Log replacement

[+timk54]

My wife and I have found and repaired many caches. I always carry a backpack with replacement containers of various sizes. No,I don't carry ammo cans. My question is sometimes we find nano's with full logs. Should we throw out the old one when we put the new one in? Sometimes the log is wet and we dry everything out and replace it. Is that ok?

Timk54 & Anjie

[+Straight-Cache-Homey]

The gf and I replace logs all the time. If it's small and seems unsalvageable we just throw it away. We did that to about 5 mushy logs this past weekend. If they're in good shape, we'll find a spot to squeeze our names in just in case the CO wants to keep the log.

[+GeoTrekker26]

I keep the old long and write the CO to ask if they would like me to mail them the old one. I've always been told, no, toss it. I've also always been thanked by the CO for asking.

[+martin&lindabryn]

I will replace wet or full logs and and then leave a note on the cache page for the cache owner.

asking that they contact me if they want the log sent back to them.

so far no one has asked for there log book back

[+frinklabs]

Full logs for my own caches get scanned and added to the gallery.

 

For others' caches, I like to try to reclaim wet oogy gross logs, then scan them and post the image on the cache page, like this one (dead sea scroll-style):

 

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Just "throwing them away" really isn't a good idea.

Some cache owners keep the logs, no matter what shape they are in.

 

At least they should be notified and asked. Getting a response from them is another matter.........

[+L0ne.R]

Best to post a "the log is almost full" message when there's not much room left in the log. This gives a cache owner time to replace it. If there are already a couple NMs posted, going back about a month or more, and no response from the CO, it may be time to post a Needs Archive and let a reviewer handle it.

[+L0ne.R]

Just "throwing them away" really isn't a good idea.

Some cache owners keep the logs, no matter what shape they are in.

 

At least they should be notified and asked. Getting a response from them is another matter.........

 

Yes, I keep all of my logbooks. I wouldn't want someone taking a full one. I'd want to be notified in the online logs, preferably before the logbook is full. If someone did take the logbook I would want them to put it back so I can retrieve it. If they couldn't put it back I'd like an electronic copy. I wouldn't give anyone I didn't know, my home address in order to mail it or deliver it to me.

Edited January 16, 2013 by L0ne R

[+L0ne.R]

Also, be careful about replacing containers you can't find. Those are often referred to as "throw downs" and are generally frowned upon in the caching community.

[+T.D.M.22]

I keep my own logs. Any I replace from someone elses cache will get a note on the cache page saying

 

Log was wet/full/whatever and I replaced it with a new one. If you want the old one send me a message. Then the old logs stays in my caching box until I clean it out a month or so later.

[+timk54]

Just "throwing them away" really isn't a good idea.

Some cache owners keep the logs, no matter what shape they are in.

 

At least they should be notified and asked. Getting a response from them is another matter.........

 

Yes, I keep all of my logbooks. I wouldn't want someone taking a full one. I'd want to be notified in the online logs, preferably before the logbook is full. If someone did take the logbook I would want them to put it back so I can retrieve it. If they couldn't put it back I'd like an electronic copy. I wouldn't give anyone I didn't know, my home address in order to mail it or deliver it to me.

I like that Idea best. I will take the logs home if they are at all salvageable, scan them and send them to the log owner. If they are soaking wet and mush then there is no point. thanks for the good input folks.

[+JKMonkey]

I'd personally contact the CO and tell them that the log is full. I can't imagine throwing out a log that so many people worked so hard to sign, so personally I'd just leave the new log with the old one.

[+timk54]

I'd personally contact the CO and tell them that the log is full. I can't imagine throwing out a log that so many people worked so hard to sign, so personally I'd just leave the new log with the old one.

True if there is room for the new and the old logs in the container but in the case of a nano and other micro hides it isn't always possible.

[+SoonerCardsFan]

I keep the old log and write the CO to ask if they would like me to mail them the old one. I've always been told, no, toss it. I've also always been thanked by the CO for asking.

This is what I've found also. I've replaced quite a few logs in the past year. A few COs didn't respond. None that have responded wanted the log. Almost all thanked me for saving them the trip to the cache.

[+Straight-Cache-Homey]

To clarify: If there is anything salvageable about the log I will leave it in the cache, if it is full or damp and will alert the CO. We only throw away logs if it is to the point of mush, which seems to have happened lately.

[+briansnat]

I've added logs when the current log was full, or wet, but I would never remove a log without prior permission of the cache owner

[Zerpersande]

Sometimes the log is wet and we dry everything out and replace it. Is that ok?

