Powertrails?

[+beartooth72]

I live in Colorado, in the Denver area. In the last year, a couple of powertrails have sprung up in the rural areas between Denver and Colorado Springs. I know that these powertrails are popular by the amount of traffic they have gotten. I have spent time getting the caches on these powertrails on three separate occasions. Each time, I have run into at least one of individuals who own property along the roads all these caches are on. All of the property owner's have noticed the increased traffic on the roads, and were extremely curious about these people who were stopping in the middle of the road every 1/8th of a mile or so, getting out of their cars, walking up to the fence lines, and then driving another 1/8th of a mile, repeat, etc. I explained about Geocaching to the land owner's, and assured them that none of the caches were placed on their land. On one powertrail, the caches were placed near turnouts, which made getting off the road possible. The other powertrail cache placer is assuming that the cachers will have enough common sense to pull off the road as much as possible, but that is not what is happening according to the property owner's. One gentleman wasn't happy that a cache was placed near the end of his driveway, and I wasn't happy that some of the caches are placed opposite people's homes, or near mailboxes. People live in these rural areas because they value their privacy, and aren't very happy with the increased traffic or the people that don't know how to pull over and create as little obstruction as possible.

 

With all that said, how do we get the word out to fellow Geocachers that people live near where these powertrails are, and that sometimes people drive these rural roads at speeds WAY ABOVE the speed limit? Pull over as far as possible! The other part of my question is how to convince the COs that they need to put more thought into the cache placement? I'd hate for someone to get shot because they were mistaken for prowlers.

 

Thanks for letting me vent, and any suggestions would be appreciated.

[+dprovan]

Write it up in your Found log, or add a Note, a Needs Maintenance, or a Needs Archived, as appropriate. From what you're saying, this is important information for anyone seeking these caches, so a private message would be the wrong approach.

[Mr.Yuck]

The OP is 100% right on. What a great post. It should even become a canned reviewer note posted to power trail pages before publication. I especially like the part about these people choose to live in these rural areas because they value their privacy. No one ever thinks about this, on any "in view of houses" cache placement. Think about how someone could have been living in their house for 30 years, and all of a sudden, one day in 2012, all these weirdos show up. Quite the freak show, and a very scary freak show to some that makes them nervous.

 

So you have me here, and maybe a few other people saying what a great post it is. But I can almost guarantee you if you try to "get the word out", you're going to be viewed as an in your face Geo-Cop. Power trails are wildly popular, and most people don't care about the stuff you're talking about. They might tell you they do when confronted with such information, but their actions speak otherwise.

 

By the way, did you report the few caches where you were confronted? Did you give the cache owner very specific information? Because I remember an incident on the London Loop (Ontario, Canada) Power Trail where a homeowner wigged out, and The confronted cache teams and Power trail owners comically couldn't seem to even figure out which cache it was causing the trouble. Just as long as it wasn't L.L. Mr.Yuck which has 1 favorites point, incidently.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

The OP describes the layout of about 90% of the power trails around the country ( U.S. )....we've done parts of a few. Like the OP I've been questioned by multiple land owners who were curious...in our case they all went away with a smile ( thinking it was a cool game or we were a bit nuts)...no problems but I could see how there could be.

I would avoid a hide in view of a house or by a mailbox.

Logging and dump trucks as well as locals do speed by and you do need to be pulled off but that is the same for ALL rural ( and urban ) caches not just PT's.

It should be remembered that fences, fence posts, gates, etc are all private property.

[+cal25]

The OP describes the layout of about 90% of the power trails around the country ( U.S. )....we've done parts of a few. Like the OP I've been questioned by multiple land owners who were curious...in our case they all went away with a smile ( thinking it was a cool game or we were a bit nuts)...no problems but I could see how there could be.

I would avoid a hide in view of a house or by a mailbox.

Logging and dump trucks as well as locals do speed by and you do need to be pulled off but that is the same for ALL rural ( and urban ) caches not just PT's.

It should be remembered that fences, fence posts, gates, etc are all private property.

