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angel77ra
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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

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We don't do that here. We allow the true FTFer to find it and claim the FTF. We do what we call "beta testing" where we don't watch where the cacher hides it. We then get the coordinates from him and use them to "find" it, as a test of the coordinates. Since we most likely see the container and kinow roughly where he is hiding it, we don't think it's appropriate for us to claim a FTF. After the FTF is claimed we go back and log a find if the CO allows it.

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Guess it depends on the CO. But personally we would frown on that sort of thing. It just so happens once we bumped into a caching friend of ours at GZ of a cache literally moments after we'd hidden it. We chatted but didn't let on what we were doing there, and went our separate ways without him realising. Hope he understood when he saw the cache published a few days later ;)

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

I would gain no satisfaction from recording a FTF if I was with the CO when the cache was placed however as there are no rules surrounding this it does not surprise me that this practice would occur. It may be that the CO has a dislike of FTF hounds and encourages friends to join them to scupper a FTFers plans.

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

I would gain no satisfaction from recording a FTF if I was with the CO when the cache was placed however as there are no rules surrounding this it does not surprise me that this practice would occur. It may be that the CO has a dislike of FTF hounds and encourages friends to join them to scupper a FTFers plans.

+1

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

I would gain no satisfaction from recording a FTF if I was with the CO when the cache was placed however as there are no rules surrounding this it does not surprise me that this practice would occur. It may be that the CO has a dislike of FTF hounds and encourages friends to join them to scupper a FTFers plans.

+1

+2

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I think it's fine to log a find, but definately not to take a FTF. FTF has to occur after publishing, IMHO.

To me FTF is the first person to find a cache. That is before or after publishing, doesn't really matter, just as long as it is a FIND. If you are with the CO, and see the placement, you can't really find it. My definition of find says that you can't find something if you already know were it is.

 

eg. The CO may post the cache either in a local forum, or another geocaching site.

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I've helped my daughter set out a couple caches. Since I was there when they were placed I don't log them.

I did the same with my daughter, and I didn't log it until I went back months later with my wife to do some maintenance, I let her find it with no help from me and since we used to do our caches as a team we then logged it as a find.

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I have claimed a find while out hiding caches with a friend, but Never as FTF.

 

This was how I was taught to do it when i first went out with a group in 2005. It has simply been the way things are done around here.

 

We usually sign the log at the bottom and leave the spot for FTF blank. We do not log a find online until after someone finds it after it is published. This leaves the FTF honors open for those that care and it also leaves it in PQs of caches that have never been found.

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

What's your problem exactly. The FTF, or the caches.

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

What's your problem exactly. The FTF, or the caches.

No problem just a question. It seems like the same concept as logging a find on your own hides. There are a number of puzzle caches in the area that have not yet been solved but have been logged, which just makes the puzzle that much more frustrating. I was simply asking if the rules are general for this or if there is a code of conduct followed by seasoned cachers or if no one cares. Also in our area the Lonelycacheproject awards points and places you overall in specific categories including FTF an First day finders which you no longer get if the ache was already logged.

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

What's your problem exactly. The FTF, or the caches.

No problem just a question. It seems like the same concept as logging a find on your own hides. There are a number of puzzle caches in the area that have not yet been solved but have been logged, which just makes the puzzle that much more frustrating. I was simply asking if the rules are general for this or if there is a code of conduct followed by seasoned cachers or if no one cares. Also in our area the Lonelycacheproject awards points and places you overall in specific categories including FTF an First day finders which you no longer get if the ache was already logged.

 

So this is not simply a FTF issue. Thank you.

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

What's your problem exactly. The FTF, or the caches.

No problem just a question. It seems like the same concept as logging a find on your own hides. There are a number of puzzle caches in the area that have not yet been solved but have been logged, which just makes the puzzle that much more frustrating. I was simply asking if the rules are general for this or if there is a code of conduct followed by seasoned cachers or if no one cares. Also in our area the Lonelycacheproject awards points and places you overall in specific categories including FTF an First day finders which you no longer get if the ache was already logged.

