Fire OK?

[+DazarGaidin]

I'm working on a puzzle cache, and I have a question. Is it ok to require them to use a lighter? I know it has to be kid friendly, but boyscouts use fire all the time so I'm not sure. I wont need them to start a fire, just use the flame for a brief moment (nothing is ignited).

 

I could probably do what i need to do with more convoluted means that don't involve a flame, but I'd rather keep it straight forward.

Edited November 9, 2012 by DazarGaidin

[+TerraViators]

I'm working on a puzzle cache, and I have a question. Is it ok to require them to use a lighter? I know it has to be kid friendly, but boyscouts use fire all the time so I'm not sure. I wont need them to start a fire, just use the flame for a brief moment (nothing is ignited).

 

I could probably do what i need to do with more convoluted means that don't involve a flame, but I'd rather keep it straight forward.

As a general tool for the puzzle, it doesn't bother me. There may be issues with fire rules in some parks, etc.

[+DazarGaidin]

Hmm I didn't think about that. Thanks for the insight. I'll have to consider carefully where it is placed.

Edited November 9, 2012 by DazarGaidin

[+Shaved Ewok]

Hmm I didn't think about that. Thanks for the insight. I'll have to consider carefully where it is placed.

Just curious, if they will not be required to burn anything, why couldn't they just use a flash light?

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Hmm I didn't think about that. Thanks for the insight. I'll have to consider carefully where it is placed.

Just curious, if they will not be required to burn anything, why couldn't they just use a flash light?

 

My guess is they are going to use sympathetic (invisible) ink, that requires heat to make it visible.

[+ras_oscar]

Make sure you list the requiremnt to carry a fire source for all us non smokers. It's kinda suck to walk 6 miles and not be able to log the cache because I didn't bring the correct tool.

[+ngrrfan]

Hmm I didn't think about that. Thanks for the insight. I'll have to consider carefully where it is placed.

Just curious, if they will not be required to burn anything, why couldn't they just use a flash light?

 

My guess is they are going to use sympathetic (invisible) ink, that requires heat to make it visible.

Be prepared to replace the clue sheet many times as it ignites and burns.

 

IMHO.... although a neat idea, not one that is realistically feasible.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Hmm I didn't think about that. Thanks for the insight. I'll have to consider carefully where it is placed.

Just curious, if they will not be required to burn anything, why couldn't they just use a flash light?

 

My guess is they are going to use sympathetic (invisible) ink, that requires heat to make it visible.

Be prepared to replace the clue sheet many times as it ignites and burns.

 

IMHO.... although a neat idea, not one that is realistically feasible.

 

Sure it is. You just need to have multiple clue sheets. Puzzles/Multis in the woods don't get many visits in my area, so the number of sheets you need in the stage would be less than 20 to get you through a year or more.

[+ScoutDadNC]

I think that I have seen something like this before. YOu are required to heat a sensor up to a certain temp to unlock it. It looks pretty cool. I would only recommend that people bring a Grill Lighter. Less change that they are going to burn their fingers when they try it. Holding a standard BIC can cause some minor burns, and although minor, still hurt.

[+CanadianRockies]

I know it has to be kid friendly...

The swag should be kid friendly, especially since unsupervised muggle kids might accidentally stumble across a cache. Thus you should not leave a lighter as swag (or as a tool that is intended to permanently remain inside a cache).

 

But I'm not aware of any guideline that says the cache itself must be kid friendly. In fact, there's an attribute available that owners can use to warn when caches are not kid friendly.

[+Shaved Ewok]

I'm also curious as to how well the ink used to write the message will hold up to water.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

I'm also curious as to how well the ink used to write the message will hold up to water.

 

The ink I tried at home was made using water and ferrous sulfate (iron supplement). The water evaporates, leaving the iron behind. Not sure what would happen if the paper got wet. I suppose I'll need to try that.

[+dphickey]

I would check the laws in the area regarding the use of fire, some areas are prone to forest fires......

[+Don_J]

I was taught 49 years ago to not play with fire. You think a bomb scare is spectacular news, imagine a forest fire or a cacher burning down a 100 Mc Mansions in the hills of Southern California.

