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WE4NCS

Inconsistent geocache approval

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I saw this new ham radio Field Day event geocache on the geocaching.com web site

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=gcg8rh

 

I created a similar ham radio Field Day event geocache but was denied. The same Feild Day event, same

dates and almost the same wording. The location is different.

 

Mine is http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=75660

 

I need to understand the difference and what I need to do fit the mold and standard that was used to approve the cache.

 

I feel that the approval of the PSE QSL event geocache and the disapproval of my W4RMT event geocache is inconsistent. Either both should be approved or both be archived.

 

Can geocachers hams please give me guidance or input here.

 

Bert

WE4NCS

we4ncs@mindspring.com

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Sorry, I cannot be of much help except to suggest you contact the approver who disapproved you, and ask why. Make your case, show your evidence, and hope for the best.

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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Bert, the same thing happened to us. I really feel your pain.

 

My similar experience:

 

Our Field Day cache attempt

 

The reason, given by Geocaching.com, why it was archived:

 

quote:
I am really sorry but I cannot approve the radio field day(s) as a geocaching event. This has already been discussed by the admins and a decision made that it is not a 'caching event back in March. It has been denied by other ham afficionados who proposed it (you're not the only one--folks in several other states have all been denied event caches for field day). The thinking is that outside events scheduled for a specific

purpose should not be posted as event caches, even if geocachers are invited. Unless a geocacher is hosting an event specifically for geocachers it cannot be listed on the site.

 

This comes straight from the top, and I have no authority to make exceptions. I recognize that there have been some ham radio events in the

past that were also posted as geocaching events, but it's been decided that geocaching events must really be primarily about geocaching and that

other activities should be secondary.

 

You are always welcome to write to me (email address was here), but since I have zero this one, I'd suggest you write directly to contact@Groundspeak.com if you wish to appeal your case.

 

Regretfully,

 

(admin)

geocaching.com


 

My first response was short:

 

quote:
OK, but there is already a Field Day cache approved, so I didn't think it would be a problem. See http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=73985

 

And upon further reflection, wrote back:

 

quote:
Upon further reflection, this decision is not OK with me and I'd like an official explanation as to why one Field Day cache was approved and the others not.

 

In other words, since there is a Field Day cache already approved, I am officially appealing your decision not to approve our cache.

 

According to your criteria, the approved Field Day cache also is not primarily a geocacher's event, but somehow was approved anyhow. It is stated, by "Honeychile", that he/she realizes that there have been past ham-related events, but unless I am not understanding the spirit and the dates of the approved Field Day cache, the approved cache has yet to occur, nor is it primarily a geocaching event. What is the difference between that approved event and the event that I tried to place?

 

Nowhere, in the geocaching.com/Groundspeak forums, is it posted or stated that Field Day caches will not be approved. Obviously, from your statement, quite a few others wishing to place a Field Day cache are going through some time, effort, and expense to plan these caches, only to be turned down, unaware of the decision. Perhaps, there needs to be posted, an explanation in the Ham-related forums, this decision, so that

others don't go through the fruitless exercise of trying to place an event cache that will only be archived.

 

"(Admin)", I understand that the decision was not yours, so I'd really like an explanation "from the top" as to why there is an approved Field Day cache, despite the decision that was made back in March. By the way, the approved Field Day cache was "hidden" on 6/10/2003, so he did not post this event prior to your decision back in March.

 

Sincerely, JustBeingJolly


 

The response to my short first reply:

 

quote:
Thanks for your email. There has been many discussion about these caches. What it comes down to is they are not geocaching events for geocachers.

 

The cache that you give example of here was approved before all of the discussions. I am not archiving that cache, but we have asked that the

approvers not approve any more of these type events.

 

Happy Geocaching!


 

So far, I haven't recieved a response to my longer reply.

 

I agree that the rules should be evenly applied. It was my impression that this was a good-natured sport, but I'm really beginning to wonder

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Thanks for posting this info...I had hoped to talk to the local FD chairman(who is also a cacher) about having an event cache for a future FD...guess not,huh?

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I posted in your dupe thread here.

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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As did I. I think it's good to keep it in the mainstream forums, because ultimately it affects more than just us Hams.

 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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I posted some more thoughts about this issue in the above-mentioned forum.

 

The Geocaching admins just don't seem to be providing any solid reasoning on this.

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I also posted a reply in the duplicated forum here.

I think I have given you some solid reasoning.

