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Cadence

Batteries and HT's

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I am currently using both 2000 and 2200mAh AA batteries with a Maha Charger (AC or LighterDC). I have enough for both my wife's GPSr and my Rino GPSr, replacements for each, and two for the digital camera.

 

I eventually want to get an HT, and want to steer clear of the proprietary-only units.

 

I know that Desert_Warrior (KD9KC) uses an ICOM unit in the field and that it can utilize AA's, is that through a frame or adapter?

 

What has been your experience with HT's and powering them? I know we've got the "What Do You Use" topics, but I'm more concerned about Emergency Preparedness and being able to help out for days on end without AC power.

 

I'm considering a Vx-7R with the optional CMP460A speaker/mic. Please feel free to tell me how you feel about it, experiences, etc.

 

As always, this is the best and most polite forum I've seen yet. Sarcastic at times, but at least not as dysfunctional as most. Thanks for all of your answers past, present and future.

 

Todd Cady

 

Cadence

(OddTodd and CheleBell)

FRS2,12GMRS22(WPXD965)

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quote:
Originally posted by Cadence (OddTodd & CheleBell):

I eventually want to get an HT, and want to steer clear of the proprietary-only units.


 

This is one area where my TH-F6A has been a disappointment. Not only is the AA adapter an optional item, but the unit will only crank out 1/2W with alkaline batteries. icon_frown.gif Supply it with power on it’s external jack and it’ll run 5W out. So you could build an external battery holder for it if that’s what you wanted. (Keep in mind a HT at full power will demand quite a bit of current. Some batteries can’t deliver even if they have a good AH rating.)

 

The unit does come standard with a Li-ion 1.5AH battery pack and you can obtain a 3AH optional unit from a third party.

 

So some follow-up questions you need ask: Does the unit come with a AA pack? (very few units will take AA “natively”.) And how much power will the unit deliver with AA batteries? Will the unit work well (and at full power) when using rechargeable AA cells?

 

Now, a point back to you. Most Ecom (Emergency Communication) types advocate having a AA pack for your unit. This is because rechargeable batteries in a long even will be drained and you won’t have the time and maybe not the consistent location to recharge them. However, once supplies start shipping you’ll have tons of AA one-use alkalines to burn. As such you may be making too big a thing about being able to use your own rechargeable batteries in a unit. Most units come with the first pack, so you won’t have to buy the first one. It’s only when that pack fails or you need another pack that you’ll be concerned about trying to use your existing batteries.

 

While battery is a consideration in selecting a unit, there are other important considerations. One of mine is intermod resistance. A unit that gets intermod will be aggravating to use and may cause you to loose important information.

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I have the VX-7R and the CMP460 mic; they are an excellent combination, and the battery seems to last a reasonable amount of time. Actual times will depend on the amount of idle time, transmitting time, and receiving time. Using the VX-7 Commander software makes the radio even easier to program and use (having programmed one by hand, I prefer the PC programming).

 

As my wife and I each have the VX-7R's, I bought a couple of spare batteries, so that we will probably never run out of power. The DC (cig. lighter) charging cable is another worthwhile investment.

 

Performance of the Yaesu is quite good, even when receiving outside the ham bands. I monitor 46.12 mHz fairly often - it is the Fire/EMS paging frequency in my area - and sensitivity is quite good. Overall selectivity is very good as well.

 

There are some used ones available (eBay, etc), but the later ones reportedly have had some minor changes (i.e., improved transmit audio) applied which may make a new one worth the few extra dollars.

 

73,

 

Jerry W2TXB

 

I Roger your vector, Victor...... Over.

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I have three older HTs, an Icom, an ALinco, and a Radio Shack, that have outlived their original ni-cad packs.

 

I got the alkaline cases for them, and built a DC-DC regulator for the Icom. I use the ICOM, a venerable IC-2A, for packet with just about any DC source above 10 volts that can push 200mA.

 

I usually get the alkaline pack for any HT at the time of purchase. It is amazingly easy to scare up a handful of AA alkalines just about anywhere that they sell anything.

 

This is the only area where my Yaesu VX-5R has disapointed me. It is so small that the alkaline pack only holds two cells, and the output power is limited to 300mW.

 

I have tried rechargable cells, both nicad and Nickel-metal-hydride. I am not at all impressed with nicad performance. NMH are better, but still a bit of a hassle to keep charged and ready.

