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Electric Box Caches


Maconb

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How does everybody feel about caches that are meant to look like an electrical panel of an outlet of some sort. I see that its done a lot but I have mixed feelings about it. I work for an electric company and can see the danger in placing caches such as these. I wouldn't want a cacher especially a child sticking their hands were they don't belong. That just my thoughts on it. I know that its legal but shouldn't people take this into consideration. I know there are many more examples that could be named other than electrical hazards like busy roads and the like just wanted to get a feel for what the majority thought.

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How does everybody feel about caches that are meant to look like an electrical panel of an outlet of some sort. I see that its done a lot but I have mixed feelings about it. I work for an electric company and can see the danger in placing caches such as these. I wouldn't want a cacher especially a child sticking their hands were they don't belong. That just my thoughts on it. I know that its legal but shouldn't people take this into consideration. I know there are many more examples that could be named other than electrical hazards like busy roads and the like just wanted to get a feel for what the majority thought.

 

Unless a post comes in before I hit "enter", I get to be the first person to link to JohnnyGeo's Electrical Safety Blog :laughing:

 

This is actually a very controversial subject, with threads that drone on for days or weeks. You'll have "supporters", but the majority think it's no big deal, and are OK with it. :blink:

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How does everybody feel about caches that are meant to look like an electrical panel of an outlet of some sort. I see that its done a lot but I have mixed feelings about it. I work for an electric company and can see the danger in placing caches such as these. I wouldn't want a cacher especially a child sticking their hands were they don't belong. That just my thoughts on it. I know that its legal but shouldn't people take this into consideration. I know there are many more examples that could be named other than electrical hazards like busy roads and the like just wanted to get a feel for what the majority thought.

I found one recently, a hinged plastic box with a latch, secured at the base of a utility pole using plastic ties, and there's a light at the top of the pole making electrical zapping sounds (nice touch!). AND it's about 220 feet from a Sheriff's office, in view of someone at a desk. So of course I opened the box. Like a moron. Turns out, it was the cache! The single ziplock bag is removable, the box stays put. Next time I see something like that, I think I'll pass.

Edited by kunarion
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I'm not a fan because of the obvious risk of a cacher opening something that isn't a fake.

 

Also be mindful of the location.

 

Even some veterian cachers in my area have shied away from my convent cache as it's a few feet in the front yard of the former convent.

 

For those wondering, I placed that cache with approval (from the wife)

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Geocaches made to look like electrical boxes aren't as bad as electrical boxes made to look like geocaches. I encountered an ammo box strapped to the side of a utility pole, as a makeshift electrical box, out in the woods. I wouldn't dare place a geocache near it, because someone's going to see that thing and think it's the cache. Not everyone reads the cache page, so I wouldn't trust a warning on the cache page to be enough.

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We see a lot of these types around here. Generally, they are either electrical outlet boxes or just the cover plate attached with magnets. Both are OK to me as long as I don't have to use a screwdriver to remove the cover plate. If it doesn't come off using a fingernail I assume it's a real box and I look elsewhere. Depends on the location of the box, of course. If it's mounted on a tree in the woods, then I know it's not "live". But if it's on a light pole or transformer box that's active, it's the fingernail test.

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Cachers being shocked? I know of none. But I've read where people have been-even though they were not inside of it. Probably from our friend in Edmonton(limked in the 2nd post) What it comes down to is if you feel it's not safe, don't hide or find it. I have felt a bit nervous. The one I can think of is at the bottom of a power pole, wouldn't have gone for it if one of the wires didn't have a geocaching sticker on it. A LnL at the bottom, under the lip, of a "green box" is different than say hiding it in a panel or something you have to play around with it.

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Let me raise a question that I think is still on topic. I (not we 'cause Shark is the smart one) have hunted tough hides that were in the vicinity of electrical boxes etc. Throughout the process, I can't help but give into the temptation and poke and pry (no damage) the electrical stuff with a stick. Later, I know it's stupid, but half the brain turns off when I'm at one of my nemesis caches. Anyone else out there turn dumb when caching sometimes?

