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Canoe or Kayak?


clarinetqueen

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...but overall kayaks are much easier to transport and use in my experience.

Absolutely. I would even say orders of magnitude easier.

I will be 50 in May. I have been paddling regularly since I was about 10. All but the last 10 years or so have been in canoes, Gheenoes & pirogues of many different lengths and price ranges. The learning curve for most kayaks, (gotta add the generalization disclaimer), is much shorter than the learning curve for most kayaks. Because most kayaks are so much more stable than most canoes, new paddlers get to focus on stroke technique sooner, rather than spending that time adjusting to the constant fear of tipping over.

 

Because of their basic shapes, most kayaks are much easier to transport than most canoes. The average recreational level paddle craft user transports their boat(s) on a roof rack. (I use a Yakima trailer, but used to use roof racks) The cross bars on most roof racks, (more pesky generalizations), are between 20 and 30 inches apart. With most canoes, the stretch of boat between 10 to 15 inches both directions from the midpoint have very little taper. Whereas with most kayaks, the taper is more pronounced. With straps across the boat at both cross bars, the pronounced taper of most kayaks keep the boat from slipping forward or backward. With most canoes, you almost have to use bow & stern tie downs to keep your boat from sliding. Another point toward transportation is where you put your gear. With most kayaks, they prefer to ride on the rack either bow down, if just resting on foam pads, on their sides with uprights, or at an angle, bow down, on J saddles. With this configuration, the paddler simply stows his/her gear inside the hull. But since most canoes prefer to ride inverted on roof racks, stowing your gear in the boat becomes problematic. Obviously, carrying it bow down somewhat solves that problem, but you still need to worry about your gear blowing out, or your boat filling up with water if it rains. There are tools available to canoeists to prevent these, but now you are adding more expense.

 

While I know generalizations cause their own host of problems, when discussing a beginner lever paddler, I think they are a good thing. Brian and I could hurl specifics at each other all day long, 'disproving' each other's claims, (like comparing my 18' Mohawk to my sister's 18' kevlar SINK), but that would only leave the beginner more confused than when they first arrived.

 

I would never transport a kayak or canoe loaded. I can''t imagine it being good for the boat and they are easy enough to load at the put in. A bow strap is certainly a necessity for a canoe at higher speeds, but it is not to keep it from sliding backwards or forward, a strap firmly secured across the center of the boat is enough to prevent that. The bow tie down is to prevent the canoe from weathervaning, which can be disastrous at high speeds. I only use rear tie downs for the canoe on long trips and it really isn't needed. Heck I don't even use the bow tie down if I'm going local and won't be topping 40mph.

 

BTW a bow tie down on a kayak is also a very good idea. If you want to have some fun go over to the paddling.net forums and ask whether or not you should use a bow tie down for your kayak. You'll spark a discussion that will make the "Should FTF hounds let others have a chance at FTFs?" look tame.

Edited by briansnat
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I've never thought about kayaks as being trendy. They are just much more stable and easier to haul than canoes.

 

More generalizations. A rec kayak will usually be extremely stable, as are SOT kayaks, but when you get into whitewater and touring kayaks, they are not always particularly stable. I remember my first try in a pure whitewater kayak and it wasn't pretty. I couldn't keep the thing upright and I had been using kayaks for years.

 

And even that is a generalization. Many modern whitewater kayaks are very hull. Whitewater kayaking has undergone quite an evolution over the past 20 years. Older WW kayaks were longer and had a rounder hull and were designed for going downriver (if you want to try a tippy boat, try paddling a downriver racing boat). Now a lot of ww kayaking is done using a style called "park-n-play" and the planing hulls designed to doing tricks on waves and mostly staying in the same area on the river are mostly flat and quite stable.

 

There are certainly lots of generalities about stability with touring kayaks. My home built Outer Island is 17' 10" and only 21" wide, but is much more stable than a 16' foot long Foster Rowe Rumour (one of the tippiest kayaks I've ever paddled). The initial stability on my Outer Island is probably less that many 17' entry level touring boats, but the secondary stability is outstanding.

 

 

And the great thing about canoes, no need to buy a special rack. Many kayaks, depending on the cockpit size and shape, don't ride particularly well on the roof without a rack. With canoes as long as the roof is wide enough you're set.

 

Foam "pads" can be purchased for both canoes and kayaks. The pads for a canoe just slip over the gunwales and straps (not rope) used to hold it firm to a bare roof. Add a bow and stern line and you can carry a canoe on most vehicles fairly safely. Foam pads with a "V" shaped indent can be used directly on a bare roof (with straps going through the passenger compartment) and with a bow and stern line you can safely transport a kayak a long distance. Be careful about tightening up bow and stern lines too much or you can dent your roof. Their only meant to keep the canoe/kayak from flying off the vehicle if the other straps fail and don't need to be tight. One other note about carrying a kayak/canoe with straps going through the passenger compartment. If it's raining the water will wick down the straps and eventually drop down onto both the driver and passengers shoulders. Oh, when running straps this way, make sure to open the doors before running the straps through the passenger compartment.

