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Delorme What Happened?


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The InReach, being a subscription service, is a revenue stream. A GPS is a one-time sale. So is software like StreetAtlas, XMap & Topo. Not everyone buys the latest & greatest release every year. They're a small company, and their business model has been changing rapidly over the past 4 years, away from their traditional products which were probably seeing a slowdown in sales and toward a subscription-based constant revenue stream.

 

I suspect the Map Library has become a victim of its own success, and then the smartphone boom. 3 years ago, it was great. It got too big and rather than expand capacity, they chose to start throttling downloads heavily. I lost interest due to the increased download time. Then I got a Droid, and it kind of became redundant.

 

I gave up entirely when it became clear that they had lost all interest in supporting their existing customers who didn't use Windows, after initially making some positive moves toward supporting MacOS. For 5 months, users of PN-40s with Macs running Lion couldn't even connect their devices to their computers. People kept claiming "Apple broke it, it's their fault" until finally a firmware update was released - because DeLorme's firmware wasn't handling the USB connections properly, and Lion required that devices adhere more strictly to the established standards. Cache Register has been broken on OS X for over a year - no new release to fix anything.

 

Now they're falling even farther behind on their old mainstays. IIRC Street Atlas 2012 was a flop, and the expected successor to TopoNA 9 is long overdue. The PN-30 was more or less abandoned within a year of release. Paper atlases? How many of those are they even selling?

 

Maybe they make so much money on their professional-grade products that they can treat the consumer market as a hobby and nothing more. I don't know.

 

When my PN dies, I'm not sure what I'll do. I almost certainly won't be buying DeLorme again, if they even have a product to buy. I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about Garmin, with all the reports of half-baked firmware releases I read here. Plus, I feel their products are overpriced & they're taking advantage of their position as the 800 pound Gorilla in this product space (OTOH, I love my ForeRunner 405). Magellan? Are there any other players in North America?

Edited by dakboy
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...Garmin...I feel their products are overpriced...

Hm? If we're talking specifically DeLorme v. Garmin, price check at REI shows Garmin eTrex 30 @ $280, DeLorme PN-60 @ $300. Is the price spread much different in Canada?

 

Those are the two most comparable models (small screens, buttons, barometer, compass, etc). It's much harder to compare what "overpriced" means in relation to Garmin devices with other feature sets than what DeLorme offers.

Edited by user13371
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Interesting; I just commented on a similar theme over on DeLorme's own forum...

...Delorme could be in trouble unless they really get their act together and decide just what their mission is in this market. I'd hate to see Delorme go out of business.

This would be a worry IF sales of handheld GPSRs in places like REI is (or ever was) really their "mission," their major profit center.

 

Look at their company history. Started in 1976 as a company that sold maps and have changed their focus a few times -- they only started selling handheld GPSRs with the PN-series in 2007, when Garmin and others were already well established. It seems unlikely to me that DeLorme ever had even a 1% market share even in the subcategory of "handheld GPSR intended for outdoor rugged use."

 

Now they're perhaps wisely moving on to something nobody else is really doing. Even though the inReach is a bit of a niche market, DeLorme ISN''T a huge company -- all they need to do is sell enough of these to make payroll and leave a little extra for growth.

 

--

Edited for two reasons

- To correct a bad link, and

- To clarify I was pointing to one of my own posts in DeLorme's forum

Edited by user13371
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Interesting; I just came across a similar theme over on DeLorme's own forum...

...Delorme could be in trouble unless they really get their act together and decide just what their mission is in this market. I'd hate to see Delorme go out of business.

This would be a worry IF sales of handheld GPSRs in places like REI is (or ever was) really their "mission," their major profit center.

 

Look at their company history. Started in 1976 as a company that sold maps and have changed their focus a few times -- they only started selling handheld GPSRs with the PN-series in 2007, when Garmin and others were already well established. It seems unlikely to me that DeLorme ever had even a 1% market share even in the subcategory of "handheld GPSR intended for outdoor rugged use."

 

Now they're perhaps wisely moving on to something nobody else is really doing. Even though the inReach is a bit of a niche market, DeLorme ISN''T a huge company -- all they need to do is sell enough of these to make payroll and leave a little extra for growth.

lee_rimar, we now know you're user13371. You posted the link to "edit my post" for that DeLorme post. The real link to the thread: http://forum.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?f=181&t=76005

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Dakboy - Fixed both. Thanks for pointing out the mangled link. And I should have made it clearer that I was cross-posting one of my own comments in a thread someone else over there started, the point being that the same "Wither DeLorme?" question is being pondered there as well as here.

 

-Lee

aka user13371

aka Portland Cyclist

aka lee_rimar

aka "I can't recall exactly how many screen names I've had in the past 11 years"

... but at least I use my real name, sometimes ...

Edited by user13371
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Here's the main problem with flitting from one product line to the next and leaving the previous one(s) in the dust, especially for a company as small as DeLorme:

 

One of these days, they're going to figure the market wrong, have a product be a complete and total disaster, and they'll be forced to fold. Or they'll be bought up by a larger player (or a holding company) just for the existing revenue streams and patents, then get dismantled.