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I think caches on electrical power boxes and the like are the worst type of hide in so many ways. A LPC may be dull or boring, but I feel decently safe doing those at least, not a power box or circuit breaker etc etc.

 

Those little fake magnetic outlet boxes though are pretty benign if you ask me, especially if in a very visible spot.

 

Am talking about the ones you actually could open up the power box, or get a big static shock, or feel you could look like you are messing with the power cables of a business, etc.

Edited by lamoracke
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Yeah I get the whole "outlet attached to a tree cache" but I don't understand one placed beside a real outlet. Seems more dangerous than a railroad track but I get that too. The fact is I am a 31 year old man having a blast playing a game that children play as well. So even though I have never said this in my life.... Think about the children. Like I said this is not just an electrical cache problem its a safety issue for many levels. Like the guardrail on a country road is always a good spot, though mundane, for a cache but a guardrail on a 4 lane. That’s a different story. I wouldn't send my kids across the road to get that...unless they were really fast.

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Permission issues aside...they ARE NOT DANGEROUS.

 

A daycare center near my house has a ground-mounted transformer box inside their fenced play area.

No toddlers have been fried to date.

 

If they ARE so dangerous, why do they place them around in accessible locations where any jacktard can walk up and get zapped? Wouldn't the liability insurance skyrocket requiring something be done to prevent all these un-necessary barbeque incidents?

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Permission issues aside...they ARE NOT DANGEROUS.

 

A daycare center near my house has a ground-mounted transformer box inside their fenced play area.

No toddlers have been fried to date.

 

If they ARE so dangerous, why do they place them around in accessible locations where any jacktard can walk up and get zapped? Wouldn't the liability insurance skyrocket requiring something be done to prevent all these un-necessary barbeque incidents?

As far as a pad-mount transformer goes they are pretty safe to be around. I have installed and worked on quite a few of them. Only saw one on fire.... Not a good night. And they are supposed to have at least two locking mechanisms on them so yeah they are pretty safe. But "Uncle Joe's wood shed" that Uncle Joe wired up himself because he "seen it on that show" might not be the safest form of electricity.

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So even though I have never said this in my life.... Think about the children.

That should be the parents job, not the cache owners. Caches aren't required to be safe.

 

Permission issues aside...they ARE NOT DANGEROUS.

 

A daycare center near my house has a ground-mounted transformer box inside their fenced play area.

No toddlers have been fried to date.

 

If they ARE so dangerous, why do they place them around in accessible locations where any jacktard can walk up and get zapped? Wouldn't the liability insurance skyrocket requiring something be done to prevent all these un-necessary barbeque incidents?

As far as a pad-mount transformer goes they are pretty safe to be around. I have installed and worked on quite a few of them. Only saw one on fire.... Not a good night. And they are supposed to have at least two locking mechanisms on them so yeah they are pretty safe. But "Uncle Joe's wood shed" that Uncle Joe wired up himself because he "seen it on that show" might not be the safest form of electricity.

:blink: Huh? I thought the discussion was about hiding caches on electrical equipment, not Billy Bob's wired up chicken shack. How many Uncle Joe's wood sheds do you have near you that have caches on them?

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That should be the parents job, not the cache owners. Caches aren't required to be safe.

 

Groundspeak does not review caches for safety but I trust that most people would not want to see someone hurt if a cache was placed in an accessible but dangerous location. And if I could show that you were grossly negligent in placing a cache, that line would not do you much good in the event of an accident. Still, for the most part there is probably little danger as long as people do not open a live box or reach into live wires. So for me it is usually an issue of permission.

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ANY geocache is potentially dangerous,

if the person seeking it is compleetly ignorant to any kinds of normal thinking..

like look carefully when you cross a road,

dont open a box if it is locked,

dont touch wires looking like live,

if a box dont have a geo sticker, it is not a geocache,

and so on..

use your brain folks, I know it is there, deep inside....

