I'm puzzled by puzzling puzzles and its multiplied by multiple multis.

[+Roman!]

I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs, I've been with a CO who solved a puzzle when making the find, I've been given step by step hints to solve a puzzle, I've been given final coordinates, I've accidentally found puzzle and multi finals and I have logged them all.

 

Question is where do you draw the line? What would you log?

[+Shaved Ewok]

I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs, I've been with a CO who solved a puzzle when making the find, I've been given step by step hints to solve a puzzle, I've been given final coordinates, I've accidentally found puzzle and multi finals and I have logged them all.

 

Question is where do you draw the line? What would you log?

 

My feeling is that if you signed the log you are to count it as a find. That being said I know others feel differently. Around my area we have a cacher who loves to hide puzzle caches, but will delete your log if you find the cache any way other than solving the puzzle. I know he upset several local Cachers who found one of his finals while searching for temp caches at an event. I understand where he is coming from so it did not bother me that much. Plus, since I have the final coordinates I was able to attack the puzzle from a different direction and figure out how it works.

[+Roman!]

I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs, I've been with a CO who solved a puzzle when making the find, I've been given step by step hints to solve a puzzle, I've been given final coordinates, I've accidentally found puzzle and multi finals and I have logged them all.

 

Question is where do you draw the line? What would you log?

 

My feeling is that if you signed the log you are to count it as a find. That being said I know others feel differently. Around my area we have a cacher who loves to hide puzzle caches, but will delete your log if you find the cache any way other than solving the puzzle. I know he upset several local Cachers who found one of his finals while searching for temp caches at an event. I understand where he is coming from so it did not bother me that much. Plus, since I have the final coordinates I was able to attack the puzzle from a different direction and figure out how it works.

 

That's my belief too, they could have contacted GS because no matter how much he protests he had no right to delete their logs.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Roman!

[+briansnat]

I've been on group hunts where one or more members of the group had solved the puzzle, but I didn't. I signed the log but logged a note. If I ever solved the puzzles on my own I would consider changing the note to a find.

Edited December 4, 2012 by briansnat

[+kunarion]

where do you draw the line? What would you log?

I solved a Multi when a stage was missing. The whole place was gone, and that would have been wasted time if I hadn't been able to continue. The Cache Owner didn't know there was a problem (not very attentive), and it was archived after I found it, due to a stage being missing. I signed the log. The final was full of very large hornets.

 

There's a Bonus Cache around here that can only be found if you visit several caches throughout the state, to collect partial coordinates. The handwritten-by-a-Sharpie coords were changed when the Bonus was moved, and I'm not certain which coords are right, which are obsolete. I think the Bonus may be in a suspicious hole in an otherwise cache-saturated park nearby, and if I deduce where that cache is, I will log that find.

 

But when there's a cache that's got a lot of stages for no reason, or a bad puzzle, or if I just plain can't figure it out, it goes to the bottom of the stack. If I'm not interested, I don't even bother. There's a backlog of many other caches to go find.

Edited December 4, 2012 by kunarion

[+lamoracke]

To each their own, but for me, its just for fun.

 

I have about what, 1500 unknowns, course many of those are challenges or not really puzzles, but either way, have a lot. Most I have solved on my own and found on my own but certainly not all.

 

I would log

- solved it, but friend found it first on site. Log it.

- we worked on the puzzle, I contributed little (on this one) and then found it. Log it.

- never solved it but my caching partner solved it and wanted to do it while we were caching together. Log it.

- had to be told how to solve the puzzle AND then had to PAF to find the cache by same person. Log it.

- yada yada yada

 

For me, I want to know how to solve the puzzle and that way I can appreciate it, but it does not mean I have to solve the entire thing.

 

As a puzzle owner, I would prefer one solves it or at least tries or know how its solved, but answers are shared by friends, or friends work together, and PAFs happen. I do not care, they signed it, they found it.

 

I answered on puzzles only, but multis my end result would be similar.

Edited December 4, 2012 by lamoracke

[+Roman!]

I've been on group hunts where one or more members of the group had solved the puzzle, but I didn't. I signed the log but logged a note. If I ever solved the puzzles on my own I would consider changing the note to a find.

 

If you couldn't solve the puzzle would you ask for help? If so where do you draw the line at the amount of help?

 

Apart from finding every cache on your own without any external help apart from the description, title, attributes and hint its just different levels of 100% help.

[+Roman!]

To each their own, but for me, its just for fun.