Timk54 & Anjie

I replace logs only when I can't write on them. Or they fall apart trying to unroll/unfold them. This is because some COs can be really anal. If there is room in the container, I'll put in a new small log sheet in a small plastic bag. Nano/micro where this isn't possible the old log goes into a plastic baggie and somewhere nearby, often using electrical tape to attach it to something. If the CO wants it, it will at least stay there for a reasonable amount of time.

[Zerpersande]

Full logs for my own caches get scanned and added to the gallery.

 

For others' caches, I like to try to reclaim wet oogy gross logs, then scan them and post the image on the cache page, like this one (dead sea scroll-style):

 

Nice idea! Very considerate of you. Not something I would bother doing for my caches but it really is a nice touch, especially if the cache in question is very popular.

[+simpjkee]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

[Zerpersande]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list.

[+simpjkee]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list.

Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery', how about 'taken hostage':

"I took your property without your permission. If you want it back you must send me your address."

"Hey thanks bro, but how about you just not take my property in the first place."

 

I hate to 'destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache'. Ideally, the CO would have been notified ahead of time that the log was running out of space and they would have replaced it by the time the destruction took place. Unfortunately that is rarely the case, hence the need for destruction and a NM log reporting the destruction because I'm an honest guy like that.

[+-CJ-]

I took your property without your permission.

 

What if I'm a newbie who saw a problem and wished to help the CO and the following visitors? Would you blame me as thief or hostage taker in public afterwards?

[Zerpersande]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list.

Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery', how about 'taken hostage':

"I took your property without your permission. If you want it back you must send me your address."

"Hey thanks bro, but how about you just not take my property in the first place."

 

I hate to 'destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache'. Ideally, the CO would have been notified ahead of time that the log was running out of space and they would have replaced it by the time the destruction took place. Unfortunately that is rarely the case, hence the need for destruction and a NM log reporting the destruction because I'm an honest guy like that.

[Zerpersande]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list.

Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery', how about 'taken hostage':

Ideally, the CO would have been notified ahead of time that the log was running out of space and they would have replaced it by the time the destruction took place. Unfortunately that is rarely the case, hence the need for destruction and a NM log reporting the destruction because I'm an honest guy like that.

Yeah, if the CO had been responsible in the first place none of this would have happened. If a Geocacherbruns across my GPSr at a cache site I would much rather they pick it up and contact me.. Bit different but you get the idea. The log isn't being taken hostage, just saved from destruction. And my way, the owner can just pick up the log the next time they are around. I even used a nano tube to put an old log in once and a took a pic of where i left it. Is that theft? I would hesitate to use such a word as theft, with its negative conotations, when the police would certainly never dream of making or taking the case.

 

I stand with those that replace and inform. Rather than ask what each other would do in this case, whatwould others prefer to have done? I need an old, wet, disintergrting log sheet like a fish needs a bicycle.

[Zerpersande]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list.

Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery',

the need for destruction

Final thought. I'm discussing this b/c I don't think it is theft or kidnapping and the terms are too strong. But...

Willful destruction is just as much a crime as theft

And

Placing geocaches is akin to deliberate littering.

[+OZ2CPU]

PLEASE HELP !!

how to define wanted or needed help can be a little bit different but

replacing a full log with a new is fine,

remove wet materials from a cache is ALWAYS fine,

try to repair broken containers with tape, good idea,

always take old, full, wet logs home, dry and ask CO what to do next,

always inform about your performed service in the online log,

always write the GC number or cache name in the new log,

so people are sure they found the right thing.

 

NEWER put out a new container and new log, if nothing at all was found !!!

to be able to do this, you need PRIOR service and replacement permission from the CO.

 

if you find a broken container, with wet log, and you are sure this is the correct geocache

the emergency log and be placed in a free 35mm film canister, inside the broken original container,

this way the log is dry for a few weeks or even a few month

until propper service can be performed by the CO.

and you did not change the D/T of the cache.

 

as long as the help and service you do, is free, taks short time to do,

and feels like right to do.. DO IT..

 

Thanks for your help and support.

Edited February 13, 2013 by OZ2CPU

[+simpjkee]

I took your property without your permission.

 

What if I'm a newbie who saw a problem and wished to help the CO and the following visitors? Would you blame me as thief or hostage taker in public afterwards?

Whoa that quote is a little out of context, but anyway...

