"pub crawl" multi- would this be allowable?

October 29, 2012

We'd like to do a multi around our little town, and the wife had the idea of one where you went around a few of the pubs to get clues for the next co-ords - so basically the initial co-ordinates would take you to Pub #1 and you'd have to solve a clue to get the digits for the next.

Before we plan this though, what are the rules?

- could we use clues from *inside* pubs? (for instance, pub 'x' claims to have 5 ghosts haunting its basement)

- I saw reference to names not being allowed?

- point 1 would reduce potential audience (some pubs don't allow kids after 6), or aren't open early morning, but that would be ok...

We'd hate to come up with a great series and the reviewer say no!

October 29, 2012

We have a number of pub multi's here in Hertfordshire called Real Ale Regulars. They all cover items that can be seen from outside the pub however I don't know if you can use inside clues.

1.7k · October 29, 2012

In short I would say probably yes as there are plenty of these in existence, however they might not comply with current rules guidelines and are grandfathered in.

I would suspect that the clues would need to be obtained without entering the premises.

Not sure about using names this does seem to be variable, however you will not be aloud to state things such as "the ale in this pub is very good".

Your best plan of action is to contact your local reviewer who will give you chapter & verse.

1.6k · October 29, 2012

I don't see why not.... I've been to caches that were inside business establishments.

It would have to be a PUZZLE and you should specify clearly in the description that the clues can only be found during normal business hours. You might also want to mention..."Not Family Friendly" - as there may be concerns with taking people under the legal drinking age inside a pub.

7.3k · October 29, 2012

We'd like to do a multi around our little town, and the wife had the idea of one where you went around a few of the pubs to get clues for the next co-ords - so basically the initial co-ordinates would take you to Pub #1 and you'd have to solve a clue to get the digits for the next.

Before we plan this though, what are the rules?

- could we use clues from *inside* pubs? (for instance, pub 'x' claims to have 5 ghosts haunting its basement)

- I saw reference to names not being allowed?

- point 1 would reduce potential audience (some pubs don't allow kids after 6), or aren't open early morning, but that would be ok...

We'd hate to come up with a great series and the reviewer say no!

You've read through the Guidelines?

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.book&id=11

You could always contact your reviewer first and get an official answer before going ahead, rather than asking on the forums. Posting here *might* get a reviewer's response, but mostly it would be non-reviewers giving their past experiences, which mean nothing, or their best guesses.

B.

October 29, 2012

Thanks for all the pointers folks; sounds like it may be a go-er but I'll definitely look up our local reviewer and check before doing anything!

October 29, 2012

You cannot mention the pub name as that is a commercial business; nor any references to the products they sell such as the beer as that would then be promoting the business. As for going into a pub to get clues the guideline says it goes against the guideline if it does this:

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

Apart from that you should be fine :rolleyes:

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

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Edited October 29, 2012 by Graculus

October 29, 2012

This is something very similar that I'm solving in stages at the moment:

Ale Trail - A Taste of History

I'm sure it'll get a favourite point from me when I eventually stagger to the end.

Mark

October 31, 2012

This was one I recently archived due to changes in the info and all the locals have found it and so only gets the odd visit. Worked well for a few years.

http://coord.info/GC1WHE5

"nor any references to the products they sell such as the beer as that would then be promoting the business"

Chris - you are surely kidding!! Seriously, you can't mention beer? Or do you actually mean the brand of beer? That might make more sense! :lol:

October 31, 2012

You cannot mention the pub name as that is a commercial business; nor any references to the products they sell such as the beer as that would then be promoting the business. As for going into a pub to get clues the guideline says it goes against the guideline if it does this:

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

Apart from that you should be fine

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

UK Geocaching Wiki

Geocaching.com Help Center

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website

Apologies for going off-topic, but what about pub names in event cache listings? E.g. "The event is at the Hare & Hounds on 31st October at 6:30pm". I've seen plenty of those I think? I have seen event listings that say the food is particularly nice or whatever, and for me that's crossing the line a bit.