 

Lots of new SUV vehicles will come with roof racks but they're often not rated for heavier loads. I have a set of Yakima bars on my vehicle and just strap my canoe to it or use foam pads on the bars for my kayaks but the best option for carrying a kayak is to get racks specifically designed for holding a kayak (be prepared to spend a lot of money)

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I have a set of Yakima bars on my vehicle and just strap my canoe to it or use foam pads on the bars for my kayaks but the best option for carrying a kayak is to get racks specifically designed for holding a kayak (be prepared to spend a lot of money)

 

That's what Craigslist and REI's Garage Sale is for!

 

I picked up an open box Thule Glide & Set at an REI "garage sale" for $10 ($200 list). (since sold)

 

I picked up a set of used Yakima J hooks for $60 on craigslist ($150 new).

 

And I just bought a set of Thule J hooks ($150 new) and a Glide and Set (both used) for $60 total. And I plan on selling the Glide and Set, since I only need the two sets of J hooks, so the hooks I need will be basically free. If you know the retail prices for a set of new racks, and are willing to scour craigslist and get something used, there are bargains out there.

 

For when I need to move all four of my kayaks, I have my trailer. I bought it used for $100, and added a set of arms ($50 for wood and parts). I have since tacked on some indoor/outdoor carpet to each arm for some protection. (And yes, I strap them in when moving!)

 

e2dfa38d-aa21-4fb1-bb6b-728c022a77c0.jpg?rnd=0.9437939

 

The green one is my Old Town Vapor 10xt, the red & orange are Wilderness Systems Pamlicos, and the white one is a Pelican Pursuit.

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs
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I would never transport a kayak or canoe loaded. I can''t imagine it being good for the boat and they are easy enough to load at the put in.

It's easier for me to load everything at home.

Keeps me from forgetting things.

Just part of my routine.

I've hauled my boats loaded since I first started hauling them, and have not deformed a single boat. Maybe you're just hauling too much stuff? For a day of cache hunting, all my gear combined tips the scale at maybe 15 pounds? My heaviest item is probably my water.

 

A bow strap is certainly a necessity for a canoe at higher speeds, but it is not to keep it from sliding  backwards or forward,  a strap firmly secured across the center of the boat is enough to prevent that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I've seen too many canoes grinding themselves down the blacktop to believe they won't slide off when only one strap is used.

 

BTW a bow tie down on a kayak is also a very good idea.  If you want to have some fun go over to the  paddling.net forums and ask whether or not you should use a bow tie down for your kayak.  You'll spark a discussion that will make the  "Should FTF hounds let others have a chance at FTFs?" look tame.

There is no need. I've seen the same arguments on the SOT forums, and for the most part, I agree. A bowline offers a degree of insurance which, when compared to the cost of replacing a boat, is cheap. When I was using roof racks, I would use one for long hauls.

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Since were showing pictures...

 

8331196093_e980d843d9.jpg

OT. But is that a wooden kayak? Did you build it?

 

Yes, it's a strip built kayak built using western red cedar and clear white pine. I built from a set of plans and took me about five months. That picture was taken on the first day I launched it. It's called an Outer Island and Impex Kayaks now makes an Outer Island that is based on the design in a fiberglass or kevlar layup.

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Since were showing pictures...

 

8331196093_e980d843d9.jpg

OT. But is that a wooden kayak? Did you build it?

 

Yes, it's a strip built kayak built using western red cedar and clear white pine. I built from a set of plans and took me about five months. That picture was taken on the first day I launched it. It's called an Outer Island and Impex Kayaks now makes an Outer Island that is based on the design in a fiberglass or kevlar layup.

 

That's so nice I'd be afraid to use it.

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It's all in what you want/need.

 

We have two Emotion Glide Kayaks. They hang in our garage on the wall (can't remember the name of these hooks)

normal_IMG_0970.JPG

 

We have Yakima BowDown setup. With them on the vehicle in the 'down' position, the vehicle still fits in the garage and under the garage door. We also can tow the kayaks in the back of our pickup truck with a tye-down setup.

normal_IMG_0992.JPG

 

These Emotion Glide's are only 9' long, lightweight and easy to move around. Nice beginner/starter kayaks. We love ours!!

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Its all in what you want/need.

 

Exactly. I'm not saying canoes are better, but a canoe was better for about 80 percent of what I wanted a human powered boat for which is why I chose a canoe. Your mileage will probably vary.