 

That has been My feeling as well. I have done some sections of some power trails, but always just skip the ones in front of peoples houses or places that might raise a concern. I really do wish some people would think more about the placement of caches and have safe parking available for the cachers when the caches are placed on busy roads.

 

One other tidbit. I live on a rural county road. My property line goes to the center of the road. While I understand the road is a public place, I get a little anxious when people are on the area of my property that I mow. Soft ground and heavy vehicles play havoc with my mower.

[+beartooth72]

I wouldn't describe any of my interactions with Property Owner's as "confrontations", more like cursiousity. And I make notes on the caches on my first Powertrail, but they seem to have been ignored. If you've done a Powertrail, you know that no one (okay, maybe a few people) reads the logs, or even the description. All of my discussions with the Property Owner's were positive, and they left with a smile, or as someone else stated, that we are a bit nuts. All of the PO's were concerned about our safety and the safety of the maniacs hauling a** on the roads. One guy even let us know that during hunting season, the areas around his property are basically "bunch of guys get drunk, and shoot anything that moves". He suggested that when the sun starts to go down, after 4pm, don't even try to stop and wander in and out of bushes.

 

I'll post Needs Maintenance logs for some of the more questionable ones, especially the one at the end of the guys driveway. And I believe that people's property does extend at least up to the road in most circumstances. Fences and such are private property.

 

I've been a backpacker/hiker my whole life, and try to bring the same "Zero Impact" attitude to caching. I just wish others had the same consideration, and that they'd remember that when caching anywhere, safety is of the utmost importance. Getting a "smiley" is great, but staying alive and not getting someone else killed or injured is better.

 

Thanks for all the ideas.

[+J the Goat]

I wouldn't describe any of my interactions with Property Owner's as "confrontations", more like cursiousity. And I make notes on the caches on my first Powertrail, but they seem to have been ignored. If you've done a Powertrail, you know that no one (okay, maybe a few people) reads the logs, or even the description. All of my discussions with the Property Owner's were positive, and they left with a smile, or as someone else stated, that we are a bit nuts. All of the PO's were concerned about our safety and the safety of the maniacs hauling a** on the roads. One guy even let us know that during hunting season, the areas around his property are basically "bunch of guys get drunk, and shoot anything that moves". He suggested that when the sun starts to go down, after 4pm, don't even try to stop and wander in and out of bushes.

 

I'll post Needs Maintenance logs for some of the more questionable ones, especially the one at the end of the guys driveway. And I believe that people's property does extend at least up to the road in most circumstances. Fences and such are private property.

 

I've been a backpacker/hiker my whole life, and try to bring the same "Zero Impact" attitude to caching. I just wish others had the same consideration, and that they'd remember that when caching anywhere, safety is of the utmost importance. Getting a "smiley" is great, but staying alive and not getting someone else killed or injured is better.

 

Thanks for all the ideas.

 

Never gonna happen. As long as folks can get smilies, etiquette and rules can go out the window without a second thought.

[AZcachemeister]

 

Never gonna happen. As long as folks can get smilies, etiquette and rules can go out the window without a second thought.

 

Yup.

This is just another stage in the imminent meltdown of Geocaching that is being fueled by greed.

[+gpsblake]

I know that these powertrails are popular by the amount of traffic they have gotten.

 

Not trying to be negative on your post, but I would think the amount of traffic would be absolutely minimal... Just looking up a few Denver power trails caches, the amount of finds end up being less then 1 a day. That means 1 extra car per day at most, hardly a dent in the overall traffic.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate power trails that involve using stop and go tactics on a roadway, but I think the extra traffic argument isn't a valid one.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

Logging and dump trucks as well as locals do speed by and you do need to be pulled off but that is the same for ALL rural ( and urban ) caches not just PT's..

