Was I Wrong?

[+BlueDeuce]

Now why would you do that, rather than writing a note? Suppose it was a decoy, or not the cache at all?

 

And there we go. The owner allowed me to log the cache justification.

[+BlueDeuce]

Wait for it.

[+dprovan]

I went to a cache the same day that had a wet log sheet. It took me 1 hour to find so I let the log dry out until I could sign it. Put a note with my find log say that the log was wet and got an immediate email from the C/O tell me that I should have replaced the log. So now a little wiser I have fresh logs, baggies, and a felt pin.

What's the point of putting another log in a cache that has a wet log in it? I can't believe a CO chastised you for not putting more pulp fodder into his stinky container. And after you went to the trouble of drying out his log for him. That's some nerve.

[+WarNinjas]

I would have probibly logged it as a find as well. In my almost 1500 finds I have done so about 2-3 times. If it was up a tree or over a river or something and I seen it and couldn't get to it of course I wouldn't log it as a find but if I wait out muggles and they are not leaving and I feel it would compromise the cache...then yes I would rather just log the find and not get it muggled. We have out over 100 hides and would much rather someone do that then get our cache muggled just to sign it. Don't get me wrong I have waited out many muggles for a long time and don't just log any cache I see but sometimes you just know it is not going to happen and don't want to ruin a cache. If I know I could sign it and it might get muggled then I will just log the find. If a cache owner feels they need to delete it I am fine with that as well.

If it was rated a higher difficulty and thought there was even a possibility it might be a decoy cache then I wouldn't log it. I would state in my log I didn't sign it and why and if it was a decoy the CO could let me know and I would definitely log it as a DNF. We are working on a streak and always sign one a day. Wouldn't use one like this for that. We always find and sign one. One I had my hand on but there was a crazy guy in a field rolling around in the grass looking at me. I decided not to sign it and get out of there.

WarNinjas

[+The_Incredibles_]

I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook. People do this all the time when they forget a pen. As a cache owner, it's good enough for me. However, if someone were to delete my log for not signing, they would be within their rights, however I have never hear of anybody doing that, at least not where I live.

If it was my cache and you logged a find I would delete your log in a heart beat. Theres a big difference of forgetting/losing a pen and having the cache in hand than being able to see the cache and log a find. But you can play how you want to.

 

I agree...if the cache was up a tree. Would you prefer under this circumstance for me to point out the cache to the muggles so they could get out of my way so I could make the grab and sign it?

How about come back another day when nobody was around and actually have the cache in hand and sign the log.

 

Seems like a waste of gas and time. If it seemed the CO really cared, I would go back and physically sign it. I just don't know anybody here that really cares.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Suppose it was a decoy, or not the cache at all?

 

I've found almost 1200 caches and there was only 1 situation where there was a decoy. I guess if I went home and read the logs and found something about a decoy, I would go back another time and find the real cache.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook. People do this all the time when they forget a pen. As a cache owner, it's good enough for me. However, if someone were to delete my log for not signing, they would be within their rights, however I have never hear of anybody doing that, at least not where I live.

If it was my cache and you logged a find I would delete your log in a heart beat. Theres a big difference of forgetting/losing a pen and having the cache in hand than being able to see the cache and log a find. But you can play how you want to.

 

I agree...if the cache was up a tree. Would you prefer under this circumstance for me to point out the cache to the muggles so they could get out of my way so I could make the grab and sign it?

How about come back another day when nobody was around and actually have the cache in hand and sign the log.

 

I would do that if the owner deleted my log.