October 31, 2012

I keep meaning to attempt this one:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=aa623a46-621f-4789-b262-4226d12de00b

Ref: GC1WEKG

October 31, 2012

I would also be interested in feedback from a Reviewer as to whether this cache of mine - long since archived would meet current guidance/rules.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c1f15472-84d8-4f4a-94f8-4c043f218694

I have been thinking of resurrecting it.

October 31, 2012

I would also be interested in feedback from a Reviewer as to whether this cache of mine - long since archived would meet current guidance/rules.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c1f15472-84d8-4f4a-94f8-4c043f218694

I have been thinking of resurrecting it.

No, not really as it mentions pubs by names. Unless the pubs are now closed any current pubs would be considered commercial. To me, if you can't give details of the pub it kind of makes a cache series about pubs unworkable.

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

UK Geocaching Wiki

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2.2k · October 31, 2012

Well it just involves using bits of information that can be obtained from the locations..." the third letter of the large name you can see" etc.

It's not promoting a specific business surely if it's called "Pub crawl"

Didn't we get agreement last year that we can use pubs as reference points to give directions? How is that different from using them as points on a multi that guides you around the area... you aren't promoting a thing unless you mention how good the food or beer is in each establishment. Just leave it to the cachers to decide if and when they wish to stop for a rest......

November 1, 2012

Well it just involves using bits of information that can be obtained from the locations..." the third letter of the large name you can see" etc.

A certain devilish streak has me wondering if you could do a similar sort of thing with a multi that involves going to various charity shops

November 1, 2012

Well it just involves using bits of information that can be obtained from the locations..." the third letter of the large name you can see" etc.

It's not promoting a specific business surely if it's called "Pub crawl"

Didn't we get agreement last year that we can use pubs as reference points to give directions? How is that different from using them as points on a multi that guides you around the area... you aren't promoting a thing unless you mention how good the food or beer is in each establishment. Just leave it to the cachers to decide if and when they wish to stop for a rest......

Point 5 in the commercial guideline:

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

UK Geocaching Wiki

Geocaching.com Help Center

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website

November 1, 2012

You cannot mention the pub name as that is a commercial business; nor any references to the products they sell such as the beer as that would then be promoting the business. As for going into a pub to get clues the guideline says it goes against the guideline if it does this:

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

UK Geocaching Wiki

Geocaching.com Help Center

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website

Didn't we get agreement last year that we can use pubs as reference points to give directions? How is that different from using them as points on a multi that guides you around the area... you aren't promoting a thing unless you mention how good the food or beer is in each establishment. Just leave it to the cachers to decide if and when they wish to stop for a rest......

I have always thought the ban on Pub names a case of taking freedom from commercialism many steps too far.

So how about this for a topic for discussion:

"British Pub Names are banned from the titles and, largely, from the content of cache pages.

This is for fear of the taint of commercialism.

The Harry Potter franchise is one of the most profitable literary franchises in history.

There are 368 caches (worldwide) that contain the Harry Potter name in their titles.

Whay are they not banned because of the taint of commercialism?" :blink: :blink:

3.7k · November 1, 2012

Back on the old "pub commercialism" thread again!

I think that this has always suffered from the American misunderstanding of British pubs, much though they claim to know all about them and even though a lot of US bars are quite similar to our pubs. Funnily enough, there don't seem to be many of that type in Seattle, even though there are plenty in New York; so could it be that the Settle bias is behind the difficulties? I'm only guessing. Anyway, it's nonsense to say that simply mentioning pub names without even recommending or reviewing them is "commercial promotion". As we well know, even if there's a whole pub series (similar to the Pub Signs category in Waymarking) it would not devalue geocaching one jot if the pub names were mentioned. On the other hand, trying to mention a pub without using its name is silly.