 

I have about what, 1500 unknowns, course many of those are challenges or not really puzzles, but either way, have a lot. Most I have solved on my own and found on my own but certainly not all.

 

I would log

- solved it, but friend found it first on site. Log it.

- we worked on the puzzle, I contributed little (on this one) and then found it. Log it.

- never solved it but my caching partner solved it and wanted to do it while we were caching together. Log it.

- had to be told how to solve the puzzle AND then had to PAF to find the cache by same person. Log it.

- yada yada yada

 

For me, I want to know how to solve the puzzle and that way I can appreciate it, but it does not mean I have to solve the entire thing.

 

As a puzzle owner, I would prefer one solves it or at least tries or know how its solved, but answers are shared by friends, or friends work together, and PAFs happen. I do not care, they signed it, they found it.

 

I answered on puzzles only, but multis my end result would be similar.

 

I'm not a puzzle liking type of guy, I give them 5-10 minutes and if I cant solve it I pack in but if I ever ave a chance to find one using alternative methods I will knowing I gave it a go.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Roman!

[+dprovan]

I'm normally the puzzle solver when I'm caching with others, so I never had to face this issue. But I imagined I'd sign the log and then go solve the puzzle before claiming the find. That was before I participated in the Venona Activities last year. The Venona puzzles are incredibly hard. Only one or two would I ever have solved on my own, perhaps half I could solve myself once I saw the solution worked out in front of me, and some I couldn't even follow how they were solved. Yet each find is a gang event where a bunch of people, most as clueless about the puzzle, go find the cache. In fact, the Venona rules encourage people who can't help solving the puzzle to "make up for it" by participating in the find. In any case, each find involve 20 people with less than a handful that had anything to do with solving the puzzle. No one hesitates to claim the find.

 

Now Venona puzzles are a different thing, but it made me decide that, for me, finding a puzzle with a group is a find for all, regardless of how many, if any, actually solved the puzzle. I understand people that don't claim a find until they solve, and I'll probably try to solve just because I like puzzles, but I'm not going to hesitate to claim the find myself if it ever comes up.

[+kunarion]

I'm not a puzzle liking type of guy, I give them 5-10 minutes and if I cant solve it I pack in but if I ever ave a chance to find one using alternative methods I will knowing I gave it a go.

I do rely on a puzzle-solving cache friend. He selects puzzles he's solved and knows I could solve, and will email “Have you done this one yet? I'm going on a cache run next week, and you can come along”. So I'll give those puzzles another look. I like the puzzles that are elegant, that have some kind of straight-forward solution, even if it's not obvious, and even if they take some time to decode.

 

If I can't figure out the puzzle, and the Cache Owner left no obvious way to figure it out, it goes to the bottom of the stack. The CO has designed it so only someone of his great intellect shall be allowed to find his cache. To which I say, good luck with that, buh-bye.

 

I only have one "puzzle cache", and specify in the description that if people have any trouble, to contact me for help. I want people to find my cache, regardless of whether they like or can solve the puzzle. Yet I've never written to any CO for puzzle help, and probably never will. I don't take my own advice. Go figure. I have written for help with some Traditionals I couldn't find, but never got a reply on any of them.

Edited December 4, 2012 by kunarion

[+steben6]

To each their own, but for me, its just for fun.

 

I have about what, 1500 unknowns, course many of those are challenges or not really puzzles, but either way, have a lot. Most I have solved on my own and found on my own but certainly not all.

 

I would log

- solved it, but friend found it first on site. Log it.

- we worked on the puzzle, I contributed little (on this one) and then found it. Log it.

- never solved it but my caching partner solved it and wanted to do it while we were caching together. Log it.

- had to be told how to solve the puzzle AND then had to PAF to find the cache by same person. Log it.

- yada yada yada

 

For me, I want to know how to solve the puzzle and that way I can appreciate it, but it does not mean I have to solve the entire thing.

 

As a puzzle owner, I would prefer one solves it or at least tries or know how its solved, but answers are shared by friends, or friends work together, and PAFs happen. I do not care, they signed it, they found it.

 

I answered on puzzles only, but multis my end result would be similar.

+1

I agree.

[+Roman!]

I'm not a puzzle liking type of guy, I give them 5-10 minutes and if I cant solve it I pack in but if I ever ave a chance to find one using alternative methods I will knowing I gave it a go.