[+-CJ-]

I don't post my log as "found it" if I didn't sign the logbook. The reason is quite simple. If I play this way and allow to do this at my own geocaches, any other cacher can play this style. What today is an exclusion from the rule may become a probable variant tomorrow and a good tradition next month. People start thinking like this: "Oh, muggles, too many people. If it was a must to sign the logbook we could wait for them to go away. But we can log the cache as found without signing its logbook, so why shall we wait?!". People don't care about replacing soaked logbooks ("I wasn't able to sign the log because it was all wet. Put it back and went further"). Some people log geocaches as found after they failed to find it actually ("The hiding place was obvious but no container there, the cache must be muggled. Since I've found the place I log the cache as found"). All this with kind permissions from COs, of course. Then, cachers themselves are different. Novices who have almost no experience of caching in big cities see there are muggles around and give up almost immediately. (BTW, many of them say: "I could try to grab the cache but was worried about it not to be muggled after me"). As a result, "the quality of the game" decreases, COs receive less information about their caches and more that bla-bla-bla about muggles, bad weather, total darkness, angry mosquitoes, forgotten pens and other issues. One could say that I'm too dramatic. Well, this is exactly what happened to our "national geocaching" game here in Russia. It is common here even for COs to add to their cache descriptions: "If the container is covered with snow, or there are muggles around, or the cache is found destroyed, or you were not able to grab the container for any other reason please feel free to log it as found after you take your photo in front of ..." This is what we have come to. So - for me now it's "no physical log - no found cache".

Edited November 30, 2012 by -CJ-

[+OZ2CPU]

>I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook.

 

you got to be kidding..

 

>People do this all the time when they forget a pen.

 

NOPE.. if you forget your pen, you can not sign logbooks,

so you can not claim any more finds that day,

if you drop or looses your pen, the game is over that day...

 

>As a cache owner, it's good enough for me.

 

Cool, I I log all your caches from my home 8000 km away,

here is my log : TFTC forgot the pen

 

>However, if someone were to delete my log for not signing, they would be within their rights,

 

I do it all the time, and I know all my friends do it too,

if a "finder" said in his online log it is not signed.

 

>however I have never hear of anybody doing that, at least not where I live.

 

maybe all people play fair game, after the guideline as it is ment to be played

so there is really no problems..

 

come on, bring back this thread to its main idea.

a beginner make a little fault, he just did not know, fine,

he learn more and more all the time, he did not feel it was right, ask and find out how it is to be done,

he corrected his error log, and can now continue a game of honor,

this is a gentlemans sport, not a game of fake or lies..

[+MartyBartfast]

>I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook.

 

you got to be kidding..

 

>People do this all the time when they forget a pen.

 

NOPE.. if you forget your pen, you can not sign logbooks,

so you can not claim any more finds that day,

if you drop or looses your pen, the game is over that day...

 

 

You know when you go to log a find on the website, there's that little box with a dropdown list of log types, there's one that says "Found it", there isn't one that says "Wrote name in log"; Found is the past tense of find, have a look here to see what the word find actually means. He found it, he can log it as found; if the CO disputes that find and deletes it then that's their perogative but if the CO is happy about it then all's well with the world.

[+Maconb]

 

come on, bring back this thread to its main idea.

a beginner make a little fault, he just did not know, fine,

he learn more and more all the time, he did not feel it was right, ask and find out how it is to be done,

he corrected his error log, and can now continue a game of honor,

this is a gentlemans sport, not a game of fake or lies..

 

Exactly.

[+Semper Questio]

 

{snip}

 

Put a note with my find log say that the log was wet and got an immediate email from the C/O tell me that I should have replaced the log.

 

{\snip}

 

 

No. What SHOULD happens is that the CO thanks you for tending to his/her cache and then get out there and replace it with a more weather-resistant container and a new log. It is the CO's responsibility to maintain the cache, not yours. Cache finders fix caches out of courtesy and kindness, not out of obligation. That CO needs to re-learn what it means to be a CO.

[+the4dirtydogs]

I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook. People do this all the time when they forget a pen. As a cache owner, it's good enough for me. However, if someone were to delete my log for not signing, they would be within their rights, however I have never hear of anybody doing that, at least not where I live.

If it was my cache and you logged a find I would delete your log in a heart beat. Theres a big difference of forgetting/losing a pen and having the cache in hand than being able to see the cache and log a find. But you can play how you want to.

 

I agree...if the cache was up a tree. Would you prefer under this circumstance for me to point out the cache to the muggles so they could get out of my way so I could make the grab and sign it?

How about come back another day when nobody was around and actually have the cache in hand and sign the log.

