Fraudulent Finds

[+ozzieleroy]

Do people ever come across people who log finds of a cache before you, then when you get there, they is no sign of them signing the log? If so, what did you do? Did you call them or the co on it? I just ran across this & it seems to be a little bit of a dilemma for me.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Well if it's not your cache, I wouldn't worry about it.

[+StarBrand]

I've seen it on local caches from time to time. One cache - I'll let it go. Several caches & I'll email the cacher in question to see if there is a simple explanation. If no response, I'll let the COs know and let them deal with it as they see fit. A few of locals have let me know of this - I'll attempt contact with the cacher and then delete logs if necessary. I usually see they are from another country or logged caches a thousand miles apart on the same day. Sometimes though there is a more innocent explanation.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Calling them "fraudulent" immediately sets up a certain response.

What I see both as a cache seeker and a cache owner is a rising tide of logging errors.

 

I'm guessing this is a function of phone use, though there has always been some of this - people typing in GCCodes to get to logging pages and making mistakes.

 

Lately I see quite a bit more of this, and I'm guessing that some phone users are selecting a cache to hunt, and logging a find as an error, (wrong keystroke on that tiny little screen) when abandoning that hunt and picking a different cache.

 

I tend to be fairly passive about this. I figure the people who stay in the game will probably figure it out, and may well straighten out their own logs, and those who drop out won't.

 

I once ribbed a friend of mine about his log on a high terrain cache in Colorado (he was central Florida, and had some respiratory issues). I was checking to see his recent finds, looking to see what might work for us to do together and noticed it... it was a FTF too. Some remote mountain top accessible with an overnight packing trip or really longwalking it. His log, "thanks for the nice walk".. ;-) Just a wrong GC Code entry. The cache owner was probably really wondering.

[+OZ2CPU]

if the log book is ONE page or ONE sheet, and nothing was cut off or missing there.

then you see no signature.. sure, ask politely arround,

but please dont start to ask in a negative way or call people bad stuff,

you might find the error and even help out people to log right and to use their IT systems,

not all people are IT experts.

 

if it is an old log, and the logbook got several easy to fall out pages,

let it go..

 

always take pictures of logs, both sides of the sheet

email evidence to the CO, and let him do what if feels is right.

you can continue to investigate the cacher in question to see if this continue,

was it a fault ? or is he cheating on purpose.

 

All people are compleetly ok with errors, we all do them.

but all people dislike cheaters. and a cheater dont like to be revealed

Edited February 15, 2013 by OZ2CPU

[+ras_oscar]

On 1 or 2 occasions I have inadvertently logged a cache I did not visit. I noticed because it was in a state where I have never cached. I immediately deleted the erroneous log. It is important to me that I keep my logs correct. Its not my responsibility to police other people's logs.

[+MartyBartfast]

There could be many 'innocent' explainations:

 

On any small logs you'll never see my name in the log, but you'll find one of MartyB, Marty, MB or even M depending on how much space is available, even in some full sized log books I tend to write MartyB much of the time.

 

There's also the possibility of names in the log book being out of order, I've seen books where names have been entered from the 'front' and the 'back', someone might have turned over a couple of pages and written their name out of sequence.

 

I signed one a before Christmas when I was hanging on for dear life up a tree and wasn't going to risk leafing through several rolls of paper to find the previous log so I signed it at the first blank spot I found, so that will be out of sequence and the next finder might not see my name, but it's there.

 

Pages may have dropped out of the log.

 

Some people don't sign the logs but leave a calling card or sticker.

 

If I came across it I would think it's none of my business (unless it was my cache), and so would do nothing about it; if you really think you must do something then mail the CO and they can deal with it if they want to, but I would advise against using terms such as fraudulent/cheat/dishonest etc until you know the whole story as that's likely to upset someone.

[+S&SLaird]

There has been more than once instance of a ture Letterbox and Geocache located in the same area and cachers have found and logged the wrong container. Plus many other reasons the log may not have a name on it but in the end I am not about to become the policing authority of Geocaching. I found it, I logged it. If someone else didn't find it and still logged it that is on them not me. What other cachers do with their logs doesn't affect me in any way. I find it far more bother some when I find caches that aren't closed properly and I see the same person logged it last as other ones that I have found open. Find the cache and return it as you found it...but if its open CLOSE IT!

[+J Grouchy]

My wife and I were out in Nevada last week and had some time to hit a few caches in the area near our hotel. While we were signing a log for one, a guy walking by slowly and studying his phone saw us and asked if we were caching. Turned out he also was one, but when I offered him the log to sign he said he usually didn't bother signing them. I was surprised by this...to me it almost doesn't seem like a true find without signing the paper log (though, in fairness, I suppose it wouldn't have been a "true find" since I technically found it for him...).