 

For me, I just pick up a 40-pack of AA alkalines at Sam's club every other month or so.

 

Dave_W6DPS

 

My two cents worth, refunds available on request. (US funds only)

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The problem with HTs is that they each take a unique battery pack. I have eight (several 2M, 222, 2m/440 1.2GHZm, marine VHF) and only two have the same pack. There is only one good battery pack amoung these because after a few years they go bad, and they cost about $50. So I use AA packs. I also rig up an external pack, 9.6V, NMiH, 2.5 AH, that I found new at a swap meet (cost $5 and made for some other device). Just plug in the external pack when I need to transmit or use for long periods.

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Great answers, thanks!

 

GeckoGeek, thanks for the information and yes, I agree that I needed to know more about what I was asking. I understand more about intermod now, thanks for the inspiration to look it up. Where would you go for a review of HT's to determine which ones were most affected by intermod? I've only recently become the recipient of my Elmer's QST's and CQ's. I want to be able to use any AA's, not just my NiMH, thanks for helping me clarify.

 

Overland1, thanks for the review and recommendation for the DC adapter, I'll be getting that accessory too and did plan on buying the HT new. Still have to research a better antenna for it.

 

Dave_W6DPS, thanks for the info, I am guessing due to size restrictions and the speed at which the 7R came out that it probably only has two AA space also. I'll probably need to build an external battery pack for whatever HT I purchase. I know what you mean by keeping the NiMH charged. It can be quite a time consuming process.

 

EScout, thanks. I will buy an extra battery pack or two as well as try to develop an external battery pack for whatever HT I get.

 

Great advice as always, thanks to all who've replied so far!

 

Todd Cady

 

Cadence

(OddTodd and CheleBell)

FRS2,12GMRS22(WPXD965)

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I'll echo the earlier comments about the VX-5/7Rs. The reduced output on AAs make that solution really marginal for the VX-5, and I'm pretty sure the VX-7 is the same.

 

Mike's combination of the ICOM IC-W32A with the HM-75 microphone sounds like a great combination to me. That mic can control the most common functions of the radio remotely, so you can mount the rig wherever you want and not have to worry about detaching it to make some common adjustment. Don't know how it performs from a battery/power basis, though.

 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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quote:
Originally posted by Cadence (OddTodd & CheleBell):

Great answers, thanks!


 

Since it was my system which was referenced, I will add a reply.

 

I use the ICOM IC-W32A. For my needs, the finest handheld available. If you want, you can expand the receiver to cover a lot. Up to 5 watts out. It can be controlled from the microphone. (Big deal for me while hiking.) The AA battery pack (ICOM BP-170) is available. I bought two from Universal Radio.

 

My battery solution was not just battery. (All calculations are the VHF band. UHF was even better!)

 

The stock antenna had at LEAST a -3dB. My stock battery was 9.6 vdc at 650 ma. The 5 watts out was really about 2.5 watts ERP (or less). The battery lasted about 4 hours.

 

The new battery pack (BP-170 AA pack) with 4 Mi-NM 1800 ma batteries is 4.8 vdc. On 4.8 vdc the radio runs 1.5 watts. This is only 33% of the output. So with 33% drain, the battery would last 3 times as long. But it doesn't end here.

 

The old battery was 650 ma. The new battery is 1800 ma. This is 2.76 more capacity. So lets add it up now. By lowering the output, I get 3 times the life. So 4 hours times 3 = 12 hours lf life. Then the 12 hours times 2.76 = 33.12 hours. All this on one battery pack. Of course, your mileage (hours) may vary.

 

The one downside was the antenna. At 1.5 watts output, and the antenna at -3dB, I had about 0.75 watts ERP. Pretty dismal! So I switched to a gain antenna. The new antenna has 2.1 dB gain instead of 3 (or more) dB loss. 1.5 watts times 2.1 dB gain = 2.6 watts ERP. Better then the stock system!

 

The one downside of the antenna is that it is about 20 inches (50 cm) tall. Since I keep the radio clipped to my pack, and control it via the remote mic, this is little bother. If you look closely at my avatar, you can see the antenna. (Or go to my user profile photo for a better view.)

 

So there you have it. Good luck on your choice! hope you found this more imformative than boring!