So you're upset because somebody who is geocaching is spoiling your non-geocaching side game?

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My definition of find says that you can't find something if you already know were it is.

That will prevent many from 'clearing' DNF's. Say I find the attachment hardware (whatever it is) but the cache is missing. I log a DNF, wait for the CO to replace it - but can't log a find because "I already know where it is"?

 

Or what if I see another cacher replace it while I'm approaching (I've done this while driving up to the parking area) - now I know where it is so I can't log it?

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Are we talking about www.lonelycache.com?

Not upset at all in any form. Unsure why you assume this is a b**** fest, some forums are to get better info on a subject and get personal feedback. I assume you have a lot of FTF claims that you tagged along with CO due to your hostility. There are a lot of gray areas in geocaching and obviously everyone has their opinion on each.

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My definition of find says that you can't find something if you already know were it is.

That will prevent many from 'clearing' DNF's. Say I find the attachment hardware (whatever it is) but the cache is missing. I log a DNF, wait for the CO to replace it - but can't log a find because "I already know where it is"?

 

Or what if I see another cacher replace it while I'm approaching (I've done this while driving up to the parking area) - now I know where it is so I can't log it?

 

Yeah, and if your cache migrates or you forgot where you put it, and you need to search for it, do you get to log a find? I once spent looking 20 minutes for my own cache!

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People in this area generally will log a cache they help place, but not FTF it.

When I was FTF on the Ape replacement cache there was a small list of names at the bottom that had a note on it that they would log it once there was an FTF. They left a large space at the top with "FTF" on it.

 

I see no problem with this.

I'd rather actually find it myself so I try not to help friends hide caches :)

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

 

It's fairly common, but not something that many cachers would do. I personally don't see the point of "finding" a cache that I had a part in hiding, but to each his own.

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Are we talking about www.lonelycache.com?

Not upset at all in any form. Unsure why you assume this is a b**** fest, some forums are to get better info on a subject and get personal feedback. I assume you have a lot of FTF claims that you tagged along with CO due to your hostility. There are a lot of gray areas in geocaching and obviously everyone has their opinion on each.

 

I search for caches. When someone wants to play another game about with how I found it, count me out. I didn't ask to be a part of it but if you continue to drag me into it my best response is to be annoyingly straight forward.

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Are we talking about www.lonelycache.com?

Not upset at all in any form. Unsure why you assume this is a b**** fest, some forums are to get better info on a subject and get personal feedback. I assume you have a lot of FTF claims that you tagged along with CO due to your hostility. There are a lot of gray areas in geocaching and obviously everyone has their opinion on each.

 

I search for caches. When someone wants to play another game about with how I found it, count me out. I didn't ask to be a part of it but if you continue to drag me into it my best response is to be annoyingly straight forward.

 

How are they dragging you into anything? They asked a simple question and you decided to answer with, "What's your problem", and then interrogate them instead of simply answering the question. It looks to me like you jumped in with both feet. Heck of a way to welcome someone new to the forum.

 

And people wonder why this place has a bad rap.

Edited by Don_J
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Are we talking about www.lonelycache.com?

Not upset at all in any form. Unsure why you assume this is a b**** fest, some forums are to get better info on a subject and get personal feedback. I assume you have a lot of FTF claims that you tagged along with CO due to your hostility. There are a lot of gray areas in geocaching and obviously everyone has their opinion on each.

 

I search for caches. When someone wants to play another game about with how I found it, count me out. I didn't ask to be a part of it but if you continue to drag me into it my best response is to be annoyingly straight forward.

 

How are they dragging you into anything? They asked a simple question and you decided to answer with, "What's your problem", and then interrogate them instead of simply answering the question. It looks to me like you jumped in with both feet. Heck of a way to welcome someone new to the forum.