 

Seems like a waste of gas and time. If it seemed the CO really cared, I would go back and physically sign it. I just don't know anybody here that really cares.

Seems like a sense of entitlement to me. I've gone back to many caches because there were people at the GZ and I was unable to make the grab and sign the log and put the cache back. I care thats why I said something. To me it just seems like a lame excuse to log a find... I can see the cache but cant grab it because a muggle is there but I'm claiming a find. Like I said if thats how you want to play then so be it but I think that's one cheesy way to log a find.

Edited November 30, 2012 by the4dirtydogs

[+the4dirtydogs]

I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook. People do this all the time when they forget a pen. As a cache owner, it's good enough for me. However, if someone were to delete my log for not signing, they would be within their rights, however I have never hear of anybody doing that, at least not where I live.

If it was my cache and you logged a find I would delete your log in a heart beat. Theres a big difference of forgetting/losing a pen and having the cache in hand than being able to see the cache and log a find. But you can play how you want to.

 

I agree...if the cache was up a tree. Would you prefer under this circumstance for me to point out the cache to the muggles so they could get out of my way so I could make the grab and sign it?

How about come back another day when nobody was around and actually have the cache in hand and sign the log.

 

I would do that if the owner deleted my log.

Why would you even let it come to that? I have had to come back to many caches and sign the log before I claimed the find. I guess some people just play different.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

without reading the plethora of other posts, my understanding is if you dont sign the log then its not a find.

 

It's not quite that simple. Whether or not "it's a find" depends on who you ask. There isn't 100% agreement on what constitutes a find among cache hiders and cache seekers.

 

If you sign the log, Groundspeak considers it a find. You can log it online as a find.

 

If you don't sign the log, you might consider it a find, but the cache owner may not.

 

If you don't sign the log, you might consider it a find, and the cache owner may agree, thus you can log it as a find.

 

If you don't sign the log, you might not consider it a find, and the cache owner agrees that it's not a find, thus you shouldn't post a "Found It".

 

If you don't sign the log, you might not consider it a find, but the cache owner may still allow you to log it as a find.

 

Whether or not you sign the physical log, or not, it doesn't matter what any else (other that yourself, the cache owner, and groundspeaks) thinks about whether or not it's a find.

 

That about covers it, I think.

[+NeverSummer]

I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook. People do this all the time when they forget a pen. As a cache owner, it's good enough for me. However, if someone were to delete my log for not signing, they would be within their rights, however I have never hear of anybody doing that, at least not where I live.

If it was my cache and you logged a find I would delete your log in a heart beat. Theres a big difference of forgetting/losing a pen and having the cache in hand than being able to see the cache and log a find. But you can play how you want to.

 

I agree...if the cache was up a tree. Would you prefer under this circumstance for me to point out the cache to the muggles so they could get out of my way so I could make the grab and sign it?

How about come back another day when nobody was around and actually have the cache in hand and sign the log.

 

Seems like a waste of gas and time. If it seemed the CO really cared, I would go back and physically sign it. I just don't know anybody here that really cares.

Seems like a sense of entitlement to me. I've gone back to many caches because there were people at the GZ and I was unable to make the grab and sign the log and put the cache back. I care thats why I said something. To me it just seems like a lame excuse to log a find... I can see the cache but cant grab it because a muggle is there but I'm claiming a find. Like I said if thats how you want to play then so be it but I think that's one cheesy way to log a find.

I don't really see how this works. Perhaps we just do away with the "Stealth" attribute, and if you can see the cache in a muggle-dense area, you can just log a find?

 

That's a cop out. It takes work to find geocaches, and sometimes that work is waiting out a muggle. Sometimes it means coming back. Just because you can do it and the owner doesn't delete your log doesn't make it a "find" according to the guidelines.

 

But, really, the game is how you play it. It just makes me want to get out and audit my logbooks more often than I already do. (It used to be a bigger part of regular cache maintenance. Now, you can just place a cache, and leave it be. Ask other cachers to put in new logbooks, not audit the cache, or check on placement location...?)