 

I just can't get behind this. As cache owners we can't even count on people to be responsible enough to not trample the daisies. The last thing I would want is them playing with fire on my behalf.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Sounds like an intriguing idea. I say go for it. Maybe make it a bit of a hike to get to, though.

[+jellis]

I'm working on a puzzle cache, and I have a question. Is it ok to require them to use a lighter? I know it has to be kid friendly, but boyscouts use fire all the time so I'm not sure. I wont need them to start a fire, just use the flame for a brief moment (nothing is ignited).

 

I could probably do what i need to do with more convoluted means that don't involve a flame, but I'd rather keep it straight forward.

Having one in the cache I doubt it, bringing one to a cache I guess you would have seek advice from the reviewer. If is needed to lets say getting a message from a lemon juice secret ink I would make sure it is supervised if there are children. As a requirement to the puzzle I'm not sure they would allow that.

[+DazarGaidin]

Thanks for the input everyone I will say that ink isn't involved, and a flashlight wouldn't work. I will try to engineer this in a way that removes some of the risk/user from the equation, but of course that makes it less fun. If i can swing it, I'll have this leg on private land (probably the final leg).

[+Sol seaker]

Hi Dazar,

 

I notice you've only found two caches.

It sounds like you've got some creative ideas for caches, but you might want to find some more first before you place some. You're not required to, but it helps you get a better idea of what you're in for with a cache, especially with a cache on private property.

Welcome to the game. Have fun!

SS

Edited November 11, 2012 by Sol seaker

[+Team Periwinkle]

I was taught 49 years ago to not play with fire. You think a bomb scare is spectacular news, imagine a forest fire or a cacher burning down a 100 Mc Mansions in the hills of Southern California.

 

I just can't get behind this. As cache owners we can't even count on people to be responsible enough to not trample the daisies. The last thing I would want is them playing with fire on my behalf.

 

+1

 

Never play with fire is a good guideline - besides the risk to the forest or the McMansions, I think the risk of burns or catching clothes on fire is a good reason never to encourage playing with fire.

[+Planet]

Fire bad.

Fire not good for geocaching.

Fire good to stay warm.

Fire in forest very bad.

Please no fire.

 

You might do it right, but someone else will try it too, and do it wrong, and then someone else will follow suit and it will degrade from there.

That's what happened to quality caches, and why people think a zip lock makes a suitable cache container, or why people think putting a cache inside a plastic bag is a good idea. Because someone else did it. Please rethink the idea.

 

You can create heat by rubbing your hands together really vigorously. How warm does it have to be?

[+Original A1]

Planet said what I would, only better. Whilst you may be responsible/able with fire, and I might be, and 99% of the cachers out there probably are too, it just takes one slight mishap and there's a major problem. If it's out somewhere remote, even more of a problem.

 

So much of the world's vegetation and wildlife seems to get needlessly obliterated each year through mishaps, deliberate or otherwise, and it would be horrible to see the good name of Geocaching caught up in that.

 

Shame, but...

 

[GrandPotentate]

If you wet your paper with mixture of borax and water and the let it dry, the paper will be flame retardant. It'll still char and turn to ash, but it will not actually catch fire and sustain a flame.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Dr H0rrible

[+Planet]

If you wet your paper with mixture of borax and water and the let it dry, the paper will be flame retardant. It'll still char and turn to ash, but it will not actually catch fire and sustain a flame.

 

That's great for the paper, but what about the dry leaves, grass, brush, twigs, mulch, and other flammable items in the area?

 

FIRE BAD!

[GrandPotentate]

If you wet your paper with mixture of borax and water and the let it dry, the paper will be flame retardant. It'll still char and turn to ash, but it will not actually catch fire and sustain a flame.

 

That's great for the paper, but what about the dry leaves, grass, brush, twigs, mulch, and other flammable items in the area?

 

FIRE BAD!

 

Fire is the result of the rapid oxidization of hydrocarbons therefore fire = indifferent and neutral. The careless or malicious handling of fire by humans = bad. I can think of several places in my hometown where placing a cache like this could work and would require the use of a blowtorch or an accelerate before there would be the danger of the fire spreading to the natural environment or surrounding buildings. But then again I have been thinking of ways to do an elemental series of caches (one using fire, one using water, one using earth, and one using air) for quite sometime.