 

And people wonder why this place has a bad rap.

 

This initial post was a simple question? hmmm

 

I was FTF on a cache once. Simple as that. Other people ended up dragging me into a grudge match. Hence my post that if you play a game and drag me into it.... etc, etc.

 

edit: perhaps my use of the word 'continue' implied that the op was at fault. I meant that while I ignore most games, don't continue to include me... without cost, should it happen.

 

 

bd

Edited by BlueDeuce
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There are a number of puzzle caches in the area that have not yet been solved but have been logged, which just makes the puzzle that much more frustrating.

There are many difficult caches, unknowns/puzzles included, where the logs are like “TFTC, easy find”, where I can't believe there's no mention of a puzzle at all. Those are log after log, not just FTF. Sometimes I wonder if anyone but me attempted the puzzle.

 

I was simply asking if the rules are general for this or if there is a code of conduct followed by seasoned cachers or if no one cares. Also in our area the Lonelycacheproject awards points and places you overall in specific categories including FTF an First day finders which you no longer get if the ache was already logged.

Why would “Lonely Cache” award points on the day a cache was placed? It can't possibly be lonely already.

 

I don't know what I'd do if I invited a friend to a Beta-test a cache, and if he signed it and claimed a find upon activation. But I'd likely let the find stand, since he found it (that is, I had him search as anyone else might). If I brought him along and pointed it out, I might ask him to not sign it (or there wouldn't even be a log in there yet, it's a test cache). And he'll get top billing as part of the team that set it up. If he then sneaks back an hour later and adds a signed slip of paper, I'd likely let the find stand, and next time, I won't use him as a Beta tester. I mean, what is his problem? Sheesh! :anicute:

 

I've also been to an impossible cache, was still working on ideas, then the Cache Owner fixed the cache description, and a whole bunch of people then found it immediately (they have smart phones, I have to go back to the computer at home to see the new info). Sometimes you have to let it go. And realize that when you get an FTF, a lot of people might be upset at you over that, regardless of how fair it was.

 

However, there are two facts: No one cares (that is, the Cache Owner and his friend). And everyone cares (the remaining locals who wanted to try for FTF). So it's both. :ph34r:

Edited by kunarion
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There are a number of puzzle caches in the area that have not yet been solved but have been logged, which just makes the puzzle that much more frustrating.

There are many difficult caches, unknowns/puzzles included, where the logs are like “TFTC, easy find”, where I can't believe there's no mention of a puzzle at all. Those are log after log, not just FTF. Sometimes I wonder if anyone but me attempted the puzzle.

 

I was simply asking if the rules are general for this or if there is a code of conduct followed by seasoned cachers or if no one cares. Also in our area the Lonelycacheproject awards points and places you overall in specific categories including FTF an First day finders which you no longer get if the ache was already logged.

Why would “Lonely Cache” award points on the day a cache was placed? It can't possibly be lonely already.

 

I don't know what I'd do if I invited a friend to a Beta-test a cache, and if he signed it and claimed a find upon activation. But I'd likely let the find stand, since he found it (that is, I had him search as anyone else might). If I brought him along and pointed it out, I might ask him to not sign it (or there wouldn't even be a log in there yet, it's a test cache). And he'll get top billing as part of the team that set it up. If he then sneaks back an hour later and adds a signed slip of paper, I'd likely let the find stand, and next time, I won't use him as a Beta tester. I mean, what is his problem? Sheesh! :anicute:

 

I've also been to an impossible cache, was still working on ideas, then the Cache Owner fixed the cache description, and a whole bunch of people then found it immediately (they have smart phones, I have to go back to the computer at home to see the new info). Sometimes you have to let it go. And realize that when you get an FTF, a lot of people might be upset at you over that, regardless of how fair it was.

