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Regarding log sheets - Please...


DragonsWest

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Do not use photocopier paper or notebook paper, unless it is in an ammo box or other very hardy container.

 

I spent a long weekend of caching in northern California and 99% of log failure is really bad paper used. Photocopier paper is nearly falling to bits after it is half filled. Notebook strips are even more fragile. Keep in mind your cache may be found by hundreds of people. Look what happens to a dollar bill by the time you get it. (now that would be some great logging paper, tough and water resistant!)

 

Rite in Rain works very well, as does National Geographic map paper (You can find it at outfitter stores, such as REI)

 

It's such a pleasure to open a cache and actually find a long, not a wad of grotty paper stuffed into the remains of ziploc bag, particularly where water has intruded.

 

Last but not least, the log should be fitting of the cache. If it is a small or larger cache, please consider putting an actual notebook inside, rather than a bison strip log. I've actually found these in Ammo boxes and done a great face-palm, you'll foot an ammo box, but skimp on the log?!? Some people (myself included) still like to write out a description of a visit. When out hiking some of these are great reading while taking a break.

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I definitely agree about the size of the log being suitable for the container.

There is nothing like a smaller cache that is totally filled crammed with three 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper.

Could have been some room for some trades or a TB, but not now!

And, as you say, there is no way that paper is going to last long enough to get filled up anyway.

 

I do have to take issue with your proclamation that Rite in Rain or National Geographic map paper are the ultimate.

If everyone always used a pencil, you could be right.

But, most pens today are gel pens, and they don't write well on these products...can you say smear?

 

If someone is going to go to the effort to buy one of those products, they could just as easily get some high-quality bond paper that will accept gel ink...and will definitely outlast the cheapo copier paper stolen from the office. :lol:

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Now that I am thinking about it, the log size part is forgotten way to often. Just last week I was just digging through a large just to find the log. When found, it was exactly how you described, Small log in a ripped plastic baggie (At least it wasn't wet!).

Also, I often can't sign my full username on smaller logs, R~Traceur instead, so I find joy whenever there is a enough space for me to write the whole thing, I'm sure AZcachemeister and others with long names know feel this as well. :lol:

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... I'm sure AZcachemeister and others with long names know feel this as well. :lol:

 

Many are the times I have wished I chose a shorter username. :(

Luckily, it easily contracts to ACM when needed.

 

Recently, I joked with another cacher and suggested that 'scribble' would make a great username...penmanship and legibility issues go out the window! :grin:

 

EDITED: So the grammar police won't get me.

Edited by AZcachemeister
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Do not use photocopier paper or notebook paper, unless it is in an ammo box or other very hardy container.

 

I don't mind using decent paper but isn't the point that your container should protect the contents?

 

Precisely.

 

But, I think part of the issue at hand is the repeated handling of the log, and all the folding, unfolding, and re-folding that sometimes happens.

 

I've seen plenty of logs that have never been wet, but were falling apart. (Mostly due to too much log stuffed into the container.)

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Do not use photocopier paper or notebook paper, unless it is in an ammo box or other very hardy container.

 

I don't mind using decent paper but isn't the point that your container should protect the contents?

 

Precisely.

 

But, I think part of the issue at hand is the repeated handling of the log, and all the folding, unfolding, and re-folding that sometimes happens.

 

I've seen plenty of logs that have never been wet, but were falling apart. (Mostly due to too much log stuffed into the container.)

 

Fair enough, but give me a few examples of the quality I should be using - below the Rite in the rain level.

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Do not use photocopier paper or notebook paper, unless it is in an ammo box or other very hardy container.

 

Keep in mind your cache may be found by hundreds of people. Look what happens to a dollar bill by the time you get it. (now that would be some great logging paper, tough and water resistant!)

 

I have many boxes of Crane note paper. Now I have a use for it besides the occasional note. not quite the same as dollar bill paper but still cotton based. Thanks for the idea. now to see if it holds up well.

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I don't usually have issue with logs that are small but i do with a log that is too large for caches. Bisons with logs so thick that it takes a finder 3 times to finally roll it small enough to stuff back in. Or logs that are too long for the container that end up ruffled and torn at the end. Or, placing a log into the baggie that is the same size as that log. Logs placed in these situations usually end up being scraggly and torn up after only a few finders have gone through.

 

Seems like a cache owner would think about this and save both, them and finders, these little headaches.

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I don't usually have issue with logs that are small but i do with a log that is too large for caches. Bisons with logs so thick that it takes a finder 3 times to finally roll it small enough to stuff back in. Or logs that are too long for the container that end up ruffled and torn at the end. Or, placing a log into the baggie that is the same size as that log. Logs placed in these situations usually end up being scraggly and torn up after only a few finders have gone through.

 

Seems like a cache owner would think about this and save both, them and finders, these little headaches.

