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I want to know about this "Angel Cache" thing


WeeLurk

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We have started to cache again after a few months break and have discovered a few people have been placing "Angel Caches". I am guessing that an "Angel cache" is one that is placed by a seeker when the seeker cannot find the original. The caches that I have seen these "Angel Caches" at are caches that have not been maintained in years and have a long list of DNF. The person placing the "Angel cache" has been logging it as a "Found" even though they are not done with the permission of the original cache owner. I'm curious what everyone's oppinion of this is and if they count as a find. Thanks

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So "Throwdown" = "Angel Cache", I guess that is the seekers way of making it sound more friendly. Ok, so a throwdown is a bad thing making an angel cache a bad thing too. I feel like a lot of the caches that I have seen that this has happened to will not ever be seen by the actual CO cause the CO is MIA. What to do about this problem?

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Most likely, the person throwing down the cache (whether it was missing or not) refused to accept that failure of a DNF. Calling it an "angel cache" is an attempt to make it sound as if they were doing good, when actually, they wanted a find for a cache that they did not find.

Some COs have to go out and remove the throwdown that is a few feet from their well-hidden cache. Often a film cannister a few feet from an ammo can.

The proper procedure is NA. Or at a minimum DNF.

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Some COs have to go out and remove the throwdown that is a few feet from their well-hidden cache. Often a film cannister a few feet from an ammo can.
+10

 

Some (now deleted) "Found It" logs on one of my caches, and my maintenance log.

icon_smile.gifFound It

 

OH MY new WIDER trail now, in the past couple days... GZ was a bull dozed mess. Replaced cache with New container. TFTC

icon_smile.gifFound It

 

Great morning caching with XXXXXX today...

 

Path is now a road, XXXXXX replaced the cache as we were thinking it may have been plowed under

 

TFTC, SL, YYYYYY

icon_maint.gifOwner Maintenance

 

With reports that the area had been bulldozed and that the cache had been replaced by the last two seekers, I set out to check for myself. Since the point of this cache is the "Bison-Tube-ness" of the cache and I don't currently have the necessary materials to replace it, I planned on archiving the cache if it was, indeed, missing. Gone or not, I needed to come back out here. If it was gone, I needed to verify that for myself, and remove the throwdown before archiving the cache. If it was still in place, I needed to remove the throwdown before someone else got confused by finding it instead of the real cache.

 

It was not missing. Cache was in place, I almost knelt on the throwdown when I retrieved the original. The road might be a couple feet wider than it used to be, but for the most part looks the same as it has since I first ventured out. Well, minus a few potholes. I must say the cache was just feet from destruction, but it was, and is, quite findable.

 

While I appreciate the sentiment of the two cachers who decided to replace the cache, I am a bit baffled at why they thought an Airborne container would be appropriate, especially when the cache is named "Bison Tube" and is described as "a bit different from your average Bison Tube Hide". Different it was, but it followed neither the spirit nor the letter of the cache description.

 

So, I'd say thanks for bringing me back out here, but I had other nearby caches that I haven't found yet that I didn't go after today so that I could come fix this one.

I was pretty steamed by the end of this hike. The "Bulldozing" that took place was some grading to the road, and they obviously didn't pay a bit of attention to the cache listing, replacing a custom container with something plucked from the recycling bin, filled with a scrap of paper, and tossed on the ground. <_< Edited by Too Tall John
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"Legal" implies that there is some law involved. Are they legal, yes.

Are they appropriate? No, if you cannot find a cache, you should post a DNF and move onto the next one.

You shouldn't assume that because you cannot find it, that it isn't there.

You are not doing anyone any favors by throwing down a replacement cache and claiming that you found it on the way to the ground. You are increasing your smiley count by one however.

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I'm not sure if I should admit it or not but I've thrown one down and logged it. There was a cemetery multi which had quite a few DNFs in a row on it. It's final GZ was in a tree, 8 feet up according to the hint. The last found log indicated that it was found lower (2 feet instead of 8), replace there, and I presume it went missing after that. It was an isolated tree in that cemetery, and the hiding spot 8 feet up was obvious, so I was sure it wasn't there. There were several consecutive DNFs over more than 6 months, so one day I got a matchsafe and hid it there. In my log I told the CO to let me know if he object. He hasn't, and quite a few people have logged it since. That was a few months ago, and I haven't made a habit of throwing down, but I don't regret it.