I do rely on a puzzle-solving cache friend. He selects puzzles he's solved and knows I could solve, and will email “Have you done this one yet? I'm going on a cache run next week, and you can come along”. So I'll give those puzzles another look. I like the puzzles that are elegant, that have some kind of straight-forward solution, even if it's not obvious, and even if they take some time to decode.

 

If I can't figure out the puzzle, and the Cache Owner left no obvious way to figure it out, it goes to the bottom of the stack. The CO has designed it so only someone of his great intellect shall be allowed to find his cache. To which I say, good luck with that, buh-bye.

 

I only have one "puzzle cache", and specify in the description that if people have any trouble, to contact me for help. I want people to find my cache, regardless of whether they like or can solve the puzzle. Yet I've never written to any CO for puzzle help, and probably never will. I don't take my own advice. Go figure. I have written for help with some Traditionals I couldn't find, but never got a reply on any of them.

 

I cache and get my help from someone that is a whiz at puzzles, he was the first to crack a puzzle that took over a month for anyone to solve and I have no shame riding his coat tails.

 

There is a puzzle (two actually) that have not been solved in some 4-5 years, now if you (not you but any you) stumbled upon it would you lg it as a find?

 

I would and I'd do an FTF dance to rival all FTF dances ever danced.

[+OZ2CPU]

I even tried to find puzzle caches not even seen their cache page !

you can walk in a park or forrest, see a nice strange tree, go check it out,

oh bingo a box and a log book, in the log book you find a GC number or a geocache name

go home and look it up, oh that puzzle nice, log as found.

now my name is in the log, and I found it.

I did this more then once by the way :-)

it must be ALOT harder over wasting endless time on puzzle tasks anyway :-)

 

it is not really any different over going out caching with a bunch of friends or geocachers,

we all go and look for a cache together, ONE finds it first, all others gather arround and sign it..

it dont work like this: one person finds it, sign it, hide it again walk away and say to the others he is done

lets move to the next one, they did not find it, bad luck for them..

Edited December 4, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[+MartyBartfast]

If I work out a puzzle I'll do it with what's available from the cache page (including past logs if they help), but I won't seek help from another finder or the CO; if that's required then I'll just ignore the puzzle.

 

I have found a couple of puzzles using local knowledge and not solving the puzzle and I believe those to be legitimate finds, I always say in my log if I didn't work out the puzzle and no CO has had a problem with that, but if they did I would appeal to Groundspeak to have my log reinstated - if I signed the log then they can't delete the find.

 

I've also found a couple of series bonuses where I was supposed to collect numbers on the way round but didn't remember until it was too late, or DNFd some of the caches so didn't have enough numbers; then having got to the end of the series I worked out where the bonus was likely to be and went and found it. Again I explain on my log and to me it's a valid find.

 

A find is a find, doesn't matter how you got there.

[+MartyBartfast]

 

There is a puzzle (two actually) that have not been solved in some 4-5 years, now if you (not you but any you) stumbled upon it would you lg it as a find?

 

 

Yes I think I would. In fact I got FTF on a regular cache which was published with the co-ords half a mile off, the first seeker DNF'd it and pointed out the co-ords put it on private land and the cache was immediately disabled, but by reading the cache page I was certain I knew which path it was on so went out, walked the path looking for anything which matched the hint and found it in 5 minutes and claimed FTF.

 

I was also out walking a few weeks ago and spotted a hole in a tree and thought "that would make a good hide", stuck my hand in and pulled out an unpublished cache, I signed the log book but if it does get published I don't think I'll claim FTF on that one as that would seem unfair to me, but I will log the find after FTF has been claimed.

[+briansnat]

I've been on group hunts where one or more members of the group had solved the puzzle, but I didn't. I signed the log but logged a note. If I ever solved the puzzles on my own I would consider changing the note to a find.

 

If you couldn't solve the puzzle would you ask for help? If so where do you draw the line at the amount of help?

 

Apart from finding every cache on your own without any external help apart from the description, title, attributes and hint its just different levels of 100% help.

 

No, I wouldn't ask for help. If I get help then I didn't solve the puzzle, I had help.

[+kunarion]

I wouldn't ask for help. If I get help then I didn't solve the puzzle, I had help.

+1

 

I like your idea of just making a Note Log if the container's found but the puzzle is not solved.

[+OZ2CPU]

III. LOGGING Guidelines:

Logging Guidelines cover the requirements that must be fulfilled in order to log a find.

 

1.Logging of All Physical Geocaches

 

Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

 

------------

it say NOTHING about you need to, must, or even CAN, solve a puzzle, before a signature in the log is accepted..

so once the log book is signed, you can log it as found online..

however, it also dont say you MUST log it as found, you CAN log it with a note if you like.

