"What the game once was"

[+niraD]

What is or isn't a powertrail.

 

I'm planning a seires/trail that will be 33 miles long. It will have at least 70 caches maybe up to 100. It follows an old highway that has been replace with a new straight high speed 4 lane road. All the caches will be the largest I can hide at eache site. At least a small and even a couple of larges.

Part of the trail will be on a closed section that you must either walk or bike. There will be at least one cemetery cache. One will be at a place where a man collects and displays old signs. Some will be on of near old brigdes.

Is this a powertrail?

It sounds like an old-school power trail. There's one in this area that is sometimes used for the parks department's geocaching classes. I helped lead a group of newbies for one of those classes, and it was a lot of fun. With a couple hours of hiking, they could experience 8-10 different caches, with a variety of sizes and hide styles.

 

It definitely isn't a modern numbers run trail though.

[+NeverSummer]

I started searching in the dusty part of the forums and came across this piece. Read it. Get some context from just 5 years ago. Seems like forever...

 

It's amazing what you can learn about the past by actually being there, and also reading about it right from the writings of those that were there. Good to know my memory isn't so bad after all...

[+Roman!]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

Edited November 28, 2012 by Roman!

[cezanne]

to all the powertrail haters:

did you ever try one ?

 

 

There really are very few, if any, "micro haters", (people who hate all micros) although that term is thrown around here a lot. I believe there are also very few, if any "powertrail haters". I for one, could be considered a roadside micro power trail hater, and it sounds as if the OP is also.

 

Actually, when my own caching is regarded I do not enjoy powertrails at all regardless of where they are located and whether they are of the numbers run style or are what someone called old-school powertrails along hiking trails. I almost exclusively cache alone and find it tiresome to search and log many caches on one day and I also like to write one or very few detailed online logs that account for my overall experience, but are cache specific. Some weeks ago I did a series of 25 mystery caches hidden along a hiking trail along which thereafter further 5 caches have been hidden. After about 10 caches I already got tired of searching and at home it was annoying to write the logs and not as enjoyable as it is for me when I write a log for a 20 hiking multi cache. I could not remember what I saw where which does not play a role for the multi cache, but did play a role in this case (at least for me - the other visitors just post very short logs for the caches except the so-called bonus which is however independent of the other caches and does not lie at the end of the trail, but somewhere in the middle where one is not supposed to start).

Leaving out caches among the caches of such a series is not a feasible solution for me. It does not solve my problem with the fact that the logs will not account for the experience provided just by the concerned cache.

 

In my experience, powertrails mainly appeal to those who are not going for them alone. I'm currently working on a long distance multi cache that requires a hike of at least 170km - for me it will end up to be much more as I cannot walk distances of 30km and I need to invest more time to reach the route again from the nearest possible starting point. This type of caching appeals much more to me - it is well suited for an outtime from daily life when one wants to be on one's own which is typically the case when I go caching. Socializing is not what I want to do when I go caching.

 

Cezanne

[+NeverSummer]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

This post has been edited by Roman!: Today, 01:55 AM

You edited it to say that?

 

To answer (what I think) your question (is), we have no idea why it changed. I'm sure we can all guess, but we are doing only that.

 

What I noticed is that most folks I know who joined around my time learned to geocache from the "old timers"--those that joined 2000-2003 or so. We respected them, and appreciated their input. From asking about cache placements, to joining in some back-patting over a milestone find, we wanted to learn from them and keep making the game fun for ourselves and those around us. Innovations happened in the process, and more and more people joined the game. As more joined, more learned from newer people, and the game became diluted bit by bit. Cache areas became saturated, and the remaining places were filled with other caches--some of less-than-nice quality or forethought, and others with great innovation or creativity. Rather than acting as a community, people apparently disregarded the input of the "old timers" as "old people talking about the past."

 

Now, here we are. We are where we are. And, where we are is here. The close of 2012.

 

The question is, are we going to make a positive impact on the game, or not? Are we respectful, aware and knowledgeable about the game, or not? I've found that I respect the join date more than the find count nowadays. There was a time where I was in awe of both of those "stats". Now you, Roman!, have been in this game at a point where I was in April, 2006, according to join date here. (More like April 2003 if you consider when I found my first geocache in the fall of 2001.) That's 7 official years, 9 including those when I didn't have an account, and a lot of caches and official changes to the game ago. That's a lot of growth, participation and changes to this site ago. There's a lot of learning to be undertaken yet. There are far more people who have been here much longer than me. They might have some similar, and many different opinions than I have. But I respect them a lot. Have some respect.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Just like crappy caches there are crappy power trails, I did one too, but there are also good power trails, i have not met anyone who didn't enjoy the E.T. Highway, besides I'd rather be condemned to nothing but power trail than nothing but puzzles..

Is that because the E.T. Highway is an awesome caching experience...or because the majority of cachers who do the E.T. trail think the greatest thing in the world is the opportunity to rack up 1,500 finds in a day? My guess is the latter. If your goal is to get as many caches as you possibly can in 24 hours, you'd LOVE the E.T. highway. 

 

That's not to say it's not a great place to do some caching. I'd be riding in the same car as the Riffster...stopping every few miles for the scenery and whatever oddities there might be in the desert and snatching a cache or two as long as I'm stopped.

I have nothing against runs like this, but I would prefer to be in Riffster's car as well.  

 

If there's room in Riffster's car I'd like a spot in it as well.

Plenty of room! Homemade chocolate chip cookies in a Tupperware, classic rock on the stereo, a nice, dusty French red wine tucked away in the back for toasting the sunset/sunrise. Can you bring some authentic New York bagels for when our bellies commence grumbling?

 

 

I know just the place to get them...