 

Nothing in the guidelines say that geocaches need to be idiot proof, if that were the case, I think most 5 star terrains would be against the rules. I think this is a matter of personal responsibility, if the CO makes reasonable efforts to safeguard the surrounding environment, I think a cache that involves fire could work. Otherwise, we might as well end the sport now, because there are smokers who participate while having a lite cigarette that could start a forest fire if said cigarette were to fall out of their possession in the moment of exultation upon the finding of a geocache.

[+Don_J]

If you wet your paper with mixture of borax and water and the let it dry, the paper will be flame retardant. It'll still char and turn to ash, but it will not actually catch fire and sustain a flame.

 

That's great for the paper, but what about the dry leaves, grass, brush, twigs, mulch, and other flammable items in the area?

 

FIRE BAD!

 

Fire is the result of the rapid oxidization of hydrocarbons therefore fire = indifferent and neutral. The careless or malicious handling of fire by humans = bad. I can think of several places in my hometown where placing a cache like this could work and would require the use of a blowtorch or an accelerate before there would be the danger of the fire spreading to the natural environment or surrounding buildings. But then again I have been thinking of ways to do an elemental series of caches (one using fire, one using water, one using earth, and one using air) for quite sometime.

 

Nothing in the guidelines say that geocaches need to be idiot proof, if that were the case, I think most 5 star terrains would be against the rules. I think this is a matter of personal responsibility, if the CO makes reasonable efforts to safeguard the surrounding environment, I think a cache that involves fire could work. Otherwise, we might as well end the sport now, because there are smokers who participate while having a lite cigarette that could start a forest fire if said cigarette were to fall out of their possession in the moment of exultation upon the finding of a geocache.

 

There is a difference here. When someone screws up on a 5 star terrain, they put themselves and maybe the rescuers at risk. When someone screws up playing with fire at a cache, innocent people and animals lose their homes. As far as walking around in a forest smoking a cigarette, I think Ron White has a saying for that. Around here, you'd be breaking the law. Maybe I'm over sensitive to this issue as I live in a valley surrounded by mountains, all of which have burned over the 40 years that I have been here. A few years back, a brush fire raced out of the mountains and burned down 450 mobile homes. Later that year, the biggest fire in California history took out a large portion of the Angeles National Forest. The mud flow in the following spring rains took out about 100 homes.

 

The idea of someone sitting up in our mountains, trying to decode a secret message with a Bic lighter simply scares the Hell out of me.

[GrandPotentate]

If you wet your paper with mixture of borax and water and the let it dry, the paper will be flame retardant. It'll still char and turn to ash, but it will not actually catch fire and sustain a flame.

 

That's great for the paper, but what about the dry leaves, grass, brush, twigs, mulch, and other flammable items in the area?

 

FIRE BAD!

 

Fire is the result of the rapid oxidization of hydrocarbons therefore fire = indifferent and neutral. The careless or malicious handling of fire by humans = bad. I can think of several places in my hometown where placing a cache like this could work and would require the use of a blowtorch or an accelerate before there would be the danger of the fire spreading to the natural environment or surrounding buildings. But then again I have been thinking of ways to do an elemental series of caches (one using fire, one using water, one using earth, and one using air) for quite sometime.

 

Nothing in the guidelines say that geocaches need to be idiot proof, if that were the case, I think most 5 star terrains would be against the rules. I think this is a matter of personal responsibility, if the CO makes reasonable efforts to safeguard the surrounding environment, I think a cache that involves fire could work. Otherwise, we might as well end the sport now, because there are smokers who participate while having a lite cigarette that could start a forest fire if said cigarette were to fall out of their possession in the moment of exultation upon the finding of a geocache.