Edited December 4, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[+kunarion]

III. LOGGING Guidelines:

Logging Guidelines cover the requirements that must be fulfilled in order to log a find.

 

1.Logging of All Physical Geocaches

 

Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

 

------------

it say NOTHING about you need to, must, or even CAN, solve a puzzle, before a signature in the log is accepted..

so once the log book is signed, you can log it as found online..

however, it also dont say you MUST log it as found, you CAN log it with a note if you like.

One of the things about "Puzzle Caches" is you often can't be sure what the Cache Owner intended. If I find the coordinates by figuring out the last three .XXX decimal digits and deducing the rest, I've solved it, even if the description had a much more complicated puzzle. I've also solved some badly formed puzzles that had mistakes in them. So, sure, once you sign the log, it's fine to log the Find online.

 

But I use my online logs to help me organize my finds (also to be helpful to future cachers). If I log a Note, I can review those that I will later solve and log Found It. If I enjoy the cache, and am interested in the puzzle, I don't want to abandon the puzzle just because I found the cache. If I log Found It on all of them, they're all in one list and harder to review. So I'd consider logging a Note, then after I solve the puzzle, logging Found It. It could keep things organized.

Edited December 4, 2012 by kunarion

[knowschad]

I have logged puzzles that others have solved, but I was with them when we found the final and signed the log. And I will probably continue to. But to be honest, I never have been all that comfortable about it.

[+nittany dave]

I've found several puzzle caches only because I've been with one or more others who solved the puzzles. I'm just not into taking lots of time working on some of the very difficult puzzles we have around my area. It's unfortunate for me that I won't get to find what I understand are some very nice hides as a result of that.

I do like to solve the easier ones because it doesn't take as much time or specialized knowledge and I like finding caches.

My way of looking at it is that it's a Found it log, not a Solved it log.

[+uxorious]

If I find a cache, any cache, and sign the log, I will log on line. If the CO doesn't like it and deletes it, I will contact GC.

 

I really don't care for puzzles and seldom do them. I would not ask anyone for help on one. However, if I somehow got an idea of where to look, and found it I would log it.

 

While I really do not care at all about anyone else's numbers, I do care about my own. This is a classic example of why. Everyone plays a little different. Some of you would consider this a find and some wouldn't. If I cared about your numbers, I might care how you would log. I don't, so I don't.

[+Straight-Cache-Homey]

I echo the same as a lot of you. My girlfriend spent an afternoon solving some of the easier puzzles by us one time while I did something else around the house. We have a bunch of the answers in a notebook. She likes puzzles. Me, not so much. When we go out to find them, I'll log them as found since we will both be participants in the find. I have no problem logging them as found.

[+Totem Clan]

If you cache with a person all the time, to the point people are surprised when you don't do it, but you both log on seperate accounts; if one of you solved the puzzle and you both went to look for it together, do you think you should both log it as a find?

 

I just want to see what people will say.

[+Straight-Cache-Homey]

If you cache with a person all the time, to the point people are surprised when you don't do it, but you both log on seperate accounts; if one of you solved the puzzle and you both went to look for it together, do you think you should both log it as a find?

 

I just want to see what people will say.

Yes. Per my above post.

[+niraD]

Venona's puzzles have been one of my "edge cases" too. I'm comfortable finding and logging them though, even when I haven't solved them (or contributed to solving them) myself. Part of that is the intent of the CO: Venona's puzzles are intended to be solved by multiple people working together online, and they are intended to involve non-puzzlers in aspects of the ACTIVITIES other than puzzle solving (e.g., finding the container for the most recently solved puzzle, and retrieving the key to the next puzzle from it). Part of that is that I usually understand how to solve them (based on the online discussions and explanations of the GBA members who did solve them), and am confident that I could work the solution on my own, even if I didn't come up with that solution myself.

 

Another of my "edge cases" was finding a bunch of puzzle finals with another puzzler. We had carpooled to a geocaching hike, and on the way home, she wanted to grab a bunch of puzzle finals. I had never looked at any of those puzzles. I signed the logs, and then solved the puzzles before logging them online.

 

Another of my "edge cases" was a puzzle that I partially solved. I then brute-forced the final from the partial solution, used the coordinates of the final to figure out the rest of the solution, and logged it online.

 

Another of my "edge cases" was a multi-cache where I collected info from the penultimate stage, and brute-forced the final. Before logging it online, I worked out the coordinates of the final from the info I collected.