Wouldn't it be nice if Groundspeak could split into various regional sections under the Geocaching.com umbrella, but each part run by people local to the area and with the ability to amend certain guidelines to suit the culture of that part of the world! Then we might get somewhere with the notion that most pub names aren't the name of the business at all and mentioning that you turn left at the Dog and Duck is not some sort of inducement to buy something from them. Or even that a listing could be helpful to visitors from outside the area and actually suggest a couple of pubs where shelter and refreshment might be found. I think that any reviewer would spot the difference between that and "why not visit my pub whem in the area and get 10% off lunch if you mention this cache". Or are reviewers thought to be too stupid to be trusted?

November 1, 2012

Back on the old "pub commercialism" thread again!

I think that this has always suffered from the American misunderstanding of British pubs, much though they claim to know all about them and even though a lot of US bars are quite similar to our pubs. Funnily enough, there don't seem to be many of that type in Seattle, even though there are plenty in New York; so could it be that the Settle bias is behind the difficulties? I'm only guessing. Anyway, it's nonsense to say that simply mentioning pub names without even recommending or reviewing them is "commercial promotion". As we well know, even if there's a whole pub series (similar to the Pub Signs category in Waymarking) it would not devalue geocaching one jot if the pub names were mentioned. On the other hand, trying to mention a pub without using its name is silly.

Wouldn't it be nice if Groundspeak could split into various regional sections under the Geocaching.com umbrella, but each part run by people local to the area and with the ability to amend certain guidelines to suit the culture of that part of the world! Then we might get somewhere with the notion that most pub names aren't the name of the business at all and mentioning that you turn left at the Dog and Duck is not some sort of inducement to buy something from them. Or even that a listing could be helpful to visitors from outside the area and actually suggest a couple of pubs where shelter and refreshment might be found. I think that any reviewer would spot the difference between that and "why not visit my pub whem in the area and get 10% off lunch if you mention this cache". Or are reviewers thought to be too stupid to be trusted?

Andy, I totally agree and wish TPTB could see the sense in what you say.

I was once very heavily criticised for suggesting that there were differences in culture and language between some aspects of life in UK and in another place across the seas.

Trying to buck this differential has resulted in at least 5 reviewers that I know/knew personally giving up their "job" as they would not allow themselves to be coerced into a position they could not support.

Mind I am sure there are some who would say, "Jolly good job too!"

In a recent correspondance with GSP I was told that, since I was a volunteer, there had been changes in the lackeys in Seattle and that they were anxious to get feed back.

I wonder..........

2.2k · November 1, 2012

Sorry chris I wasn't being funny. I know that there was a blanket ban on commercial interests I just remember you all coming back from a jolly walk with Jeremy in Wales having shown him how we use pubs as directions.

I understood that it was agreed that he didn't understand previously how the British are different in that to the Americans and that subsequently it would be ok to use them in that manner.

But I may be mis remembering that.

At the end of the day it's farcical but call the multi "Pub crawl" say that there are several stops along the way but that you wont be mentioning anything about them specifically. Each stage is identified by some code word....maybe Todka, Hitter, Hager...... can't see that it would fall foul unless you specifically say that people should partake in anything that they couldn't decide for themselves as they walked.

6.1k · November 1, 2012

How about a pub crawl cache using the idea of the pub cricket game we used to play on long car journeys; you get 1 point for every leg in the name of the pub, so the Kings Arms is 2 (2 legs), the Red Lion=4, Dog and Duck=6, work that into the usual N AB CD.EFG WHIJ KL.MNO idea; the cacher gets sent round all the pubs but no need to name them.

For the record I too think it's silly that you can send someone to a set of co-ords right at the front door of the pub but you can't mention it's name.

November 1, 2012

How about a pub crawl cache using the idea of the pub cricket game we used to play on long car journeys; you get 1 point for every leg in the name of the pub, so the Kings Arms is 2 (2 legs), the Red Lion=4, Dog and Duck=6, work that into the usual N AB CD.EFG WHIJ KL.MNO idea; the cacher gets sent round all the pubs but no need to name them.