[+Isonzo Karst]

when I offered him the log to sign he said he usually didn't bother signing them. I was surprised by this...to me it almost doesn't seem like a true find without signing the paper log

 

He may not be logging on line either. This is another thing I see more of. People who cache, generally pretty casually, who don't log online. Hard to know about those who don't sign, unless, like you, you've actually witnessed it.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I don't worry about who has or hasn't signed the physical cache log unless it is something special (locked, evil hide, up a tree, etc).

 

I've met a few cachers who don't log online.

[+Mudfrog]

Part of the responsibilty of being a cache owner is to watch for fraudulent logging.

 

This in the gc.com guidelines:

 

"2.Geocache Maintenance

•Owner is responsible for geocache listing maintenance.

As the owner of your cache listing, your responsibility includes quality control of all posts to the cache listing. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off-topic or otherwise inappropriate."

 

I do watch for logs that are off topic and inappropriate, but to be honest, i don't go out of my way to check for bogus logs. It's gotta be something obvious for me before i ask questions. There have been a few instances where a found log just didn't look right. On a couple of them, a nice, non condemning, but enquiring email to the finder was all it took took to straighten things out. Both times were a result of the finders typing the name of the cache in and not noticing that it wasn't the one they had actually found.

 

One occasion that looked like deliberate fraud resulted in deletion of that log after never receiving a response from the so called finder.

[+cx1]

Do people ever come across people who log finds of a cache before you, then when you get there, they is no sign of them signing the log? If so, what did you do? Did you call them or the co on it? I just ran across this & it seems to be a little bit of a dilemma for me.

 

Why is this a dilemma?

If you are not the CO or the previous finder then why would this have any effect on you?

Are you in some type of competition with this previous finder?

As others have mentioned there are a multitude of reasons why you might not find a person's signature on the physical log yet they have logged the find on-line. So are you wanting to make it your business to specifically know why it happened in each particular cache you happen to run across?

As a cache owner or as a cache seeker I would think you were being a busybody if you contacted me about it either way.

[+dprovan]

Oh, good question! First of all, there are normally a lot of reasonable explanations, so chances are good there's nothing nefarious going on. But that doesn't stop me from making a snide comment in my log just for fun, particularly if it involves someone I know. I assume it's obvious that I'm being tongue in cheek, since there's not really any reason for anyone that's found lots of caches would bother to fake one.

 

On the other hand, a couple of times I've run into cases where there really is some reason to think the log's not legit. For example, some newbie logs a tough puzzle cache as if it was a drive up which makes me think he logged to the wrong cache. If I spot the missing signature in a case like that, I'll just make a casual comment in my log to alert the CO in case he wants to check it out. It doesn't really matter to me one way or the other what happens after that.

[+NeverSummer]

If it isn't your cache listing, let it go. Getting worked up about it isn't going to help you at all.

 

This game isn't a contest; it is all about YOU. If an issue doesn't impact you personally (in this case, that would mean a "bogus" log on one of YOUR caches), let it go.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

...since there's not really any reason for anyone that's found lots of caches would bother to fake one.

 

There are lots of reasons, padding numbers at the top of the list.

 

And I have found several instances where a cacher claimed a find online, but didn't sign the log book.

[+OZ2CPU]

dont think negative all the time.. if you are aware of an error, it may only be an error,

maybe the person will be happy to know he did an error, and even thank you for the help and education,

it is wise to help, but bad to play police,

it dont take a trained psychiatrist to figure out how to act nice with your wisdom.

[+NeverSummer]

...since there's not really any reason for anyone that's found lots of caches would bother to fake one.

 

There are lots of reasons, padding numbers at the top of the list.

 

And I have found several instances where a cacher claimed a find online, but didn't sign the log book.

Perhaps they used a white crayon?

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I think we have been pretty responsible about logging the same cache on-line that we found, but recently, it seems some hiders are lacking creativity in their cache naming conventions...XYZ#1, XYZ#2, XYZ#3 etc. I can see where mistakes could happen.

[+OZ2CPU]

same rules apply to a 1/1 as a 5/5

dont matter if it is under a lamp skirt or 45 feet up a tree over a cliff and you spend 4 days hiking to the location,

you find it, you sign its logbook or logsheet, and then log it as found online,

it is dead easy to understand.

[+luvvinbird]

To my knowledge, I'm not aware of anyone falsely logging a find on any of my caches. But, I've had several geocachers who located the cache but were unable to sign the log due to reasons they explained in their stories (no pen, the dog ran off, etc.). I'm cool with the occasional "geo-mishap" especially when moms and dads got the kids out for an adventure and discovered, while observing the contents of the cache, that they had no pen.

