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Groundspeak is all about the $$$?


DCWarrior

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........ It seems absurd to me that the work I put

into hiding geocaches would go to a company that would also charge me to use their services.......

 

We have hidden a ton of caches and I don't resent a company that charges me to use their services.

 

PAul

 

.

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It's not a religion, and it's not a charity. It's not even a political action committee. If Groundspeak provides a little bit of worthwhile service to a lot of people or a lot of irreplaceable service to a few people, then they deserve the same level of reward in return. If they misjudge the service that they've provided and attempt to get more than they deserve, then we'll know it, because enough people will quit their service that they end up generating less revenue. That problem will likely correct itself.

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It wouldn't be so offending except that Grounspeak originally said they would NOT do that. That it would ALWAYS be fully open!

To be clear, Groundspeak, nor it's founders, never said that. What Jeremy said was "traditional geocaching itself will never be a pay to play service."

 

You can come to this website today, and still do the same things for free, that you could do when the site was first created. You can still find caches without paying a cent. There has even been much improvement in the site for non-paying users.

 

However, if you have the means, sure, you can pay a modest fee and get a bunch of perks that may make your experience better. But that doesn't mean that you have to.

I seriously doubt Geocaching.com was founded with profit as the intent.

I was here ten years ago, and it was not nearly as commercial in feel.

The "modest fee" has gotten a lot less modest while I've been away.

Advertising would have more than covered the costs of Geocaching.com, with a healthy profit.

I have a geocache that dates back quite a while - and still gets found regularly.

People have been logging finds recently, which made me think about finding a few caches again.

I figured I might even return to the hobby, so I looked for the android phone app.

$10... you have got to be kidding.

$30 per year to be a premium member - and more and more content is becoming available only to premium members?

Making a profit is fine, but the spirit of Geocaching has been lost at Groundspeak.

It really makes me sad to see this. It was so much better when it was focused on the hobby

more than business profits.

I doubt I will return to the hobby other than an occasional find here and there, and my one remaining geocache hide.

If that one ever gets plundered, I doubt I would replace it. It seems absurd to me that the work I put

into hiding geocaches would go to a company that would also charge me to use their services.

But I will say "kudos to Groundspeak" for leaving this message thread and allowing the discussion.

There are other companies which would delete negative comments from their forums.

 

This post (below) says almost exactly what I was trying to say, but far better than I could ever say it:

Actually, my sincere thanks primarily go to the cache hiders in my area and not to Groundspeak. GS provides some infrastructure, but the heart and the soul of geocaching is the community. I do not care at all about PQs, improved cache maps, bookmark lists and many other features that have added to the site over the years. On the other hand, there have been many changes like allowing powertrails and opening up geocaching.com to many languages that changed geocaching to the worse for me. So the level of thankfullness I feel towards Groundspeak is rather limited. I do not take it for granted, but it is clear to me that their wish to focus on growth is against what I personally welcome.

The issue of commercialism is for me not about whether Jeremy and others earn a lot and not about whether the 30$ PM-ship is cheap or expensive (I regard it as cheap), but about the dangers of turning something into a business that should not be a business from my point of view.

Cezanne

 

Focus not, on the Premium memberships. Their biggest revenue source is in the tracking numbers. A buck or two for every single Geocoin ever manufactured? Six bucks for an aluminum dog tag that costs pennies to produce? You didn't hear this from me or anything though. :ph34r:

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The "modest fee" has gotten a lot less modest while I've been away.

Interesting comment. I paid $30 when it first started and paid $30 this year. With inflation the "modest fee" has actually gotten even more modest.

 

I was wondering what he was talking about. I thought at first he was another European subscriber whining over the VAT charges, but he's from Seattle. The premium membership hasn't gone up a penny in 10+ years for US subscribers. So I'm still wondering what he is talking about.

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The "modest fee" has gotten a lot less modest while I've been away.

Interesting comment. I paid $30 when it first started and paid $30 this year. With inflation the "modest fee" has actually gotten even more modest.

 

I was wondering what he was talking about. I thought at first he was another European subscriber whining over the VAT charges, but he's from Seattle. The premium membership hasn't gone up a penny in 10+ years for US subscribers. So I'm still wondering what he is talking about.