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quote:
Originally posted by Geo-Trekker:

I just dropped the whole idea of a FD Cache after it was denied 5 times. I just got fed up


Why would you keep resubmitting the same event 5 times if it kept getting declined?

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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quote:
Why would you keep resubmitting the same event 5 times if it kept getting declined?

No Kidding!

After the first 2 or 3 times....

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quote:
Originally posted by Geo-Trekker:

... I just dropped the whole idea of a FD Cache after it was denied 5 times. I just got fed up


I will say this about hams, you are a PERSISTENT bunch. Here in Pennsylvania I archived the same Field Day event four times, all submitted by the same person. With each archive note, it got more and more difficult to be polite (remembering if I'm not polite, the message would likely be posted in the forums).

 

Did y'all broadcast messages saying to keep submitting the Field Day event over and over on the theory that eventually a few of them might slip through and get approved?

 

Please try to remember that the approvers are volunteers and every time we spend ten minutes to archive a cache is ten minutes taken away from approving another cache, or actually going out and finding one.

 

--------------------

Saving the day and approving all the caches... before bedtime!

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Maybe the persistance is due to disagreement with the new Event Cache policy, combined with the lack of publication of the policy. I agree that resubmitting a denied cache without changes seems a bit pointless, but everyone has their own approach to try and state their disagreement with the policy.

 

I would hope that all the various feedback might encourage the policymakers to reconsider their 3-month-old decision.

 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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quote:
Originally posted by El Oso - N5CTI:

Maybe the persistance is due to disagreement with the new Event Cache policy, combined with the lack of publication of the policy. I agree that resubmitting a denied cache without changes seems a bit pointless, but everyone has their own approach to try and state their disagreement with the policy.

 

I would hope that all the various feedback might encourage the policymakers to reconsider their 3-month-old decision.


While the admin's disscusion on Field Day caches might be 3 months old, this is NOT something new or unpublished. A quick, 10 second search of the forums turned up this post back in 2001 by the man who makes the rules around here:

 

quote:
Event Caches:

 

1. Cannot be some kind of fund raiser or existing event where you want geocachers to attend, regardless of whether it is free or not.

 

2. It has to be exclusive to geocachers. The intent of Event caches were to allow times and places to meet and chat about geocaching (and place faces to names).

 

I want to keep this game open, but I also don't want to have total anarchy.


 

I think that 2yr old post (along with the other 5 pages of topics I turned up) pretty much rules out a field day event, a garage sale, or an amway seminar

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Hmmmm.... with that rule, I will not be applying for an event cache for the next Texas Parks and Wildlife Division Outdoor Expo I guess. Shame too, cause the event last October brought in about 10 new geocachers.

 

BUT... the event is definately NOT exclusive to geocachers. There are Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Mountain Rescue, The Local Indians, Game Warden... the event is about the state parks system.

 

What a shame. But on the good side, it saves me the expense of building a cache and doing all the work. Guess I can hike that weekend.

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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My point remains, and probably expands, Mopar. The more I consider the policy, the more it seems counter-productive to me. Witness Mike's feedback above.

 

Just because "that's the way it is," doesn't mean "that's the way it's always gonna be." I've always been considered a troublemaker^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^Dagent for change. icon_smile.gif

 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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This is Dick, W7WT that had PSE QSL approved. I very seldom look at the forums. Didn't realize that mine was the only one approved. Had I known earlier I would have archived it myself. Too late for that now. The caches have been approved and a lot of ham-geocachers have printed out the pages and made plans. One geocacher is using it to celebrate his 300th. find. I have had so many virtuals disapproved that I was supprised when this was approved. Sure won't be doing it next year. I am 78 years old and have been a very active ham since the end of WWII. I sure never ask or wanted any special treatment. Sorry, I didn't know about this earlier. Dick, W7WT

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It's not your fault, Dick. Don't sweat it, 'cause no one's upset with you over this.

 

73,

 

-----

~ Boyd

N5CTI

 

"Never ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell ya soon enough. If he ain't, don't embarrass him."

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quote:
Originally posted by w7wt:

Sorry, I didn't know about this earlier. Dick, W7WT


 

It is not your fault Dick, it is you LUCK!

 

I don't think... no, I am sure no one here is blaming YOU for the inconsistancy. But that rule pretty well kills ANY event cache if ANYTHING ELSE is going on at the same time.

 

I will not be running a cache for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Expo 2003, although I may make geocaching info available. Too bad - it is so much more fun when you are talking to prospective NEW cachers, and veteran cachers show up and do the cache. In 2002, we got at least 10 people who wanted to run right out and get a GPS. Two came back the next day and had already got a GPS and got on this site.