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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quote:
Originally posted by Cadence (OddTodd & CheleBell):

Where would you go for a review of HT's to determine which ones were most affected by intermod?


 

By in large you have to ask in forums like this one or at eHam.com. Note that intermod issues can change from area to area because different areas have different high-powered signals that create the problem. So it's best to ask local hams about their experience.

 

In general, the more out of band signal a radio can receive, the bigger a problem it will have with intermod. That's one of the things I like about by TH-F6A. The "A" side is a ham band only unit. The "B" side is the DC to daylight everyone likes. So if intermod is a problem I can still switch to the "A" side for ham communications. (Since others are complaining about the same AA problem the TH-F6A has, it makes me feel much better about one of it's two weaknesses icon_biggrin.gif) It sounds like an external battery pack is the way to go for extended use.

 

Desert Warrior makes a good point about antenna gain. I don't put a lot of faith in published antenna gain figures, and usually gain comes at the expense of directionality (something that could be bad in a mountainous area). But I'd still want a power source that will allow me full power out and then add a high-gain antenna to make a "best effort" when in remote areas.

 

You might want to add a high-gain antenna or even a "ribbon J-pole" to your list of accessory for getting out in remote areas.

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Published antenna gain figures are a good point to mention. There's nothing magic about antennas, so if you see two that appear very similar but their gain figures differ significantly, it's probably because one manufacturer (Larsen, for instance) provides the realistic dBd figures (dB gain over a dipole antenna), where other less scrupulous manufacturers use dBi (dB gain over a theoretical isotropic antenna).

 

Since a dipole exhibits about 2.1 dB gain over the non-existant isotropic radiator, Larsen will state that a given antenna has unity gain (no gain), where the other guy will say his antenna has 2.1 dB gain, when in fact they're identical.

 

Don't let them fool you.

 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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quote:
Since a dipole exhibits about 2.1 dB gain over the non-existant isotropic radiator, Larsen will state that a given antenna has unity gain (no gain), where the other guy will say his antenna has 2.1 dB gain, when in fact they're identical.

 

Now here's a man that has read a lot of Kurt and Lil Paddle.

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."

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quote:
Originally posted by Baloo&bd:

Now here's a man that has read a lot of Kurt and Lil Paddle.

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."


 

Actually, I bet he don't even know what you are referring to. However, he has come a long way, and quickly. Heck, Curt Sterba even pre-dates me by a bit, and I have been a ham over 25 years now. I have read his stuff, even have a copy near the bed.

 

El Oso, Curt Sterba invented the STERBA arrey antenna. He also wrote A LOT of practical antenna information in his time. Still good stuff today. Read it if you can find it. Not sure, but I think he is dead now.

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I do tend to suck as much info out of a subject as I can, but with Amateur Radio, I'm gonna hafta be suckin' a loooooong time. icon_smile.gif

 

I'll have to see what I can find on Mr Sterba and see what he can tell me that's not in my Antenna Book.

 

~ Boyd

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quote:
Originally posted by El Oso - N5CTI:

Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I do tend to suck as much info out of a subject as I can, but with Amateur Radio, I'm gonna hafta be suckin' a loooooong time. icon_smile.gif

 

I'll have to see what I can find on Mr Sterba and see what he can tell me that's not in my Antenna Book.

 

~ Boyd


 

Kurt N. Sterba is far from dead and I can only think he pre-dates someone in their teens. He is a regular contributor (I think one of the original members) of the TowerTalk reflector.

 

Of course, as I say this, please realize the Kurt, the Easter Bunny, an informed republican and Santa all have something in common: You hear about them but no one has actually met one. He is a fictious character that was created by someone, somewhere and could very well now be someone else.

 

Get a copy of World Radio, while his articles have been spotty, they are still there from time to time. If you don't subscribe, you should. This little "newspaper type" mag has multiple times the info you will get from an issue of QST, and I am a lifetime subscriber to both.

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."

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I have a couple HT's and they are quite handy indeed. For my Yaesu FT-51R (dual-bander) I have a big 5W tx battery that is almost 10 years old and probably needs to be rebuilt. I also have a 4AA battery pack that lasts much longer (with 1800mah NiMH's) but it only allows tx at 1.5W, which barely hits local repeaters properly. My FT-10R (2m HT) has 2 battery packs, 1 big and 1 small. The big one puts out a good 5 watts and lasts pretty long, however the small one can only tx at 2 or 3 watts. Thats not bad since the small battery is quite slim making the HT nice and small, however it cannot be relied on to hit repeaters when you really need to.