[+kunarion]

if one of you solved the puzzle and you both went to look for it together, do you think you should both log it as a find?

If you signed the paper log, it's suitable to then log it as a Find online. So, sure, “you should”, since that reflects what happened. People who never make online logs cause at least as many problems as people who make excuses to log everything as a “Find”. In spite of what everyone says, goofy log practices definitely affect other cachers, as well as contributing to the impending exit of the goofy-log-cacher.

 

Still, I'd consider making a Note as I mentioned, since I might want to do the puzzle anyway, and then can review the Notes later, when I want to tackle the puzzle myself. Even a Note would leave some documentation that I was there and signed the log. At the very least, I'll add it to a Bookmark or some useful list, so I don't lose track of the ones I didn't solve. But I don't invent justifications for every possible way I could log a Find.

Edited December 4, 2012 by kunarion

[knowschad]

Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache?

[+K13]

When I find a cache, I sign the log, then log it online(usually) - Regardless of how the actual find came about. I have stumbled upon some, solved the puzzle from the cache page or skipped some of the stages on multis.

If I sign the actual log in the container, I log it online.

[+dprovan]

If I find a cache, any cache, and sign the log, I will log on line. If the CO doesn't like it and deletes it, I will contact GC.

I wouldn't have any trouble leaving it up to the CO as their choice, but I agree they probably don't have an official leg to stand on if a finder wanted to contest it. Fortunately, I've never run into anything like that, since solved-it-or-don't-log-it controversy seems locally to just be an issue of honor among finders, not something any CO is concerned about.

 

By the way, one of my favorite "cheats" has happened a couple times now: I look at a cache as soon as it's published, and the puzzle has a bug that makes the solution fairly obvious. I solve it, then later I notice that the puzzle's been changed to close the loophole and make the puzzle much, much harder. Do I worry about claiming the find? Of course not. In fact, I even grabbed FTF a couple days later for one. In these cases it's easy to play dumb in the log so no one can quite figure out what happened, although naturally I try to sneak a dig in at the CO's goof up at the same time so he knows I saw it.

[+kunarion]

Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache?

Probably. I've been with groups that arrive at GZ, quickly retrieve the container and hand it to me. I kind of think they're trying to save time, since they suppose that if they waited for me to locate its clever hidey-hole, they may be waiting a while (why would they think that! ). I've signed those logs. If I'm real lucky, everyone hangs out long enough to put it back where they found it (since I have no idea how it was hidden).

Edited December 4, 2012 by kunarion

[+rosebud55112]

Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache?

 

This is what bugs me about the sign-alongs. When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving. I know, the same thing happens when two people search and one finds it and they both log it, or one conquers the terrain and both log, but the puzzle thing irks me more. I tell myself other people's stats don't matter, and I'm trying to believe it, but that still just gets under my skin.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for help from the puzzle owner, and am glad to help anyone working on any of mine. That helps me know if I've got them ranked properly, if I've built it with the appropriate dead-ends/red herrings, without unknown red herrings, etc. Asking for help from another cacher is okay if you're both working on the solve--Cooperative solving is great! Asking for help from another cacher who has solved it rather than asking the CO hurts the community in the same way not logging a DNF does--it deprives the CO of info needed to properly rate/maintain the cache.

 

And now I look hypocritical since I don't always log my DNFs.

[+niraD]

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

[knowschad]

Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache?

This is what bugs me about the sign-alongs. When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving. I know, the same thing happens when two people search and one finds it and they both log it, or one conquers the terrain and both log, but the puzzle thing irks me more. I tell myself other people's stats don't matter, and I'm trying to believe it, but that still just gets under my skin.

Yes, it is a matter of degrees, for sure. The bottom end of the scale is the two-person team where one finds, both log. Totally acceptable (these days*) to almost everybody. Next up the scale would be a larger group where one finds it, but all log it. Then you get to the higher terrain caches where only one of the group climbs the tree, etc. etc. etc.

 

 

* When I started caching, it was customary in my area to just step back when you spotted the cache, and not announce that you found it until others noticed your aloofness. Do that today and you are likely to get strung up by your caching partners.

[+MartyBartfast]

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

+1

[knowschad]

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

+1

You're not more pleased with yourself when you solve a really tough puzzle than you are when you solve a simple one? Sure, there are no "points" for it, but it would be wrong to think that there isn't a feeling of accomplishment associated with the difficulty level.