 

From what I can get out of it, I think he means more and more content is only available to premium members. I dunno, maybe a bunch of people in his area are making all their caches PMO? :blink: He could be talking about the restrictions on the smartphone apps for non PMO's also. I have no clue what they are, but I have heard there are some. :)

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Perhaps my memory has faded with time, but I don't remember spending that much back then.

I looked at it like a donation because there were not many features the premium membership

got for a user. Now the limitations of the free membership make the whole hobby feel far

more commercial.

 

But, $14.99 seems appropriate to me, and $2.99 is about the going rate for most droid apps...

especially a phone app that you need in order to use a service you already paid for.

 

I'm assuming the $30 membership doesn't include free downloads of the phone app.

 

I just don't like the look and feel of the way the website has gone. The first thing I got

when I came back after a few years of being away was an in your face popup asking for money.

Some hobbies really should not be commercialized. I loved Geocaching when it was just people

working together to hide caches and going out and finding them. Now it has become something else.

 

If I hadn't seen what it was before, I might not mind what it has become, but I liked what it

was ten years ago much better than what it is like now.

 

I think it was the grassroots nature of the hobby that attracted me to it in the first place.

 

I'm preparing for a vacation, and considered installing a geocache app on my phone and doing a couple of geocaches if time permits. For $1.99 I would have got the official app. For $3.99 I would have waited to see if I will have time to use it. For $9.99 it's not worth it to me. A free or $0.99 app would actually be a smart move because it could introduce people to the hobby, and they might opt for a premium membership later (which would be $15 to $20 max if I owned the company).

 

Sometimes charging a lower price increases profits. As the hobby became more popular, it would have made sense for the cost to go down, rather than increase.

Edited by Mark 42
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Perhaps my memory has faded with time, but I don't remember spending that much back then.

I looked at it like a donation because there were not many features the premium membership

got for a user. Now the limitations of the free membership make the whole hobby feel far

more commercial.

 

The price hasn't changed since day one, it's always been $30. Sure there are more perks for subscribers, ya gotta give them a carrot, but the basic game is just as free as it always was. I think even some perks that were formerly for premium members only are now available to non members, so their experience has improved somewhat at no cost to them.

 

I just don't like the look and feel of the way the website has gone. The first thing I got

when I came back after a few years of being away was an in your face popup asking for money.

Some hobbies really should not be commercialized. I loved Geocaching when it was just people

working together to hide caches and going out and finding them. Now it has become something else.

 

The main thing that geocaching has become in your absence is much, much bigger (for better or worse). Groundspeak has had to expand their staff and infrastructure accordingly and that takes a lot of money. I heard somewhere that they now have 70 employees. It doesn't seem that long ago since Jeremy was still reviewing caches and moderating the forums and the paid staff was 5 or 6 people. So it has become a big business out of necessity. The neat thing though is that it is still a site largely run by geocachers, for geocachers. The owners and employees are making a living, but I don't think they are getting fabulously wealthy.

 

Your complaint is not a new one. I'm sure we can easily dig up complaints in these forums about commercialism going back to 2000 or 2001, but at its essence the game is still about people working together at the grassroots level to hide and find caches. That part hasn't changed.

Edited by briansnat
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Your complaint is not a new one. I'm sure we can easily dig up complaints in these forums about commercialism going back to 2000 or 2001, but at its essence the game is still about people working together at the grassroots level to hide and find caches. That part hasn't changed.

 

If you go back to the original gps stash group on Yahoo, there were complaints about commercialization as soon as Grounded incorporated and the site began to accept ads, sell products, or started paid memberships. The APE caches were also seen upon as part of this. From the start, Jeremy made no secret that he looked for ways to make money, but in response to the critics he pledged to keep the basic aspect of the game free. So far he has done that.

 

There are many things that I do not like about Groundspeak or policies it has adopted. And I often think that I remain in this game in spite of them rather because of them. But commercialization is not one if the things on my list.

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So it has become a big business out of necessity. The neat thing though is that it is still a site largely run by geocachers, for geocachers. The owners and employees are making a living, but I don't think they are getting fabulously wealthy.

 

In my opinion, Groundspeak has actively worked on turning it into a big business and they are still making a lot of efforts to grow.

Personally, I would not mind if the owners of Groundspeak are fabulously wealthy - money has never been important for me.