 

I walked by a place in NYC last weekend that claimed to have the best cheesecake in the world. Hope you're not lactose intolerant. I could probably bring along some Finger Lakes Reisling.

 

I also would have loved to go on the multi-state caching and BBQ tour that BBW organized awhile back.

[+nthacker66]

What is or isn't a powertrail.

 

I'm planning a seires/trail that will be 33 miles long. It will have at least 70 caches maybe up to 100. It follows an old highway that has been replace with a new straight high speed 4 lane road. All the caches will be the largest I can hide at eache site. At least a small and even a couple of larges.

Part of the trail will be on a closed section that you must either walk or bike. There will be at least one cemetery cache. One will be at a place where a man collects and displays old signs. Some will be on of near old brigdes.

Is this a powertrail?

It sounds like an old-school power trail. There's one in this area that is sometimes used for the parks department's geocaching classes. I helped lead a group of newbies for one of those classes, and it was a lot of fun. With a couple hours of hiking, they could experience 8-10 different caches, with a variety of sizes and hide styles.

 

It definitely isn't a modern numbers run trail though.

 

It also does't sound like an "every 528 feet" trail. Everyone on here assumes (and apparently doesnt read) what I have been saying. I am not "against" powertrails if they are don't resposibly - just not saturation along roadsides. Taping up a pill bottle and sticking it "whatever is 528 feet ahead of the next one" is on a back road, is not only crappy caching, but is a potential detriment to the game for a number of reasons I already posted.

 

What the poster above is suggestion is something called "well thought" not only placng a cahce in SOMETHING that would be somewhat interesting to see, but also in places that would not "just be every 528 feet"

[+briansnat]

to all the powertrail haters:

did you ever try one ?

 

 

There really are very few, if any, "micro haters", (people who hate all micros) although that term is thrown around here a lot. I believe there are also very few, if any "powertrail haters". I for one, could be considered a roadside micro power trail hater, and it sounds as if the OP is also.

 

I guess I can be classified as a power trail hater. I don't think they are good for geocaching from an impact standpoint. They change a low impact, low visibility activity into a high impact, high visibility one.

 

And no, I've never tried a power trail. I have no interest in numbers caching. Even when I go on a group hunt I may actively hunt and log half or fewer of the caches the group finds. I prefer to spend most of my time socializing.

Edited November 28, 2012 by briansnat

[+Totem Clan]

I started searching in the dusty part of the forums and came across this piece. Read it. Get some context from just 5 years ago. Seems like forever...

 

It's amazing what you can learn about the past by actually being there, and also reading about it right from the writings of those that were there. Good to know my memory isn't so bad after all...

I posted this in that thread.

(BTW, I was in North Dakota when this was posted.)

Totem Clan

 

Posted 16 May 2007 - 08:49 AM

 

All the "old" caches (those hidden before the summer of '03) I've found around here are leaking abandoned Tupperware, or worse garbage bags, shoved under a log or rock on private property. One was even hidden under an active railroad trestle. As for the urbans of that age they are, Altoids tins under a light pole next to a construction area or on a stop sing by the grocery store. The first ammo can hidden around here (and it's still active too) was hidden in a ditch in a graveyard where they dump all the lawn clippings, limbs and gardening waste along with the flowers, vases and other junk.

 

Caches have always been hidden by humans. Humans have always been flawed, therefore caches have always often ended up flawed.

 

Looking over the history of hides I think the one big change is the number of hides and the number of those that are now in urban areas. They have been there from almost the start but now there is more of them, because there are more cachers.

 

I still think it answers the question.

 

I do see more bad caches now, but I also see more good cache. I see more caches period.

[Mr.Yuck]

This reminded me to change to my holiday avatar.

 

I liked when you had Mr. T. But of course now there's a guy named A-Team who uses him. But you could still go back to him with a Santa Cap photoshopped on.

[Mr.Yuck]

to all the powertrail haters:

did you ever try one ?

 

 

There really are very few, if any, "micro haters", (people who hate all micros) although that term is thrown around here a lot. I believe there are also very few, if any "powertrail haters". I for one, could be considered a roadside micro power trail hater, and it sounds as if the OP is also.

 

I guess I can be classified as a power trail hater. I don't think they are good for geocaching from an impact standpoint. They change a low impact, low visibility activity into a high impact, high visibility one.

 

And no, I've never tried a power trail. I have no interest in numbers caching. Even when I go on a group hunt I may actively hunt and log half or fewer of the caches the group finds. I prefer to spend most of my time socializing.

 

Yeah, I might have to back off a little comparing the almost non-existent micro haters to power trail haters. But I personally have much less problem with PT's if they're along a rural rail trail, and am even interested in doing some of them. You are correct about high visibility and high impact, talk about Geo-trails to the general area of the cache!

 

EDIT: I see I'm speaking from a Northeast/Mid-West perspective again, talking about the rail trail PT's, and geo-trails to the caches. I wouldn't mind hiking parts of a PT on say BLM lands in the SW or California, I would think.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Mr.Yuck

[+DragonsWest]

Subjectivity abounds.

 

I spent the past week in and around Death Valley National Park, a big favorite of mine for the Thanksgiving week for camping, siteseeing and generally getting away from it all.

 

Nearby is the Amargosa Valley, which upon first glance is rich in old caches, from 2007 and before. Upon searching many of these out I found plastic containers in various states of decay, due to the nature of the habitat. Some hides were still in pretty good shape, those which were metal containers. I had the feeling the resident cachers caught the fever in 2004 or 5 and made several hides, then interest declined a bit after 2008, not too many newer caches.

 

Outside that perimeter were some power trails, which I sampled. One was pretty nasty, pill bottles basically stuck in bushes. Another was a bit better, but still had little to recommend it but easy access of a rarely traveled road. I did a small piece of the ET trail and found it amusing, just a little bit fun, but not something I'd really want to do for 24 hours. A TV series down near Mohave was pretty well done, with similar type hides tethered to bits of PVC pipe, off roads in an area where real estate developers failed.