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Electrical devices installed by qualified professionals are quite safe to the general public. If it has a lock on it leave the lock alone. If you see bare copper leave it alone. Leave the screwdriver in the car. If it's installed outside and it is not grounded properly rainfall would have most likely already have shorted it out. The other day there was a water main break in my neighborhood. A river of water flowing across the grass, with a residental pad transformer right in the middle. Probably serving my residence. Not a flicker or a whimper.

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How does everybody feel about caches that are meant to look like an electrical panel of an outlet of some sort. I see that its done a lot but I have mixed feelings about it. I work for an electric company and can see the danger in placing caches such as these. I wouldn't want a cacher especially a child sticking their hands were they don't belong. That just my thoughts on it. I know that its legal but shouldn't people take this into consideration. I know there are many more examples that could be named other than electrical hazards like busy roads and the like just wanted to get a feel for what the majority thought.

 

First, let's leave children out of this argument. Children don't cache alone. Parents need to use situations like that as a great teaching experience. Using "it isn't safe for the children" is a suprious argument; a red herring that does nothing but bring emotion into a discussion like this. If children are going to play with electrical equipment, it isn't going to be because they found a geocache that looked like one, and hence felt safe playing with a real one.

 

I have found many caches that were disguised to look like outlets and hidden on transformers and so-on. I have never found one that wasn't obvious once I gently checked it. The fake outlets and cover plates that I've found have all been attached magnetically, and can be detected by sliding them. A real outlet or cover plate is screwed in place and won't slide or lift off without unscrewing.

 

In addition, many of us don't want geocaching to be another nanny game with all sorts of safety protections built in for us. We feel that we can think for ourselves and decide for ourselves which risks we want to take.

 

In the 10+ years that geocaching has been around, I have never, ever, ever heard of one incident of somebody being electrocuted by something that they thought was a geocache, but wasn't. We have, in these forums, heard of a few other unfortunate accidents that took the lives of some cachers, but not for reasons in any way related to fake electrical equipment.

 

You asked for opinions... here's my bottom line: there are far too many more important things to worry about fake electrical hide geocaches.

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I think the "adequate permission" guideline should cover it.

 

Personally, I've never found a cache that looked like electrical equipment that I couldn't verify as fake before opening it (or doing anything else that would have been dangerous had it been real).

 

I've found at least one in a light pole with live electric. Not a good hide and I think I commented as such.

 

Encouraging people to stick their fingers where live current exists is quite reckless behavior.

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Caches made to appear like electrical equipment are fine most of the time. It's the ones hidden amongst live wires that I find stupid.

 

there should be "like" button for comments like this.

 

There are plenty of fake junction boxes and wall plates that function well as a cache. Sometimes a cacher may fool with actual electrical equipment and discover live wires and immediately realize at that point that the cache is not there. Either way, there is very little hazard.

 

In contrast, there are the caches that are hidden among live wires. These are usually inside of high voltage lampposts, not under any benign skirt, but behind a metal plate. Sometimes they are inside of active high voltage junction boxes. These not only are dangerous, but encourage cachers to root around in places where caches should never be.

 

Cachers that encounter live wires usually stop and realize there is not a cache there. However, once they discover that there are some caches hidden among live wires, the likelihood of dismantling actual electrical equipment increases. Then, when live wires are discovered, that does not deter them, as they keep looking. Sometimes they screw everything back together, but often don't. The next cacher will then check there also if it is dismantled. This shows a very basic disrespect for the owner of the equipment who is unlikely to give any permission for anything to be hidden there. Something magnetically attached, or obviously fake, may get snickered at by the electrician. However, once they have to go out and repair everything, they are likely to get annoyed and agitated.