 

Just as bad is a 3" x 5" notebook in a Nalgene bottle. Those are fun to extract.

 

Anyway, I've hidden and found hundreds of caches with notebook and copier paper logbooks and don't see the issue. By the time the finds get into hundreds you should be on your second or third log anyway.

 

I've used National Geographic paper but it gets brittle over time so is not much better than paper in the long run. And it's pretty hard to write on with a pencil and some inks run if it gets wet.

Edited by briansnat
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I heard of one guy who could get Tyvex suits from work (you know, those disposable "paper" coveralls you see asbestos abatement and Hazmat guys wearing sometimes). They're white, waterproof, and writable and possibly free if you know somebody in industry. He would cut the suit up into little pieces whatever size he needed. I'm sure you can make a LOT of logsheets out of one suit.

 

Kind of an off the wall idea but Tyvex is a great material for a waterproof paper.

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Look what happens to a dollar bill by the time you get it. (now that would be some great logging paper, tough and water resistant!)

 

It's called rag paper. You can get it in art supply stores.

 

If someone is going to go to the effort to buy one of those products, they could just as easily get some high-quality bond paper that will accept gel ink...and will definitely outlast the cheapo copier paper stolen from the office. :lol:

 

...except that gel ink on any kind of paper will run when it gets wet, which is, chemically speaking, probably why gel ink doesn't write well on RITR paper. It's like oil and water.

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In general I find as long as the cache container keeps the log fairly dry, there aren't issues with the specific paper. My caches all have notebooks for the log.

 

The other day I did find a nano which had a log which was cut from some thin/cheap copier type paper. This was an issue, as to roll it up tight enough requires some tension on the paper and it had broken into several pieces already (and I added an additional break). In this case even a higher weight printer paper would have fared better.

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In general I find as long as the cache container keeps the log fairly dry, there aren't issues with the specific paper. My caches all have notebooks for the log.

 

The other day I did find a nano which had a log which was cut from some thin/cheap copier type paper. This was an issue, as to roll it up tight enough requires some tension on the paper and it had broken into several pieces already (and I added an additional break). In this case even a higher weight printer paper would have fared better.

 

Rolling blinky or any rolled log, for that matter, requires no tension.

 

- Practice this with a dollar bill,

a. Roll it up.

b. Using fingertips roll in the direction it is wrapped.

c. It will naturally become tighter and more compact.

d. Insert rolled log back in container.

 

I've seen people try to tighten rolled logs by holding the ends between thumb and forefinger of one hand and tugging the loose end of the paper with the other hand. Poor way to do it. Just try the above procedure. Friction of the paper will make it roll up nice and tight and much quicker, too.

 

Oh, and photocopier paper makes horrible blinky logs, for certain. As the pulp content becomes ragged after rolling and unrolling a few times. It was never intended for such gymnastics.

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Rain write paper is awesome. Will change all of my caches to this type of paper as I do maintenance. Otherwise wet Messes of clumpy paper---Yuck! Ammo Can, please use a real log book--do you really like to do a lot of maintenance? Ammo Can in the woods, real log book, years later--it is still there with no maintenance to speak of. Priceless. I often think of the old caches that I do: Ammo Can in the woods, log book, CO long gone and cache is still in excellent condition.

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Rain write paper is awesome. Will change all of my caches to this type of paper as I do maintenance. Otherwise wet Messes of clumpy paper---Yuck! Ammo Can, please use a real log book--do you really like to do a lot of maintenance? Ammo Can in the woods, real log book, years later--it is still there with no maintenance to speak of. Priceless. I often think of the old caches that I do: Ammo Can in the woods, log book, CO long gone and cache is still in excellent condition.

 

I have an ammo can, coming up on 10 years. Granted, it usually sees 3 or 4 finds a year by people who are up for some hiking Comments come in, surprised what marvelous condition it is in, as it if had just been hidden. I put a notebook in there.

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For micros and really small smalls I use copy paper (unless the bison comes with RITR logs. For anything else I use small notepads. I've had a few issues with a couple containers where an o-ring failed and got the log wet, but I've had a matchstick that's been out for a couple years with standard copy paper and other than adding some new sheets it was doing fine.

 

The real issue is that either finders are not reporting these wet logs, or the owners are not maintaining their caches. If I see a find that mentions a wet log the cache will get a new log within a week. I would guess it's more of an issue with owners using substandard containers (cheap dollar tree tupperware, pill bottles, reused plastic food containers etc) and not maintaining their containers.

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I don't usually have issue with logs that are small but i do with a log that is too large for caches. Bisons with logs so thick that it takes a finder 3 times to finally roll it small enough to stuff back in. Or logs that are too long for the container that end up ruffled and torn at the end. Or, placing a log into the baggie that is the same size as that log. Logs placed in these situations usually end up being scraggly and torn up after only a few finders have gone through.