[+Legochugglers]

In my opinion the scenarios analysed in this thread all come down to honesty (especially with oneself). The challenge of a puzzle, multi, difficult/sneaky hide is a personal matter and the feeling of accomplishment can be measured by the enjoyment/satisfaction of meeting that challenge. I would be very disapointed with myself if I just logged a find based on somebody elses work.

Having said that, I have no problem with a cacher using their own initiative to find out other solutions to finding the location of a cache. I have sometimes gone out on a cache hunt with nothing but a hunch about the final location of a cache and find it quite rewarding to find a cache this way. I see some puzzle caches as a complex clue to a cache location. If I can find the cache without the clue then so be it. If this is too easy to achieve then the puzzle setter has not done a good enough job!

Of course there are some reverse exceptions where I might actually do the walk/challenge simply for the enjoyment even though I have already guessed where the cache will be hidden.

[+Totem Clan]

Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache?

It depends on the partner.

With my one caching buddy, yes. We cache together all the time. It's all almost like a husband and wife team logging on two accounts. At least 80% if not more of the caches we log, we are together for or they belong to the other one of us. As long as it's just retrieving the cache from place where either us can get but only one needs to go get it we would both sign it.

 

With different cacher I don't think I would. If I didn't put in the effert to get the cache then, no.

 

 

(Also to clarify my answer, she would never go with me on cache that is beyond her physical abilties and then expect me to bring her the cache.)

[+MartyBartfast]

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

+1

You're not more pleased with yourself when you solve a really tough puzzle than you are when you solve a simple one? Sure, there are no "points" for it, but it would be wrong to think that there isn't a feeling of accomplishment associated with the difficulty level.

 

Perhaps so, but you seemed to be implying that the stars are some sort of score that is awarded to the finder of the cache, and therefore anyone who didn't solve the puzzle was dishonestly earning those points, but stars are simply there to give potential finders an idea of the difficulty of the task facing them.

 

Personally I rarely look at the DT ratings (for any cache type) until I get to the GZ and can't find the cache, at which point I check the DT & size first, and then the hint if I still can't find it.

[+Ma & Pa]

In my opinion the scenarios analysed in this thread all come down to honesty (especially with oneself). The challenge of a puzzle, multi, difficult/sneaky hide is a personal matter and the feeling of accomplishment can be measured by the enjoyment/satisfaction of meeting that challenge. I would be very disapointed with myself if I just logged a find based on somebody elses work.

Having said that, I have no problem with a cacher using their own initiative to find out other solutions to finding the location of a cache. I have sometimes gone out on a cache hunt with nothing but a hunch about the final location of a cache and find it quite rewarding to find a cache this way. I see some puzzle caches as a complex clue to a cache location. If I can find the cache without the clue then so be it. If this is too easy to achieve then the puzzle setter has not done a good enough job!

Of course there are some reverse exceptions where I might actually do the walk/challenge simply for the enjoyment even though I have already guessed where the cache will be hidden.

 

We love to solve puzzles. Sometimes when a series comes out we can solve most of them and have to use a bit of logic to figure out where the missing ones might be. It is fun when we are able to do that.

 

We know others also do this, as evidenced by one of our puzzles in a new series of 5 puzzle caches on a trail. Cachers solved 4 of the caches but many of them were not able to solve the West coordinates for the fifth cache. They managed to find other ways to get the cache and were honest in their logs about how they managed to do that.

 

Here is that cache. You will notice that presently the geochecker shows 16 correct and 449 incorrect http://coord.info/GC40B1F

 

Here is part of what I posted in a local forum:

 

We have enjoyed watching the activity and the logs for these caches. Many of the logs were quite detailed and were a pleasure to read. I also had great fun on the Geochecker site watching all the attempts on the Two Puzzles cache.

 

Some cachers clearly put a lot of time in solving these puzzles. Whether the puzzles were solved manually or with a program, and whether you solved them yourself or went with a group, your logs and the details were really appreciated. You people make the creation of these puzzles worthwhile. Thank you so much.

[+Totem Clan]

Yes, it is a matter of degrees, for sure. The bottom end of the scale is the two-person team where one finds, both log. Totally acceptable (these days*) to almost everybody. Next up the scale would be a larger group where one finds it, but all log it. Then you get to the higher terrain caches where only one of the group climbs the tree, etc. etc. etc.

 

 

* When I started caching, it was customary in my area to just step back when you spotted the cache, and not announce that you found it until others noticed your aloofness. Do that today and you are likely to get strung up by your caching partners.