 

I disagree. Certainly any cache along a rural road has the potential of leading to an accident because there wasn't room to pull completely off the road close to the cache. However,

 

For a powertrail, a cache is placed along a specific spot along the road based solely on the fact that it's at least .1 of a mile from the adjacent caches along the trail. Whether or not there is a safe place to pull off the road at that location is merely a bonus. For a non-power trail cache (and no other caches nearby), the cache is placed at a spot along the road because there is (hopefully) something interesting about that location, and sometimes that just means that it's a good spot to pull off the road.

 

Secondly, assuming the premise that the point of power trails is to maximize the number of finds in a minimum amount of time, many of those seeking them are inclined to stop as close to the cache as possible so that they can minimize the amount of walking/running to the cache and get back in the car to race to the next location. For a non-power trail cache, there is no incentive to minimize the amount of time spent out of the car finding the cache. If there isn't a safe place to pull off the road close to the cache, the finder will find the nearest spot where it *is* safe, then walk to the cache.

 

So, while a single cache along a road has the potential of being unsafe, a power trail along the same road inherently provides an incentive to place "finding a lot of caches" over any safety concerns.

[+nthacker66]

I think the "fad" of power trails lacks in the good sense of those appoving them. How? A) Placing them on gaurdrails or some other "thing" on a rural road where parking isn't really an option te 528feet rule is relaxed C) "As long as it isnt ON someones private property" and D) Just good common sense placement. So please, let me explain.

 

The fact that most power trails are on long stretches of rural roads leads to many issues as mentioned above and I will elaborate here on those mentioned (and yes, there is a sense of bias in here because honestly, I think most power trails plain assed suck)

 

- Just because you CAN place a cache along a road, doesn't mean you should. I think the sense of "i have to place it here because it is part of my PT" overtakes a sense of "is this really a good place to put it?" Often, thes caches arent in an area where it is ideal to park. I know I will get hell over this but people won't be happy until someone is rear ended or a child is killed running across a road trying to get to or from a cache. These roads werent built to be parked on.

 

- PT's I have seen seem to get a little bit sloppy - where some caches are 450 apart. Reviewers know this and seem to let it go because PT's are popular and they do not want to discourage them going up.

 

- Often, these PT's are place along private property boundaries. Just because it isn't "ON" the property, doesn't mean it should be placed right along side of it. I certainly wouldn't want someone placing a cache dangling in the drain on my crub in front of my house and say "well it isnt on private prpoerty" so why should we expect people living on a rural road to do the same?

 

- Finally common sense placement. Besides my own personal dislike of PT's because to me, there is no sense of adventure in it, you aren't hiking, you arent hunting, there is no real destination, they arent particulary clever or difficult hides and it is very obviously all about a numbers run, caching is also about placing things with a little common sense. Like mentioned above.

 

flame on.

Edited November 15, 2012 by nthacker66

[+L0ne.R]

I know that these powertrails are popular by the amount of traffic they have gotten.

 

Not trying to be negative on your post, but I would think the amount of traffic would be absolutely minimal... Just looking up a few Denver power trails caches, the amount of finds end up being less then 1 a day. That means 1 extra car per day at most, hardly a dent in the overall traffic.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate power trails that involve using stop and go tactics on a roadway, but I think the extra traffic argument isn't a valid one.

 

I have visited only one roadside powertrail, north of a large city out in the country outskirts. The powertrail was planted around May 2011, I visited on Sep 9th 2011. It felt like a roadside geocaching event. My destination was a letterbox in the series (I was going to skip the rest). I'm driving along with 3 vehicles in front of me when all 3 pull off the road and join two other cars that are already parked. About 8 people get out of their vehicles and head to the hydro tower. Another .1 miles ahead there's a van and 4 people at a cache. Another .1 and another car. Then I stop at the letterbox another .1 miles up ahead. I've never seen so many cachers in one place except at an event. The owner of the house where the letterbox was placed, with permission, asked that the CO remove it after being bothered by all the traffic it generated.

[+nthacker66]

I guess all I can do is hope in the holdout that caching will swing back towards quality instead of quantity.

[+Team Rambo]

I guess all I can do is hope in the holdout that caching will swing back towards quality instead of quantity.