For the record I too think it's silly that you can send someone to a set of co-ords right at the front door of the pub but you can't mention it's name.

How can the Kings arms have 2 legs (lol)

November 2, 2012

I am surprised that anyone responding to this thread (who no doubt has a healthy attraction to a pub crawl multi) could not only set a multi that took you to all the establishments concerned without mentioning names but could also find the door of said establishment even if the co-ords/GPS signal was a few hundred feet off.

I have been known to find the ladies bonce or the nag noir on a caching series even if I had to make a 1 mile detour.

3.7k · November 2, 2012

How about a pub crawl cache using the idea of the pub cricket game we used to play on long car journeys; you get 1 point for every leg in the name of the pub, so the Kings Arms is 2 (2 legs), the Red Lion=4, Dog and Duck=6, work that into the usual N AB CD.EFG WHIJ KL.MNO idea; the cacher gets sent round all the pubs but no need to name them.

For the record I too think it's silly that you can send someone to a set of co-ords right at the front door of the pub but you can't mention it's name.

Great idea for a puzzle cache! I remember playing that game.

3.7k · November 2, 2012

I am surprised that anyone responding to this thread (who no doubt has a healthy attraction to a pub crawl multi) could not only set a multi that took you to all the establishments concerned without mentioning names but could also find the door of said establishment even if the co-ords/GPS signal was a few hundred feet off.

I have been known to find the ladies bonce or the nag noir on a caching series even if I had to make a 1 mile detour.

That's true, but it's a bit ridiculous to have to avoid using the pub names when you're sending people on a pub crawl.

Anyway, there should be a rule that you have to drink a pint in each of the pubs (apart from the nominated driver, of course!). Could that be a valid "challenge" rather than a cache?

6.1k · November 2, 2012

Anyway, there should be a rule that you have to drink a pint in each of the pubs (apart from the nominated driver, of course!). Could that be a valid "challenge" rather than a cache?

Sounds like my kind of challenge

November 2, 2012

Wouldn't it be nice if Groundspeak could split into various regional sections under the Geocaching.com umbrella, but each part run by people local to the area and with the ability to amend certain guidelines to suit the culture of that part of the world! Then we might get somewhere with the notion that most pub names aren't the name of the business at all and mentioning that you turn left at the Dog and Duck is not some sort of inducement to buy something from them. Or even that a listing could be helpful to visitors from outside the area and actually suggest a couple of pubs where shelter and refreshment might be found. I think that any reviewer would spot the difference between that and "why not visit my pub whem in the area and get 10% off lunch if you mention this cache". Or are reviewers thought to be too stupid to be trusted?

UK Geocaching Wiki

And here

and here

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

UK Geocaching Wiki

Geocaching.com Help Center

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website

Edited November 2, 2012 by Graculus

1.1k · November 2, 2012

............so the Kings Arms is 2 (2 legs), ..............

You've been playing it wrong. If the pub has got 'Arms' in the name it's minus 2 points.

1.6k · November 2, 2012

This is something very similar that I'm solving in stages at the moment:

Ale Trail - A Taste of History

I'm sure it'll get a favourite point from me when I eventually stagger to the end.

Mark

That is very cool!! I wish I could do something similar to that around this area but I just don't have the time. I know something like that takes a HUGE amount of time to set things up.

Kudos to your efforts! I should search my area.... maybe there is one already (doubtful).

November 2, 2012

That is very cool!! I wish I could do something similar to that around this area but I just don't have the time. I know something like that takes a HUGE amount of time to set things up.
Kudos to your efforts! I should search my area.... maybe there is one already (doubtful).

Sorry, I can't take the credit. RichiCactus is the CO - I'm just trying to solve it in my lunchbreaks.

3.7k · November 2, 2012

UK Geocaching Wiki

And here

and here

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm...yes, but that's just basically extra restrictions that apply to the UK, on top of the American rules.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Happy Humphrey

"pub crawl" multi- would this be allowable?

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