 

In order for me to make a 5W tx external battery pack that can plug directly into the ext. DC socket on the FT-10R, I'd need at least 9V's (the big battery is 9.6V). I'd also have to find a way to have the radio clipped to my bag without having a battery connected to the radio. You see the belt clip is connected to the battery, and I don't want the battery on the radio if I'm using the home-brew battery or else it'll start charging. Anyways, the easiest way would be to get some AA battery holders/cases and somehow get the 6 cells in a series circuit and plug that into my FT-10r. I'm planning on leaving the wire between the radio and the battery pack somewhat long so the bulky 6AA battery pack can stay in my backpack while the radio is strapped to the outside.

 

Also, a power-saving note. I noticed using an earbud instead of the speaker or speaker/mic significantly extends battery life. It's also easier to hear in noisy/crowded conditions plus the privacy factor. And to increase the efficiency of your rubber duck antenna you could make your own counterpoise 'Tiger-tail', but I'll leave that for another thread. Sorry for going off-topic.

 

_____________________________________________________________________

Please visit the Ham Radio Forums at www.ham-radio.ca. Thank you.

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Acuracura:

I have the 10R as well as the 50R. You can use at low power if you use a larger antenna. I have those long thin whips with the SMA connector. (On the 10R get a small barrel connector to use the SMA male antenna.)

With these, 1.5 W will work as well as 5W with the small antennas that come with the rig. I also have large 1/2 wave extendable antennas (Need BNC converter) and roll-up J-pole.

 

On the 10R, just use the AA bat pack with its clip to your belt. When you plug in external power, it will use that. There is no way it can charge the AAs in the bat pack.

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I have the Yaesu FT-530, and I have two of the large batteries, one small battery, and the 6 AA battery pack. It's a dual-bander that will xmit 2w on battery and 5w if you power it from the top. It's rated at 7.5v, but I hear (not tested or looked it up yet) there's a huge tolerance, so building a converter for 12v SHOULD work. If it does, I'm considering getting one of the 12v lead acid cells that fit in a waist band for events and such... easier than keeping up with/changing out batteries after a bit of use when the events last all day.

 

In the mean time, I have a 1000w dc/ac inverter in my van hooked to an isolated 12v 100amp hour battery that I use to rotate my batteries through the charger during such events. It's great if I have direct access to my van, otherwise, I use the batts until they're all dead, then I'm just out of the game...

 

-=Jerry A. Goodson=- W5BFF aka hydrashok407

 

"Real peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice" - http://www.hydrashok.com

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quote:
Originally posted by hydrashok407:

I have the Yaesu FT-530, and I have two of the large batteries, one small battery, and the 6 AA battery pack. It's a dual-bander that will xmit 2w on battery and 5w if you power it from the top. It's rated at 7.5v, but I hear (not tested or looked it up yet) there's a huge tolerance, so building a converter for 12v SHOULD work. If it does, I'm considering getting one of the 12v lead acid cells that fit in a waist band for events and such... easier than keeping up with/changing out batteries after a bit of use when the events last all day.


 

I have used my FT-530 with a 12 votl gel cell in a fanny pack with a power cord I put together for years now without any problem. Other then of course the HT heating up during a long session, which they all od anyway even on batteries.

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."

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quote:
Originally posted by EScout:

Acuracura:

I have the 10R as well as the 50R. You can use at low power if you use a larger antenna. I have those long thin whips with the SMA connector. (On the 10R get a small barrel connector to use the SMA male antenna.)

With these, 1.5 W will work as well as 5W with the small antennas that come with the rig. I also have large 1/2 wave extendable antennas (Need BNC converter) and roll-up J-pole.

 

On the 10R, just use the AA bat pack with its clip to your belt. When you plug in external power, it will use that. There is no way it can charge the AAs in the bat pack.


 

Unfortunately I don't have the AA battery pack for the 10r. If I plug my home-brew battery into the ext. DC socket with the big 5W tx battery, would it start charging the yaesu battery using the energy from the home-brew?

 

I buit my own roll-up J-pole out of twinlead but that antenna doesn't let the HT be as handy as a rubber duck does. I should get one of those long 1/2 wave antennas, but I won't be able to use it with my 51R on UHF.