 

amen!

[+captnemo]

I guess all I can do is hope in the holdout that caching will swing back towards quality instead of quantity.

 

amen!

amen +1

[AZcachemeister]

...the amount of finds end up being less then 1 a day. That means 1 extra car per day at most, hardly a dent in the overall traffic.

 

Perhaps.

Perhaps not.

 

Most likely the locals know each other's vehicles.

One or two strange vehicles on a weekend (with strange people jumping out and dong strange things) is going to arouse some concern.

[+gpsblake]

My destination was a letterbox in the series (I was going to skip the rest). I'm driving along with 3 vehicles in front of me when all 3 pull off the road and join two other cars that are already parked. About 8 people get out of their vehicles and head to the hydro tower.

 

Interesting point, especially about the night cachers and such. Looking at the stats for that cache, appears they were going after this one in streaks... Sometimes 10 days would pass an no one logged it, other times seemed 10 a day were logging it, including a mass of people trying to FTF it or in this cache, a stampede of geocachers on Sept 10. Still had 58 finds in 3 months = less then one car a day. But as you pointed out, if a local landowner is upset, that's the important thing, thus cache was right in being archived.

Edited November 16, 2012 by gpsblake

[+beartooth72]

I guess all I can do is hope in the holdout that caching will swing back towards quality instead of quantity.

 

amen!

amen +1

 

amen +2

[+beartooth72]

I wasn't trying to incite anyone, I'm just curious how to get people to try to act a little safer when caching. I've put in my logs the concerns of PO's when I've encountered them. I was just trying to get some ideas on making PTs a safer, more pleasurable, and less concerning caching adventure for both the cachers and the POs.

 

I will agree, one or two cars a day isn't much, but as someone else said, the people in these areas know each other, and one or two suspicious cars is concerning. Actually, all of the POs I've talked with have been very friendly, and potentially helpful. They thought maybe I was broken down and they wanted to help. Except for the guy who had a cache placed at the end of his drive way, none of them told me they wanted the caches removed when I mentioned that if the caches were causing problems, they could be removed. Curiousity was the primary reason for starting a conversation with me.

 

The over riding theme was the need for safety, and not infringing on their private property or disturbing their livestock. It would almost be smart to put a sign at the start of a PT road that requests some common courtesy and watch out for safety.

[Flamingo&Frog]

There is a power trail that starts about 2 miles from my house. We did about 90 of the 200 caches before getting burned out and bored. There was a whole section of the trail where I wouldn't let my kid get out of the car to look because I didn't feel safe due to the speed on the road and the lack of a good space to pull off the road. I don't think that safety or parking is a big factor in power trail creation.

[+SwineFlew]

If I was those neighbors, I will ask GS to archived them. GS is more likely to do it.

[+NeverSummer]

I guess all I can do is hope in the holdout that caching will swing back towards quality instead of quantity.

 

amen!

amen +1

amen +2

I agree. But...

How many of us that feel this way haven't felt some kind of angst about

1)not having as many finds on our profile as someone else who gets more "respect" or "notoriety"

2)seeing someone log an event mulitple time to get credit for temporary caches

3)cache quality in general

4)not getting recognition for placing and maintaining caches carefully

5)placing caches that are "quality", but not visited as much as we'd hope

6)wondering if having more hides or finds makes you more of an "authority" on geocaching

7)the guidelines for placement and maintenance

8) etc.

 

Some call others "puritans", "sticks-in-the-mud", or whatever if they don't "get with the times" and enjoy the evolution of the game. However, at some point, I think those that share the view in the quote above have a very valid point. If the only metric we, and others, see is a "find" statistic, how is it not tied to some kind of rating of geocachers?

 

If power trails are "allowed" by the guidelines, and folks have access and desire to build a find count and not a "quality find count", they will do so. Until there is a shift back to geocaching as it was first created--location,swag, and fun with updated GPS technology--the game will continue to evolve toward the trend of numbers mattering more than intended.