 

If you're a newbie who saw a problem and wished to help the CO and the following visitors you should use the logs appropriately. In this case, the appropriate thing to do would be to log a NM. GS has provided us with excellent logging options. They are very helpful whether you're a newbie or a veteran cacher. I would especially want a newbie to get in the habit of using the logs appropriately to prevent any bad habits from developing. You taking my logbook without my permission is not 'helping' me. You notifying me via a NM log that my logbook is full so that I can go replace it, is helping me and future visitors.

 

Let me make sure I understand your question. If you were a newbie and you got to my cache (beside the point, but I would never place a nano ) and the log was full and you decided to take my log and put in a new log, would I then call you a thief or hostage taker in public? That is your question? To answer...Of course I wouldn't. I'm not a heartless person. I don't think public shame is the answer here. I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

[+simpjkee]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list.

Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery', how about 'taken hostage':

Ideally, the CO would have been notified ahead of time that the log was running out of space and they would have replaced it by the time the destruction took place. Unfortunately that is rarely the case, hence the need for destruction and a NM log reporting the destruction because I'm an honest guy like that.

Yeah, if the CO had been responsible in the first place none of this would have happened. If a Geocacherbruns across my GPSr at a cache site I would much rather they pick it up and contact me.. Bit different but you get the idea. The log isn't being taken hostage, just saved from destruction. And my way, the owner can just pick up the log the next time they are around. I even used a nano tube to put an old log in once and a took a pic of where i left it. Is that theft? I would hesitate to use such a word as theft, with its negative conotations, when the police would certainly never dream of making or taking the case.

 

I stand with those that replace and inform. Rather than ask what each other would do in this case, whatwould others prefer to have done? I need an old, wet, disintergrting log sheet like a fish needs a bicycle.

GPSr analogy is different. I don't 'get the idea' other than that we seem to have two different opinions on whether a cacher should be maintaining a cache that is not theirs.

 

A word is a word. It's 'connotations' are just peoples perceptions of the word. Theft happens all the time with and without police involvement. Either way, a certain cache maggot from a few years ago came to mind when I read your post.

 

I totally agree with you on the old, wet, disintegrating log sheet. If, God forbid, you come to one of my caches in that condition I hope you would log the NM so I could go take care of it ASAP.

[+simpjkee]

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM.

 

If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list.

Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery',

the need for destruction

Final thought. I'm discussing this b/c I don't think it is theft or kidnapping and the terms are too strong. But...

Willful destruction is just as much a crime as theft

And

Placing geocaches is akin to deliberate littering.

I gotta have my smiley, bro!

 

If it's between writing over someone elses name or stealing their logbook... I think writing over someone elses name is the lesser of two evils.

 

....and placing a geocache is not even close to littering... at least not when I place a geocache.

[+-CJ-]

I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

 

Despite a newbies' intentions, you call it an act of theft. This opinion was already made public but even if it wasn't (and wasn't related to any specific situation) it's not just about publicity. It's about personal understanding how geocaching is played in practice. COs are different. Most are happy when I help them to do little maintenance for their geocaches. Some don't care. Some say that it's not a good practice and it's better to post a NM message. Your position is the most radical I've heard. I usually don't know COs of caches that I'm going to visit and I definitely don't wan't anyone to think of me as a thieve. At the same time I see no sense in travelling to some remote location, finding a cache, discovering a wet/unusable logbook and leaving the place being not able to sign the logbook and log the cache as found. In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers.

Edited February 13, 2013 by -CJ-

[Zerpersande]

I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers.

This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place that as long as the CO gets on the ball, the old log is there. I went by a cache that I logged maybe 8 months ago and replaced the log. Left the old log in a plastic nano tube taped to the back of a sign. It is STILL there. IF the CO wants it. Myself, I can't begin to imagine why anyone would want a wet, shredded, ink stained piece of toilet tissue with a list of dates and names on it.

 

I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

Some people need to watch Jack Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men about questioning the manner in which protection is provided. Some COs are the type to bring a lawsuit against you for injuries they suffer when you save their lives by pulling them from a burning car. Jeesh.

[+-CJ-]

This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place

 

I agree. There are two different situations however: when a new logsheet cannot be added (mostly nanos) and when (as you mentioned) the logbook is totally wet and even can make some harm to other contents of the container.

 

I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

So I did in some cases. Last time a microcache was obviously muggled and (failing to contact the CO at once) I placed a small container in different location not far away and sent coordinates/description to the CO.