 

What I do not like is the focus on perpetual growth. I do not feel that the way is site is run fits to what has been the spirit of geocaching for me. For example, since quite a while Groundspeak actively supports the numbers game. When I read the recent blog entry about the 31 souvenirs for August and how to keep a streak going, I was close to vomitting.

 

Moreover, I think that Groundspeak has lost the touch to their customers. They do not seem to care any longer about the wishes of the majority of their customers. For me this is much worse than if they would charge say 60$ for a PM-ship.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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So it has become a big business out of necessity. The neat thing though is that it is still a site largely run by geocachers, for geocachers. The owners and employees are making a living, but I don't think they are getting fabulously wealthy.

 

In my opinion, Groundspeak has actively worked on turning it into a big business and they are still making a lot of efforts to grow.

Personally, I would not mind if the owners of Groundspeak are fabulously wealthy - money has never been important for me.

 

What I do not like is the focus on perpetual growth. I do not feel that the way is site is run fits to what has been the spirit of geocaching for me. For example, since quite a while Groundspeak actively supports the numbers game. When I read the recent blog entry about the 31 souvenirs for August and how to keep a streak going, I was close to vomitting.

 

Moreover, I think that Groundspeak has lost the touch to their customers. They do not seem to care any longer about the wishes of the majority of their customers. For me this is much worse than if they would charge say 60$ for a PM-ship.

 

Cezanne

 

Like this?

 

f5e9b0e3-e14b-4827-9148-4ebe6685a15e.jpg

An easy lampost geocache, perfect for geocaching streaks

 

 

 

The 11:30pm, 12:00am trick

 

This one is simple: find a geocache at 11:30pm, wait a half hour, then find another geocache. Boom. That’s two days down in less than an hour. Warning: Before you use this method, double check the recent activity to make sure your 11:30 geocache is there. If it’s missing or you can’t find it, you could accidentally end your streak.

 

There are not many geocaches that can be found at night legally. Even the ones in the Taco Bell parking lot most likely have no permission.

 

I'm wondering why there are no souvenirs for countries like Italy, while there are ones for every day in August?

How about this challenge: They could create one new souvenir every day for each country that doesn't have one.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Perhaps my memory has faded with time, but I don't remember spending that much back then. I looked at it like a donation because there were not many features the premium membership got for a user. Now the limitations of the free membership make the whole hobby feel far more commercial.

 

I joined before I purchased a gpsr simply because I knew I would be using the site. You are right. It did feel like a donation. Groundspeak had already begun to accept ads and sell various items, but the differences in features between basic and premium memberships were not pronounced. I don't recall anything in particular motivating me other than the belief that I should contribute. The only thing I paid particular attention to was Groundspeak's contractual obligation not to raise the membership rates as long as I renewed -- they no longer promise this to new members, but it seemed like a remarkable commitment.

 

Undoubtedly, there is a more commercial feel to the site and to the game. Part of this is the way that the game has grown. When I joined, numbers were far less important to the game. There were no repetitive trails. Lamp post hides were few and far between. There were not any number of other sites selling geocoins, gear, containers, and other items. Groundspeak did not insist on giving people "souvenirs." With growth, new features were added and other things taken away. I agree with Cezanne that Groundspeak became less responsive to customers, making it seem much more commercial. Still, I have always appreciated that the core aspect of this game can be done for free.

 

I'm preparing for a vacation, and considered installing a geocache app on my phone and doing a couple of geocaches if time permits. For $1.99 I would have got the official app. For $3.99 I would have waited to see if I will have time to use it. For $9.99 it's not worth it to me. A free or $0.99 app would actually be a smart move because it could introduce people to the hobby, and they might opt for a premium membership later (which would be $15 to $20 max if I owned the company).

 

Perhaps no longer needing a handheld gosr has made the game see more commercial. There are people who find that the Groundspeak app is all they need and never become a premium member. So the $9.99 seems like a business decision to allow people to find any number of caches without becoming paid members. In that respect, it is not a bad deal. Of course there are others, like me, who are premium members but find that other apps are better -- or see no need to use any. That Groundspeak has not raised rates for new members (EU excepted for raising rates beyond VAT) still seems remarkable.