 

More of the "why bother with size and swag, if all people want is another increase in find numbers and will take without trading anyway?" mentality. More "It is too much work to hide a cache that requires a hike and invest in quality containers and routine maintenance." More "I'm going to put out as many as I can, as fast as I can, and spread them so far that I can't reasonably mainain them because I have a life other than geocaching and just want more hide stats so I'm seen as prolific." More "I want more finds, so I'm in support of more power trails and caches in general, no matter the location, quality or maintenance level."

 

</rant> Sorry about that. Just need to vent from time to time.

 

That's to say, power trails will continue because they will. But, they, just like every other cache placement, should be maintained and dealt with if there is land owner concern, or unintended disturbance to the surrounding areas. The guidelines speak to this if you read them that way. But not all of us read the same way...

[AZcachemeister]

 

I agree. But...

How many of us that feel this way haven't felt some kind of angst about

1)not having as many finds on our profile as someone else who gets more "respect" or "notoriety"

2)seeing someone log an event mulitple time to get credit for temporary caches

3)cache quality in general

4)not getting recognition for placing and maintaining caches carefully

5)placing caches that are "quality", but not visited as much as we'd hope

6)wondering if having more hides or finds makes you more of an "authority" on geocaching

7)the guidelines for placement and maintenance

8) etc.

 

Some call others "puritans", "sticks-in-the-mud", or whatever if they don't "get with the times" and enjoy the evolution of the game. However, at some point, I think those that share the view in the quote above have a very valid point. If the only metric we, and others, see is a "find" statistic, how is it not tied to some kind of rating of geocachers?

 

If power trails are "allowed" by the guidelines, and folks have access and desire to build a find count and not a "quality find count", they will do so. Until there is a shift back to geocaching as it was first created--location,swag, and fun with updated GPS technology--the game will continue to evolve toward the trend of numbers mattering more than intended.

 

More of the "why bother with size and swag, if all people want is another increase in find numbers and will take without trading anyway?" mentality. More "It is too much work to hide a cache that requires a hike and invest in quality containers and routine maintenance." More "I'm going to put out as many as I can, as fast as I can, and spread them so far that I can't reasonably mainain them because I have a life other than geocaching and just want more hide stats so I'm seen as prolific." More "I want more finds, so I'm in support of more power trails and caches in general, no matter the location, quality or maintenance level."

 

</rant> Sorry about that. Just need to vent from time to time.

 

That's to say, power trails will continue because they will. But, they, just like every other cache placement, should be maintained and dealt with if there is land owner concern, or unintended disturbance to the surrounding areas. The guidelines speak to this if you read them that way. But not all of us read the same way...

 

1)not having as many finds on our profile as someone else who gets more "respect" or "notoriety"

 

I would hope any respect or notoriety I get would be based on the quality of my caches, not the number of them.

 

2)seeing someone log an event mulitple time to get credit for temporary caches

 

A pathetic abuse of the system, but if that is how they want to do it then they can choose to appear pathetic.

 

3)cache quality in general

 

A big problem, all I can do is lead by example.

 

4)not getting recognition for placing and maintaining caches carefully

 

I don't really need any 'recognition', but I suppose it might be nice.

 

5)placing caches that are "quality", but not visited as much as we'd hope

 

If folks would rather find a slough of caches along a powertrail as opposed to finding one or two of my 'Quality caches', that is their choice. Would you rather have a fast-food burger, or a prime rib dinner?

 

6)wondering if having more hides or finds makes you more of an "authority" on geocaching

 

More hides may or may not mean much. Having more finds could probably mean you have seen more of what others have done to hide caches, so that could make you an authority of sorts.

 

7)the guidelines for placement and maintenance

 

The only angst I have felt about the guidelines was when the guidelines were not the definitive guidelines for cache placement, and the 'Knowledge Books' needed to be consulted. IMNSHO, this is a major screw-up by Groundspeak. When I go to list a cache, ALL the details I need to comply with should be in the 'Cache Placement Guidelines' I get shown when I click on the link on the 'Hide A Cache' page. Perhaps this has been fixed? One can only hope...