 

From my point of view COs could be more active in communication with the geocaching community. I mean that if CO knows about some problem he/she may leave a note in cache log like "Please wait until I maintain it" or "Please replace the full logbook with a new one and send me a scan of the old one" or "Please contact me in advance if you're about to visit this cache". This could be helpful. I suppose that to be responsible for a CO doesn't only mean to be ready to rush to any cache and repair it. It's also about being ready to communicate with cache seekers, to find local maintainers, at last to let other geocacher to adopt the cache.

 

Some people need to watch Jack Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men

 

Interesting. Will watch the movie again

[+L0ne.R]

 

If you're a newbie who saw a problem and wished to help the CO and the following visitors you should use the logs appropriately. In this case, the appropriate thing to do would be to log a NM. GS has provided us with excellent logging options. They are very helpful whether you're a newbie or a veteran cacher. I would especially want a newbie to get in the habit of using the logs appropriately to prevent any bad habits from developing. You taking my logbook without my permission is not 'helping' me. You notifying me via a NM log that my logbook is full so that I can go replace it, is helping me and future visitors.

 

 

This sums it up nicely.

[+L0ne.R]

 

I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

 

That would be considered a 'throw down', especially if you claimed a find on your cache replacement. Do you know for sure that the CO is still active? You may have created "litter" if there's no one around to maintain what you placed.

[+simpjkee]

I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

 

Despite a newbies' intentions, you call it an act of theft. This opinion was already made public but even if it wasn't (and wasn't related to any specific situation) it's not just about publicity. It's about personal understanding how geocaching is played in practice. COs are different. Most are happy when I help them to do little maintenance for their geocaches. Some don't care. Some say that it's not a good practice and it's better to post a NM message. Your position is the most radical I've heard. I usually don't know COs of caches that I'm going to visit and I definitely don't wan't anyone to think of me as a thieve. At the same time I see no sense in travelling to some remote location, finding a cache, discovering a wet/unusable logbook and leaving the place being not able to sign the logbook and log the cache as found. In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers.

Taking something that is not yours is an act of theft. I understand how geocaching is played. I understand CO's are different. I understand that some CO's prefer that you take their logs (up for debate, but is it theft if someone perfers that you take their stuff? hmmmm....). The best practice is to post a NM log. If you don't want anyone to think of you as a thief, your best bet is to log caches appropriately and not take something out that is not yours (in reference to the logbook, not swag, of course). If I can't sign a logbook, I add a logbook. Nothing wrong with leaving something in the cache. It's taking someone elses property out of the cache that constitutes theft. I love your theory of asking CO's before hand. I've helped out a few CO's in that way and they are usually very appreciative that I asked them first and got clear instructions on what they prefered I do.

[+simpjkee]

I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers.

This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place that as long as the CO gets on the ball, the old log is there. I went by a cache that I logged maybe 8 months ago and replaced the log. Left the old log in a plastic nano tube taped to the back of a sign. It is STILL there. IF the CO wants it. Myself, I can't begin to imagine why anyone would want a wet, shredded, ink stained piece of toilet tissue with a list of dates and names on it.

 

I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

Some people need to watch Jack Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men about questioning the manner in which protection is provided. Some COs are the type to bring a lawsuit against you for injuries they suffer when you save their lives by pulling them from a burning car. Jeesh.

If you placed a throwdown cache at my cache site I would really be upset. Maybe even more so than if you thieved my logbook. In your first paragraph, you are leaving a second cache at GZ. In your second paragraph you placed a throwdown. This is precisely the bad habits I'm talking about.

 

Your profile says you only been caching a little over a year so I assume you are new. For that, I'll give you a pass right now, but after today you're eligible for public shaming! You're not doing the game, CO's, or future finders any good. Please learn about the various logs GS has provided us and log your cache visits appropriately. Thank you!

[+simpjkee]

This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place

 

I agree. There are two different situations however: when a new logsheet cannot be added (mostly nanos) and when (as you mentioned) the logbook is totally wet and even can make some harm to other contents of the container.

 

I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

So I did in some cases. Last time a microcache was obviously muggled and (failing to contact the CO at once) I placed a small container in different location not far away and sent coordinates/description to the CO.

 

From my point of view COs could be more active in communication with the geocaching community. I mean that if CO knows about some problem he/she may leave a note in cache log like "Please wait until I maintain it" or "Please replace the full logbook with a new one and send me a scan of the old one" or "Please contact me in advance if you're about to visit this cache". This could be helpful. I suppose that to be responsible for a CO doesn't only mean to be ready to rush to any cache and repair it. It's also about being ready to communicate with cache seekers, to find local maintainers, at last to let other geocacher to adopt the cache.