 

However, there are two facts: No one cares (that is, the Cache Owner and his friend). And everyone cares (the remaining locals who wanted to try for FTF). So it's both. :ph34r:

 

I'm curious. Do you want your beta tester friend to never log it as a find, or just not log a FTF or a find before others have had a chance?

 

Either way, it's your cache and your wishes should be respected. I think a lot of this is regional. Different geocaching communities evolved with different ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't. I've never known any different than to log a find on a cache if the person I am hiking with hides it in my presence, but I can certainly understand how this can sound very strange to cachers in other areas.

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I have a kayak and placed a bunch of caches with another cacher. Let him hide some as well. I was hoping we could do the beta testing thing so I could actually get some 5 terrains! :) We ended up just Co-owning them and not making a find on any of them. I was not at all going to claim FTF but wouldn't have minded claiming a find. Oh well. This is all just for fun.

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I'm curious. Do you want your beta tester friend to never log it as a find, or just not log a FTF or a find before others have had a chance?

If I hide it, I don't claim the find. If I bring a crowd of a hundred million people and we all hide it together, a hundred million people and I don't claim the find. We all placed it as a team. We didn't "find" it, we placed it. There's a Stat for that. We place our caches, we find ones placed by others. But if someone insists that's not how they do it back home, I doubt I'll argue with them over it. Imagine playing "Hide and Seek" by yourself and announcing that's the way you do it. Hey, make your own rules and play it your way. It's still weird. :ph34r:

 

I claimed a spot where a cache was once archived, after asking the archiver if I could have his spot. On the cache page I specified that he could claim a find if he wanted to. But I made him go find it like everybody else :anicute: (it was a different style of hide, and a distance from the original placement). Someone once signed a private cache I used for delivering Swag to friends, which I never intended to activate. The park pruned all the trees and pruned that container away, so the FTF was never made official. Cachers log "attended" on their own Event caches, so if it's important and it counts to log "Attended", it's no stretch to say that anyone can "find" any cache, even Cache Owners.

 

If my hypothetical Beta-testing friend signs it for whatever reason, it's been signed. So he obviously intended to claim the find, but even if he didn't, the guy who shows up expecting to be "FTF" now sees the FIRST signature is already there, and the strife begins anyway. I may not put my friend's name in a flashing marquee as "FTF!" on the cache page if he didn't actually do anything except help me place it (I credit him for the help).

 

But it keeps everything at least accurate if the first finder is "First", because that must be the case, since in this dimension things occur in time sequence, one after the other, so there is precisely one "First" that never changes regardless of how many more there are. It's a time continuum thing, it's just science.

 

Let's say I don't invite my pen-happy Beta-testing friend, because I just plain don't want signatures on the log before it's activated -- now I'll get grief from him, for leaving him out of the loop! This has never been an issue on my caches, so as I said I don't know what I'd do, just thinking out loud.

Edited by kunarion
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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

Yes, it's traditionally done in my area. The buddy logs a find only after the FTF is logged, dating it on the day of the FTF or later, and noting they were present when it was hidden. I used to think this made sense, but lately I've decided I don't think much of the practice. One thing that changed my mind was that sometimes people around here hide caches as a team, and then all the members of the team claim the find after the FTF. The reason that changed my mind is that although questionable, that does, in fact, follow the logic of non-COs present at hiding claiming a find, since the team is the CO, not any of the individuals.

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Is it common to claim a find when you are with the CO during placement.? This happens often in my area and takes away from FTF points in the regions Lonelycache project. There is also a number of unfounded caches that are claimed by the CO's hiking buddies. Just curious if this is standard or if it is frowned upon.

Yes, it's traditionally done in my area. The buddy logs a find only after the FTF is logged, dating it on the day of the FTF or later, and noting they were present when it was hidden. I used to think this made sense, but lately I've decided I don't think much of the practice. One thing that changed my mind was that sometimes people around here hide caches as a team, and then all the members of the team claim the find after the FTF. The reason that changed my mind is that although questionable, that does, in fact, follow the logic of non-COs present at hiding claiming a find, since the team is the CO, not any of the individuals.