[+NeverSummer]

 

I agree. But...

How many of us that feel this way haven't felt some kind of angst about

1)not having as many finds on our profile as someone else who gets more "respect" or "notoriety"

2)seeing someone log an event mulitple time to get credit for temporary caches

3)cache quality in general

4)not getting recognition for placing and maintaining caches carefully

5)placing caches that are "quality", but not visited as much as we'd hope

6)wondering if having more hides or finds makes you more of an "authority" on geocaching

7)the guidelines for placement and maintenance

8) etc.

 

Some call others "puritans", "sticks-in-the-mud", or whatever if they don't "get with the times" and enjoy the evolution of the game. However, at some point, I think those that share the view in the quote above have a very valid point. If the only metric we, and others, see is a "find" statistic, how is it not tied to some kind of rating of geocachers?

 

If power trails are "allowed" by the guidelines, and folks have access and desire to build a find count and not a "quality find count", they will do so. Until there is a shift back to geocaching as it was first created--location,swag, and fun with updated GPS technology--the game will continue to evolve toward the trend of numbers mattering more than intended.

 

More of the "why bother with size and swag, if all people want is another increase in find numbers and will take without trading anyway?" mentality. More "It is too much work to hide a cache that requires a hike and invest in quality containers and routine maintenance." More "I'm going to put out as many as I can, as fast as I can, and spread them so far that I can't reasonably mainain them because I have a life other than geocaching and just want more hide stats so I'm seen as prolific." More "I want more finds, so I'm in support of more power trails and caches in general, no matter the location, quality or maintenance level."

 

</rant> Sorry about that. Just need to vent from time to time.

 

That's to say, power trails will continue because they will. But, they, just like every other cache placement, should be maintained and dealt with if there is land owner concern, or unintended disturbance to the surrounding areas. The guidelines speak to this if you read them that way. But not all of us read the same way...

 

1)not having as many finds on our profile as someone else who gets more "respect" or "notoriety"

 

I would hope any respect or notoriety I get would be based on the quality of my caches, not the number of them.

 

2)seeing someone log an event mulitple time to get credit for temporary caches

 

A pathetic abuse of the system, but if that is how they want to do it then they can choose to appear pathetic.

 

3)cache quality in general

 

A big problem, all I can do is lead by example.

 

4)not getting recognition for placing and maintaining caches carefully

 

I don't really need any 'recognition', but I suppose it might be nice.

 

5)placing caches that are "quality", but not visited as much as we'd hope

 

If folks would rather find a slough of caches along a powertrail as opposed to finding one or two of my 'Quality caches', that is their choice. Would you rather have a fast-food burger, or a prime rib dinner?

 

6)wondering if having more hides or finds makes you more of an "authority" on geocaching

 

More hides may or may not mean much. Having more finds could probably mean you have seen more of what others have done to hide caches, so that could make you an authority of sorts.

 

7)the guidelines for placement and maintenance

 

The only angst I have felt about the guidelines was when the guidelines were not the definitive guidelines for cache placement, and the 'Knowledge Books' needed to be consulted. IMNSHO, this is a major screw-up by Groundspeak. When I go to list a cache, ALL the details I need to comply with should be in the 'Cache Placement Guidelines' I get shown when I click on the link on the 'Hide A Cache' page. Perhaps this has been fixed? One can only hope...

All good points. I was trying more to outline the complaints about geocaches and geocaching that tend to come up. It seems that some angst comes along with the idea that a find count is a rating system to some people. If finding a ton of caches is your thing, that's great. But I'd rather say my diet was balanced, and mostly made up of delicious, memorable meals instead of a double McCheese. But most folks make a stop for a fast food now and again...but a steady diet of that stuff is pretty bad for you.

[+jcanyoneer]

This-in my opinion-is what a power trail should be!

 

http://coord.info/GC41DN3

 

zoom out!

[AZcachemeister]

My Ignore List runneth over!