 

_____________________________________________________________________

Please visit the Ham Radio Forums at www.ham-radio.ca. Thank you.

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WOW! it's amazing what happens when you don't watch the forums - I was reading reviews of HT's at eHam.com for the last few days and come back to a heck of a lot of great info!

 

Thank you all for your input regarding everything - I've learned something again, dangit! Some day my head will overflow - won't be pretty.

 

From what I understand, no one seems to be happy with whatever stock battery comes with their HT, so buy a 3rd party double-life battery, and have an alkaline pack for the HT ready to go. Is it safe to use NiMH in the Alkaline adapter/frames? I recognize that the 'battery-meter' may not accurately show battery life of the NiMH.

 

I am willing to use Alkalines, and really have no problem with them except that they are not reusable. I understand that during an emergency, alkalines will be my buddy. I'm just trying to find a rechargeable solution for a HT that works with all of my other toys.

 

A couple of questions:

 

1. Plans for making a J-Pole, I've seen the link somewhere before, could someone help by maybe Markwelling me?

 

2. Does anyone have any reservations or dislike of Kenwood HT's? Experience with and appreciation for? Specifically the TH-F6A.

 

I've read almost all of the reviews of the various dual and tri-band HT's, but I'm interested in your views.

 

Thanks!

Todd Cady

 

Cadence

(OddTodd and CheleBell)

FRS2,12GMRS22(WPXD965)

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quote:
Originally posted by Cadence (OddTodd & CheleBell):

1. Plans for making a J-Pole, I've seen the link somewhere before, could someone help by maybe Markwelling me?


 

For the J-Pole, Try WB3GCK or XE1BEF

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."

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Thanks Baloo&bd! that was really fast. I like the quality of the diagram on WB3GCK's page.

 

T.

 

Cadence

(OddTodd and CheleBell)

FRS2,12GMRS22(WPXD965)

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quote:
Originally posted by Cadence (OddTodd & CheleBell):

 

2. Does anyone have any reservations or dislike of Kenwood HT's? Experience with and appreciation for? Specifically the TH-F6A.

 

I've read almost all of the reviews of the various dual and tri-band HT's, but I'm interested in your views.

 

Cadence

(OddTodd and CheleBell)

FRS2,12GMRS22(WPXD965)


 

For my job, I had to order 5 of the Kenwood TH671A’s. The radio is also used for remote control operation of high-end Irrigation controllers. (Long story, see http://www.creekbed.com/sdsugrounds/calsense.htm ) At the time I wasn’t even aware that they were actually dual band HAM radio H.T’s.

 

The radios have worked fine so far (going on two months) and the only complaint I have is that they don’t provide a battery meter. That is, they don’t provide a read out to let you know when the battery is going low. You have to be prepared with a charged spare when the need arises.

 

Other than that, it seems to be a tough radio. I’ve bounced it off the cement a couple of times. I was satisfied enough that I bought one for my personal use and I’ve also sprung for the various accessories that make it more useful. Got the battery case (BT-11) for using alkalines and the PC cable for programming.

 

I also purchased a quick charge, conditioning battery charger. Much better than using the provided AC adapter. I use a magnetic mount antenna while driving.

 

I’ve only had my Tech license for 3 weeks so obviously; I have a lot to learn. Can’t really compare it to other models; never used anything else. My neighbor uses TH-F6A and is very satisfied. I probably would have gone with that if I didn't have so many of the TH-G71's at work to experiment with.

 

Rob

KG6SIB

 

CreekBed.com

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quote:
Originally posted by Rob H.:

For my job, I had to order 5 of the Kenwood TH671A’s. The radio is also used for remote control operation of high-end Irrigation controllers. (Long story, see http://www.creekbed.com/sdsugrounds/calsense.htm ) At the time I wasn’t even aware that they were actually dual band HAM radio H.T’s.


Hmmmm. Unless modified, they won't transmit outside of the ham bands, and this doesn't sound like a legitimate use of the ham bands. Sure, nothing wrong with receiving, but it seems odd that they would select a dual band HT if it was only for receive.

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quote:
Originally posted by Cadence (OddTodd & CheleBell):

2. Does anyone have any reservations or dislike of Kenwood HT's? Experience with and appreciation for? Specifically the TH-F6A.