 

There is a difference here. When someone screws up on a 5 star terrain, they put themselves and maybe the rescuers at risk. When someone screws up playing with fire at a cache, innocent people and animals lose their homes. As far as walking around in a forest smoking a cigarette, I think Ron White has a saying for that. Around here, you'd be breaking the law. Maybe I'm over sensitive to this issue as I live in a valley surrounded by mountains, all of which have burned over the 40 years that I have been here. A few years back, a brush fire raced out of the mountains and burned down 450 mobile homes. Later that year, the biggest fire in California history took out a large portion of the Angeles National Forest. The mud flow in the following spring rains took out about 100 homes.

 

The idea of someone sitting up in our mountains, trying to decode a secret message with a Bic lighter simply scares the Hell out of me.

 

And that is why I said the CO should make reasonable efforts, like not placing the cache in an area that could catch fire from a stray spark. In most of the city parks in my area, we have grills already in place. These areas tend to be well maintained and typically have little to no combustible material around. If the part of the cache that needed the heat source from a lighter was hidden near one of these grills and the CO mentioned in the description that if the cacher feels there is a risk of starting a wildfire that they should solve the field puzzle using the grill.

 

Just because something may not be safe in one area of the world, doesn't mean it isn't safe anywhere in the world. I wouldn't place a cache that required someone to wade through a river in alligator infested areas, but I have 2 caches that require wading in Ohio.

[+Student Camper]

I was taught 49 years ago to not play with fire. You think a bomb scare is spectacular news, imagine a forest fire or a cacher burning down a 100 Mc Mansions in the hills of Southern California.

 

I just can't get behind this. As cache owners we can't even count on people to be responsible enough to not trample the daisies. The last thing I would want is them playing with fire on my behalf.

 

Unfortunately, I have to go with this, so true.

[+dphickey]

Let me also point at that with this last year's drought, many places (even the ones that have grills and fire rings at campsites) have been and may still be under a total fire ban. In this town alone this summer there were 4 brush fires, 2 started by cars on the highway, and one by kids playing with fireworks. When you place a cache, you will have no idea what conditions will be like in a month, 6 months or years down the road.

IMHO this is a bad idea.

[+larryc43230]

I'm not at all sure this is a good idea, for the reasons others have pointed out. I'm not so much concerned about cachers burning themselves (people are always managing to do themselves a mischief), I'm worried about the potential for causing a forest fire or grass fire.

 

Also, I don't smoke (I quit 27 years ago), and I normally don't carry anything that could start a fire, either matches or a lighter. If I hiked into the woods, found a cache, and only then discovered that I would need some sort of flame to solve a puzzle or whatever, I would be mightily irritated. If this idea becomes a reality, I would hope that the cache owner would give prior warning about this unusual requirement.

 

--Larry

[stargatekrewe]

I think it's pretty clear cut here, bad idea. I have a cache called Fahrenheit 451. I wanted to put in a pen-lighter (non-functional lighter, but working pen of course). I thought it was a brilliant idea. The reviewer, not so much. So I know you think you have a brilliant idea, but let everyone's opinions here settle in, and realize it shouldn't be implemented no matter how much you like it or want to do it. What I do think is great is that you came here first for opinions without just going out and doing it without the vetting process. So I applaud you for that. Too many cachers, who think they have brilliant ideas, go ahead and implement without ever asking their friends or geocaching clubs for feedback first. Only to find out they broke the rules, their implementation was poor, they were on private property without approval, they could have done this better or that better, types of glues, types of magnets, containers, camo, paper. So many people don't think about drainage. Water is going to get in, what are you going to do about it? I saw a fake benchmark, brilliant idea, but poorly implemented. They didn't consider drainage and there is standing water all under it, everything is rusting, and the log basically sits under water. Not even a bison tube can last long in those conditions. Long story short, keep talking about your ideas before implementing, and I appreciate you doing that here.

Edited November 15, 2012 by stargatekrewe

[GrandPotentate]

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few" - Zen Meditation

 

I don't think that the opinions of other cachers settles anything here. I say if you feel that you have made reasonable efforts to safeguard the surrounding environment, then go for it. Don't let someone else's fears dictate your actions. Like I said before, a cache you have to wade to get to might terrify someone from a swamp but that doesn't mean that every wading cache in the world should not be allowed.

 

And for your final moment of zen:

The obstacle is the path