[+Maconb]

 

I don't really see how this works. Perhaps we just do away with the "Stealth" attribute, and if you can see the cache in a muggle-dense area, you can just log a find?

 

That's a cop out. It takes work to find geocaches, and sometimes that work is waiting out a muggle. Sometimes it means coming back. Just because you can do it and the owner doesn't delete your log doesn't make it a "find" according to the guidelines.

 

But, really, the game is how you play it. It just makes me want to get out and audit my logbooks more often than I already do. (It used to be a bigger part of regular cache maintenance. Now, you can just place a cache, and leave it be. Ask other cachers to put in new logbooks, not audit the cache, or check on placement location...?)

Read my above comments. Basically at the time I was a little wet behind the ears. After playing for a while I sought advice on the matter and made what I think is the right move on this.

[+NeverSummer]

 

I don't really see how this works. Perhaps we just do away with the "Stealth" attribute, and if you can see the cache in a muggle-dense area, you can just log a find?

 

That's a cop out. It takes work to find geocaches, and sometimes that work is waiting out a muggle. Sometimes it means coming back. Just because you can do it and the owner doesn't delete your log doesn't make it a "find" according to the guidelines.

 

But, really, the game is how you play it. It just makes me want to get out and audit my logbooks more often than I already do. (It used to be a bigger part of regular cache maintenance. Now, you can just place a cache, and leave it be. Ask other cachers to put in new logbooks, not audit the cache, or check on placement location...?)

Read my above comments. Basically at the time I was a little wet behind the ears. After playing for a while I sought advice on the matter and made what I think is the right move on this.

No, no, don't get me wrong. I get your part. I was asking The_Incredibles what they meant. Sorry to confuse the subject.

[AZcachemeister]

 

you also got our respect,

 

Thats what I was going for.

 

You had my respect just for bringing it up.

You didn't need to subscribe to my version of reality to get it, either.

[+Maconb]

 

You didn't need to subscribe to my version of reality to get it, either.

 

To be sure your version is as navigable as mine. LOL

 

Side note. how do I put quotes on the bottom of my post like you have.

[+niraD]

Side note. how do I put quotes on the bottom of my post like you have.

This Help Center article may help: Changes: Avatar, Title, Signature.

[AZcachemeister]

Side note. how do I put quotes on the bottom of my post like you have.

This Help Center article may help: Changes: Avatar, Title, Signature.

 

Be sure to note that you will need to log out, and then back in to have them show up.

 

Also, please use something clever, witty, and informative.

[4wheelin_fool]

I would log it as a find, with a mention in my log as to the circumstances and why I didn't sign the logbook. People do this all the time when they forget a pen. As a cache owner, it's good enough for me. However, if someone were to delete my log for not signing, they would be within their rights, however I have never hear of anybody doing that, at least not where I live.

If it was my cache and you logged a find I would delete your log in a heart beat. Theres a big difference of forgetting/losing a pen and having the cache in hand than being able to see the cache and log a find. But you can play how you want to.

 

I agree...if the cache was up a tree. Would you prefer under this circumstance for me to point out the cache to the muggles so they could get out of my way so I could make the grab and sign it?

How about come back another day when nobody was around and actually have the cache in hand and sign the log.

 

Seems like a waste of gas and time. If it seemed the CO really cared, I would go back and physically sign it. I just don't know anybody here that really cares.

Seems like a sense of entitlement to me. I've gone back to many caches because there were people at the GZ and I was unable to make the grab and sign the log and put the cache back. I care thats why I said something. To me it just seems like a lame excuse to log a find... I can see the cache but cant grab it because a muggle is there but I'm claiming a find. Like I said if thats how you want to play then so be it but I think that's one cheesy way to log a find.

I don't really see how this works. Perhaps we just do away with the "Stealth" attribute, and if you can see the cache in a muggle-dense area, you can just log a find?

 

That's a cop out. It takes work to find geocaches, and sometimes that work is waiting out a muggle. Sometimes it means coming back. Just because you can do it and the owner doesn't delete your log doesn't make it a "find" according to the guidelines.

