+Roman! Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs No matter whether you solve a puzzle the easy way or the hard way, you solved it. Same goes for whether you solved it the way the CO intended or some other way. So is asking a friend for the coordinates solving the puzzle? I'd say yes because the point of any puzzle to to find the coordinates which I did, after all I had to find someone who knew them. I'm actually a bit surprised at the responses as I really thought there would be more "purist" like remarks about how anything but solving the puzzle yourself is cheating. Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs No matter whether you solve a puzzle the easy way or the hard way, you solved it. Same goes for whether you solved it the way the CO intended or some other way. So is asking a friend for the coordinates solving the puzzle? I'd say yes because the point of any puzzle to to find the coordinates which I did, after all I had to find someone who knew them. I'm actually a bit surprised at the responses as I really thought there would be more "purist" like remarks about how anything but solving the puzzle yourself is cheating. There's that "purist" match to the thread kindling... Hide, find, sign log, log online. Maybe this lightbulb moment belongs in the "What the game once was" thread. The game has come along far enough now that, if you put pen to paper on a logbook, a find is a find and will be "enforced" that way. There are different strokes for different folks, and assuredly some might be disappointed that you didn't come to a solution or final cache location in the method they intended. But, in the end, a find is a find is a find, and most owners, I think, understand this when it all comes down to it. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs No matter whether you solve a puzzle the easy way or the hard way, you solved it. Same goes for whether you solved it the way the CO intended or some other way. So is asking a friend for the coordinates solving the puzzle? I'd say yes because the point of any puzzle to to find the coordinates which I did, after all I had to find someone who knew them. It doesn't sound to me like you understand the point of creating a puzzle at all. I tried several times to come up with an adequate response to this, but either it's a troll or you actually believe this. Either way, It's pretty sad. Quote Link to comment
+Roman! Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs No matter whether you solve a puzzle the easy way or the hard way, you solved it. Same goes for whether you solved it the way the CO intended or some other way. So is asking a friend for the coordinates solving the puzzle? I'd say yes because the point of any puzzle to to find the coordinates which I did, after all I had to find someone who knew them. I'm actually a bit surprised at the responses as I really thought there would be more "purist" like remarks about how anything but solving the puzzle yourself is cheating. There's that "purist" match to the thread kindling... Hide, find, sign log, log online. Maybe this lightbulb moment belongs in the "What the game once was" thread. The game has come along far enough now that, if you put pen to paper on a logbook, a find is a find and will be "enforced" that way. There are different strokes for different folks, and assuredly some might be disappointed that you didn't come to a solution or final cache location in the method they intended. But, in the end, a find is a find is a find, and most owners, I think, understand this when it all comes down to it. I'm starting to think you're stalking me. Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'm actually a bit surprised at the responses as I really thought there would be more "purist" like remarks about how anything but solving the puzzle yourself is cheating.Sure, it's cheating: You're cheating yourself out of the "Aha!" moment that comes from solving the puzzle yourself. I can't see why anyone else would care about that though. (Better?) Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 There is a puzzle cache called Five Star New York , it is about 8 years old , it sits in a city of 8 million people, it is found by about 6 people per year and is almost always solved by people working in concert. The beauty of the cache is its intertwined disciplines and in the collaborative effort put into solving. Although I have never met Pelagori, my collaborator on Five Star, I have a fond memory of our collaboration and have no problem with group effort on any cache. Sometimes I think we tend to be too anal in our application of "rules" and forget the more important social element of our game. The people we cache with and share experiences with re far more important than the tech ism of logging protocol. Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs No matter whether you solve a puzzle the easy way or the hard way, you solved it. Same goes for whether you solved it the way the CO intended or some other way. So is asking a friend for the coordinates solving the puzzle? I'd say yes because the point of any puzzle to to find the coordinates which I did, after all I had to find someone who knew them. It doesn't sound to me like you understand the point of creating a puzzle at all. I tried several times to come up with an adequate response to this, but either it's a troll or you actually believe this. Either way, It's pretty sad. I've had a couple puzzles I've made that I put a lot of thought and work into. It was a bummer to hear when others rode the coattails of a friend for a solve/find. But, really, I was more happy that the cache was visited and someone enjoyed the process at all. My most beloved puzzle was adopted when I moved from Oregon, and I still check in from time to time. But, if someone wants to find it the way Roman! describes above, so be it. I can't say that it makes my boat float, however. If someone "gives" coordinates outright for a puzzle, that's a tad lame, IMO. If they happen to be along on a cache outing and find is made, that's a little different. Don't know why my gut tells me that, but it does. Hmmm... Quote Link to comment