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I'm not sure if I should admit it or not but I've thrown one down and logged it. There was a cemetery multi which had quite a few DNFs in a row on it. It's final GZ was in a tree, 8 feet up according to the hint. The last found log indicated that it was found lower (2 feet instead of 8), replace there, and I presume it went missing after that. It was an isolated tree in that cemetery, and the hiding spot 8 feet up was obvious, so I was sure it wasn't there. There were several consecutive DNFs over more than 6 months, so one day I got a matchsafe and hid it there. In my log I told the CO to let me know if he object. He hasn't, and quite a few people have logged it since. That was a few months ago, and I haven't made a habit of throwing down, but I don't regret it.

So you and quite a few people have logged finds on your cache...

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Most likely, the person throwing down the cache (whether it was missing or not) refused to accept that failure of a DNF. Calling it an "angel cache" is an attempt to make it sound as if they were doing good, when actually, they wanted a find for a cache that they did not find.

Some COs have to go out and remove the throwdown that is a few feet from their well-hidden cache. Often a film cannister a few feet from an ammo can.

The proper procedure is NA. Or at a minimum DNF.

Yep

I had to do it 3 times on one of my caches before the guy caught the hint and moved on.

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I'm not sure if I should admit it or not but I've thrown one down and logged it. There was a cemetery multi which had quite a few DNFs in a row on it. It's final GZ was in a tree, 8 feet up according to the hint. The last found log indicated that it was found lower (2 feet instead of 8), replace there, and I presume it went missing after that. It was an isolated tree in that cemetery, and the hiding spot 8 feet up was obvious, so I was sure it wasn't there. There were several consecutive DNFs over more than 6 months, so one day I got a matchsafe and hid it there. In my log I told the CO to let me know if he object. He hasn't, and quite a few people have logged it since. That was a few months ago, and I haven't made a habit of throwing down, but I don't regret it.

So you and quite a few people have logged finds on your cache...

 

Yes.

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Once I went to a geocache and found it missing. I read recent logs and knew that the cache had been rather simple to find but last cachers reported that it had been most probably muggled when the fence (it was a magnetic nano attached to the fence) had been painted. Indeed, there were signs of fresh paint and no container. I wasn't able to contact the CO by phone. So I restored the cache in other place (close to the original one) with good camouflage and even turned it from micro into small (provided new container, logbook and a couple of souvenirs that I had with me). Next day I logged that cache as DNF and send all details by email to the cache owner to know if he liked the idea. I offered him to take my container and use it for any other geocaching purposes if he was not satisfied with my attempt. He was glad to know that the cache had been replaced since he had no physical ability to maintain it soon. The coordinates/hint were changed, everyone seemed to be happy. I believe that this story is not what you call an "Angel cache".

 

The question is whether I can log the cache as found after all or not?

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Once I went to a geocache and found it missing. I read recent logs and knew that the cache had been rather simple to find but last cachers reported that it had been most probably muggled when the fence (it was a magnetic nano attached to the fence) had been painted. Indeed, there were signs of fresh paint and no container. I wasn't able to contact the CO by phone. So I restored the cache in other place (close to the original one) with good camouflage and even turned it from micro into small (provided new container, logbook and a couple of souvenirs that I had with me). Next day I logged that cache as DNF and send all details by email to the cache owner to know if he liked the idea. I offered him to take my container and use it for any other geocaching purposes if he was not satisfied with my attempt. He was glad to know that the cache had been replaced since he had no physical ability to maintain it soon. The coordinates/hint were changed, everyone seemed to be happy. I believe that this story is not what you call an "Angel cache".

 

The question is whether I can log the cache as found after all or not?

 

That's between you, your conscience and the cache owner. Personlly I can't see logging finds on caches I didn't find, but not everyone agrees.

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Once I went to a geocache and found it missing. I read recent logs and knew that the cache had been rather simple to find but last cachers reported that it had been most probably muggled when the fence (it was a magnetic nano attached to the fence) had been painted. Indeed, there were signs of fresh paint and no container. I wasn't able to contact the CO by phone. So I restored the cache in other place (close to the original one) with good camouflage and even turned it from micro into small (provided new container, logbook and a couple of souvenirs that I had with me). Next day I logged that cache as DNF and send all details by email to the cache owner to know if he liked the idea. I offered him to take my container and use it for any other geocaching purposes if he was not satisfied with my attempt. He was glad to know that the cache had been replaced since he had no physical ability to maintain it soon. The coordinates/hint were changed, everyone seemed to be happy. I believe that this story is not what you call an "Angel cache".