 

But, really, the game is how you play it. It just makes me want to get out and audit my logbooks more often than I already do. (It used to be a bigger part of regular cache maintenance. Now, you can just place a cache, and leave it be. Ask other cachers to put in new logbooks, not audit the cache, or check on placement location...?)

 

There was a cache that I found which was hidden on a bush in a shopping center. It took a lot longer than usual, and quite a few logs said it was difficult. When I found it, I was amazed that the paper log was so short compared to the online notes. I then checked and discovered quite a few people had never signed in (about 40%). I made a note of it, and photographed the log and left. I know that perhaps a few people may not have liked that, but why bother even looking for it, if you are going to get frustrated and log it anyhow? If I couldn't find it, I would have just put it on ignore and moved on.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I searched and searched then as I looked up in the corner of the shelter I saw, in plain sight, a large pill bottle wrapped in camouflage tape with the word in black marker "GEOCACHE". I was right on GZ but the only way to get to the cache was to step on a guy and ruin his Facebook session. I marked this as a find. Was I in the wrong to do this?

 

There are definitely some geocachers that would say this was not a find. I am not among them.

 

Unless the cache was up a tree you couldn't climb or there was some extra challenge to getting the log after the container was found (combo lock, cache was an ammo can full of film cans only one of which contained the log) then physically seeing the container where I know I could retrieve it is enough for me in a situation like this. If I had any doubt (ex: if you saw a pill pottle but it wasn't camo'd or marked it could have just been trash, not the cache) then I would not log a Find.

 

(If there wasn't a muggle present in the situation described then I would retrieve the cache and sign the physical log. Skipping the physical long signing is an infrequent exception for me, not my usual practical.)

[+the4dirtydogs]

I searched and searched then as I looked up in the corner of the shelter I saw, in plain sight, a large pill bottle wrapped in camouflage tape with the word in black marker "GEOCACHE". I was right on GZ but the only way to get to the cache was to step on a guy and ruin his Facebook session. I marked this as a find. Was I in the wrong to do this?

 

There are definitely some geocachers that would say this was not a find. I am not among them.

 

Unless the cache was up a tree you couldn't climb or there was some extra challenge to getting the log after the container was found (combo lock, cache was an ammo can full of film cans only one of which contained the log) then physically seeing the container where I know I could retrieve it is enough for me in a situation like this. If I had any doubt (ex: if you saw a pill pottle but it wasn't camo'd or marked it could have just been trash, not the cache) then I would not log a Find.

 

(If there wasn't a muggle present in the situation described then I would retrieve the cache and sign the physical log. Skipping the physical long signing is an infrequent exception for me, not my usual practical.)

Man thats some pretty crazy logic right here. If you can see the one in the tree why not log that as a find. You might as well log all the caches you drive by.

[+Legochugglers]

I was reading some older threads and it got me thinking. I have been caching for a few months now. I have 259 finds but one has always bothered me. I went to a small park in a city not to far from home where I saw there had 3 caches placed. I searched and searched for one. And I came up empty It was found and had been found recently and consistently so I didn't log it as a DNF because I knew it had to be there but my "virgin" eyes couldn't find it. The second cache was in the middle of a swamp and I didn't want to get me feet wet so I didn't log that as a DNF because I didn't even get within 60 yards of the GZ before I turned around.... But the third cache is what has haunted me. In this park there were kids playing and what not and there was a nice shelter that for some reason seemed to be a place to sit and play on there computers. I searched and searched then as I looked up in the corner of the shelter I saw, in plain sight, a large pill bottle wrapped in camouflage tape with the word in black marker "GEOCACHE". I was right on GZ but the only way to get to the cache was to step on a guy and ruin his Facebook session. I marked this as a find. Was I in the wrong to do this?

 

If he was logged on to his computer you should have engaged him in conversation and directed him to Geocaching.com. You could then have shown him the cache in question and the information on-line.You could then have got him to allow you to log your find on his computer, set up an account for him and then you could have helped him log his first ever find. Jobs a good 'un.

