day, teach me to fish, feed me for life.

2.6k · February 27, 2013

Firstly - obviously the log which started this thread is not the thing to do...

If I need help on a puzzle, I'll generally email the owner for a hint, rather than email others. But on the other hand, I think discussing a puzzle with a friend is OK. A puzzle can come up in a conversation. I have worked on several puzzles together with a good friend. Sometimes he will also ask me for a nudge on one which I've solved which he hasn't. I'm not going to say "sorry, I can't help you unless you have already asked the owner and given him enough time to respond". Helping a friend is a natural instinct.

And I have no concern if people get help from friends to solve my puzzle cache (I only have one).

14k · February 27, 2013

yes offcourse you can ask others too, just ask for a bit help, not the solution

Shouldn't the person that created the puzzle get to decide how much help (or even the solution) should be given so someone that wants to find the cache?

I solved a puzzle cache a few years ago that, from what I understand, took several people about a year to construct. It's extremely elaborate and took me over a month to solve (and from reading other logs from those that also solved it seemed to be the typical amount of time needed), and based on the fact that it's rated 5* for difficult, that's what the puzzle creators intended. Then along comes someone that decides to "help" or even provides the solution to a fellow geocacher, effectively turn that 5* difficulty puzzle that took a year to create into a 2* difficulty hide.

If that seems unreasonable to provide "help" such that it turning a 5* cache into a 2* cache, where do you draw the line?

February 28, 2013

yes offcourse you can ask others too, just ask for a bit help, not the solution

Shouldn't the person that created the puzzle get to decide how much help (or even the solution) should be given so someone that wants to find the cache?

I solved a puzzle cache a few years ago that, from what I understand, took several people about a year to construct. It's extremely elaborate and took me over a month to solve (and from reading other logs from those that also solved it seemed to be the typical amount of time needed), and based on the fact that it's rated 5* for difficult, that's what the puzzle creators intended. Then along comes someone that decides to "help" or even provides the solution to a fellow geocacher, effectively turn that 5* difficulty puzzle that took a year to create into a 2* difficulty hide.

If that seems unreasonable to provide "help" such that it turning a 5* cache into a 2* cache, where do you draw the line?

You don't draw a line, you allow people to geocache the way they want to cache. I create my caches for people to go out and enjoy. If they ask someone else for help, thats thier loss for not solving the way it was intended.

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