Really? I think it's cleary implied that cache owners maintain their own caches and other cachers don't maintain caches that aren't theirs. Isn't one the only 'rules' of the game that cachers 'replace the cache as they found it'. I don't think it is my position that is 'radical'.

[Zerpersande]

 

I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

 

That would be considered a 'throw down', especially if you claimed a find on your cache replacement. Do you know for sure that the CO is still active? You may have created "litter" if there's no one around to maintain what you placed.

Did not claim a find and know for a fact CO is active. Even received a note on this one from CO.

[+-CJ-]

I love your theory of asking CO's before hand

 

I used to do this regularly in my region.

 

I think it's cleary implied that cache owners maintain their own caches and other cachers don't maintain caches that aren't theirs

 

When I'm about to place a cache far from my home location our local reviewer may ask for some working and reliable maintenance plan, right? This plan may involve some local who is able to respond to NM requests. Not necessarily myself. This is just an example. Maintenance (as I understand it from geocaching.com rules and practice and explanations within this forum) isn't limited to my personal obligation to go and replace e.g. a wet logbook immediately when I'm told to do this. It's a bit wider and more flexible.

 

I respect your approach that your don't want anyone to do any maintenance for your geocaches. What you're saying however is "folks, don't ever maintain caches that you don't own". Thus, it seems that my respect is not mutual Community members used to help each other to maintain geocaches, it usually depends on different factors, I can even post a message asking people e.g. to add a pencil to my geocache if I forgot to put it in, this won't be a tragedy or huge violation of traditions, so why not? Please be lenient and let me accept a little help from my friends

 

What I call "radical" is to use an extremely strong word "thief" to describe a geocacher who tried to help you in a way that may be unexpected, unliked by you or even unacceptable by rules/traditions of the game. A geocache thief it someone who intentionally steals geocaches trying to make harm to the cache, or the owner or the game at whole. We here (sadly) have some experience with such thieves. So I see distinct difference between these types of behaviour. Calling anyone's a thief sounds a bit... radical to my ear.

Edited February 13, 2013 by -CJ-

[+simpjkee]

When I'm about to place a cache far from my home location our local reviewer may ask for some working and reliable maintenance plan, right? This plan may involve some local who is able to respond to NM requests. Not necessarily myself. This is just an example. Maintenance (as I understand it from geocaching.com rules and practice and explanations within this forum) isn't limited to my personal obligation to go and replace e.g. a wet logbook immediately when I'm told to do this. It's a bit wider and more flexible.

Right. You are correct. Having a designated friend to help you maintain your cache is an acceptable cache maintanence plan. Relying on random cachers to maintain your cache whenever there is an issue is not. But were talking about cache maintanence from the finders perspective not the owner.

 

I respect your approach that your don't want anyone to do any maintenance for your geocaches. What you're saying however is "folks, don't ever maintain caches that you don't own". Thus, it seems that my respect is not mutual Community members used to help each other to maintain geocaches, it usually depends on different factors, I can even post a message asking people e.g. to add a pencil to my geocache if I forgot to put it in, this won't be a tragedy or huge violation of traditions, so why not? Please be lenient and let me accept a little help from my friends

On a cache you own, you can add those notes (for the record you're talking about a finder adding something not taking something which is what prompted this discussion). Whether that is an acceptable maintanence plan is debatable and off topic in this thread.

 

Maybe I should remind you that the topic here is a cache finder taking a logbook without the owners permission. That is the issue here and that is thievery. The topic is not you adding something to the cache or you, as cache owner, asking people to leave pencils in your cache or acceptable cache maintanence plans.

 

I am saying "folks don't ever maintain caches you don't own, especially without owners permission. As finder, please use the logs provided by GS to accurately share your visit online. If your visit resulted in you feeling the cache needs maintanence. That is what you should log."

 

What I call "radical" is to use an extremely strong word "thief" to describe a geocacher who tried to help you in a way that may be unexpected, unliked by you or even unacceptable by rules/traditions of the game. A geocache thief it someone who intentionally steals geocaches trying to make harm to the cache, or the owner or the game at whole. We here (sadly) have some experience with such thieves. So I see distinct difference between these types of behaviour. Calling anyone's a thief sounds a bit... radical to my ear.