 

Best experiences, however were doing several Earthcaches and a few virtuals I found scattered along the way. Virtuals still take me to some really cool places where no other cache can suffice and I know it has been beaten to death, but every time I find a really nice one I wonder what can't go right to bring them back. There were so many really neat places I'd like to take someone, but I can't because there are no more virtuals and an Earthcache is a real stretch, no physical container can be left, either. So it's effectively off limits to geocaching.

 

It is probably best, whenever you find you disagree which the style of some hides these days or how some people approach the game, repeat these words to yourself - The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

Now go out and cache.

[+nthacker66]

Subjectivity abounds.

 

I spent the past week in and around Death Valley National Park, a big favorite of mine for the Thanksgiving week for camping, siteseeing and generally getting away from it all.

 

Nearby is the Amargosa Valley, which upon first glance is rich in old caches, from 2007 and before. Upon searching many of these out I found plastic containers in various states of decay, due to the nature of the habitat. Some hides were still in pretty good shape, those which were metal containers. I had the feeling the resident cachers caught the fever in 2004 or 5 and made several hides, then interest declined a bit after 2008, not too many newer caches.

 

Outside that perimeter were some power trails, which I sampled. One was pretty nasty, pill bottles basically stuck in bushes. Another was a bit better, but still had little to recommend it but easy access of a rarely traveled road. I did a small piece of the ET trail and found it amusing, just a little bit fun, but not something I'd really want to do for 24 hours. A TV series down near Mohave was pretty well done, with similar type hides tethered to bits of PVC pipe, off roads in an area where real estate developers failed.

 

Best experiences, however were doing several Earthcaches and a few virtuals I found scattered along the way. Virtuals still take me to some really cool places where no other cache can suffice and I know it has been beaten to death, but every time I find a really nice one I wonder what can't go right to bring them back. There were so many really neat places I'd like to take someone, but I can't because there are no more virtuals and an Earthcache is a real stretch, no physical container can be left, either. So it's effectively off limits to geocaching.

 

It is probably best, whenever you find you disagree which the style of some hides these days or how some people approach the game, repeat these words to yourself - The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

Now go out and cache.

Oh boy, he said the V word. Now you will REALLY bring out the haters. "Whaaaa whaaaaa, how dare you question how *I* play the gane...whaaaa whaaaa, its burgers one day and steak the next....whaaaa whaaaaa...i like to do a nice long hike one day and then a power trail the next whaaaa whaaaa...its all about choices...whaaa whaaaa...to each their own. BUT YOU BEST NOT EVER TALK ABOUT VIRTUALS!!!!" ;-)

 

And of course this is meant to show the humor in the hypocrisy. It is alwasy about "play the game how you choose and dont question, ever, how anyone else does" - until it is something that disagrees - I borught up virtuals at one piint, and the very same people in this thread blasted me over it - how bad virtuals are, how they dont ave a place in this game, etc. I just think it is funny the leopards change their spots to suit their own tastes when it is convenient.

Edited November 28, 2012 by nthacker66

[4wheelin_fool]

The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

But that's how micros got popular. Previously there was a process of finding containers, trading items, and leaving a few sentences in the log book for the next finders. Next, the game became spammed with containers that didn't cost anything, contained no trade items, and only had a list of usernames. Today most people don't trade or write anything in the logbook as a result, even if it is a regular sized cache. It sure seems like the will of the numbers people was forced upon the general geocaching population, and most have adapted. The game may mean different things to each player, but the general process has carried over to all caches.

[+hzoi]

Just like crappy caches there are crappy power trails, I did one too, but there are also good power trails, i have not met anyone who didn't enjoy the E.T. Highway, besides I'd rather be condemned to nothing but power trail than nothing but puzzles..

Is that because the E.T. Highway is an awesome caching experience...or because the majority of cachers who do the E.T. trail think the greatest thing in the world is the opportunity to rack up 1,500 finds in a day? My guess is the latter. If your goal is to get as many caches as you possibly can in 24 hours, you'd LOVE the E.T. highway.

 

That's not to say it's not a great place to do some caching. I'd be riding in the same car as the Riffster...stopping every few miles for the scenery and whatever oddities there might be in the desert and snatching a cache or two as long as I'm stopped.

 

go figure some people actually enjoy something you don't, how dare them.

Ya know, from here in the cheap seats, you seem to be the only one getting angsty over folks who don't fawn all over your idea of fun. The rest of us are pretty much saying, "I like this aspect of the game, but not that aspect", whilst you keep slamming anyone who happens to disagree with your notion of bliss. So... How dare you, Sir.

 

Actually unlike people slamming the power trails I was not slamming other aspects of the game,

 

Sure, Roman, you just leave that for your other threads:

 

Time to archive the puzzle cache.

Time to retire the event cache and CITO cache.

You are not a real geocacher when..........

 

. . . and so forth.

[4wheelin_fool]

 

Sure, Roman, you just leave that for your other threads:

 

Time to archive the puzzle cache.

Time to retire the event cache and CITO cache.

You are not a real geocacher when..........

 

. . . and so forth.

 

Don't forget

I have more balls than you and my wife loves to play with them.

[cezanne]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

 

I tried to explain it already in some earlier posting (before you asked the question) and others have done as well. What is great for one group is not great for another.

Geocaching changed also as a result of the constant and increasing influx of new cachers with totally different ideas about geocaching. Back when I started in my area at least 90% of the cachers enjoyed hiking, now I'd be surprised if this percentage were in the two digit area.

 

As competition and numbers are important for you, you would not have been happy back then and probably would have given up geocaching soon.