 

I suppose that once someone does get injured, then there will be some blanket rules enacted, either at the request of the electric company, by local law enforcement, or Groundspeak themselves. At that point, all harmless electrical caches will be in jeopardy of archival, and all the little fun we had with them will be over. Perhaps a lawsuit by grieving parents will be found to not have any merit, but the negative publicity, and the costs of hiring a lawyer to defend it may do plenty of damage.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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I gotta go with the disagreement with them, albeit it's just my opinion. I'm an electrical engineer, and if you've never seen NFPA-70E training videos, you should. Those are definitely not recommended for young audiences. As for a magnetic container stuck on the side of a steel post, I have no issue with that, so long is that it is placed where nothing else can be opened with bare hands that may contain energized conductors. The LPC caches are easy enough to determine if they're safe. Simplly look up and see if the lights are on. Most parking lot lighting is 277V or 480V, and is operated by contactors inside the nearby buildings. Lights off, contactor's dropped out. That said, though, the contactor could close at any time, and if there's a chafed wire under that lampskirt, you may have just put your life on the line. Is a film can under a lampskirt worth it?

 

Worse yet, though, IMHO, and at the risk of hijacking, but along the same lines, guard rail hides on busy roads are perhaps the most dangerous hides. A shock from most commercial or residential distribution voltage levels MIGHT kill you if you touch a bare conductor. A cement truck running 55 mph WILL kill you if it touches you. We all assume risks when hunting geocaches. The best advice is don't hunt "over your head". I know nothing about rappelling, and there are three caches that require that activity within 3 miles of my house. I love difficult caches, but I know my limits and won't attempt anything I have no training for the activities required, especially not alone. Fake covers on distribution panels bother me a lot less than LPC's because most of the time, if those are outside, the panels are normally are locked shut or have enough protective covers in place to protect unqualified persons from injuring themselves. Older applications may not be as good as newer stuff, but, finder beware. I would have even less problem with one of the fake bolt hides on a 115KV distribution line tower, unless someone climbed part way up to increase the terrain rating. There's a reason that line is hung that high. A cache with an electrical fixture camouflage bothers me a lot less if it was hidden by someone with an electrical background. It's the fake outlet covers available for anyone to hide, and placed by unqualified persons that scare me.

 

There are lots of different hides that are dangerous, in different ways. Some innocuous hides get extremely dangerous when stinging insects build nearby and get territorial, or when Mr. NoShoulders decides to den next to the cache. The main thing is BE AWARE of where you are at all times, and while you're thinking outside the box, make sure you're thinking about staying out of a box too. Bottom line, THINK before you touch. Treat EVERY LPC as if it's got a giant wasp nest under it and your life depends on not being stung. NEVER open any electrical panel that you cannot determine if energized conductors are present. If it's that important to find, make sure you have someone qualified with you while you search to keep you alive.

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I gotta go with the disagreement with them, albeit it's just my opinion. I'm an electrical engineer, and if you've never seen NFPA-70E training videos, you should. Those are definitely not recommended for young audiences. As for a magnetic container stuck on the side of a steel post, I have no issue with that, so long is that it is placed where nothing else can be opened with bare hands that may contain energized conductors. The LPC caches are easy enough to determine if they're safe. Simplly look up and see if the lights are on. Most parking lot lighting is 277V or 480V, and is operated by contactors inside the nearby buildings. Lights off, contactor's dropped out. That said, though, the contactor could close at any time, and if there's a chafed wire under that lampskirt, you may have just put your life on the line. Is a film can under a lampskirt worth it?