 

But there was a lot of misinformation about canoes here and it's the same sort of misinformation I see in a lot of other places. Too often it comes from someone whose only experience with a canoe was 15-25 years ago with an ungainly Grumman or a crappy, Pelican or Coleman canoe or perhaps an unwisely selected canoe.

 

Canoes are hard to turn? Some are and some aren't, and the same goes for kayaks.

put that misconception completely to rest.

 

Canoes are heavy? I doubt a lot of kayaks can beat the 12 lbs of a Hornbeck 8 canoe and when you compare apples to apples (i.e. solo canoe vs solo kayak and tandem canoe vs. tandem kayak), the weights are usually in the same ballpark.

 

Canoes are unstable? Some are and some aren't, the same as some kayaks are stable and some aren't

 

Canoes are slow? A Weno-Nah-Nah Sundowner, or Jensen, or a Nova Craft Cronjie or nearly any tripping canoe in the hands of competent paddlers will leave most rec kayakers in the dust (or shall I say wake?).

 

Canoes are hard to transport? The thousands of people you see every spring and summer weekend driving with a canoe or two on their roofs on the Adirondack Northway and practically every highway in Maine may beg to differ.

 

Find kayak seating preferable? Adirondack pack canoes use kayak style seating.

 

Prefer a double paddle to a single blade? So do many canoers. No law says you can't use one in a canoe.

 

When I was buying a boat and could only afford one, my priorities were camping, fishing and river travel up to Class II and I felt a canoe was the best choice for all of that. Someone with different priorities may find a kayak to be the better choice. I'm sure if I frequently paddled the ocean, bays, large lakes and whitewater I probably would have selected a kayak. In fact my wife and I have been considering buying a pair of kayaks for a few years and I've been researching kayaks for some time. I have a few in mind and the next time we have a little extra disposable income we may well take the plunge.

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Canoes are hard to turn?

In general, (yeah, more generalities, I know), yes.

Canoes are heavy?

No, not really.

Canoes are unstable?

In general, (more pesky generalities), they are much more unstable.

Canoes are slow?

No, not really.

Canoes are hard to transport?

Only slightly more so than kayaks.

Find kayak seating preferable?

You could buy a canoe with kayak seating. Or, just buy a kayak.

Prefer a double paddle to a single blade?

Strictly a matter of preference. I have a single blade I carry with me for paddling mangrove tunnels and such.

Generalities are a good thing. They offer a starting point for someone with no experience wanting to jump into a hobby. None of the generalities I've mentioned are misinformation. Like the beliefs you continue to promote, they are based on a lengthy history with paddlecraft. If someone came to these forums looking for a paddlecraft that would haul two people, and carry a ton of gear, I would point them to one of the hybrid boats on the market. But for someone wanting a vessel for light, recreational paddling and cache hunting, (no need to carry 400 pounds of gear to hunt a film can stuck in a cypress), I will point them to a kayak. Because in general, (there's that word again), they are more stable, are easier to turn, have a shorter learning curve, and are easier to transport.

 

Yes, I know. You can set aside generalization and cite specifics disproving each of those points. I can also set aside generalization and counterpoint with specifics disproving each of your points. We could do this all day. But all we would accomplish is confusion.

Edited by Clan Riffster
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But there was a lot of misinformation about canoes here and it's the same sort of misinformation I see in a lot of other places. Too often it comes from someone whose only experience with a canoe was 15-25 years ago with an ungainly Grumman or a crappy, Pelican or Coleman canoe or perhaps an unwisely selected canoe.

 

This is from the guy who has never owned a kayak, and has mostly borrowed or rented canoes for 45 years? :D My Coleman Ram-X 15 was pretty advanced when I bought it in 1995, with its bright orange poly hull. It sure beat those aluminum Grummans I had always previously used for the 20 years before that. I sold it around 2005 to another cacher, and have heard a story or 2 of it being beaten on by others who borrowed it. :P But it really does not compare to any kayak. Kayaks really are so simple there is no learning curve, unless you are on whitewater rapids. Just get in and go. The newer advanced canoes look pretty awesome, but in the end it's still like comparing SUVs to cars. Yes, that 2012 BMW X-5 will leave the 1982 LTD in the dust, but overall most cars are more nimble and handle better than most SUVs.

 

I have never had any problems getting out of my kayaks quickly, never felt uncomfortable, am able to keep a small cooler in them, as well as accessing the rear storage area without getting out. They are without a doubt much easier to control. Although on most camping trips, I admit I would rather have a canoe. :)

 

I was also in Maine this past September and recall mostly seeing kayaks. It looks like I'll have to return next summer to take a closer look.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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I have never had any problems getting out of my kayaks quickly...

Careful. nthacker66 might volunteer you for membership in the Brian & Clan Club.

Membership perks include a bumper sticker that proclaims, "My boat's better than your boat!"