 

Cezanne

[+dprovan]

I think what I'm noticing is changing in geocaching are the people who like one aspect of the game or another have been much more vocal that their way is the "right" way. The more I've cached, the more I've decided that it is just a game, it is what I make of it, and what others do is just another version of "find it, sign log, log online". But, it seems that I'm hearing a few loud voices saying that if you don't agree with their opinion, you're wrong.

It's very politically correct of you to describe this in the neutral, but the fact is that I've never heard anyone say there's anything wrong with old school caches out in the woods. I only hear people objecting to those new fangled cache trends and how wrong those are.

[+Totem Clan]

I think what I'm noticing is changing in geocaching are the people who like one aspect of the game or another have been much more vocal that their way is the "right" way. The more I've cached, the more I've decided that it is just a game, it is what I make of it, and what others do is just another version of "find it, sign log, log online". But, it seems that I'm hearing a few loud voices saying that if you don't agree with their opinion, you're wrong.

It's very politically correct of you to describe this in the neutral, but the fact is that I've never heard anyone say there's anything wrong with old school caches out in the woods. I only hear people objecting to those new fangled cache trends and how wrong those are.

I have. In fact there's a thread about it.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=292200&hl=old school caching&st=0

[+Maingray]

I think what I'm noticing is changing in geocaching are the people who like one aspect of the game or another have been much more vocal that their way is the "right" way. The more I've cached, the more I've decided that it is just a game, it is what I make of it, and what others do is just another version of "find it, sign log, log online". But, it seems that I'm hearing a few loud voices saying that if you don't agree with their opinion, you're wrong.

It's very politically correct of you to describe this in the neutral, but the fact is that I've never heard anyone say there's anything wrong with old school caches out in the woods. I only hear people objecting to those new fangled cache trends and how wrong those are.

 

Skimmed last few posts, and agree with NeverSummer here (PS I was at lunch with your mom the other day ). The vocal "My Way = Only Way" crowd are the only caching folks who get my goat.

 

(dprovan: Heh, true. But I do know quite a few folks who actually prefer the urban micro over "old school" hikey caches, but they don't sit and whine about how the ammo can in the woods is blocking placement of their lamp post hide and ruining caching).

Edited November 28, 2012 by Maingray

[+dprovan]

Today most people don't trade or write anything in the logbook as a result, even if it is a regular sized cache. It sure seems like the will of the numbers people was forced upon the general geocaching population, and most have adapted.

I've only been caching a couple years, but it seems to me like it's the other way around: first people decided that it wasn't all that interesting to write nice long entries in log books that would rarely be read or to trade something you don't mind leaving for something you really don't want to take. Then people realized that if all they were doing was signing the log, the caches didn't need to support the other things. Eventually this lead to caches and cache series designed just for the caches' sake.

 

I'm not suggesting this is chronologically what happened, merely that that looks like the way the current culture developed, at least from what I can see.

[cezanne]

I think what I'm noticing is changing in geocaching are the people who like one aspect of the game or another have been much more vocal that their way is the "right" way. The more I've cached, the more I've decided that it is just a game, it is what I make of it, and what others do is just another version of "find it, sign log, log online". But, it seems that I'm hearing a few loud voices saying that if you don't agree with their opinion, you're wrong.

It's very politically correct of you to describe this in the neutral, but the fact is that I've never heard anyone say there's anything wrong with old school caches out in the woods.

 

Really? I have come across many negative comments about old school caches which are about the journey and/or the location and not about the hideout and the container.

 

What is also ignored is that the new cachers who are not liking many kinds of caches are used to having to spend a lot of time for selecting caches while the old-timers are not. I started to cache mainly because it saved me much planning time for planning my outdoor acitivies. Nowadays using geocaches for that purpose often involved even more work than without geocaching. Geocaching is not a game for everyone - for me it is rather a tool and this tool works worse and less effectively for me over time. This is not a question of wrong or right - it is just a fact.

 

Another aspect that is ignored in what you write is that a powertrail of mysteries along a hiking trail (not in the city or along a boring road) ruins the area for the placement of caches of the type I enjoy the most. So these type of caches placements are in real competition while the single ammo can up on a lonesome summit is not competing with a lame urban lamppost cache.

 

Cezanne

Edited November 28, 2012 by cezanne

[Mr.Yuck]

 

What is or isn't a powertrail.

 

I'm planning a seires/trail that will be 33 miles long. It will have at least 70 caches maybe up to 100. It follows an old highway that has been replace with a new straight high speed 4 lane road. All the caches will be the largest I can hide at eache site. At least a small and even a couple of larges.

Part of the trail will be on a closed section that you must either walk or bike. There will be at least one cemetery cache. One will be at a place where a man collects and displays old signs. Some will be on of near old brigdes.

Is this a powertrail?

 

So even if you did 100, they would be .33 miles, or about 1,600 feet, apart. I dunno, that's a tough call. But I am going to reluctantly say yes it is. Back when Powertrails were banned, The reviewers would often use the term Power Trail itself in cases of cache saturation, and the banning of further caches in the saturated area. I don't know that one cache owner could have gotten away with 100 caches .33 miles apart in 2008 or so. Then again, you are in the SouthWest (sort of), and maybe a CO could have done such a thing there in the Pre-PT era.

[+DragonsWest]

The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

But that's how micros got popular. Previously there was a process of finding containers, trading items, and leaving a few sentences in the log book for the next finders. Next, the game became spammed with containers that didn't cost anything, contained no trade items, and only had a list of usernames. Today most people don't trade or write anything in the logbook as a result, even if it is a regular sized cache. It sure seems like the will of the numbers people was forced upon the general geocaching population, and most have adapted. The game may mean different things to each player, but the general process has carried over to all caches.