 

Worse yet, though, IMHO, and at the risk of hijacking, but along the same lines, guard rail hides on busy roads are perhaps the most dangerous hides. A shock from most commercial or residential distribution voltage levels MIGHT kill you if you touch a bare conductor. A cement truck running 55 mph WILL kill you if it touches you. We all assume risks when hunting geocaches. The best advice is don't hunt "over your head". I know nothing about rappelling, and there are three caches that require that activity within 3 miles of my house. I love difficult caches, but I know my limits and won't attempt anything I have no training for the activities required, especially not alone. Fake covers on distribution panels bother me a lot less than LPC's because most of the time, if those are outside, the panels are normally are locked shut or have enough protective covers in place to protect unqualified persons from injuring themselves. Older applications may not be as good as newer stuff, but, finder beware. I would have even less problem with one of the fake bolt hides on a 115KV distribution line tower, unless someone climbed part way up to increase the terrain rating. There's a reason that line is hung that high. A cache with an electrical fixture camouflage bothers me a lot less if it was hidden by someone with an electrical background. It's the fake outlet covers available for anyone to hide, and placed by unqualified persons that scare me.

 

There are lots of different hides that are dangerous, in different ways. Some innocuous hides get extremely dangerous when stinging insects build nearby and get territorial, or when Mr. NoShoulders decides to den next to the cache. The main thing is BE AWARE of where you are at all times, and while you're thinking outside the box, make sure you're thinking about staying out of a box too. Bottom line, THINK before you touch. Treat EVERY LPC as if it's got a giant wasp nest under it and your life depends on not being stung. NEVER open any electrical panel that you cannot determine if energized conductors are present. If it's that important to find, make sure you have someone qualified with you while you search to keep you alive.

 

Good all around common sense advice!

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Electrical devices installed by qualified professionals are quite safe to the general public.

 

Not always

http://seattletimes....1882_dog30.html

The writer of that article is a moron. There was no electricity left inside that dog. Electricity doesn't stay anywhere, except in batteries or in a capacitor, and then, it better be DC. A dog is neither battery nor capacitor, and most street lighting operates on 277 or 480 Volts AC. If the would-be rescuers of the dog received electrical shock by touching the animal, it was quite clearly still in contact with the junction box in the sidewalk. It's very possible the box in the sidewalk was plastic, but had a metal (usually brass) cover, and it also quite possibly filled with water which could have possibly caused the cover to become energized, but may not have tripped a ground-fault device, which all lighting exposed to public areas SHOULD be equipped with. However, when the dog came in contact with the cover and received the shock, IF there were a GFCI, it should have operated before electrocuting the dog. Even though the enclosure was mounted in a concrete sidewalk, the voltage on the cover should have been relatively insignificant with respect to ground unless it was incredibly dry weather. One part of the article talks about the cover on the sidewalk, the next talks about a nearby lamp post. What did they do, prop the dog against the post while trying to resuscitate him? Something VERY fishy with this, and sounds to me like a moron told another moron something, and it got REALLY screwed up by the time it hit the papers.

 

The point that "electrical devices installed by qualified professionals are quite safe to the general public" is a generically good statement, and we in the electrical industry would like to believe that, too. However, I must point out there are varying degrees of professionalism, experience, and quality of installation, all of which could have resulted in that dog storing electricity. Other factors will include quality of the devices and wiring. ANYTHING can fail to operate. I don't buy all I read in that article. I would point very squarely back at the city for taking ownership of the lighting system without first inspecting it, 100%, especially in a place where public exposure to it would increase the city's liability risk.

 

By the way, I'm an electrical engineer with well over 30 years experience in industrial services including power generation/distribution. If that dog was storing electricity, I want a whole pack of 'em to connect between my meter and distribution panel. I've never seen electric dogs. Eels, yes, dogs, no. Then again, it could have been RoboDog, or perhaps the T4000 version of the Terminator. Doginator. Not trying to make light of the girl's loss of her dog, but definitely taking a poke at a stupid reporter.

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>I've found at least one in a light pole with live electric.

>Not a good hide and I think I commented as such.

 

All lightpoles are made of metal,

the wires to the lamp on the top, goes inside them,

this wire must be isolated, and the pole must be ground-earth connected

to protect people touching leaning against on purpose or not on purpose

from getting any kinds of residual curents of dangerous levels.

if you did feel a slight current ? or even a hurting current ?

you should contact the areas manager, so they can get it FIXED..

if there is a cache in the lamp post, you should offcourse also warn other seekers.