What would you call someone who takes something that is not theirs without permission of the owner, and does so thinking they are doing the owner a favor? I don't know what that word is. 'Thief' is what comes to mind. stealer? poacher?

[+-CJ-]

Thank you simpjkee for your opinion, I value this conversation.

 

What would you call someone

 

English is my second language so I would better not give any suggestions here.

 

I'm a worried about how this thread went and apologize for any insults that may occur from my words. Maybe there are some cultural differencies that I don't know yet or it's just about my not-so-excellent English.

Edited February 14, 2013 by -CJ-

[+Ma & Pa]

If the log is full, I usually provide a new log sheet in a baggie and leave the old one if there is room for both. If no room, I still replace and take out the old one. If the log is soaked and unusable, I replace with a new one in a tiny baggie.

 

I always indicate my action in the log.

 

If someone wants to call me a thief, for doing that, I dont mind. It is just a piece of paper with scribbling on it.

 

I agree that the old log belongs to the CO. I can only see the log having value to the CO in two situations.

 

1) if the CO intended to check all the logs to compare with the logs online. I dont know any cachers in our area who does this, although I am sure there must be cachers who do this. I keep the old log but no CO has ever asked me for it.

 

2) If the CO wanted to read all the logs on the log sheet out of interest. I cant recall the last time I have seen a long log on a log sheet or a log book; most cachers seem to keep their comments for the online log.

 

In my opinion, replacing a log sheet is a service to the CO and also to other cachers who may come by later.

 

I realize that it is the cache owner's responsibility to do maintenance, but this hobby works because these people are willing to spend the time and expense to prepare and hide caches for us all. If replacing a log sheet helps them out, I am glad to do it.

 

PAul

Edited February 14, 2013 by Ma & Pa

[+OZ2CPU]

exactly Paul..

in my part of the world we help out if we can,

even if we dont know the CO we help, all are happy,

yesterday I read a previous find log of a cache I plan to find,

he say wet log, please next finder bring new log,

I always bring sizzor and paper sheets so I can make any size needed,

I wrote in my log : nice new dry log replaced,

NO need to wait for a CO to show up and fix matters like this,

but if a container is missing it is the CO or an approved friend who can fix it,

no one else, without prior permission.

 

There is no requirement specified about how active a CO must be to own active caches,

if you are not happy with the service you get for free, perform better service your self.

[+simpjkee]

Thank you simpjkee for your opinion, I value this conversation.

 

What would you call someone

 

English is my second language so I would better not give any suggestions here.

 

I'm a worried about how this thread went and apologize for any insults that may occur from my words. Maybe there are some cultural differencies that I don't know yet or it's just about my not-so-excellent English.

I value this discussion as well. No worries. I don't feel insulted at all. Just two friends talking about the hobby we are both passionate about.

 

I thought your english was fine. I was surprised when I looked at your profile and saw you are Russian.

[+simpjkee]

exactly Paul..

in my part of the world we help out if we can,

even if we dont know the CO we help, all are happy,

yesterday I read a previous find log of a cache I plan to find,

he say wet log, please next finder bring new log,

I always bring sizzor and paper sheets so I can make any size needed,

I wrote in my log : nice new dry log replaced,

NO need to wait for a CO to show up and fix matters like this,

But I like to show up and fix these matters. I like to check on my caches. Its part of the enjoyment of being a cache owner. Going out to maintain my cache is not an inconvenience. It is a convenience!

[+simpjkee]

If the log is full, I usually provide a new log sheet in a baggie and leave the old one if there is room for both. If no room, I still replace and take out the old one. If the log is soaked and unusable, I replace with a new one in a tiny baggie.

 

I always indicate my action in the log.

 

If someone wants to call me a thief, for doing that, I dont mind. It is just a piece of paper with scribbling on it.

 

I agree that the old log belongs to the CO. I can only see the log having value to the CO in two situations.

 

1) if the CO intended to check all the logs to compare with the logs online. I dont know any cachers in our area who does this, although I am sure there must be cachers who do this. I keep the old log but no CO has ever asked me for it.

 

2) If the CO wanted to read all the logs on the log sheet out of interest. I cant recall the last time I have seen a long log on a log sheet or a log book; most cachers seem to keep their comments for the online log.

 

In my opinion, replacing a log sheet is a service to the CO and also to other cachers who may come by later.