 

I'll remain an optimist. I plunked $40 at "Geocachers Heaven" in Beatty, Nevada, and brought home 1 small ammo box (7.62), 2 medium (50 cal) and 1 large (dunno what was in here, moosiles?) They will acquite fine new paint jobs, a GEOCACHE GAME PIECE logo, log book, pencil and a bunch of goodies, including some stuff hikers may find useful. One will be a drawing prize at the 12/12/12 event and the others will be stuck in the woods. (I tend to put my money where my mouth is, when I want to see more and better caches, I places some.) Talk is cheap.

[+dprovan]

Really? I have come across many negative comments about old school caches which are about the journey and/or the location and not about the hideout and the container.

Really? I've never heard a single negative comment about the kinds of caches you love. Not everyone likes to seek them, but I don't recall anyone saying that are bad in general.

 

But, in any case, the question wasn't whether people liked them or didn't like them, but whether they complained about other people hiding them, finding them, or liking them.

 

What is also ignored is that the new cachers who are not liking many kinds of caches are used to having to spend a lot of time for selecting caches while the old-timers are not.

I wasn't ignoring the reasons people complain about other people following newer trends in caching, I just wasn't discussing them. That's because I didn't want to use the term "old fogie" it case it upset anyone. But since you ask, I think the reason can basically be summed up as "this isn't the game we invented, so it isn't how anyone should play it." The cases you brought up are good examples.

[+L0ne.R]

The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

But that's how micros got popular. Previously there was a process of finding containers, trading items, and leaving a few sentences in the log book for the next finders. Next, the game became spammed with containers that didn't cost anything, contained no trade items, and only had a list of usernames. Today most people don't trade or write anything in the logbook as a result, even if it is a regular sized cache. It sure seems like the will of the numbers people was forced upon the general geocaching population, and most have adapted. The game may mean different things to each player, but the general process has carried over to all caches.

 

I agree with your observation. Well said, nice summary of the changes that have occurred in the game as a result of the will exerted by the micro-size style of caching.

[cezanne]

Really? I have come across many negative comments about old school caches which are about the journey and/or the location and not about the hideout and the container.

Really? I've never heard a single negative comment about the kinds of caches you love. Not everyone likes to seek them, but I don't recall anyone saying that are bad in general.

 

I guess it depends what is meant by "bad". I know many cachers who regularly go for such caches, but mention in their logs that they have been disappointed by the standard and easily findable hideout.

 

But, in any case, the question wasn't whether people liked them or didn't like them, but whether they complained about other people hiding them, finding them, or liking them.

 

Probably again a matter of definition - this time of how you define "complain". I do not care which caches other like or find, but I do care about which caches are available for me and how much effort I need to invest to select those. Moreover, I do care about the future of geocaching and some of the trends brought along by number runs will sooner or later lead to restrictions of geocaching or even bans in some regions of Europe.

 

I wasn't ignoring the reasons people complain about other people following newer trends in caching, I just wasn't discussing them. That's because I didn't want to use the term "old fogie" it case it upset anyone. But since you ask, I think the reason can basically be summed up as "this isn't the game we invented, so it isn't how anyone should play it." The cases you brought up are good examples.

 

I do not agree. Many of the modern trends in geocaching ruin what geocaching has meant for me during many years. This is a fact and not a complaint. Many local cachers that started around the same time as me have left geocaching and I'm missing them while I would not miss the majority of the newcomers. Again a fact and not a complaint. If an actvity showed up that offered me similar assets than geocaching back then I would switch over to the new activity and leave the geoaching ground to those who enjoy the modern geocaching world. Some forms of geocaching can hardly coexist in densely populated areas without influencing each other negatively.

 

Cezanne

[+DragonsWest]

The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

But that's how micros got popular. Previously there was a process of finding containers, trading items, and leaving a few sentences in the log book for the next finders. Next, the game became spammed with containers that didn't cost anything, contained no trade items, and only had a list of usernames. Today most people don't trade or write anything in the logbook as a result, even if it is a regular sized cache. It sure seems like the will of the numbers people was forced upon the general geocaching population, and most have adapted. The game may mean different things to each player, but the general process has carried over to all caches.

 

I agree with your observation. Well said, nice summary of the changes that have occurred in the game as a result of the will exerted by the micro-size style of caching.

 

I remember the utter shock of my first Decon find. Keep in mind I started in 2003 and had a whopping 20 finds that year(!) I was stunned anyone could place something so small and still consider it a cache. Caches were Ammo Boxes or 5 gallon buckets.

 

As tributes to the good ol' days, this past summer I hid to LARGE size caches, stuffed with all manner of great swag (I loved the stuff, but house cleaning means clearing out old stuff so into the big containers it went.) The notes are a bit telling how stunned people are to find LARGE caches, well stocked and some aren't equipped for trading so have had to pass up some nifty stuff. I ultimately expect these caches will hold a broken pencil, half damp log book and a used golfball, but for the present they are glorious accomplishments.

 

Another will happen in the next few weeks. I have so much stuff and another LARGE container.

 

Should you venture to the area you may seek them out.

 

GC3REDX Big Dam Cache of Sheer Stashliness

 

GC3RH2N Big Bad Stash of Sheer Cacheliness

[+nthacker66]

The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

But that's how micros got popular. Previously there was a process of finding containers, trading items, and leaving a few sentences in the log book for the next finders. Next, the game became spammed with containers that didn't cost anything, contained no trade items, and only had a list of usernames. Today most people don't trade or write anything in the logbook as a result, even if it is a regular sized cache. It sure seems like the will of the numbers people was forced upon the general geocaching population, and most have adapted. The game may mean different things to each player, but the general process has carried over to all caches.