 

What a shame!

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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Am I the only one who sees a significant difference between the two caches posted in the first message in this thread?

 

The cache description for PSE QSL indicates that a Geocache will be hidden at the event. Show up at the event, get the coordinates for the cache, and go find the cache. Thus there's a cache to be found, but because it will only be hidden for a short while, it's an "event cache".

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=gcg8rh

 

W4RMT on the other hand appears to be a HAM radio field day that has nothing Geocaching related about it (other than the listing on Geocaching.com).

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=75660

 

Please correct me if I missed something, but this seems like a very significant difference.

 

ICQ: 5563417

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quote:
Originally posted by smillersmiller:

Am I the only one who sees a significant difference between the two caches posted in the first message in this thread?


 

Nope. You're right, there is a big difference.

I think W7WT's cache will be a great way for more people to learn about geocaching. I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

I plan on stopping in to do his cache, and I won't feel one bit guilty logging it as a find... assuming I find it.

 

Insert pretentious quote or saying here.

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Well, PSE QSL has joined the rest of the archived field day events. I went out today and replaced and moved the cache that was burned in the grass fire and changed the cooridinates on all my QSL cards. I was already to go. I am going to leave the caches there tomorrow for those that want to stop by and look "Just for the Hell of it." All hams are still welcome to drop by and operate the six meter station. Wish now they had archived it in the beginning. 73 Dick

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Hmmm... your post isn't real clear. Did you have a fire destroy the cache?

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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Desert_Warrior, no, his cache(s) still stand, including PSE QSL. You just can't log your visit here.

 

I'd say that anyone who is reading this and was planning to visit PSE QSL, to go ahead and do it anyway. It will still be there.

 

73, Maria

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I know people think of the Pacific Northwest as a very wet place. During the summer months we have very little rain and the grass gets very dry. They mowed the site of about 8 inch grass and let it lie on the ground. Evidently fireworks caught it on fire and it burned up in a pile of old logs and stumps but didn't set them on fire. It melted the top of the coffee can and the plastic holding the Geocache statement around it. Didn't hurt the pencil or log that were the only things in it. It is only open for special occasions just a few times a year. It is County property. Sure didn't expect the activity it stirred up when I applied for the approval. Life must go on and I am still looking for Kilroy. Dick, W7WT

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quote:
Originally posted by djs_111:

I wonder how http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=76606 fits into the whole event caches must be for cachers only rule?

 

N6DJS


Dan, after seeing your archive note and the above post, all I can of is if you can't possible be bright to have passed the written without cheating. I find the behavior of you and some other fellow hams the last few days totally embarrassing. The whining and complaining already caused the archiving of the PSE event. Must you continue on until the owner of this website decides this "non-geocaching related" forum is more headache then it's worth and removes it as well?

 

The event you posted an archive note to is a pure geocaching event. The focus is geocaching. It's about exposing a group of people (VW owners) to geocaching. From the event website:

quote:
Imagine going on an all-day, adult-sized treasure hunt with your Volkswagen as you explore exciting Seattle sites with a GPS (Global positioning System) receiver.

Volkswagen is inviting a select few owners to experience the latest craze in outdoor adventure-geocaching (www.geocaching.com).


Compare that to a field day event, which is an event promoting ham radio. I find it impossible to believe that someone smart enough to get a ham ticket can't see the difference. If you really insist on arguing that the VW event should be archived, I suggest first reading this current thread on the subject. Pay close attention to the comments made by the owner if this website, and remember geocaching.com, like 99% of the other websites in the world, is privately owned. The guy who owns the website gets to set the rules. If you feel you can't play by those rules, you are more then welcome to go start your own website, with your own rules to play by. That's the great thing about the internet. Nobody is forced to visit a website they don't like, and nobody can force the owner to post something he doesn't want to.

 

N2GZG

 

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

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Wow! I've been caching for a over a year now and only posting to the forums for about a month or so...I think that I'll stick to just caching. I figured that these boards were for the exchange of personal ideas not personal attacks...boy was I wrong!

 

quote:
you can't possible be bright to have passed the written without cheating.

Mopar,

FYI:

I didn't need to cheat to get my Tech license or the current CSCE that I hold for the General written test.I passed with the help of Gordon West just like many other ham/geocachers.

 

quote:
Must you continue on until the owner of this website decides this "non-geocaching related" forum is more headache then it's worth and removes it as well?