 

I realize that it is the cache owner's responsibility to do maintenance, but this hobby works because these people are willing to spend the time and expense to prepare and hide caches for us all. If replacing a log sheet helps them out, I am glad to do it.

 

PAul

I value my logbooks. They are more than just a 'piece of paper with scribbling on it'! Other cachers like geocoins. I love and collect my logbooks. Maybe I'm the only one. Here's my personal collection from my archived caches and a few caches where the CO asked me to replace the logbook and didn't want it back (so I kept it):

 

 

Maybe my most notable log:

 

[Zerpersande]

I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers.

This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place that as long as the CO gets on the ball, the old log is there. I went by a cache that I logged maybe 8 months ago and replaced the log. Left the old log in a plastic nano tube taped to the back of a sign. It is STILL there. IF the CO wants it. Myself, I can't begin to imagine why anyone would want a wet, shredded, ink stained piece of toilet tissue with a list of dates and names on it.

 

I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

Some people need to watch Jack Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men about questioning the manner in which protection is provided. Some COs are the type to bring a lawsuit against you for injuries they suffer when you save their lives by pulling them from a burning car. Jeesh.

If you placed a throwdown cache at my cache site I would really be upset. Maybe even more so than if you thieved my logbook. In your first paragraph, you are leaving a second cache at GZ. In your second paragraph you placed a throwdown. This is precisely the bad habits I'm talking about.

 

Your profile says you only been caching a little over a year so I assume you are new. For that, I'll give you a pass right now, but after today you're eligible for public shaming! You're not doing the game, CO's, or future finders any good. Please learn about the various logs GS has provided us and log your cache visits appropriately. Thank you!

1- I didn't thieve a log book. If anything I protected it from further damage, put it in a safe place and informed the CO. 2- Not a throw down. Placed an empty cache at a nearby location. Took a pic of it and sent the new coords to the ACTIVE CO. Didn't log it. Posted a NM log.

 

So public shaming? Try to explain exactly how I did anything at all to deserve shame from either of the above though. I just don't see it. This missing cache was way out in the country. With gas at $7.50/gallon here, this is not a trivial matter. The CO had the option of going out there. If so, fine. The cache wasn't interfering with anything. Now, if I had just tossed the log? Not a big deal to me but would agree that some COs might want it and even if they didn't, some would say so just so they could do a bit of public shaming.

 

To me, it looks like the safest way to avoid conflict is just say screw it, make a couple of ink marks on the wet tissue, and move along. Not REQUIRED to log a NM. Might just piss off the CO that you didn't do something. Might piss the CO if you do something. Not going to send a message, set up camp and wait for a response. Yeah, let's all do that. Except for my caches. If you find something wrong with my cache and fix it, thanks. Just don't move it from where you found it to a better place. That IS against the rules, right?

[Zerpersande]

If the log is full, I usually provide a new log sheet in a baggie and leave the old one if there is room for both. If no room, I still replace and take out the old one. If the log is soaked and unusable, I replace with a new one in a tiny baggie.

 

I always indicate my action in the log.

 

If someone wants to call me a thief, for doing that, I dont mind. It is just a piece of paper with scribbling on it.

 

I agree that the old log belongs to the CO. I can only see the log having value to the CO in two situations.

 

1) if the CO intended to check all the logs to compare with the logs online. I dont know any cachers in our area who does this, although I am sure there must be cachers who do this. I keep the old log but no CO has ever asked me for it.

 

2) If the CO wanted to read all the logs on the log sheet out of interest. I cant recall the last time I have seen a long log on a log sheet or a log book; most cachers seem to keep their comments for the online log.

 

In my opinion, replacing a log sheet is a service to the CO and also to other cachers who may come by later.

 

I realize that it is the cache owner's responsibility to do maintenance, but this hobby works because these people are willing to spend the time and expense to prepare and hide caches for us all. If replacing a log sheet helps them out, I am glad to do it.

 

PAul

I value my logbooks. They are more than just a 'piece of paper with scribbling on it'! Other cachers like geocoins. I love and collect my logbooks. Maybe I'm the only one. Here's my personal collection from my archived caches and a few caches where the CO asked me to replace the logbook and didn't want it back (so I kept it):

 

 

Maybe my most notable log:

 

And your log book would have been as well preserved as I could have made it. My actions feasibly could have prevented the next person, of a different type, from just having tossed it, who knows. Really, if you like your logs, more power to you. Whatever floats your boat. Really. This will probably make me think carefully about how best to protect future caches. Of course, this DID start with nanos. Larger logs in larger containers would not really pose much of a problem as to what to do, huh?