 

I'm in the "My boat's better for me than your boat is better for me!" club. I keep a really open mind regarding which kayak/canoe is "best" because everyone has their own needs and desires for their perfect paddle craft. One of the things that made that rec.boats.paddle usenet group entertaining was that it was a *paddling* newsgroup, and not a canoe or kayak group. It had a lively mix of canoeist, sea kayakers, casual kayakers, white water kayakers (and all it's variations), and even rafters. One other thing that was quite obvious was that there is no perfect boat. Most of the regulars owned quite a few (I had five at one point).

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As to canoe or kayak, this is my experience. I know of no 2 person kayak that can be handled by a single paddler. If you need a one/two person boat get a canoe. Also, canoes are way easier to get in or out of. A trailer is a really nice thing to have to move and store a boat, especially if you have any back damage. Also, wear a PFD, or Personal Flotation Device also known as a life jacket. My only credibility resides in that I own six boats.

 

Just a photo for your amusement:

 

52f56046-92d1-4b99-b34e-0ee1933b4cff.jpg?rnd=0.638054

Edited by JohnX
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I have never had any problems getting out of my kayaks quickly...

Careful. nthacker66 might volunteer you for membership in the Brian & Clan Club.

Membership perks include a bumper sticker that proclaims, "My boat's better than your boat!"

 

I don't need a stinking bumper sticker to proclaim that. I know it. When I see someone with a more expensive canoe or kayak than my Pungo 120, I laugh at them, as they obviously have paid too much. When I see someone using a cheaper model, I laugh at them for them being inferior. The design of the Pungo 120 transcends both space and time. It is more than a work of art, it IS art. It is simply a perfect craft. The flowing lines, coupled with the sleek body, along with the ability to navigate quickly and nimbly in most any waters makes it a design of pure excellence. When I met my girlfriend, she too, had a Pungo 120. At that instant I knew that we were not just perfect for each other, but just plain perfect. If she had been using another boat, well, things may have been a little different.. If we ever have a child, naming would be easy. If it was a boy, he would be called Pungo. A girl, Pungo, but with a different pronunciation, with the male having more of an emphasis on the first syllable I suppose. When I bought my first Jeep Wrangler in the late 80s, I noticed there was a camaraderie of other Jeep owners giving each other the Jeep wave. With the Pungo 120 it is more subtle. There doesn't need to be any openly obvious acknowledgment, just a slight nod and smile tells the tale. It's simply the Pungo 120 nod. An honor bestowed upon those paddlers with the superior intelligence, taste, class, and objectivity. Simply seeing a Pungo 120 restores my faith in a higher being, knowing that there is perfectness and intentional design somewhere in the world, as a direct result of a more intelligent deity. Gazing at the stars sometimes I feel tiny inferior, but then I remember my Pungo 120, I feel much more important. Eventually I reckon, someone will update the antiquated constellations in the sky to be redrawn to include Pungo 120s. Sagittarius should not be a half man-horse shooting arrows, but rather someone in a Pungo 120 carrying a GPS. Leo would be a large cat riding comfortably on the bow of a Pungo 120. Two Pungo 120s circling each other in harmony would be Pisces. Aquarius would be of course, a woman bailing out a canoe. If the entire planet was renamed Pungo 120, it would symbolize the challenges presented and overcame by all living creatures on earth, and there would be a unique harmonious resonance causing everyone to live together peacefully. Although if everyone owned a Pungo 120, life would be rather boring. It is free will which allows us to choose other brands, obviously to provide contrast to the ones with a Pungo 120. When I feel distraught, do I turn to alcohol or drugs? No, I pull out a picture of my Pungo 120 and instantly feel at ease. And soon I will be returning my inferior Old Town Dirigo 106 to L.L. Bean and trading up for another Pungo 120, so I can have one to tie together to use as a catamaran on the open seas, to carry on the car at all times in case of emergencies, or to simply mount on a tree in the front yard. This will also provide me with the ability to have matching tattoos on both arms, both being different Pungo 120s, of course, to compliment the large Pungo 120 mural on my back. People who use canoes, I refer to as the "Brians" of the world. Although smart and practical, they simply are not perfect people like the Pungos. I suppose there is a divine reason behind this, but one that I am unable to fathom. I actually am hesitant to encourage someone to purchase a Pungo 120, because then it could possibly result in an imperfect person to be incorrectly identified as perfect, simply by owning one. Sheer elegance in its simplicity, coupled with divine meaning, is what describes a Pungo 120.

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I highly recommend you join a paddling club and get advice from those folks as well. There is a lot to consider and you may end up wanting more than one kind of boat. Lots to choose from in purpose skill lake or river, camping or not, weight, how often you use it, how to transport. Get involved with folks that do it -they will let you try their boats while out and you can see what they are like.

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