 

As a practical matter, there are free or lower cost apps that allow you to download the full cache information for up to three caches a day. Perhaps that is all that you would need. These days, I have gone full circle and rarely look for more than that in a day. Or you do not need to use a caching app at all. A browser to obtain coordinates and a free gps app retains the basic aspect of the game -- see a cache that you might want to do, enter coordinates, and find it.

Edited by geodarts
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The lack of increase in the PM price for US cachers not withstanding, Groundspeak is increasingly (more and more) about the almighty $$$.

 

I'm not sure I can blame them, but is indeed the case.

 

Long gone are the days when the mention of an issue concerning site performance would generate an immediate response and a solution produced within a day or two.

 

Nowadays, efforts to ensnare new users takes precedence.

 

If you expect a site update to address an issue like missing TBs, you might as well be howling at the moon.

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Perhaps my memory has faded with time, but I don't remember spending that much back then.

I looked at it like a donation because there were not many features the premium membership

got for a user. Now the limitations of the free membership make the whole hobby feel far

more commercial.

 

But, $14.99 seems appropriate to me, and $2.99 is about the going rate for most droid apps...

especially a phone app that you need in order to use a service you already paid for.

 

I'm assuming the $30 membership doesn't include free downloads of the phone app.

 

I just don't like the look and feel of the way the website has gone. The first thing I got

when I came back after a few years of being away was an in your face popup asking for money.

Some hobbies really should not be commercialized. I loved Geocaching when it was just people

working together to hide caches and going out and finding them. Now it has become something else.

 

If I hadn't seen what it was before, I might not mind what it has become, but I liked what it

was ten years ago much better than what it is like now.

 

I think it was the grassroots nature of the hobby that attracted me to it in the first place.

 

I'm preparing for a vacation, and considered installing a geocache app on my phone and doing a couple of geocaches if time permits. For $1.99 I would have got the official app. For $3.99 I would have waited to see if I will have time to use it. For $9.99 it's not worth it to me. A free or $0.99 app would actually be a smart move because it could introduce people to the hobby, and they might opt for a premium membership later (which would be $15 to $20 max if I owned the company).

 

Sometimes charging a lower price increases profits. As the hobby became more popular, it would have made sense for the cost to go down, rather than increase.

 

You make some good points. Very well thought out post. Most of the people with "Groundspeak is bringing in millions" posts are usually raving lunatics. :laughing: And I'll tell you what, they are. The company I work for, of 50 Employees (as opposed to 70) does indeed bring in Millions in revenue per year.

 

The cost of the official Geocaching.com smartphone apps is WAY above the average, no doubt about that. That generally falls on deaf ears, and has plenty of "defenders", who always say it's a good value for the joy Geocaching brings them.

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The cost of the official Geocaching.com smartphone apps is WAY above the average, no doubt about that.

From what I've heard (haven't actually checked, since I don't have a smartphone), third-party geocaching apps cost about the same. Except for the one freebie I've heard of, which isn't approved by GS.

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Perhaps my memory has faded with time, but I don't remember spending that much back then.

I looked at it like a donation because there were not many features the premium membership

got for a user. Now the limitations of the free membership make the whole hobby feel far

more commercial.

 

But, $14.99 seems appropriate to me, and $2.99 is about the going rate for most droid apps...

especially a phone app that you need in order to use a service you already paid for.

 

I'm assuming the $30 membership doesn't include free downloads of the phone app.

 

I just don't like the look and feel of the way the website has gone. The first thing I got

when I came back after a few years of being away was an in your face popup asking for money.

Some hobbies really should not be commercialized. I loved Geocaching when it was just people

working together to hide caches and going out and finding them. Now it has become something else.

 

If I hadn't seen what it was before, I might not mind what it has become, but I liked what it

was ten years ago much better than what it is like now.

 

I think it was the grassroots nature of the hobby that attracted me to it in the first place.

 

I'm preparing for a vacation, and considered installing a geocache app on my phone and doing a couple of geocaches if time permits. For $1.99 I would have got the official app. For $3.99 I would have waited to see if I will have time to use it. For $9.99 it's not worth it to me. A free or $0.99 app would actually be a smart move because it could introduce people to the hobby, and they might opt for a premium membership later (which would be $15 to $20 max if I owned the company).

 

Sometimes charging a lower price increases profits. As the hobby became more popular, it would have made sense for the cost to go down, rather than increase.