[+OZ2CPU]

the REMEMBER a pen is a mandetory geocaching lesson :-)

you loose your pen, end of geo caching for that day,

I tried that, what a bummer !!

I even had TWO with me so it could not happen, but it did,

both where located in same pocket, I forgot to zip it, then fall, bad day...

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

dont think negative all the time.. if you are aware of an error, it may only be an error,

maybe the person will be happy to know he did an error, and even thank you for the help and education,

it is wise to help, but bad to play police,

it dont take a trained psychiatrist to figure out how to act nice with your wisdom.

 

I usually just shake my head and move on.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

same rules apply to a 1/1 as a 5/5

dont matter if it is under a lamp skirt or 45 feet up a tree over a cliff and you spend 4 days hiking to the location,

you find it, you sign its logbook or logsheet, and then log it as found online,

it is dead easy to understand.

If this was in response to my post above it, maybe google didn't translate well.

[+fbingha]

I recently found a few caches that followed finds by an out of towner cacher passing through. Some of the caches they signed, some of them they didn't. Of the cache I couldn't find, GC1D5Y0, I just left a DNF note explaining my surprise that the cacher found it since the cache was obviously gone, given the circumstances of the area. I just chuckle at the desire to fake finds

[+lamoracke]

Still remember a cache vividly that I must have been so preoccupied trading 5 coins and travel bugs on this puzzle cache, I forgot to sign the cache apparently. Next finder said last finder used invisible ink and then the CO deleted my find, after disabling the cache which let the entire community know about it and who got deleted. So, if you want to make it public, you run the risk of really making a fun hobby not fun for people. Still leaves a bad taste in my mouth how that was handled, without going into more details.

 

Sometimes folks sign the back pages of the book, sometimes they forget. I looked up all the signatures on my PEACE cache and saw about 8-10 of the logs had no signatures (which included exhaustive efforts to figure out who was on which team that day, etc etc). Some of them were prolific finders and even friends of mine. I just tucked away the information in my head. Not worth a fight or an email even. If I saw a cacher doing it over and over, maybe then I might consider saying something, but on one cache? Not worth it.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I've run across two egregious example. Both have been discussed in this forum.

One was travelling around the country and seemed to be logging 20-30 caches a day. Logged two of my caches one day. They're only two miles apart, but at least an hour's drive. Not to mention the tolls. No one had ever done those two in one day. Check the logs, and he hadn't signed either. My sister checked her cache that he had logged. Nope. No signataure there either. His thousands of finds were deleted. I should think that they qualified as 'fraudulent'.

The other was a trucker who came through during a major snowstorm. Logged my rest stop cache (no trucks permitted) and the one on the other side of the Interstate. Getting both of those adds ten miles to your trip. And he logged one a couple miles down an unplowed road with a fallen tree across the road. (The road is not well maintained, especially during a major snowstorm.)

So, yeah. Fraudulent finds do happen.

[+CdAGeoGeeks]

We have someone in our area that loves FTFs. If it's late out, or bad weather, he quickly logs as an FTF online to discourage other chasers, then goes out at his own pace knowing no one is out there and the chance of him getting called out on it is low. It really ruins the fun for some people in the area.

[+J Grouchy]

We have someone in our area that loves FTFs. If it's late out, or bad weather, he quickly logs as an FTF online to discourage other chasers, then goes out at his own pace knowing no one is out there and the chance of him getting called out on it is low. It really ruins the fun for some people in the area.

 

If I were the 'poor sportsmanship' type, I'd say that's brilliant. For us fair-minded sort, though, that's slimy!

[+BCandMsKitty]

The only time I've ever gotten involved (I don't compare signatures to logs even on my own caches) was once we found a clever cache hide with a decoy film canister in the area the cache description lured you to ... the wrong side of a fence....! The decoy had a slip of paper in it telling you it wasn't the cache, and to keep looking. Someone had obviously not read the paper, or didn't care to keep looking, and signed it as a find. Quick email to the CO and let them decide whether to deal with it, or not. From the tone of the thanks email I got back, I think the Co was just going to let it ride.

After all, it's not that big of a deal, and anyone being deliberately "fraudulent" is only cheating themselves.

Edited February 16, 2013 by BC & MsKitty

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

We have someone in our area that loves FTFs. If it's late out, or bad weather, he quickly logs as an FTF online to discourage other chasers, then goes out at his own pace knowing no one is out there and the chance of him getting called out on it is low. It really ruins the fun for some people in the area.

 

The dude is just asking for an April Fool's Day prank. Maybe hide a cache with a log pre-signed by some of the other locals, and get it published late at night. When he pulls this stunt, have everyone else correct him, saying they didn't see his signature when they logged.