 

The question is whether I can log the cache as found after all or not?

 

Can and Should are going to be two different answers from me. The system allows you to, so yes you CAN. You didn't find anything, you placed a cache. I say you SHOULD NOT log a find. Once I'm king of everything, I'll make that a rule and not an opinion :laughing:

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There are two scenarios where i might try to help out the cache owner with replacement of their cache. The first would be if i had found the cache before and knew exactly where and what it was. The second would be if i called/texted/emailed the owner while at ground zero and they gave me the go ahead with specific details of where, how, and what needed to be hidden.

 

I honestly cannot think of any other reason to replace another owner's cache, well,,, except to get that all important smiley! :rolleyes:

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Can and Should are going to be two different answers from me. The system allows you to, so yes you CAN

 

Thank you for clearing this difference to me :) English is actually not my first language.

 

You said I probably should not log the cache as found after I maintained it. OK, I walk away, come back tomorrow morning, sign logbook and log the cache as found. Is anything wrong with that?

 

That's between you, your conscience and the cache owner.

 

It's funny you mentioned my conscience :) Anyway, let's say John found some cache missing from its hiding place, passed by and logged it later as DNF. Jane found herself in just the same situation but replaced the cache (spent a good container, logbook, pencil, souvenirs, did some good camouflage, recorded GPS coordinates, took a photo of the hiding place, sent information to CO). John did nothing to help the game. Jane did much. Both got DNFs. Don't you think that with such approach we don't encourage people to do any maintenance?

 

(I hereby confirm that I know about that COs are responsible for maintainance by rule :) )

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Anyway, let's say John found some cache missing from its hiding place, passed by and logged it later as DNF. Jane found herself in just the same situation but replaced the cache (spent a good container, logbook, pencil, souvenirs, did some good camouflage, recorded GPS coordinates, took a photo of the hiding place, sent information to CO). John did nothing to help the game. Jane did much.
Jane caused trouble for the cache owner if the original cache is still in place, now they've got to go retrieve Jane's cache. Only difference between your scenario and the one I presented earlier is the price of the throwdown.
What if you are not able call/text/email the owner while at ground zero? Or the owner seems to be unaccessible at the moment?
Edited by Too Tall John
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Can and Should are going to be two different answers from me. The system allows you to, so yes you CAN

 

Thank you for clearing this difference to me :) English is actually not my first language.

 

You said I probably should not log the cache as found after I maintained it. OK, I walk away, come back tomorrow morning, sign logbook and log the cache as found. Is anything wrong with that?

 

That's between you, your conscience and the cache owner.

 

It's funny you mentioned my conscience :) Anyway, let's say John found some cache missing from its hiding place, passed by and logged it later as DNF. Jane found herself in just the same situation but replaced the cache (spent a good container, logbook, pencil, souvenirs, did some good camouflage, recorded GPS coordinates, took a photo of the hiding place, sent information to CO). John did nothing to help the game. Jane did much. Both got DNFs. Don't you think that with such approach we don't encourage people to do any maintenance?

 

(I hereby confirm that I know about that COs are responsible for maintainance by rule :) )

 

This is the justification that throw down cachers use. They convince themselves that they are doing a good dead and thus deserve to be rewarded with a smilie.

 

I do use this justification when on a rescue mission and my conscience remains clear. By rescue mission, I don't mean a LPC cache at WalMart. I'm talking about a planned hike into a remote area where I know that I will be passing by a cache that may be in trouble and with coordination with the cache owner. If I have specific knowledge from the CO to determine that the cache is indeed missing, and the CO is grateful to have me replace it, I'll do so and I will log it as found. This is another one of those lings that I was taught by more experienced cachers when I was first starting out. It's SOP around here.

 

Dropping a micro in an urban area, without permission from the CO, because you can't find the cache, or worse, are to lazy to search properly, is just plain wrong.