Have it, love it. But I don't think it will work with NiHh batteries in the alkaline case.

 

The unit does have a battery meter (if you want to call the 3-segiment display that) but it's not normally on and has to be called up with a two button sequence when you want to look at it.

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Yep, it was modified and they charged a hefty price for doing it. Now that I’ve looked around I realize I could have done the modification myself and saved the state considerably. The frequency they use for remote control is 160.150.

 

rob

 

quote:
Originally posted by GeckoGeek:

quote:
Originally posted by Rob H.:

http://www.creekbed.com/sdsugrounds/calsense.htm ) At the time I wasn’t even aware that they were actually dual band HAM radio H.T’s.


Hmmmm. Unless modified, they won't transmit outside of the ham bands, and this doesn't sound like a legitimate use of the ham bands. Sure, nothing wrong with receiving, but it seems odd that they would select a dual band HT if it was only for receive.


 

CreekBed.com

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Acuraura said:Unfortunately I don't have the AA battery pack for the 10r. If I plug my home-brew battery into the ext. DC socket with the big 5W tx battery, would it start charging the yaesu battery using the energy from the home-brew?

 

Yes, the external battery will charge the attached battery if the external is at a higher voltage. Use a 12V gel cell if you want this to happen. The AA pack is handy because it doesn't accept a charge, and will only use the external power.

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quote:
Originally posted by EScout:

Yes, the external battery will charge the attached battery if the external is at a higher voltage. Use a 12V gel cell if you want this to happen. The AA pack is handy because it doesn't accept a charge, and will only use the external power.


 

Hmmmm. Do you see anything wrong with using the 10R without a battery attached (besides the home-brew)? I can only think of it getting dirty and more vulnerable to damage, other than that I don't see why I can't just plug in my home-brew battery and not put on any of the Yaesu battery packs. I just got a new backpack today that has pockets so I don't need the belt clip on the battery anymore. I'm mostly scared of somehow damaging the internal electronics of the radio by plugging in my own 9V battery into the ext. DC socket and operating without having a real yaesu battery attached.

 

_____________________________________________________________________

Please visit the Ham Radio Forums at www.ham-radio.ca. Thank you.

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quote:
Originally posted by Rob H.:

The frequency they use for remote control is 160.150.


 

So, next time I'm in the area I can have fun with the picnic folks? icon_biggrin.gif Thanks, that makes be feel better about things. I should point out that the units aren't type accepted to be used that way, so they may not be legal, but that's not my problem.

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quote:
Originally posted by GeckoGeek:

I should point out that the units aren't type accepted to be used that way, so they may not be legal, but that's not my problem.


 

Type acceptance is a concern and restriction imposed uponf the manufactuer, not the end user. If something has been modifed to work out of band and is being used within FCC regulations, there is no concern to the user.

 

Otherwise MARS modified radios, modified Motorolas, many repeaters, most hombrew equipment, modified computers, remote control planes/cars, etc. would not be legal.

 

Modify away, that's why most used to become licensed in the first place.

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."

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quote:
Originally posted by Baloo&bd:

Type acceptance is a concern and restriction imposed uponf the manufactuer, not the end user. If something has been modifed to work out of band and is being used within FCC regulations, there is no concern to the user.


I beg to differ. MARS is an exception because it's a military band and largly exempt from FCC overview. To modify a ham HT and use it on the police band or goverment band is not legal. Now, it's not likely to be enforced until someone complains, but that's not the same thing as "legal".

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Precisely. MARS/CAP operations are controlled by NTIA, not the FCC, and anyway, my understanding is that their requirements for stability and accuracy of transmitting equipment effectively precludes the use of Amateur equipment these days.

 

But, where the FCC is in charge, the equipment requires certification (the new term for type acceptance). You can't legally transmit on FRS/GMRS/MURS/CB/Public Safety/Land Mobile, etc., etc., frequencies with non-certificated (read: Amateur) equipment.

 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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You guys are missing the point. Type Acceptance is not a concern of the end user. It is applicable only to manufactures of equipment.

 

If I build a Tuna Tin radio, I do not have to get "type acceptance".

 

Also, you missed entirely my point of using it within regulations. I CAN modify my HT to listen in the police, aero, etc. Transmitting is these bands is illegal.