That's still the norm here for the most part. When it's just my partner and me, we both like to see the cache in place, but when one finds it, the hunts over.

 

As with most things there is an accepted ethical guideline, but no hard rule for every case.

[+NeverSummer]

I feel like this thread has been covered before, but it is interesting to see what some of the forum regulars have to say when it comes up.

 

I feel that if you sign the log, you log online, period. However, I have only ever been "along" with someone logging a find on a puzzle that I didn't solve myself. I can't even recall which cache it was.

 

But I make sure to mention my find methods whenever I find a puzzle/unknown or multi. Some I've found by brute force, others I've happened upon, others I've solved every part of, etc. I have yet to be along for more than that one time finding a puzzle that I didn't solve. I didn't like that I didn't solve it, but my name was on the logbook, so why not log the find? Again, I like to mention how I found the cache.

 

There was one memorable FTF I had on a puzzle that I found via brute force. Between the coordinates provided, the distance allowed, the home location of the placer, and the hint, I knew I might have a chance. I found it first, and logged it online. It was a fun story to tell to the owner, and that was that. They got a good chuckle out of it. Soon after, I solved the puzzle to prove to myself that I could.

[+NeverSummer]

Along similar lines, if you don't rappel down the cliff, or climb the tree, but your partner does, do you log the cache?

If I can't personally sign the logbook, I wouldn't. But, thinking about caches back in MN like some of EskoClimber's, I'd be really, really ashamed if I didn't do the work myself!

[+stijnhommes]

If you couldn't solve the puzzle would you ask for help? If so where do you draw the line at the amount of help?

I draw the line before anything that reveals exact coordinates. I had a CO just hand me the coordinates when I simply asked them if all the waypoints were present when I was about to visit somewhere for a day of caching. I would prefer a hint over the solution any day.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

+1

You're not more pleased with yourself when you solve a really tough puzzle than you are when you solve a simple one? Sure, there are no "points" for it, but it would be wrong to think that there isn't a feeling of accomplishment associated with the difficulty level.

 

More than that, I would imagine that in many cases there is a correlation between the difficulty rating on a puzzle and how much time the owner put into creating it. That's why I consider it distasteful to have the notion of having no qualms about finding a puzzle cache that someone else solved without making any attempt to solve the or ask the cache owner for help. In the case of a fairly straightforward D2 puzzle that the owner spent an hour or so creating most cache owners are probably not going to be too bothered if someone tags along with someone that solved it and finds the cache. If, however, someone spends weeks or months constructing an elaborate puzzle cache (I've heard cases of a team of cachers spending over a year to construct an puzzle cache) and a bunch of people find it via a PAF network without solving the puzzle, I find it really disrespectful to the cache owner to circumvent the intent the owner had when creating the puzzle. If I were that cache owner, and people were just using a PAF network to get group finds on my high difficulty puzzle caches (assuming I had some) I'd be very reluctant to spend much effort on creating elaborate and innovative puzzle caches. Since I'm not going to place for no other reason than to provide numbers hounds an increment in their find count it would mean I'd essentially stop placing new caches.

[+niraD]

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

You're not more pleased with yourself when you solve a really tough puzzle than you are when you solve a simple one? Sure, there are no "points" for it, but it would be wrong to think that there isn't a feeling of accomplishment associated with the difficulty level.

Sure. But correlation is not causation.

 

One of my Favorites is a D5 puzzle. But what was amazing about that puzzle wasn't its D5 rating. What was amazing about that puzzle was its elegance, which I could fully appreciate only after I had solved it and realized what the solution implied about its creation. I've had similar "Aha!" moments with D3 puzzles, D4 puzzles, etc.

[+313JTG]

I love puzzle caches as they make up nearly 15% of my finds thus far, probably a little more after my next cache run. I'll agree with a couple of people who mentioned this early: if you sign the log and unless it's a challenge cache where you don't meet the requirements, then you should be able to claim a find. However, if I ever accidently find a puzzle (most likely when I go out to place a new one), I would at least try to solve the puzzle before logging my find online. If you have the coordinates then you can probably figure things out.

[+Roman!]

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

+1

You're not more pleased with yourself when you solve a really tough puzzle than you are when you solve a simple one? Sure, there are no "points" for it, but it would be wrong to think that there isn't a feeling of accomplishment associated with the difficulty level.