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It's funny you mentioned my conscience :) Anyway, let's say John found some cache missing from its hiding place, passed by and logged it later as DNF. Jane found herself in just the same situation but replaced the cache (spent a good container, logbook, pencil, souvenirs, did some good camouflage, recorded GPS coordinates, took a photo of the hiding place, sent information to CO). John did nothing to help the game. Jane did much. Both got DNFs. Don't you think that with such approach we don't encourage people to do any maintenance?

 

(I hereby confirm that I know about that COs are responsible for maintainance by rule :) )

Jane shouldn't have been taking care of the cache anyway without the CO's permission. Even if her intent was good, what did she find other than an empty hiding place? Nothing. That is a DNF.

 

A cache log shouldn't be a commodity exchanged for good deeds or any other purpose. It is a statement of fact. If you hunted the cache did you find it or not? There are log types for both possibilities.

Edited by briansnat
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Oh, you mean a "throwdown"? You'll find a lot of angst if you search the forums for that word.

 

Personally, I have no problem with people replacing a missing container, and I do it myself sometimes. But I would absolutely NOT claim it as a "find" when all I found was a spot for a replacement. To me that's wrong.

 

Yeah, I remember a thread a couple of years ago that referred to them as "Angel caches", a term that I find absurdly silly, but at least I know what they mean now.

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Oh, you mean a "throwdown"? You'll find a lot of angst if you search the forums for that word.

 

Personally, I have no problem with people replacing a missing container, and I do it myself sometimes. But I would absolutely NOT claim it as a "find" when all I found was a spot for a replacement. To me that's wrong.

 

Yeah, I remember a thread a couple of years ago that referred to them as "Angel caches", a term that I find absurdly silly, but at least I know what they mean now.

 

I think I did see a 20,000+ finder from my State refer to dropping a throwdown as an "Angel cache" once. Is this a term that is known among people who do this? Are they aware of the term "throw down", and know that it has negative connotations, even amongst the volunteer reviewer community? These are questions I need answered. :lol:

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Can and Should are going to be two different answers from me. The system allows you to, so yes you CAN

 

Thank you for clearing this difference to me :) English is actually not my first language.

 

You said I probably should not log the cache as found after I maintained replaced it on my own accord. OK, I walk away, come back tomorrow morning, sign logbook and log the cache as found. Is anything wrong with that?

 

 

That's what I meant. Might be more semantics. To maintain a cache that's not your own consists of drying out a wet container, replacing a sopping wet log, or duct taping a hole in the lid. It does not include putting a cache down when you can't find it. I stick to the state of mind that says you can't "find" something that you hid. Doesn't make any sense. I'm sure the "here's a reason I found my own cache" crowd is just hovering over their keyboards right this second, but meh.

 

All that being said, if that's one of the ways that you get enjoyment from the game, knock yourself out :grin:

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I honestly cannot think of any other reason to replace another owner's cache

 

What if you are not able call/text/email the owner while at ground zero? Or the owner seems to be unaccessible at the moment?

 

It would be a dnf, plain and simple. Write in your dnf log what you experienced and let the cache owner take care of it, if they think they need to.

 

The thing is, without knowing for sure, the cache could actually be in place and you simply did not see it. If you put out another cache, then confusion can result with two caches being so close to each other.

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Thank you all for your answers. It's really interesting how different is geocaching in different countries/realities.

 

The game here (where I live) can survive only due to mutual assistance between geocachers. It's a "fair play" tradition to do everything you can to keep caches in good condition and within the game. What you call a "throwdown" is not welcomed of course. People are encouraged to contact COs before going geocaching. Jane wouldn't be crucified for her attempt though maybe she would be given a good advice by some experienced cacher for her next geocaching trip. If John logs DNF for a cache he failed to find it is common. If he found that the cache was obviously damaged or missing from its hiding place but did nothing to improve the situation this would be... how do you say here? between him, his conscience and the stability of the whole game.

 

I personally have no objections to "found it" logs by geocachers who help me to repair my caches. This is one more (and very important) way to keep the game going around here.

 

I take your advices seriously and respect your attitude to "found it" and "DNF" logs. Your reasons are quite clear.

 

If I have specific knowledge from the CO to determine that the cache is indeed missing, and the CO is grateful to have me replace it, I'll do so and I will log it as found

 

This is what I usually do myself.

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Thank you all for your answers. It's really interesting how different is geocaching in different countries/realities.