 

You make some good points. Very well thought out post. Most of the people with "Groundspeak is bringing in millions" posts are usually raving lunatics. :laughing: And I'll tell you what, they are. The company I work for, of 50 Employees (as opposed to 70) does indeed bring in Millions in revenue per year.

 

The cost of the official Geocaching.com smartphone apps is WAY above the average, no doubt about that. That generally falls on deaf ears, and has plenty of "defenders", who always say it's a good value for the joy Geocaching brings them.

 

But if you make it cheaper then you'll have even more fly-by-night iPhone geocachers hiding LPCs and GRCs.

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Long gone are the days when the mention of an issue concerning site performance would generate an immediate response and a solution produced within a day or two.

 

Personally, I could well live with longer response times if there is some form of response at all.

Currently it feels like that they completely ignore what cachers ask for and somehow it appears that they do not even listen.

 

When I read the text of the first August souvenir

http://www.geocaching.com/souvenir/?guid=eefb307b-0a0f-4f19-b543-008ca61c8f54

it reinforced my feeling that Groundspeak's idea about the spirit of geocaching is by now completely disjoint from mine.

 

I do not think that someone who finds an arbitrary selected cache on an arbitrary day plays a big part in a grand adventure.

The basis of geocaching is provided neither by Groundspeak nor by those who go out and find caches, but by those who hide great caches and maintain them over time. I would prefer that their role is stressed.

 

Cezanne

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I've seen many companies start out doing great. Restaurants mostly where their food starts out being really good. But then they feel they need to change for some reason and that's when things start going downhill. I figure greed is the culprit so in order to bring in more profit, they begin using cheaper ingredients, change up the menu, and raise their prices. It almost never fails those establishments find themselve losing customers and then eventually going out of business.

 

Although Groundspeak is not in the restaurant business, i do feel they are heading down this path. Customer service is going away. Listening to what their customers want is a thing of the past. They are promoting gimics that are not good for our hobby. They're bringing in more and more outside advertisers that we customers have to put up with. They're also adding more and more restrictive guidelines, which in my opinion, are taking some of the fun away. At this point, their strategy seems to be quantity over quality, which tells me that making the quick buck is the primary focus now. :(

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Well with an employee base of 70 people, their payroll is estimated to be around $2 million per year. That averages to each cache roughly generating $1 per year in revenue. There is coin fees, advertising, and PMs, but it just doesn't seem enough to cover everything. A boost in hides indicates overall more activity and more cache flow... :D

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Well with an employee base of 70 people, their payroll is estimated to be around $2 million per year. That averages to each cache roughly generating $1 per year in revenue. There is coin fees, advertising, and PMs, but it just doesn't seem enough to cover everything. A boost in hides indicates overall more activity and more cache flow... :D

 

I think your numbers are slightly off. There is no way you can get talented programming skills in the Seattle area for $30K per year.

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Well with an employee base of 70 people, their payroll is estimated to be around $2 million per year. That averages to each cache roughly generating $1 per year in revenue. There is coin fees, advertising, and PMs, but it just doesn't seem enough to cover everything. A boost in hides indicates overall more activity and more cache flow... :D

Say what? That is an average of $13.71 per employee. Factor in benefits and the average salary is minimum wage or less. Some how I think it is a bit more than that seeing as how Groundspeak is one of the top places to work in Seattle.

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It seems absurd to me that the work I put into hiding geocaches would go to a company that would also charge me to use their services.

 

I'm guessing you don't own a website. I do. It's not much, but it's home.

 

When I first signed up for it years ago, I could only have 2 GB of storage and 25 GB of transfer a month. That, plus my own domain name and email addresses, cost $12.95 per month, $155.40 per year. (And I had to provide all the content myself.) I now pay about half that and get more out of it, but my yearly cost is still more than twice the $30 a year I pay for premium membership here.

 

Think about what you're getting here. This site hosts over two million active caches, and this site sees traffic from tens of thousands of users a day. They came up with standards and rules -- sorry, guidelines -- for the game. They provide template design so you don't have cache pages playing annoying music or looking like someone drew 'em in crayon. They develop new features to enhance the game. They have employees and volunteers providing quality control. They may not generate the basic content for a geocache, but they give you all the infrastructure you need to tell the world about it. All that costs money, yet that basic infrastructure -- the ability to publish caches for all the world to find and to search for caches hidden by others -- you get for free. It's only the advanced features that cost money.