 

The response was to a modified radio being within "type acceptance" which, again, is not applicable to a user. If the modification is used improperly, it is a violation of something other then "type acceptance". In the instance to which the original comment was made, the radio were modified and used in a legal application.

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."

 

[This message was edited by Baloo&bd on September 15, 2003 at 09:26 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Baloo&bd:

If I build a Tuna Tin radio, I do not have to get "type acceptance".


If you use it in the ham bands then you are correct. Hams are treated differently then other radio services. We are allowed to build our own equipment. We have both station and construction permits.

 

quote:
Also, you missed entirely my point of using it within regulations. I CAN modify my HT to listen in the police, aero, etc. Transmitting is these bands is illegal.
Type acceptance is only an issue if it transmits. So in this example, I would agree with you. But back in the days when the police were on the 150MHz band, some officers would buy ham rigs and modify them and use them at work. This is not legal.

 

quote:
The response was to a modified radio being within "type acceptance" which, again, is not applicable to a user.
Use of a non-type accepted radio to transmit in most radio services (but not ham) is illegal. Users who transmit are required to use type-accepted rigs. They do NOT have a construction permit. However, unless there's something that causes it to come to the attention of the FCC it isn't likely to trigger any enforcement action.

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Before we get accused of beating a dead horse (too late) let me sum it up in simple terms. (no, that is not intended to be condescending)

 

A end user or consumer can/has/will not ever be cited/arrested/convicted/brought to trial for a "type acceptance" violation regardless of if it transmits or not. This is strictly a guideline/rule/regulation that applies to manufactuers of electronic equipment and not only applies to equipment intended for transmission, but also equipment capable of pratically any type of spurious transmisions (i.e. practically all electronics).

 

If a radio is modified to work out of band or out of spec in violation with FCC/Gov/Local ordinances by an individual, that is a violation that is, however, unrelated to "type acceptance". Ownership of said equipment is debatable as a violation, usage definately is.

 

Now, can we all just get on an airline and play with our GPSr's?

 

Baloo - N9SSG

"HAM AND EGGS -- A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig."

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quote:
Originally posted by Baloo&bd:

If a radio is modified to work out of band or out of spec in violation with FCC/Gov/Local ordinances by an individual, that is a violation that is, however, unrelated to "type acceptance". Ownership of said equipment is debatable as a violation, usage definately is.


Are we agreeing that using a radio out of it's originally designed band is a violation?

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I agree that the horse is well dead, Dave, but I disagree with what the FCC requires (enforcement is a different issue). CFR 47 clearly requires that transmitters "used" or "operated" under the various parts must be certificated.

 

By the way, the FCC now uses the term "certification" instead of "type acceptance." I just wanted to point that out because the below quotes from CFR 47 use the current term.

quote:

CFR 47, Part 22

 

Sec. 22.377 Certification of transmitters.

 

Except as provided in paragraph (:cool: of this section, transmitters used in the Public Mobile Services, including those used with signal boosters, in-building radiation systems and cellular repeaters, must be certificated for use in the radio services regulated under this part.

 

 

CFR 47, Part 80

 

Sec. 80.203 Authorization of transmitters for licensing.

 

(a) Each transmitter authorized in a station in the maritime services after September 30, 1986, except as indicated in paragraphs (g), (h) and (i) of this section, must be certificated by the Commission for part 80 operations.

 

 

CFR 47, Part 87

 

Sec. 87.145 Acceptability of transmitters for licensing.

 

(a) Each transmitter must be certificated for use in these services, except as listed in paragraph © of this section.

 

 

CFR 47, Part 90

 

Sec. 90.203 Certification required.

 

(a) Except as specified in paragraphs (;) and (l) of this section, each transmitter utilized for operation under this part and each transmitter marketed as set forth in Sec. 2.803 of this chapter must be of a type which has been certificated for use under this part.

 

 

CFR 47, Part 95

 

Sec. 95.129 Station equipment.

 

Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS.

 

Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.

 

(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label placed on it by the manufacturer.)

(:P You must not make, or have made, any internal modification to an FRS unit. Any internal modification cancels the FCC certification and voids your authority to operate the unit in the FRS.

© You may not attach any antenna, power amplifier, or other apparatus to an FRS unit that has not been FCC certified as part of that FRS unit. There are no exceptions to this rule and attaching any such apparatus to a FRS unit cancels the FCC certification and voids everyone's authority to operate the unit in the FRS.


 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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