 

The game here (where I live) can survive only due to mutual assistance between geocachers. It's a "fair play" tradition to do everything you can to keep caches in good condition and within the game. What you call a "throwdown" is not welcomed of course. People are encouraged to contact COs before going geocaching. Jane wouldn't be crucified for her attempt though maybe she would be given a good advice by some experienced cacher for her next geocaching trip. If John logs DNF for a cache he failed to find it is common. If he found that the cache was obviously damaged or missing from its hiding place but did nothing to improve the situation this would be... how do you say here? between him, his conscience and the stability of the whole game.

 

I personally have no objections to "found it" logs by geocachers who help me to repair my caches. This is one more (and very important) way to keep the game going around here.

 

I take your advices seriously and respect your attitude to "found it" and "DNF" logs. Your reasons are quite clear.

 

If I have specific knowledge from the CO to determine that the cache is indeed missing, and the CO is grateful to have me replace it, I'll do so and I will log it as found

 

This is what I usually do myself.

 

Helping out a cache owner, with their blessing, is a good thing. I would hope that most cachers would help if they can. Throw downs on the otherhand, shouldn't happen. For the most part, these are not attempts to help a cache owner but to simply help the cacher doing it increase smiley count.

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Looks like you guys had some hot discussion about "throwdowns" earlier :)

 

A search for the term throwdown produced 614 results. Although the first post was in reference to a police officer leaving an untraceable gun at a scene, in a few other posts it indicates it was used slang term for something else. The first use in the forums in reference to a cache was in 2006 by Briansnat, although it appears to already have been in use.

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I'm glad I started reading the forums as early as I did in my caching career, it helped me out on situations like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=7147a1ad-6c64-456d-b1b9-9c85be835ecc

 

It was a post cap hide at the top of a street sign, that I heard fall into the pole as I pulled the cap off. I dropped a fishing lure with two treble hooks down the pole for a while, trying to fish it out, with no luck, so I replaced it. A few days later the CO (who I'm good friends with now) emailed me, reminding me to log a find.

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I'm glad I started reading the forums as early as I did in my caching career, it helped me out on situations like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=7147a1ad-6c64-456d-b1b9-9c85be835ecc

 

It was a post cap hide at the top of a street sign, that I heard fall into the pole as I pulled the cap off. I dropped a fishing lure with two treble hooks down the pole for a while, trying to fish it out, with no luck, so I replaced it. A few days later the CO (who I'm good friends with now) emailed me, reminding me to log a find.

You know what, Puritan Week is over. Log the find!

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In another discussion, the OP felt they were a cache angel for replacing a container that had a wet logbook and the container was missing a lid. Further investigation showed that the cache is an abandoned cache in front of a high school. The cache was placed and abandoned in 2005. The original cache had quickly become a "rust bucket". Then in 2007 another cache angel comes along and replaces the cache but does not return to fix it when reports come in a year and a half later about a wet logbook and missing lid. In 2012 the OP puts out the second "angel" cache.

 

Another example: In August 2010 I found the broken cache scattered over the forest floor. Looked like an animal got it. Gathered it up and tucked it back. Posted an NM and photos. Then a caching group comes by a month later and leaves a cookie tin container with no logbook (next finder reports there's no logbook). Next person leaves a coupon as a temporary logbook. Later someone leaves a logsheet. A few weeks later complaints come in about a wet logsheet. Reviewer posts a note because the 9 month old NM log has not been addressed. Complaints continue until August 2012 when someone adds another logbook. The Reviewer's hands are tied because people are still logging it as found, no one else posts an NM and every once in a while someone adds a dry logsheet to keep this cache limping along.

 

It's very rare that people who place 'angel caches' go back to maintain them. For the most part it just postpones the inevitable and will likely result in a mess of cache trash once it eventually gets archived, because no one goes back to clean it up.

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Oh, you mean a "throwdown"? You'll find a lot of angst if you search the forums for that word.

 

Personally, I have no problem with people replacing a missing container, and I do it myself sometimes. But I would absolutely NOT claim it as a "find" when all I found was a spot for a replacement. To me that's wrong.

Yes, a "Throwdown". They are like a community cache that keeps others from being able to maintain a listing at the location. It's a numbers thing for the finder, it sure ain't being helpful from my view. <_<

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