 

Complaining about that is kind of like complaining about belonging to a tennis club that charges you to enter tournaments but lets you play regular games for free. Why should you pay them to play tennis tournaments? You and your opponent are providing all the content. You brought your own rackets and tennis balls, and you're the one playing the matches. All they're doing is giving you courts, lighting, locker rooms, restrooms, etc. No one in their right mind would complain about getting all that for free.

 

Put another way, I pay more to enter a 10 kilometer road race that I run every July 4th than I do for this website. That race takes me less than an hour. After the Peachtree is over, I have a T-shirt and memories. I get to use this site for $30 a year, day in, day out. Seems like a good deal to me.

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The 11:30pm, 12:00am trick

 

This one is simple: find a geocache at 11:30pm, wait a half hour, then find another geocache. Boom. That’s two days down in less than an hour. Warning: Before you use this method, double check the recent activity to make sure your 11:30 geocache is there. If it’s missing or you can’t find it, you could accidentally end your streak.[/i]

 

There are not many geocaches that can be found at night legally. Even the ones in the Taco Bell parking lot most likely have no permission.

 

I'm wondering why there are no souvenirs for countries like Italy, while there are ones for every day in August?

How about this challenge: They could create one new souvenir every day for each country that doesn't have one.

 

Funny how they use this kind of example when anyone with half a brain can see that if the 11:30 geocache isn't there you just find the other one, claim it for the previous day (ignoring the issues some people would have with logging on a totally different day it's hard to see how logging a cache found at 12:02 on Tuesday morning as a Monday find is cheating except to the most obsessive purists) and then you've got all day Tuesday to find another one.

 

If people have figured that out it's a small step to realise that offering souvenirs for every day encourages people to cheat if they care about the souvenirs. It doesn't encourage geocaching, it just encourages people to distort either the caching they already do or the caching they log. Hence we've seen numerous discussions about whether some people will avoid caching at all during August because they don't want the souvenirs, others reducing their caching during July to make sure they've got 31 caches to find during August, talk of people somehow being attracted to caching because of the souvenirs (as if a website souvenir makes a soggy film pot or the skirtlifter cache you posted suddenly become an interesting and enjoyable hunt) and the like.

 

Much as geodarts said I find what enjoyment I get from geocaching these days seems to be largely despite Groundspeak's direction rather than because of it. I get the impression these days that Groundspeak would rather there be 50 soggy film pots left behind signs and never maintained than 5 decent sized caches hidden in interesting areas that people might want to actually go and visit, that were well maintained.

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Well with an employee base of 70 people, their payroll is estimated to be around $2 million per year. That averages to each cache roughly generating $1 per year in revenue. There is coin fees, advertising, and PMs, but it just doesn't seem enough to cover everything. A boost in hides indicates overall more activity and more cache flow... :D

 

I think your numbers are slightly off. There is no way you can get talented programming skills in the Seattle area for $30K per year.

 

It is the minimum average when all levels of employment are taken into account. $3 million perhaps?

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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The cost of the official Geocaching.com smartphone apps is WAY above the average, no doubt about that.

From what I've heard (haven't actually checked, since I don't have a smartphone), third-party geocaching apps cost about the same. Except for the one freebie I've heard of, which isn't approved by GS.

At least for Android, there are several approved apps that are half the cost of the official app and have much better feature sets.

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For the record.

 

I am getting my money's worth.

 

I have discovered people and places I would never have found otherwise. I will complain and moan about a lot of aspects of the game, but in the grand scheme of things I am coming out ahead, way ahead. When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing and paying. Don't see it happening though.

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The cost of the official Geocaching.com smartphone apps is WAY above the average, no doubt about that.

From what I've heard (haven't actually checked, since I don't have a smartphone), third-party geocaching apps cost about the same. Except for the one freebie I've heard of, which isn't approved by GS.

At least for Android, there are several approved apps that are half the cost of the official app and have much better feature sets.

I stand corrected. I was thinking NeonGeo and others were also $10 apps. Did some research now and see I was wrong.