Also, I think this all depends on the climate of where you're caching. I've seen it done simplistically where someone will log on the day it was hidden, and say--clearly--that they were there when the cache was hidden, and the "FTF" is still up for grabs.

 

A FTF is just the same as the 1001st find, but different meanings happen for everyone. If a FTF count is your thing, would it deflate your hunt to know that someone else logged it already? Even if they said "The FTF is still up for grabs"?

 

A cache is placed by "A", and "B" was along. "B" signs for a find, and "A" and "B" go home. Cache is published. "B" logs a find online, and says "A FTF is still available, blah blah, circumstances of it, blah." Cacher "C" runs out for the "FTF" and signs the log, and goes home to log online.

 

So, what's the difference? The only thing I can think of is that it is a completely abstract, amorphous, regionally different, personally interpreted thing. If people went back to putting good swag in caches to trade, or added FTF gifts again, then it would be different. Then, the story above still gets cacher "C" some pride for their efforts. Otherwise, it really is just another find. First, or 1001st.

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Also, I think this all depends on the climate of where you're caching. I've seen it done simplistically where someone will log on the day it was hidden, and say--clearly--that they were there when the cache was hidden, and the "FTF" is still up for grabs.

Yes, I've seen "FTF still up for grabs" finds, but lately the log after FTF approach has become dominate in my area.

 

A FTF is just the same as the 1001st find, but different meanings happen for everyone. If a FTF count is your thing, would it deflate your hunt to know that someone else logged it already? Even if they said "The FTF is still up for grabs"?

Certainly there's room for interpretation, but in this case I find the logic reasonably clear cut. That person had an abnormal advantage in the FTF hunt. At the very least, they had insider info about the cache before it was published. So those finds obviously don't count as FTFs, and those seekers honorably excluded themselves. The question, really, is whether it makes sense to claim them as finds at all.

 

A couple times people have found a cache by chance before it was published without any help from the CO and denied themselves FTF on the cache simply because the find was pre-publication. There's a logic to that, too, although personally I'd claim those as FTFs, and with significant pride.

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Another regional 'thing' (I'm not sure other area's do this much) that can effect this practice is the Blackout Challenges (find all the caches in a city/park/region) - if you put a cache you were present at hiding on ignore, you can never make the Challenge.

I would expect that giving an explanation would satisfy the challenge requirements, although if you've put it on your ignore list, you might not realize you have a problem to explain. But if the explanation wasn't accepted, no one should lose any sleep over claiming the find to satisfy the challenge even if they don't really think it makes sense in the larger picture.

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I have NEVER posted a 'found' for a cache I helped place...yet.

 

My personal criteria (and the one I hold friends who accompany me when I place a cache to) is:

 

I must re-visit the site AFTER publication (and of course, sign the logbook).

I cannot log a find until someone else has logged the cache, or if the cache has gone one year without a find.

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I have been hiking with a CO that placed several caches during our hike, when he hid them I walked a ways away, didn't watch, then waited for another cacher to get FTF before going back, finding them and signing the log.

 

On another instance the same cacher created a 50 cache bike power trail, I helped him with 1/2 the caches by biking ahead and scouting a spot, when he caught up and went to place the cache I rode off to scout the next spot. I then went back after they all have been found to find and sign them.

 

Thirdly I beta tested a night cache, made it to GZ but never searched for the cache, I came back a few days later after it was found and found the cache and signed the log.

 

Those are my experiences with being in on a cache before it was published, I feel signing the log when you're with the CO when he/she hides it is a bit tacky but if someone feel OK then fine but claiming an FTF on top of that is just plain wrong.

Edited by Roman!
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I feel signing the log when you're with the CO when he/she hides it is a bit tacky but if someone feel OK then fine but claiming an FTF on top of that is just plain wrong.