 

I doubt Jeremy will do that, but if he does I'm sure you can find some other group to p*ss off!

 

N6DJS

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Special Events:

 

I would like to suggest that those that have the powers that be, consider re-evaluating what a Special Event is? It appears that rules are being made up as time progresses.

 

In the mean time, I think I will hold a Geocaching event in my area, and there will be only one rule! Arriving Geocacher must present a wallet sized copy of their Amateur Radio License in order to receive cache placement information at the site. I might even consider contacting one of the Amateur Radio Dealers in the area and have them sponsor the event as well.

 

BTW, I don't drive a VW either, but I'm sure that arriving in my Old Dirty Brown Dodge Van would exclude me from a VW Special Event. Wasn't there something said in the cache description stating that you had to be a VW owner?

 

How about starting a WSGA Charter in your area where only Amatuer Radio Operators are allowed to be members? Are there rules against that?

 

If a geocaching activity is sponsored by a company, such as a VW Dealer or a Ham Radio Dealer, would that make it a Commercial Event, especially if products were on display?

 

Where do you draw the line?

What percentage of an activity has to be geocaching related and what percentage not?

 

If you're an Amateur Radio Operator, speak up. If you're not, don't speak of thing about which you have no knowledge.

 

In closing, keep your comments public, for I don't wish to receive offensive E-Mail on this subject. That goes double for the Big "J" and a self-appointed Overseer/Basson player.

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I notice that only two geocachers claimed finds on that archived page. How many actually attended the event, and how many attendees were there in total? That little "post-mortem" should give us a good idea of precisely how "geocaching related" the event was.

 

I don't care whether you liked the e-mail I had sent you privately, (in order to save you embarrassment.) You had claimed a find on the archived event cache prior to attending it. You responded with a stream of e-mails of ever-increasing childishness ... the last one in all capital letters. Because you have whined about that e-mail both on the cache page and here, I am quoting the entire text of that e-mail for anyone interested. (though I doubt anyone will be.)

 

<Greetings,

 

I noticed the find you claimed on an archived/approved in error event cache.

 

I take no position on whether the cache should have been approved or not, but it is undoubtedly wrong to log a find for a cache one has not yet found ... or an event one has not yet attended.

 

Of course, if you had claimed the find after having attended the event, I would have supported your find.

 

BassoonPilot>

 

I suggest one shouldn't complain about rules if one can't abide by the most basic of them.

 

[This message was edited by BassoonPilot on June 29, 2003 at 05:15 AM.]

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Temper temper young man. Excuse Me, Old Man! I think you're loosing it. Why are you making a mountain out of a mole hill anyway. You said your piece, I said mine, I decided I had had enough of your comments and I told you not to bother me with furthor communication. But no, you just had to go to the actual cache page and make a bigger issue of it and get in the last word, didn't you? Now, get real put down your blocks and go away like a good little boy. You started this BS, now end it!

 

The cache page:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=73985

 

I refuse to say anything more to or about, so *assoon*ilot can have his last word.

 

Dick, if you continue looking for Kilroy, then I'll be looking for his pot of gold, if he's a Leprachaun.

 

[This message was edited by Fledermaus on June 29, 2003 at 08:58 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by Fledermaus on June 29, 2003 at 07:16 PM.]

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How about this!

Create your cache page, as you would normally do, without refernce to any special event, as if it was in the bushes or somewhere else, and submit it. Then, when your special event is done and overwith, just archive it yourself! Don't mention anything about limited time or other unrelated activities.

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quote:
Originally posted by Fledermaus:

Temper temper young man. I think you're loosing it. Why are you making a mountain out of a mole hill anyway.


 

First of all, I am not a young man.

 

Secondly, you are thoroughly lacking in any qualities that would make me loose my temper.

 

Thirdly, you raised the issue on the cache page, to which I made a reply that was accurate.

 

Fourthly, you have made it abundently clear that you would rather cheat than play by the established rules. That brings your other 299 finds, and any cache placements you have, under a cloud of suspicion, as well.

 

Lastly, you have again clearly demonstrated your total lack of maturity and decorum. You must be very proud of yourself.

 

I am certainly enjoying the laugh I am having at your expense.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

Fourthly, you have made it abundently clear that you would rather cheat than play by the established rules. That brings your other 299 finds, and any cache placements you have, under a cloud of suspicion, as well.

 


 

Well, I was going to try to stay out of this completely, but I can't let that go without comment.