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I'm a tiny bit annoyed that people in the UK now pay more. April 1st 2012 I bought premium for $30 which was £19.57, now $30 would be around £20 - £20.17 the day before I went premium again (I know because I bought GSAK that day!).

 

Yet our UK is £24.99 a year - equivalent to $38.20 currently, give or take a few cents. 27% more for being in a different country, it just seems unfair. Sadly, also not uncommon mind.

 

Anyway, if it was the same price I'd have no complaints. I know a lot of people who'll spent twice that, easily in a pub/club in a few hours one evening (a pint is around £3 around here, more in some clubs, easily £5 a drink on some stuff and I'm in a rural area). Paying it so I can load any cache on the site, without exception, into PQs or GSAK, have notifications, for the cost of 2 day entries into a zoo give or take, is actually quite reasonable.

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I look at it as a donation. And I have no problem if Groundspeak is making good money, I have no problem if Jeremy is a millionaire off of this. Remember Jeremy Irish put the risk and time into writing software, installing servers, paying for loads of bandwidth etc.... However, if this was really about the money, I'm sure Jeremy could do an public IPO and rake in several 100 million or sell the company to Garmin or rake in tens of millions in series rounds for investment money. The fact that he doesn't should tell you something, that's it is not about the money with Jeremy or Groundspeak. The basic game is still free, premiums rates have never gone up, and so many more features have been added to the game.

 

And finally, not everything has worked for Groundspeak... Wherigo and Waymarking are two examples of failures.

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I have a few concerns that are preventing me from becoming a financial member and upgrading membership.

 

Web site is buggy and often "freezes" When recently trying to log a cache, it took more than a dozen attempts before our first cache was successfully logged for review. Too often we get a server error message, or a timeout message from geocaching website. When tying to post logs from website often the previous messages make it difficult to post logs. This was particularly frustrating when trying to communicate with moderators when attempting ot register our first cache. Too often data already typed is lost. This is regardless of via phone, or at home using broadband connection.

 

iphone app is buggy. It frequently takes several attempts to log finds and\or they work only to have the log attempt listed as unsuccessful on my phone and be made undeletable without restarting phone. Several logging attempts have to be made on either phone or at home. I have no such problems using any other app on the iphone and I have about 50 apps loaded. Yes I know how to maintain phone and close apps etc. Geocache free app is only app I have trouble with.

 

My wife cannot download a free app on her android phone.. it is only a $12+ app. She is relucatnt to spend such money when I have so much trouble using the free iphone app. Nothing suggest paying the $12 app will give better access/ease of use.

 

Cache owners logging/approval system is intimidating. Because we had so much trouble listing the cache in the first place, some data wwas lost simply scrolling backwards to review before listing. This caused a few errors. I felt in some cases date was acually lost between editing and saving attempts and the listing was overwrittien. Where it became intimidating is the reviewer seemed to look at one issue at a time. This made for several re-submissions and unnecessary email traffic. Data seemed to go missing between edits. I felt like a school boy once again. Final straw came when it was clear another reviewer from original blocked the listing without reading all the submission details. The cache is 2 hours drive from home, but near our holiday house so maintenance was not a problem. This reviewer did not read this comment and placed a block and followed with a multi page email directly quoting policy on travelling and hiding caches policy as if it was a dressing down lecture. This was definately taken as an unecessary belittling of ourselves as members. Attempts to communicate were complicated by the problems logging comments that would have made for much more timely correspondence. Final confusion came when we received notification of acceptance. The approval for listing was posted AFTER the first find was logged.

 

Invitation to upgrade is confusing, bordering on deceptional. Is is simpy upgrading the app from free to the paid app on itunes? if so why is there talk about a subscritopn. More clarity is required as to deiiference between free/paid app and the subscription. The only description of a premium membership does not sound good value for money in the light of current difficulties experienced.

 

Sure one can say subscritions go to maintaining the system, but as it is presented and operates for us, the service provided is not encouraging anything more than an occasional hobby/interest.

Edited by Flyfish44
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I happen to be in the "wont-pay-for-premium" camp. I don't need the so-called bonus extras you get for the pricier UK membership. I like to play the game for the sake of playing the game.

 

If premium members want to have their own game within a game then it's no skin off of my nose! I spent just as much time as anyone else developing and hiding my caches and I get a buzz when ANY grade member finds them.