 

I agree with your observation. Well said, nice summary of the changes that have occurred in the game as a result of the will exerted by the micro-size style of caching.

 

I remember the utter shock of my first Decon find. Keep in mind I started in 2003 and had a whopping 20 finds that year(!) I was stunned anyone could place something so small and still consider it a cache. Caches were Ammo Boxes or 5 gallon buckets.

 

As tributes to the good ol' days, this past summer I hid to LARGE size caches, stuffed with all manner of great swag (I loved the stuff, but house cleaning means clearing out old stuff so into the big containers it went.) The notes are a bit telling how stunned people are to find LARGE caches, well stocked and some aren't equipped for trading so have had to pass up some nifty stuff. I ultimately expect these caches will hold a broken pencil, half damp log book and a used golfball, but for the present they are glorious accomplishments.

 

Another will happen in the next few weeks. I have so much stuff and another LARGE container.

 

Should you venture to the area you may seek them out.

 

GC3REDX Big Dam Cache of Sheer Stashliness

 

GC3RH2N Big Bad Stash of Sheer Cacheliness

 

Hahaha, heck, even finding regular old ammo cans is a surprise to people. This one, look at some of the logs. It is just a regular old 50cal ammo can. http://coord.info/GC3FWW6

[+geodarts]

 

I remember the utter shock of my first Decon find. Keep in mind I started in 2003 and had a whopping 20 finds that year(!) I was stunned anyone could place something so small and still consider it a cache. Caches were Ammo Boxes or 5 gallon buckets.

 

As tributes to the good ol' days, this past summer I hid to LARGE size caches, stuffed with all manner of great swag (I loved the stuff, but house cleaning means clearing out old stuff so into the big containers it went.) The notes are a bit telling how stunned people are to find LARGE caches, well stocked and some aren't equipped for trading so have had to pass up some nifty stuff. I ultimately expect these caches will hold a broken pencil, half damp log book and a used golfball, but for the present they are glorious accomplishments.

 

I felt the same way when I found my first film canister left in the middle of a large state park/open space. Or when I first noticed a cache in a parking lot with the description that there were no other caches nearby.

 

But I would hike a ways for a large cache with a used golf ball and perhaps a McToy. Old school caching at its best. Now when can I get down that way?

[+geodarts]

Subjectivity abounds.

 

I spent the past week in and around Death Valley National Park, a big favorite of mine for the Thanksgiving week for camping, siteseeing and generally getting away from it all.

 

. . .

 

Best experiences, however were doing several Earthcaches and a few virtuals I found scattered along the way.

 

To me, the loss of new virtuals is probably as good of a way of thinking about "what the game was" as any, and is even a better dividing line than the rise of repetitive caching trails. But even my favorite traditional cache in the area you describe (the Pioneer Saloon Cache) could probably not be placed under current guidelines. Things were open. Virtuals. Locationless. Ammo boxes were cheap. A certain amount of "outlaw" feeling to it all. So some of the changes have been the inevitable result of mainstreaming.

 

That is not good or bad. I would not want to see caches inside of most businesses, but I am glad that the Pioneer Saloon is still around.

Edited November 28, 2012 by geodarts

[+Snoogans]

That is not good or bad. I would not want to see caches inside of most businesses, but I am glad that the Pioneer Saloon is still around.

 

I just hosted one of my traveling Snoogandipity events at the location of Covert Cache in Milwaukee. It's in a spy themed restaurant called Safe House. What a fun place!

 

There's nothing quite like getting served a cache along with a stiff White Russian.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Snoogans

[+tozainamboku]

This reminded me to change to my holiday avatar.

 

I liked when you had Mr. T. But of course now there's a guy named A-Team who uses him. But you could still go back to him with a Santa Cap photoshopped on.

And I liked it when you were The White Urkel.

[+Roman!]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

 

I tried to explain it already in some earlier posting (before you asked the question) and others have done as well. What is great for one group is not great for another.

Geocaching changed also as a result of the constant and increasing influx of new cachers with totally different ideas about geocaching. Back when I started in my area at least 90% of the cachers enjoyed hiking, now I'd be surprised if this percentage were in the two digit area.

 

As competition and numbers are important for you, you would not have been happy back then and probably would have given up geocaching soon.

 

Cezanne

 

Hmm, Iive been know to hike 20-30km with a several thousand meters elevation gain quite often. I also regularly bike 30+ km.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Roman!

[+NeverSummer]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

 

I tried to explain it already in some earlier posting (before you asked the question) and others have done as well. What is great for one group is not great for another.

Geocaching changed also as a result of the constant and increasing influx of new cachers with totally different ideas about geocaching. Back when I started in my area at least 90% of the cachers enjoyed hiking, now I'd be surprised if this percentage were in the two digit area.

 

As competition and numbers are important for you, you would not have been happy back then and probably would have given up geocaching soon.

 

Cezanne

 

Hmm, Iive been know to hike 20-30km with a several thousand meters elevation gain quite often. I also regularly bike 30+ km.

Does that include the time before you quit smoking, or just after? Is this also for the sole purpose of geocaching, or for the exercise?

 

Essentially, you are proving the point that this game is filled with diverse users with various opinions, caching styles, hobbies, life stories and whatever else. The issue is being respectful at this point in the conversation.

 

Again, any "reason" the game changed that we list here is just a guess. But, after experiencing it first hand, reviewing that history by reading through old cache listings and dusting off old forum entries, you can't deny that the game has changed. Change for better or worse, that is up for anyone to personally decide.

 

This doesn't mean right or wrong, it means your opinion and mine. So long as they don't hurt the game for somebody else and meets the current guidelines, it's all good.

[+Roman!]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

 

I tried to explain it already in some earlier posting (before you asked the question) and others have done as well. What is great for one group is not great for another.