 

Seems like a cache owner would think about this and save both, them and finders, these little headaches.

 

Just as bad is a 3" x 5" notebook in a Nalgene bottle. Those are fun to extract.

 

Anyway, I've hidden and found hundreds of caches with notebook and copier paper logbooks and don't see the issue. By the time the finds get into hundreds you should be on your second or third log anyway.

 

I've used National Geographic paper but it gets brittle over time so is not much better than paper in the long run. And it's pretty hard to write on with a pencil and some inks run if it gets wet.

 

My cheapskateness is showing here but it was also for a good cause,, that being to make a log fit easily into a smaller container.

 

I've gotten two logbooks from one 3x5 notepad a few times. Simply bend the spiral wire so that it can be unscrewed from the pad. Then, a few pages at a time, cut in half. At this point, you can also cut down the length if need be. Cut the wire in half as well then reassemble the two. Give the wire a little bend to keep if from unscrewing and you're done. These fit into the smaller baggies then into a lot of smaller mouth containers. :D

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My cheapskateness is showing here but it was also for a good cause,, that being to make a log fit easily into a smaller container.

 

I've gotten two logbooks from one 3x5 notepad a few times. Simply bend the spiral wire so that it can be unscrewed from the pad. Then, a few pages at a time, cut in half. At this point, you can also cut down the length if need be. Cut the wire in half as well then reassemble the two. Give the wire a little bend to keep if from unscrewing and you're done. These fit into the smaller baggies then into a lot of smaller mouth containers. :D

 

I do the very same thing with spiral bound 3x5 notebooks. Not because I'm being cheap, but because they fit better in smaller caches and you can easily remove them from a Nalgene bottle. I still use the entire notebook if it fits in the container.

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My cheapskateness is showing here but it was also for a good cause,, that being to make a log fit easily into a smaller container.

 

I've gotten two logbooks from one 3x5 notepad a few times. Simply bend the spiral wire so that it can be unscrewed from the pad. Then, a few pages at a time, cut in half. At this point, you can also cut down the length if need be. Cut the wire in half as well then reassemble the two. Give the wire a little bend to keep if from unscrewing and you're done. These fit into the smaller baggies then into a lot of smaller mouth containers. :D

 

I do the very same thing with spiral bound 3x5 notebooks. Not because I'm being cheap, but because they fit better in smaller caches and you can easily remove them from a Nalgene bottle. I still use the entire notebook if it fits in the container.

 

Um... Two of my caching hikes in the last few weeks had a lot of caches placed by a hider that takes those books and cuts them into thirds. With only four of five spirals and holes, almost all of them had numerous pages that had come loose. Past cachers carelessly stuffed the pages back into the container and they would spill out when I removed the log, leaving me to chase them down in the wind.

 

Just something to consider.

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Um... Two of my caching hikes in the last few weeks had a lot of caches placed by a hider that takes those books and cuts them into thirds. With only four of five spirals and holes, almost all of them had numerous pages that had come loose. Past cachers carelessly stuffed the pages back into the container and they would spill out when I removed the log, leaving me to chase them down in the wind.

 

Just something to consider.

 

Let's be gentle out there, folks! I suspect that half the problem with cache deterioration comes from rough and careless handling. Sure, log sheets, lock n lock flaps, camo tape all get worn out with use and exposure. So be careful, mend what you can, take the time to smooth out the edges, and pack things properly. :)

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b6a4439d-3a8e-4503-b0ad-f36b9903c895.jpg

cafa94d2-b947-4ea8-9ff3-6338644270c6.jpg

 

Of all of my caches, this is my favorite logbook, and it fits the location.

On my micro, I attach a toothpick to the paper so people can get it out and roll it up easier.

I am guilty of using plain old paper, but I try to make sure my containers are waterproof, and logs are easy to get at.

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My cheapskateness is showing here but it was also for a good cause,, that being to make a log fit easily into a smaller container.

 

I've gotten two logbooks from one 3x5 notepad a few times. Simply bend the spiral wire so that it can be unscrewed from the pad. Then, a few pages at a time, cut in half. At this point, you can also cut down the length if need be. Cut the wire in half as well then reassemble the two. Give the wire a little bend to keep if from unscrewing and you're done. These fit into the smaller baggies then into a lot of smaller mouth containers. :D

 

I do the very same thing with spiral bound 3x5 notebooks. Not because I'm being cheap, but because they fit better in smaller caches and you can easily remove them from a Nalgene bottle. I still use the entire notebook if it fits in the container.

 

Um... Two of my caching hikes in the last few weeks had a lot of caches placed by a hider that takes those books and cuts them into thirds. With only four of five spirals and holes, almost all of them had numerous pages that had come loose. Past cachers carelessly stuffed the pages back into the container and they would spill out when I removed the log, leaving me to chase them down in the wind.