 

I've been caching since February, I have 67 finds of which 20 have been cahces Fledermaus has hidden. I still have about 30 of his to find. He's done A LOT for this game in the area we live in, and deserves better than that comment.

 

Secondly, while I can't vouche for 296 of his claims, he has signed the log in the four of mine that he has claimed.

 

For some reason this has become a very emotional issue for everyone.

 

Step back for a second, everyone. It's just a game. It's just a game. icon_smile.gif

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Will someone, in the name of common sence, terminate this discussion? It's getting out of control!

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quote:
Originally posted by Bull Moose:

 

I've been caching since February, I have 67 finds of which 20 have been cahces Fledermaus has hidden. I still have about 30 of his to find. He's done A LOT for this game in the area we live in, and deserves better than that comment.


 

No, he doesn't. All one needs to do is go back 4 posts and read Fledermaus's suggestion (you know, the one about fraudulently submitting a temporary cache as something else) to learn all one needs to know about Fledermaus's integrity and willingness to abide by established rules.

 

It's perfectly clear.

 

Common sense dictates that such a person cannot be trusted.

 

quote:
For some reason this has become a very emotional issue for everyone.

Only for those so immature that they resort to the type of name calling demonstrated 5 posts above.

 

I agree, Bull Moose; it's just a game. But I think the manner in which we play games reveals a great deal about us as people, as well.

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quote:
Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

 

No, he doesn't. All one needs to do is go back 4 posts and read Fledermaus's suggestion (you know, the one about fraudulently submitting a temporary cache as something else) to learn all one needs to know about Fledermaus's integrity and willingness to abide by established rules.


 

Uh.. If you didn't recognize that suggestion for what it was, an illustration of what would happen, in the opinion of Fledermaus, if the rules aren't more flexible, you need to put on a shirt over your wife-beater t-shirt and get out of "NYC Metro" - New Jersey - for awhile. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

And in any case, I'll take a cacher who has 1 hide for every 6 finds over one who has taken 933 caches and given back 17 - all of which have been archived, save one - and 2018 posts into the forum.

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I had a great time finding both of W7WT's caches (PSE) even though they were archived.

I quit "counting smilies" as I am in this just for the fun and adventure. We should be fortunate that certain individuals dedicate their time and resources for making Geocaching for what it has evolved into...I remember everybody starting out just typing words in plain black and white...now we have full blown HTML colored cache pages that contain a variety of hyperlinks. Unfortunately, as progressive we all have become to making Geocaching for what it is today, we will invaribly encounter more problems along the way...Let us remember that there is strength in unity. I helped W7WT set up his 6 meter station and oriented various antennae azimuths by way of GPS. I want to thank W7WT for inviting me out for the cache event as I would not have even given it a thought to bring my GPS...I found it very useful...in any event.

By the way: the very first satellite put into orbit using GPS technology was by the Amateur Radio Relay League for locating individuals, equipment and specific location. This was called Amateur Positioning Emergency Radio System and is used still to this day. I want to thank all those who have participated together for keeping up the website...

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I'm new to this geocaching thing and you, Mr Baffoonpilot, need to get real! Hold on tight, because someday someone will topple you off your pedestal. Get off peoples backs, pick up your marbles and go home. Don't you have better things to do than to insult people, no matter what they say? Is that your occupation? Must be either and unemployed brat or a retired old fart! My reply to you is BITE ME!

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quote:
Originally posted by IPFreely:

I'm new to this geocaching thing ...


 

HAHAHAHAHA ... That is absolutely the lamest, most insipid, most transparent sockpuppet I've ever seen. HAHAHAHAHA ...

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quote:
Originally posted by BaffoonPilot:

quote:
Originally posted by IPFreely:

I'm new to this geocaching thing ...


 

HAHAHAHAHA ... That is absolutely the lamest, most insipid, most transparent sockpuppet I've ever seen. HAHAHAHAHA ...


 

Whatever the hell that means! Speaking of socks, will somebody please tell this guy and all the others with their stupid remarks, to put a sock in it? Too many cry-babies

 

You sure know a lot of stuff! Why don't you become an Administrator to complete your well-rounded understanding of geocaching?

 

Okay, it's your turn to make an *** of yourself!

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I regret even mentioning this issue. My raising the issue destroyed the other event geocache. Geocahcing and ham radio are supposed to fun and enjoyment.

 

I screwed up and apologize to everyone involved!

 

There are more important issues to be discussed. Lets move on!

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