Geocaching changed also as a result of the constant and increasing influx of new cachers with totally different ideas about geocaching. Back when I started in my area at least 90% of the cachers enjoyed hiking, now I'd be surprised if this percentage were in the two digit area.

 

As competition and numbers are important for you, you would not have been happy back then and probably would have given up geocaching soon.

 

Cezanne

 

Hmm, Iive been know to hike 20-30km with a several thousand meters elevation gain quite often. I also regularly bike 30+ km.

Does that include the time before you quit smoking, or just after? Is this also for the sole purpose of geocaching, or for the exercise?

 

Essentially, you are proving the point that this game is filled with diverse users with various opinions, caching styles, hobbies, life stories and whatever else. The issue is being respectful at this point in the conversation.

 

Again, any "reason" the game changed that we list here is just a guess. But, after experiencing it first hand, reviewing that history by reading through old cache listings and dusting off old forum entries, you can't deny that the game has changed. Change for better or worse, that is up for anyone to personally decide.

 

This doesn't mean right or wrong, it means your opinion and mine. So long as they don't hurt the game for somebody else and meets the current guidelines, it's all good.

 

Nope, after I quit and I hiked for both. Contrary to what you may believe there are many people on this forum that would like to dictate how others cache, I am nt one of them.

[+niraD]

Contrary to what you may believe there are many people on this forum that would like to dictate how others cache, I am nt one of them.

Time to archive the puzzle cache.

Time to retire the event cache and CITO cache.

You are not a real geocacher when..........

[+Roman!]

Contrary to what you may believe there are many people on this forum that would like to dictate how others cache, I am nt one of them.

Time to archive the puzzle cache.

Time to retire the event cache and CITO cache.

You are not a real geocacher when..........

 

I knew those would be brought up, my other choice was start a "I hate power trails" or "I hate LPCs" thread but there are tons of those so I started my own as a spoof on the "I hate ths or that" threads.

 

I also enjoy arguing so they were perfect threads to start and there sure were some interesting comments.

[+NeverSummer]

Contrary to what you may believe there are many people on this forum that would like to dictate how others cache, I am nt one of them.

Time to archive the puzzle cache.

Time to retire the event cache and CITO cache.

You are not a real geocacher when..........

 

I knew those would be brought up, my other choice was start a "I hate power trails" or "I hate LPCs" thread but there are tons of those so I started my own as a spoof on the "I hate ths or that" threads.

 

I also enjoy arguing so they were perfect threads to start and there sure were some interesting comments.

So you admit deliberately trolling, and then trying to claim the color your voiced opinion paints you is wrong? Too late. I don't buy it.

[+NeverSummer]

Contrary to what you may believe there are many people on this forum that would like to dictate how others cache, I am nt one of them.

Time to archive the puzzle cache.

Time to retire the event cache and CITO cache.

You are not a real geocacher when..........

Let's not leave out comments made in "Effortless Smiley"

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Maybe this has already been discussed here, but after recently knocking off most of the year 2000 months for our Jasmer, what comes to mind:

Older Caches

1) Those caches are in beautiful and/or interesting natural surroundings.

2) The containers are predominately ammo cans which are fun to open.

3) The challenge is the trek, not the find (lots of stick piles).

4) We had a blast finding them mostly due to location.

Newer Caches

5) Adapt to less natural surroundings

6) The containers are predominately bisons

7) The challenge is the find, not the trek (lots of evil hides).

8) We have a blast finding them mostly due to the challenge of the find.

[Clan Riffster]

Just like crappy caches there are crappy power trails, I did one too, but there are also good power trails, i have not met anyone who didn't enjoy the E.T. Highway, besides I'd rather be condemned to nothing but power trail than nothing but puzzles..

Is that because the E.T. Highway is an awesome caching experience...or because the majority of cachers who do the E.T. trail think the greatest thing in the world is the opportunity to rack up 1,500 finds in a day? My guess is the latter. If your goal is to get as many caches as you possibly can in 24 hours, you'd LOVE the E.T. highway.

 

That's not to say it's not a great place to do some caching. I'd be riding in the same car as the Riffster...stopping every few miles for the scenery and whatever oddities there might be in the desert and snatching a cache or two as long as I'm stopped.

I have nothing against runs like this, but I would prefer to be in Riffster's car as well.

 

If there's room in Riffster's car I'd like a spot in it as well. While those in Roman's car are jumping out every 45 seconds, those in Riffster's car will have more time to socialize between stops every 15-30 minutes or while taking a short hike together to the top of a hill which provides a scenic view of the area.

 

Frankly, I find it pretty insulting that not enjoying a certain way of caching is in any way related to ones ability to choose our friends.

 

Can I get in that car too? We'd have time to chat and share stories without stopping every 45 seconds to find a cache. Maybe we'll even pull over, climb a hill and sit a while to really take in the view. I'll bring a 6 pack, you bring the sandwiches.

 

Unlike so many trips to do the E.T. highway this trip will never happen, why? No reason too unless you all get together and do it to spite me.

Is your ego really that big? Seriously?

[Clan Riffster]

i have not met anyone who didn't enjoy the E.T. Highway

 

I did a small piece of the ET trail and found it amusing, just a little bit fun, but not something I'd really want to do for 24 hours.

Looks like we can put that theory to bed...

[+Roman!]

Just like crappy caches there are crappy power trails, I did one too, but there are also good power trails, i have not met anyone who didn't enjoy the E.T. Highway, besides I'd rather be condemned to nothing but power trail than nothing but puzzles..

Is that because the E.T. Highway is an awesome caching experience...or because the majority of cachers who do the E.T. trail think the greatest thing in the world is the opportunity to rack up 1,500 finds in a day? My guess is the latter. If your goal is to get as many caches as you possibly can in 24 hours, you'd LOVE the E.T. highway.