 

Just something to consider.

 

I've halved a few times and haven't had any problems. But i agree, into thirds would probably be a bit too small. Just not enough holes in the paper to keep it together at that point.

 

My point was that i made the logbook fit the container properly so that it wouldn't get torn during a find. A logbook too large seems to go downhill pretty fast if finders have trouble removing and replacing it into the container.

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Just a question. Caches with soaked logs, I do mention in my logs. However, my question is, should I also put up a needs maintenance note as well when the logs are soaked badly or the middle ground, send a PM to the CO?

I normally just mention it in the log, but if multiple people have been saying it for a while I put a needs maintenance.

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Just a question. Caches with soaked logs, I do mention in my logs. However, my question is, should I also put up a needs maintenance note as well when the logs are soaked badly or the middle ground, send a PM to the CO?

I normally just mention it in the log, but if multiple people have been saying it for a while I put a needs maintenance.

 

Same here. I mention it in the log but if it's been mentioned before with no response from the CO, it gets an NM log.

 

If it's in rough shape, has multiple NMs and soaked log write-ups in the log, and the cache appears to be abandoned, it gets an NA (backed up with a photo of the condition of the cache). If I live nearby I'll go back and clean up the mess if the cache ends up getting archived by the reviewer.

Edited by L0ne R
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I heard of one guy who could get Tyvex suits from work (you know, those disposable "paper" coveralls you see asbestos abatement and Hazmat guys wearing sometimes). They're white, waterproof, and writable and possibly free if you know somebody in industry. He would cut the suit up into little pieces whatever size he needed. I'm sure you can make a LOT of logsheets out of one suit.

 

Kind of an off the wall idea but Tyvex is a great material for a waterproof paper.

 

You can also get tyvec from home depot or lowes. Ask the clerk forn "house wrap". comes in a 6 foot wide roll. I believe you can buy sheets.

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I heard of one guy who could get Tyvex suits from work (you know, those disposable "paper" coveralls you see asbestos abatement and Hazmat guys wearing sometimes). They're white, waterproof, and writable and possibly free if you know somebody in industry. He would cut the suit up into little pieces whatever size he needed. I'm sure you can make a LOT of logsheets out of one suit.

 

Kind of an off the wall idea but Tyvex is a great material for a waterproof paper.

 

You can also get tyvec from home depot or lowes. Ask the clerk forn "house wrap". comes in a 6 foot wide roll. I believe you can buy sheets.

 

Great stuff for waterproofness. :)

But, you need a Sharpie or a pencil to write on it. A 'regular' pen won't work, stickers won't stick and stamp ink wipes right off. :(

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I heard of one guy who could get Tyvex suits from work (you know, those disposable "paper" coveralls you see asbestos abatement and Hazmat guys wearing sometimes). They're white, waterproof, and writable and possibly free if you know somebody in industry. He would cut the suit up into little pieces whatever size he needed. I'm sure you can make a LOT of logsheets out of one suit.

 

Kind of an off the wall idea but Tyvex is a great material for a waterproof paper.

 

You can also get tyvec from home depot or lowes. Ask the clerk forn "house wrap". comes in a 6 foot wide roll. I believe you can buy sheets.

 

I don't think they are the same thing. The suits i've actually worn are more of a paper material. Not sure about stickers but ink, pencil, and marker all work well on it. The stuff on my house is more of a plastic.

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I've used National Geographic paper but it gets brittle over time so is not much better than paper in the long run. And it's pretty hard to write on with a pencil and some inks run if it gets wet.

That's what I have in my 35mm Micro (which seals humidity inside). It's sweet to write on. Classy. People have complimented about the quality log sheets. But many of the signatures have spread out in colorful ink stains over the couple of years it's been there, even to the point of fading away. The inkjet print did, too. I may not replace it with the same fancy stuff, but whatever I try, I'll change the log more often.

Edited by kunarion
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I've used National Geographic paper but it gets brittle over time so is not much better than paper in the long run. And it's pretty hard to write on with a pencil and some inks run if it gets wet.

I'll change my Nat Geo log sheet more often. My 35mm canister cache holds moisture inside, and some signatures fade away completely. The FTF used a fine Sharpie, and that signature is still perfect (but even a slightly wet Nat Geo log can ruin a Sharpie pen). Some sigs that look like ball point pen ink have also bled a little, but the indentation from signing is there. I printed that log using an Inkjet, and the black ink is OK, the red has spread a little. Looks like 6 months is about when some signatures start getting unreadable in that cache. I might place a cache with the request for pen info (which make/model was used for the signature), to find out what works. :anicute:

 

2pt84f6.jpg

Edited by kunarion
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