 

>Encouraging people to stick their fingers where live current exists is quite reckless behavior.

 

Live currents are only present if TWO errors on the equipment exist at the same time

in broken, defective, equipment..

Lamp posts are normally inspected, maintained and keept in good working order,

any one can touch them, they are at ALL parking lots, all over..

I guess geocachers mess with lamp posts yes offcourse, but MANY more people touch them too

Edited by OZ2CPU
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by the way :

if you feel unsure if any metal parts out there are safe to touch, DONT !!

check with a volt stick BEFORE you touch anything at all,

 

and also NEWER stick your hands or fingers inside areas where you can not see is safe too,

electricity is not the only killer out there.

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When in doubt, poke it with a stick.

You can search the forums for the pics of my snakebit finger.

 

I've found dozens, maybe hundreds of caches on and around electrical equipment. I've never been encouraged to dismantle anything, except for one well done cache. It was made up to look like an outdoor outlet coming up out of the ground on some conduit. But the geocaching logo was on the box, and a small phillips head screwdriver was velcro'd to the back of it. So I was pretty confident it was the cache and not anything really connected to the grid. I'v seen a few that were made to look like scrap conduit at deceased bus stops and former fast food sites. But it was pretty clear that those too were trash camo jobs and not part of the grid.

 

We don't need more guidelines, personal safety should be the responsibility of the cache seeker.

Edited by wimseyguy
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I find it a bit odd that caches get archived for using small nails, as well as being buried, to the point of fake sprinkler heads being disallowed due to land manager perceptions, but caches hidden among live wires are fine. Putting aside the electric company's perception, what about the public's in the event of injury? Keep in mind that I'm not talking about fake junction boxes, wall plates, or keyholders on the outside of transformers, which I think are fine. I'm talking about caches hidden among live wires. Common sense would say its a bad idea.

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I find it a bit odd that caches get archived for using small nails, as well as being buried, to the point of fake sprinkler heads being disallowed due to land manager perceptions, but caches hidden among live wires are fine.
At the very least, I would think a cache hidden among live wires would call into question whether the CO really has adequate permission. But are there really so many caches hidden among live wires that Groundspeak needs to specifically mention this situation in the guidelines?

 

I haven't seen this supposed plague of caches hidden among live wires. Fake junction boxes, fake wall plates, various magnetic caches placed on the outside of transformers or control boxes, caches under lamp post skirts... sure. But among live wires? No.

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I think caches on electrical power boxes and the like are the worst type of hide in so many ways. A LPC may be dull or boring, but I feel decently safe doing those at least, not a power box or circuit breaker etc etc.

 

Those little fake magnetic outlet boxes though are pretty benign if you ask me, especially if in a very visible spot.

 

Am talking about the ones you actually could open up the power box, or get a big static shock, or feel you could look like you are messing with the power cables of a business, etc.

 

I'm not an electrician, but I know some of those parking lot lights are 480 volts. Just say'n.

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I find it a bit odd that caches get archived for using small nails, as well as being buried, to the point of fake sprinkler heads being disallowed due to land manager perceptions, but caches hidden among live wires are fine. Putting aside the electric company's perception, what about the public's in the event of injury? Keep in mind that I'm not talking about fake junction boxes, wall plates, or keyholders on the outside of transformers, which I think are fine. I'm talking about caches hidden among live wires. Common sense would say its a bad idea.

 

You've been around long enough to know the answer to that. Nails in trees, etc. have caused actual problems with land managers refusing caches entirely in their parks. No real-life situation has occurred with fake electrical equipment.

 

By the way, I think that most of us agree with you about caches hidden amongst live wires (or even wires that appear to be live) but that really is not what the thread is about, from the way I read it. The OP is referring to fake electrical outlets and such. No live wires there.

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