 

That's not to say it's not a great place to do some caching. I'd be riding in the same car as the Riffster...stopping every few miles for the scenery and whatever oddities there might be in the desert and snatching a cache or two as long as I'm stopped.

I have nothing against runs like this, but I would prefer to be in Riffster's car as well.

 

If there's room in Riffster's car I'd like a spot in it as well. While those in Roman's car are jumping out every 45 seconds, those in Riffster's car will have more time to socialize between stops every 15-30 minutes or while taking a short hike together to the top of a hill which provides a scenic view of the area.

 

Frankly, I find it pretty insulting that not enjoying a certain way of caching is in any way related to ones ability to choose our friends.

 

Can I get in that car too? We'd have time to chat and share stories without stopping every 45 seconds to find a cache. Maybe we'll even pull over, climb a hill and sit a while to really take in the view. I'll bring a 6 pack, you bring the sandwiches.

 

Unlike so many trips to do the E.T. highway this trip will never happen, why? No reason too unless you all get together and do it to spite me.

Is your ego really that big? Seriously?

 

That's it, count me out of your car.

[Clan Riffster]

I also enjoy arguing...

Whooda thunkit?

[+Don_J]

The game means different things to each player. You can't (unless you are the Frog) exert your will upon people and if you do you will alienate them.

 

But that's how micros got popular. Previously there was a process of finding containers, trading items, and leaving a few sentences in the log book for the next finders. Next, the game became spammed with containers that didn't cost anything, contained no trade items, and only had a list of usernames. Today most people don't trade or write anything in the logbook as a result, even if it is a regular sized cache. It sure seems like the will of the numbers people was forced upon the general geocaching population, and most have adapted. The game may mean different things to each player, but the general process has carried over to all caches.

 

I found that I too was just signing my name in regular sized logbooks, so I now I make it a point to write out a whole page. Not that big of a deal when only one out a hundred caches have one.

[cezanne]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

 

I tried to explain it already in some earlier posting (before you asked the question) and others have done as well. What is great for one group is not great for another.

Geocaching changed also as a result of the constant and increasing influx of new cachers with totally different ideas about geocaching. Back when I started in my area at least 90% of the cachers enjoyed hiking, now I'd be surprised if this percentage were in the two digit area.

 

As competition and numbers are important for you, you would not have been happy back then and probably would have given up geocaching soon.

 

Cezanne

 

Hmm, Iive been know to hike 20-30km with a several thousand meters elevation gain quite often. I also regularly bike 30+ km.

 

You have mentioned that before. I was referring to the percentage of cachers not enjoying hiking in my area, not yours. The only reason why I guessed you would not have enjoyed geocaching in my area in the early years is due to what you wrote yourself about competition in this thread.

 

While nearly all oldtimers regardless of where they come from will agree that geocaching has changed tremendously over time, the changes are not the same everywhere as the starting status was not the same. For example, in my area ammo boxes have never been very common. We mostly started out with medium sized plastic containers and while trading stuff was more frequent than it is now it never played an important role locally. Few cachers were caching with kids.

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

3) The challenge is the trek, not the find (lots of stick piles).

7) The challenge is the find, not the trek (lots of evil hides).

8) We have a blast finding them mostly due to the challenge of the find.

 

That matches very well with my observations in my area. Most of us local oldtimers

do not regard geocaching as a hide and seek game. The idea was not to place a cache such that it is hard to find for cachers, but only sufficiently unlikely to be found by chance by muggles. Many newer cachers are disappointed if

a cache is to be found instantly while I'm unhappy with having to spend 15 minutes or longer to search for the

container.

 

Cezanne

[+Roman!]

I read a few of those od posts which got e thinking, if it was so great before then why did it change?

 

I tried to explain it already in some earlier posting (before you asked the question) and others have done as well. What is great for one group is not great for another.

Geocaching changed also as a result of the constant and increasing influx of new cachers with totally different ideas about geocaching. Back when I started in my area at least 90% of the cachers enjoyed hiking, now I'd be surprised if this percentage were in the two digit area.

 

As competition and numbers are important for you, you would not have been happy back then and probably would have given up geocaching soon.

 

Cezanne

 

Hmm, Iive been know to hike 20-30km with a several thousand meters elevation gain quite often. I also regularly bike 30+ km.

 

You have mentioned that before. I was referring to the percentage of cachers not enjoying hiking in my area, not yours. The only reason why I guessed you would not have enjoyed geocaching in my area in the early years is due to what you wrote yourself about competition in this thread.

 

While nearly all oldtimers regardless of where they come from will agree that geocaching has changed tremendously over time, the changes are not the same everywhere as the starting status was not the same. For example, in my area ammo boxes have never been very common. We mostly started out with medium sized plastic containers and while trading stuff was more frequent than it is now it never played an important role locally. Few cachers were caching with kids.

 

Cezanne

 

You'd never catch me dead in Clan Riffster's car but given the chance I'd hie with you any day.

[Clan Riffster]

Is this a powertrail?

Good question. Maybe it's a Potter Stewart thing?

For instance, there's a series I helped build which involves about 12 to 15 miles of pure, old school bushwhacking. It's about 60 stages, each with a unique cache name and write up, (no copy/paste), roughly .15 miles apart, comprised of equal parts ammo cans, Lock & Locks, Therapak canisters and preforms, and takes, on average, three days to complete due to the severity of the vegetation, (very dense scrub oak/juniper).

 

The owner calls it a power trail.

I'm not so sure. It looks like a power trail. Sorta. At least on the GC maps.

Unlike the E.T. Highway, not everyone who has attempted it has fallen in love with it. There have been some numbers oriented cachers who have set their sights on it, and have walked away after only a few miles of bushwhacking, calling it insane.