[+OZ2CPU]

I did save my first logbook from my first cache made in 2006

back then people did write nice long and funny logs in the paper log,

and maybe a bit shorter online, today it is the other way arround, I like the new way better

since important and funny info is preserved forever and shared wit all people.

 

after a while it started to smell bad,

so I figured a nice smell in my room was more important over beeing sentimental,

so I had to toss it.

Now I dont save anything, but I am very happy to learn about the fun you have saving logbooks,

it is all about accepting others feel other things are important, and it is super that way,

so lession lerned :-)

Lets keep and preserve the old logs we replace, ask CO what to do next,

if he say toss it, fine you toss it, if he say he like to keep it,

be ready to send it to him, incase you took it home to dry,

or arrange to put it into another one of his caches after telling him about it.

I used one of my ammo caches as an in-box to receive items from cachers before, this works perfectly fine :-)

ok maybe there is a chance another cacher show up meanwhile and think it is swag ??

[+simpjkee]

I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers.

This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place that as long as the CO gets on the ball, the old log is there. I went by a cache that I logged maybe 8 months ago and replaced the log. Left the old log in a plastic nano tube taped to the back of a sign. It is STILL there. IF the CO wants it. Myself, I can't begin to imagine why anyone would want a wet, shredded, ink stained piece of toilet tissue with a list of dates and names on it.

 

I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing.

 

Some people need to watch Jack Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men about questioning the manner in which protection is provided. Some COs are the type to bring a lawsuit against you for injuries they suffer when you save their lives by pulling them from a burning car. Jeesh.

If you placed a throwdown cache at my cache site I would really be upset. Maybe even more so than if you thieved my logbook. In your first paragraph, you are leaving a second cache at GZ. In your second paragraph you placed a throwdown. This is precisely the bad habits I'm talking about.

 

Your profile says you only been caching a little over a year so I assume you are new. For that, I'll give you a pass right now, but after today you're eligible for public shaming! You're not doing the game, CO's, or future finders any good. Please learn about the various logs GS has provided us and log your cache visits appropriately. Thank you!

1- I didn't thieve a log book. If anything I protected it from further damage, put it in a safe place and informed the CO. 2- Not a throw down. Placed an empty cache at a nearby location. Took a pic of it and sent the new coords to the ACTIVE CO. Didn't log it. Posted a NM log.

 

So public shaming? Try to explain exactly how I did anything at all to deserve shame from either of the above though. I just don't see it. This missing cache was way out in the country. With gas at $7.50/gallon here, this is not a trivial matter. The CO had the option of going out there. If so, fine. The cache wasn't interfering with anything. Now, if I had just tossed the log? Not a big deal to me but would agree that some COs might want it and even if they didn't, some would say so just so they could do a bit of public shaming.

 

To me, it looks like the safest way to avoid conflict is just say screw it, make a couple of ink marks on the wet tissue, and move along. Not REQUIRED to log a NM. Might just piss off the CO that you didn't do something. Might piss the CO if you do something. Not going to send a message, set up camp and wait for a response. Yeah, let's all do that. Except for my caches. If you find something wrong with my cache and fix it, thanks. Just don't move it from where you found it to a better place. That IS against the rules, right?

I didn't say you thieved a logbook in these two cases. I said you placed a throwdown, which you did do. Maybe I misunderstand, but you stated: "I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone." How is that not a throwdown? If it were my cache, I'd have to go to the countryside anyway to get rid of your throwdown nano and replace my cache appropriately.

 

The public shaming comment was just a snarky remark. U mad bro? (<------thats snarky too)

 

If you are looking for the safest way to avoid conflict, you could just stop playing geocaching. That would pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't see any geo-conflict. But I'd hate to see that happen so lets think about this. No CO has the right to be upset with a finder for not maintaining their cache for them. If you don't maintain a cache for a CO, that's their problem not yours. On the flipside, the CO has every right to be upset with a finder who 'maintains' their cache for them without their permission. That's on you. If you want to do the right thing, you'll use the logs given to us by GS appropriately. If the CO decides, for whatever reason (price of gas, etc) that they can't or don't want to maintain their cache, they shouldn't own it. It should be archived or adopted out to someone who will maintain it. The choice is the CO's. Not the finders.

 

It's interesting that we both seem to agree that its a fundamental part of the game that caches should be rehidden as found, but you have a list of scenarios where that basic idea doesn't apply.