[+dprovan]

There was a cache that I found which was hidden on a bush in a shopping center. It took a lot longer than usual, and quite a few logs said it was difficult. When I found it, I was amazed that the paper log was so short compared to the online notes. I then checked and discovered quite a few people had never signed in (about 40%). I made a note of it, and photographed the log and left. I know that perhaps a few people may not have liked that, but why bother even looking for it, if you are going to get frustrated and log it anyhow? If I couldn't find it, I would have just put it on ignore and moved on.

More likely one person got frustrated and dropped a throw-down as a "replacement", then the rest of those 40% got fooled by the throw-down. Unless, of course, you were the one fooled by the throw-down, and the 40% are the ones that found the original container...

[+Harry Dolphin]

But the third cache is what has haunted me. In this park there were kids playing and what not and there was a nice shelter that for some reason seemed to be a place to sit and play on there computers. I searched and searched then as I looked up in the corner of the shelter I saw, in plain sight, a large pill bottle wrapped in camouflage tape with the word in black marker "GEOCACHE". I was right on GZ but the only way to get to the cache was to step on a guy and ruin his Facebook session. I marked this as a find. Was I in the wrong to do this?

 

In my book, that would be a DNF. Have I mentioned the time I was looking for a cache near a popular gazebo in the park? Two parents were sitting in the gazzebo, with the daughter sleeping nearby. Two cachers from another state saw us looking. I got their help. They stood on the path, pointed into the lake and yelled: Look at that? Everyone's eyes turned, and I colimbed over the sleeping girl, and retrieved the cache! A second round , and I was able to replace the cache.

Another time, we were looking for a nano on a sign, with people waiting for seats at the nearby restaurant. I put my backpack on the ground,and tied my shoelaces, retrieving the cache. With a lady leaning on the sign a few feet away. Repeat, tying other she, and replaced the cache.

[+briansnat]

I marked this as a find. Was I in the wrong to do this?

 

What constitutes a "find" is between your conscience and the cache owner. I had a find I logged as part of a group hunt. I was so uncomfortable with it that that several years after the fact I changed my find log to a note. Bottom line is that if you feel guilty, follow your conscience.

[+GoleeMD]

I'll add my 2 cents here. While I don't agree with the strict dogmatic folks who argue that you MUST sign the log to claim a find, I do agree that every reasonable attempt to sign the log should be made and that just seeing a container from a distance (even a short one) is not enough to claim a find, particularly if that short distance makes all the difference in the intent of the CO for how the cache should be found.

 

For example, there is a cache near me that is plainly visible 15' up in a tree, and the point of the 4 star rating is to climb up and get it. I saw the container from 15' away, but no way could I justify claiming a find without hauling myself up there to get it. Also, there is a 5/5 cache near me that is a kayak cache, that I could get to within 10' of from the shore and see it plain as day on a log sticking out into the creek. Same deal. I wouldn't even feel right wading out to grab that one, which I could probably do, because that's not how the CO intended it.

 

Now in the case presented in the OP, I would say that every attempt to sign the log wasn't made and that the cacher should post a note and return later to sign the log, or wait out the muggles, or find a clever way to get to it without compromising the cache. That's part of the game. The only exception I could think of to the situation above is if there's no reasonable way for the cacher to return later (on a road trip and just passing through, for example), and then send an email to CO to make sure that claiming a find is ok under the circumstances. Even then, I don't think I'd do that (I'd just post a note and leave it unfound), but if the CO is ok with it I don't think that's a problem. For example, I have a cache that requires a short climb, but since I want as many people as possible to try my caches, I've stated in the cache page that if someone cannot physically retrieve the container because of a disability, then they can email me with a description of the container and where is it located and the reason why they can't get it, and I'd consider allowing them to claim it.

 

As for wet logs, I think it's perfectly acceptable to claim a find if the log is soaked beyond being able to sign. I still make a feeble attempt to make a mark on it and then report it in my "found it" log. I don't like the "I forgot a pen so I didn't sign but I took a picture of the log" excuse though. Even though the result is the same, that one just rubs me the wrong way. Come better prepared.

 

Ok, off my soapbox now...