What I HATE is when the "holier-than-thou" brigade start whinging and whining about basic members (even calling them Freeloaders in one case) who have legitimate concerns and complaints about a hobby they love. I wonder how many caches placed by basic members they have found and logged and then displayed proudly on their stat pages showing just how wonderful they are?

 

I really like the Groundspeak website and facility it offers and I actually get by just fine without the premium features. If I don't see or find premium only caches then so what? There are PLENTY of non-premium only caches out there to find. In my own humble opinion it's the cache owner that loses out...less finds and appreciation of their efforts.

 

I know there will be members who flame me and try to run my comments down but, as I call them, the "holier-than-thou" brigade demand their pound of flesh, I also respect the right of reply as long as it's constructive and pertinant, but the "go somewhere else" gang can just go somewhere else themselves!! :P

 

Oh, just for the info....I use the official app, bought and paid for. I ALSO use other apps that give me all the functionality I need for free too!!

 

I love geocaching, I've found caches all around the world. Only one or two of them were premiums at the time!!

I will be a cacher 'til my signal drops off forever!!

 

Phil

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Oh, just for the info....I use the official app, bought and paid for. I ALSO use other apps that give me all the functionality I need for free too!!

That's a pretty good deal for people who are already paying for a data connection. You get a live list of caches wherever you are (if you get a signal) with the App, and of course have access to the entire site using the browser. That's probably fine for most cachers. I envy the ability to grab live data. That would be sweet.

 

I don't have a data subscription (can't justify the expense), and many places I visit don't have a signal, so Premium + a hiking GPSr works for me. But I don't insist that everybody else do that.

Edited by kunarion
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I happen to be in the "wont-pay-for-premium" camp.

 

Totally agree Phil. As with my comment previously in this thread, I am not participating enough to justify the subscription $ but dont necessarily see it as totally a grab for $ by Groundspeak. Despite frustrations with the iphone app and website the whole family is enjoying the occasional excursion. We have bought geocoins and started a family race, bought some for relatives to teach them too and even bought official cache containers to put in a few more of our own. My 6yo daughter loves the concept and what a great educational tool for a day or so every 4-8 weeks we seem to adopt as the extent of our caching. It fits in with other hobies such as walking and riding.

 

I do have trouble justifying the subscription but am enjoying what we do and so far interactions with other ccachers on the whole is rewarding enough to persist. If this was an every weekend job, perhaps we might consider differently.

 

Am curious, can anyone really describe any benefits of paid app over the freebie? Am curious to have app on wife's Android for another reference deevice out in the field, but then we are up for 2 paid apps on ios6 and android systems...... Guess you can see dilemma in justifying purchase as we do not understand any benefit as documentation on itunes etc fails to explain difference. However the free app seems buggy, taking several attempts to post logs and only shows a few caches nearby in a close radius..... not in a location one is planning to visit, or more than 2 or three kilometres at a particular time. We go to the website at home for this, but would like to be able plan caches to find "out of town" and tranfer this to the phone. Not a full road trip, but say 3 r 4 caches in an area we plan to visit one weekend. Freebie app does not allow this.

 

The freebie app we bought appears to be a genuine Grondspeak app. I grabbed it a couple of years ago and have only started using it late last year. It has updated to Groundspeak Geocaching iPhone App v6.1.

 

Would value anyones opinion... is the $ for the paid version app worthwhile given we are having problems operating the free app.

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I've never really understood the thought some people have or the idea other caching sites put out there about geocaching.com being for the "rich people" (as someone put it in a local caching forum). Opencaching puts it out there that they are more about the community and don't charge and that sort of thing. I've seen people grumble about how Groundspeak is all about making money. I just don't get the issues they try to make.

 

Anyone can use geocaching.com for free and participate extensively. Yes, there are premium memberships available, but they are not necessary to play. Yes, the extremely helpful, easy to use app costs money, but you don't have to use that either to get the full fun effect of caching, use a GPS (go figure). All these extra things are, just that, EXTRAS. Buy and use them or don't.

 

So, if you are one of these people I'm describing, can you explain to me better what your issues are? Just an honest question because I don't understand the problem. Or maybe others can give a guess at what these people are thinking.

I find it amazing that people have issues with other people making money. It does not cost money for a non premium member to use GC.com It is a matter of choice

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