+The_Incredibles_ Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've solved difficult puzzles by looking for coordinates in the exif data of photos. I regularly get extra 'hints' by reading past logs or by emailing the CO or other cachers. I've also found puzzles simply by finding a spot that had nothing and doing a search of the obvious places. No matter how I found it, if I sign the logbook, I will log the find online. My opinions: Cheating 1) Finding the coords in photos people have posted. (I think it's cheating but I do it anyway, LOL) 2) Tagging along with someone who solved the puzzle or sharing coords with friends. Not Cheating 1) Using 'hints' in past logs to solve the puzzle 2) Finding a cache by accident or by seeing an empty spot on the map and searching 3) Getting extra hints from the cache owner or other cachers Bordline Cheating 1) Needing very specific step-by-step instructions to solve the puzzle. Quote Link to comment
+GrievousAngel Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I've been on group hunts where one or more members of the group had solved the puzzle, but I didn't. I signed the log but logged a note. If I ever solved the puzzles on my own I would consider changing the note to a find. +1 Quote Link to comment
+GrievousAngel Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 If someone "gives" coordinates outright for a puzzle, that's a tad lame, IMO. +1 Quote Link to comment
cezanne Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache? If I can't personally sign the logbook, I wouldn't. But, thinking about caches back in MN like some of EskoClimber's, I'd be really, really ashamed if I didn't do the work myself! I always find it quite strange that so many cachers make a difference between solving puzzles themselves and performing climbing and other physical tasks themselves. In my opinion, climbing up trees does not belong any more to the core of geocaching than solving puzzles. If your point is to sign the log book personally, that's of course possible also if you do not climb up a tree yourself. (The log book can be handed over to you.) Moreover, many cachers just use stamps or stickers anyway. Personally, I neither log found it logs for puzzles I have not solved myself nor for caches I could not reach on my own, but I'm not asking anyone else to do the same. It's my own way of dealing with it. Most of the time the question does not arise anyway as I'm caching alone most of the time. There are caches, however, that I visited with a friend and where I even signed the paper log book as my friend handed me over the cache which I could not reach on my own (I knew that before and still decided to visit the cache). In those cases I logged a note because the task was unmanageable for me. That's the key point for me. If someone happens to find a cache before me, it is typically just a matter of time and not of lacking potential on my side. What really makes me angry are cachers that have no issue with logging finds for puzzle caches where others have solved the puzzle, but who complain about those who are logging finds for tree climbing caches without having climbed up themselves. Cezanne Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache? If I can't personally sign the logbook, I wouldn't. But, thinking about caches back in MN like some of EskoClimber's, I'd be really, really ashamed if I didn't do the work myself! I always find it quite strange that so many cachers make a difference between solving puzzles themselves and performing climbing and other physical tasks themselves. In my opinion, climbing up trees does not belong any more to the core of geocaching than solving puzzles. If your point is to sign the log book personally, that's of course possible also if you do not climb up a tree yourself. (The log book can be handed over to you.) Moreover, many cachers just use stamps or stickers anyway. Personally, I neither log found it logs for puzzles I have not solved myself nor for caches I could not reach on my own, but I'm not asking anyone else to do the same. It's my own way of dealing with it. Most of the time the question does not arise anyway as I'm caching alone most of the time. There are caches, however, that I visited with a friend and where I even signed the paper log book as my friend handed me over the cache which I could not reach on my own (I knew that before and still decided to visit the cache). In those cases I logged a note because the task was unmanageable for me. That's the key point for me. If someone happens to find a cache before me, it is typically just a matter of time and not of lacking potential on my side. What really makes me angry are cachers that have no issue with logging finds for puzzle caches where others have solved the puzzle, but who complain about those who are logging finds for tree climbing caches without having climbed up themselves. Cezanne Well, to be clear, this was a personal shout out about some crazy caches. In addition, to clarify, I'd always much rather solve or complete a physical challenge on my own. But, there are always exceptions, so I don't call it a rule. Not unlike the presence of guidelines for geocaching in general, I have some guidelines I abide by personally. I think the key in this whole discussion is the common thread. That thread really is that we all have preferences, and we all cache in our own ways. Things may influence our decisions daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, or even from one cache to the next 2 minutes later. We can all go 'round and 'round on this, certainly. But personally, I like to celebrate that we share what we think, but I clap harder when we all accept opinions that still meet the guidelines of the game we all play. Quote Link to comment
cezanne Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) Well, to be clear, this was a personal shout out about some crazy caches. In addition, to clarify, I'd always much rather solve or complete a physical challenge on my own. But, there are always exceptions, so I don't call it a rule. Not unlike the presence of guidelines for geocaching in general, I have some guidelines I abide by personally. Actually, your posting just reminded me of my observation about the different attitude towards puzzles and physical challenges that many cachers have and thus provoked my reply. What I wrote was not specifically directed to you and I do not know you and your approach to caching. To clarify I do not have a problem with someone who logs finds for puzzle caches where the puzzle has been solved by someone else, but does not log finds for tree climbing caches without doing the climb. I just think that it is unfair and inconsistent to defend logging puzzle caches without solving them and complaining about cachers who log climbing caches without having done the climb. Cezanne Edited December 5, 2012 by cezanne Quote Link to comment
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