 

More than that, I would imagine that in many cases there is a correlation between the difficulty rating on a puzzle and how much time the owner put into creating it. That's why I consider it distasteful to have the notion of having no qualms about finding a puzzle cache that someone else solved without making any attempt to solve the or ask the cache owner for help. In the case of a fairly straightforward D2 puzzle that the owner spent an hour or so creating most cache owners are probably not going to be too bothered if someone tags along with someone that solved it and finds the cache. If, however, someone spends weeks or months constructing an elaborate puzzle cache (I've heard cases of a team of cachers spending over a year to construct an puzzle cache) and a bunch of people find it via a PAF network without solving the puzzle, I find it really disrespectful to the cache owner to circumvent the intent the owner had when creating the puzzle. If I were that cache owner, and people were just using a PAF network to get group finds on my high difficulty puzzle caches (assuming I had some) I'd be very reluctant to spend much effort on creating elaborate and innovative puzzle caches. Since I'm not going to place for no other reason than to provide numbers hounds an increment in their find count it would mean I'd essentially stop placing new caches.

 

My friend is both very good at solving and creating puzzles, when a new difficult one comes out he will not help me to any extent till it's been found 10 or so times, after that most people are getting help from PAF to some extent or another.

 

He has created some tough puzzles but rarely rates them higher than 3.5 Difficulty because he knows once a few people solve it they'll help their freinds and he's OK with that, his main joy is the time between publication till it's solved/found.

 

Once you've had help with a puzzle be it a gentle nudge or handed the coordinates you did not solve the puzzle, you had help.

 

 

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

+1

You're not more pleased with yourself when you solve a really tough puzzle than you are when you solve a simple one? Sure, there are no "points" for it, but it would be wrong to think that there isn't a feeling of accomplishment associated with the difficulty level.

 

Personally I don't enjoy solving puzzles to find a cache, when I'm home I'm with my family and when I have time to geocache I'm outside. Solving puzzles would either take away from my family or take away from my outdoor time which to me is anti-geocaching thus I get no joy solving puzzles and how I come about the solution and/or final coordinates so I can get out and sign the log does not matter to me.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Roman!

[knowschad]

When I rate a puzzle cache, I've got stars in there for the difficulty of the solve, as well as the difficulty of the hide and terrain. You get free stars when you log a cache you had nothing to do with solving.

To me, the difficulty and terrain ratings are not "stars that I get when I log a cache". They are merely a communication tool, a way for the CO to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers.

+1

You're not more pleased with yourself when you solve a really tough puzzle than you are when you solve a simple one? Sure, there are no "points" for it, but it would be wrong to think that there isn't a feeling of accomplishment associated with the difficulty level.

 

Perhaps so, but you seemed to be implying that the stars are some sort of score that is awarded to the finder of the cache, and therefore anyone who didn't solve the puzzle was dishonestly earning those points, but stars are simply there to give potential finders an idea of the difficulty of the task facing them.

 

Personally I rarely look at the DT ratings (for any cache type) until I get to the GZ and can't find the cache, at which point I check the DT & size first, and then the hint if I still can't find it.

 

I am? Don't I see the words, "Sure, there are no "points" for it" in the quoted text? Why, yes... there they are!!

 

I was speaking of a personal feeling of accomplishment, not a point system.

 

You say that the difficulty level given to a puzzle cache is simply there to give you an idea of the difficulty. That I can't disagree with.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I've solved difficult puzzles through past logs

 

No matter whether you solve a puzzle the easy way or the hard way, you solved it. Same goes for whether you solved it the way the CO intended or some other way.

 

I've been with a CO who solved a puzzle when making the find. I've been given step by step hints to solve a puzzle, I've been given final coordinates

 

Did you find the cache? Then it's a Find. But I would be honest in my log whether I'd solved it or gotten help.

 

I've accidentally found puzzle and multi finals and I have logged them all.

 

I haven't found any by accident, but if I had I would still log it as a Find.

 

I've found a few puzzle caches where I didn't solve the puzzle at all, but recognizing what was required to solve the puzzle I passed it along to a friend who I thought would enjoy solving the puzzle for its own merits. Others I got help from others (often non-cachers), not always the CO. I think I've always given the proper people credit for their help or for solving the puzzle for me. I've also solved cyphers via online decryption tools rather than by hand, sometimes without ever knowing what cypher was even used! In each case, I still found the cache itself and feel no shame for logging a Find. I used to work in a library and I learned an important philosophy there: you don't need to know everything, you just need to know where to find what you don't know. Sometimes that means just asking another person.