A lot depends on the situation also. We were on a group hike, grabbing a number of caches, and one was placed (we knew it was going to be done) part way thru. Being that there were two reviewers/lackeys along, it was published within seconds of being placed, and logged within a few more seconds (smart phones are a wonder). We all enjoyed the "FTF Party" (the fastest on record!) and had much fun with the whole thing. Normal? No. Acceptable? Yes, in that setting.

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This is really a game of doing what you think is right. If you think watching someone hide a cache and then claiming a find is okay then do it. It's not like you're going to win something by inflating your real search and find #'s. But it doesn't really seem fair to take credit for something you haven't actually done. There are some in my area that have bolstered their numbers by 1000's doing this, but in the end I only really care about my own numbers. Personally I wouldn't do this but if they can sleep at night, why shouldn't I?

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This is really a game of doing what you think is right. If you think watching someone hide a cache and then claiming a find is okay then do it. It's not like you're going to win something by inflating your real search and find #'s. But it doesn't really seem fair to take credit for something you haven't actually done. There are some in my area that have bolstered their numbers by 1000's doing this, but in the end I only really care about my own numbers. Personally I wouldn't do this but if they can sleep at night, why shouldn't I?

 

I have never had to justify claiming a find. I have no interest in listening to those that do. We both know what game is being played.

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I feel signing the log when you're with the CO when he/she hides it is a bit tacky but if someone feel OK then fine but claiming an FTF on top of that is just plain wrong.

A lot depends on the situation also. We were on a group hike, grabbing a number of caches, and one was placed (we knew it was going to be done) part way thru. Being that there were two reviewers/lackeys along, it was published within seconds of being placed, and logged within a few more seconds (smart phones are a wonder). We all enjoyed the "FTF Party" (the fastest on record!) and had much fun with the whole thing. Normal? No. Acceptable? Yes, in that setting.

 

I'd fire the reviewers/lackeys for conflict of interest.

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I feel signing the log when you're with the CO when he/she hides it is a bit tacky but if someone feel OK then fine but claiming an FTF on top of that is just plain wrong.

A lot depends on the situation also. We were on a group hike, grabbing a number of caches, and one was placed (we knew it was going to be done) part way thru. Being that there were two reviewers/lackeys along, it was published within seconds of being placed, and logged within a few more seconds (smart phones are a wonder). We all enjoyed the "FTF Party" (the fastest on record!) and had much fun with the whole thing. Normal? No. Acceptable? Yes, in that setting.

 

I'd fire the reviewers/lackeys for conflict of interest.

What conflict of interest? Reviewers' job is publishing caches that meet the guidelines - neither of the two were the hider, the cache met the guidelines (since then a forest filre swept the area, so the cache may be ash now), a cache page was submitted, reviewed and published. Multi-persons had smart phones and then logged the cache. A unique experience that is far from normal - but a heck of a lot of fun.

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I think it's fine to log a find, but definately not to take a FTF. FTF has to occur after publishing, IMHO.

 

I've seen a couple of exceptions to that general practice --- but the exceptions serve to prove the rule:

  • Some of the big "events" around here feature new cache placements. Some of the prizes offered in the raffle are FTF opportunities on individual caches; basically, they get a 15 minute head start on the rest of the attendees, who are given the new cache information onsite. The caches themselves are pre-approved by the Groundspeak folks and are published the next day ... but for the first night, only the attendees are logging the caches as part of the event.
  • The funniest story I've seen ... as part of a seasonal caching series, one of the local posts new caches every day (or thereabouts, depending on when they get approved) of winter, creating a nice series of caches to complete. I headed off to claim a FTF at a LPC just after it was published ... to discover that the cache had been signed three days before publication! Apparently, another geocacher had decided to place his own cache at that site, and coincidentally found the cache there when he went to scout the area, in the gap of time between original placement and publication.

But, in general ... yeah, if you're watching the cache placed, it's a little odd to claim that you "found it" first.

 

 

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