[+S&SLaird]

We have someone in our area that loves FTFs. If it's late out, or bad weather, he quickly logs as an FTF online to discourage other chasers, then goes out at his own pace knowing no one is out there and the chance of him getting called out on it is low. It really ruins the fun for some people in the area.

 

The dude is just asking for an April Fool's Day prank. Maybe hide a cache with a log pre-signed by some of the other locals, and get it published late at night. When he pulls this stunt, have everyone else correct him, saying they didn't see his signature when they logged.

 

Thats just dirty.....I LOVE IT!!!!

[+Planet]

I do not compare logbooks against online logs. I might if it were my cache and I thought there was a need to check. The only cache I am a stickler about logs on is my virtual. Improper logs could shut it down. I recently had an improper log notification email sent to me for a log that was dated 2007. I went back and forth, even offered another method they could use to prove they were there. They could not. So I deleted the log. They still posted a note saying they were there. I checked their logs. It's pretty easy to tell they were not in this country at that time, but regardless, they did not verify the log.

[AZcachemeister]

What's funny is when someone logs a 'find' on a cache that is down for maintenance...because the cache is on your desk waiting to be put back in play.

 

Almost as funny is the 'I couldn't find it so I replaced it and logged a find.' log.

 

I typically don't reconcile the logbook, but I will have a look if I suspect some hanky-panky is afoot.

[+cpine]

Well if it's not your cache, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Even if it is yor cache why worry about it? Truly! The integrity in this game comes form the signer not anyone else. If that person is ok with having a bunch of numbers in his stats that are not truly finds .... ok? I don't get it but whatever. if they want to do it that way I don't care. Numbers don't really matter to me anyways.

 

Chris

[+lamoracke]

 

I typically don't reconcile the logbook, but I will have a look if I suspect some hanky-panky is afoot.

 

Hanky panky afoot? I imagine many of us would take a look at that as well.

[+dprovan]

...since there's not really any reason for anyone that's found lots of caches would bother to fake one.

There are lots of reasons, padding numbers at the top of the list.

I'm so glad I don't run into people that think like that. What I meant, of course, is that there's no reason for me to think anyone would fake it. You are correct that I should not have ruled out the possibility of some poor soul coming up with some ridiculous reason they thought made sense. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about that being the case with any of the people I'd razz about a missing signature.

 

Although if it happened to be true for some reason beyond my imagination, then me razzing them makes even more sense. I always view it as good natured ribbing about some trivial oversight, but it wouldn't bother me if it happened to hit home without my knowing it.

[+Andromeda321]

I get plenty of attempts on my Earthcaches, usually by people who think it'd be fun or who visited years before and are trying to sneak in a retroactive find.

 

For physical caches, I freely admit that I don't always sign my logs because often I find I don't have a pen or some such (I am surprisingly awful at remembering pens!). If the CO ever contacts me to delete a find because it's not signed it's their right to do so, but that's yet to happen.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Well if it's not your cache, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Even if it is yor cache why worry about it? Truly! The integrity in this game comes form the signer not anyone else. If that person is ok with having a bunch of numbers in his stats that are not truly finds .... ok? I don't get it but whatever. if they want to do it that way I don't care. Numbers don't really matter to me anyways.

 

Chris

 

I agree. Sometimes when I go to replace a log for one of my caches, I check the names against the online names, just for curiousity sake. Usually I find MORE names on the physical log than on the online log. However, most of the time I'm far too lazy and uninterested to check.

[+Lil Devil]

Usually I find MORE names on the physical log than on the online log.

That's usually my experience, as well.

[+tozainamboku]

Usually I find MORE names on the physical log than on the online log.

That's usually my experience, as well.

Mine as well. I will cross out fraudulent names in my logbook if there isn't an online found log. That takes care of that problem.

[GOF and Bacall]

Usually I find MORE names on the physical log than on the online log.

That's usually my experience, as well.

Mine as well. I will cross out fraudulent names in my logbook if there isn't an online found log. That takes care of that problem.

 

You darn dirty puritan!

 

[+simpjkee]

I used to watch over my logbooks and logs on my caches like a hawk. I wanted to catch people 'cheating' and yadda yadda to keep the game 'fair'. It's virtually impossible to police it accurately though and I've realized that there are no real rules or governing body so there is really no such thing as 'cheating' and 'fairness' in geocaching. It's all just how people play their game. At this point I pay little (if any) attention to policing logs on my caches. If it seems like there was a mistake made, I might send the cacher an email if I think it would help straighten out an error. Someone recently did this on an error I made and I greatly appreciated it. If I saw what I believed to be fraudulent logging, I don't think I'd do anything. At this point, I just worry about my own logging methods. I don't worry about anyone elses.