 

You buy a Garmin GPS today, you can be reasonably sure that in 3 years, Garmin will still be around and still be making/supporting their GPS products. PN-30 owners were forgotten in less than 18 months. Has anything new & interesting come along for PN-60 owners since that product was released? Other than the InReach, that is - but it's clear that the priority pairing for InReach is Android & iOS, not DeLorme's own hardware.

 

When I got my PN-40, I was really impressed, so much so that I was looking forward to the purchase of a PN-80 or whatever the next-next-gen handheld was that DeLorme was going to release. It's clear now that no such device will ever come to fruition, and they've lost at least one customer as I'm not going to get on a future product knowing that they'll likely drop me very soon after.

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But they really don't "flit," at least it dosn't seem as much so to me as it does to you. The line of PN-20,40,60 over a period of 5 years seems forward steady progress, not fleeting. I just wish they'd fix that STUpid cable design. Maybe sometime around the time the PN-90 comes out they'll figure out how.

 

Even so, GPS hardware has never been their core business, that's just an accessory line to go with their original business. I'd venture to guess there's more shelf space at my local REI dedicated to DeLorme atlases than anyone else's -- well, maybe a toss-up with National Geographic, but still hangin in there. And Street Atlas, Topo, and XMap are all still sold and supported.

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But they really don't "flit," at least it dosn't seem as much so to me as it does to you. The line of PN-20,40,60 over a period of 5 years seems forward steady progress, not fleeting. I just wish they'd fix that STUpid cable design. Maybe sometime around the time the PN-90 comes out they'll figure out how.

The progression of the handheld GPSrs is normal and expected.

 

Getting into the handheld market and appearing to leave it within a 5 year span, that's flitting in & out.

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I'm guessing they saw themselves a uniquely poised to get into the handheld market a coulple of years ago, seeing that they are long-established in maps. A lot of factors may have blunted that jump. Like the downturn in the economy....advances in cell phones, etc.

 

My personal experience with thier products has been love/hate.

 

Absolutely love the Topo software. A pain to learn, but well worth the effort. If you hike or like to make custom maps of areas, like I do, then it is a gold mine if you want custom, printed maps.

 

Hate....decided to buy one of thier PN's. Bought a 20. Worked great for jiving with the Topo software, but found the unit easily corrupted with custom maps, WP and geocaching files. Required resets would wipe all saved data. Repeated calls to Delorme CS were answered with "We're working on that." or "I'm not aware of that problem...will look into it." Finally, before my warranty ran out, I figured that they couldn't/wouldn't fix the problem. On hikes, using the stock rechargeable battery was a disappointment. 3 1/2 to 4 hours use, max. Then good alkalines might get 6-7 hours. Just prior to this I'd reccomended that a friend buy a PN-40. It's battery use was even worse than my -20. I've never considered "upgrading" since. (I have to mention that the PN-40 was amazingly accurate, though.)

 

Above I mentioned smart phones. This probably has hit Garmin too. Geocaching is something most of the GPS makers needed court. I'd expect most folks who try it just run an app on an Android (or Iphone)while at the city park. No dedicated GPS needed at all for this type of caching. I'd think that an increasing share of caching is done this way. It is just too easy and cheap to not be having an impact.

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I have had a PN-40 for almost two years and have loved it. I did have problems last year with connectivity, and support sent me a shorter cable. No problems after that. Then, a couple of months ago my husband had to rebuild my computer basically. Since then, I have not been able to get my PN-40 to be recognized by my computer at all. I use to love Cache Register, but you can't even find it online now (we still had my old files, so we installed it, but it won't recognize the GPS). I hate to give up on it. I really like it. Any tricks anyone knows or has discovered for making the computer recognize the device?

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Topo 9.0 is now 2 1/2 years old.... In map years, that's 70 years old...

Topo 10 (and XMap 8) were both recently released.

 

But DeLorme has fumbled a bit on Geocaching support. Automated downloads in CacheRegister and Topo broke some time ago when GC.com changed their API and DeLorme didn't follow the update. Instead, their response for now is "just download pocket queries manually, and import them..." At least that's how I interpret this tech note.

 

Message repeats: Handheld GPS (and Geocaching) not as important to DeLorme -- their core business is still maps.

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I've relied on DeLorme Street Atlas USA for many years, for both navigation & Geocaching.. The latest I have is the 2011 Plus, and, I'll be honest, 2009 Plus has more options I wanted, and I still need 2006 to be able to use an old iPaq Pocket PC, but it swallows the maps made by the 2009 version.. (which, the 2011 version decided to remove from their capabilities list.. I've noticed the software is more sold online, than in stores. (Walmart, Staples, etc.. I was lucky to find the 2011 package at an Office Depot!) Their maps aren't all too accurate either.. It lists a state forest up the road from me as being part of a state forest on the other side of town, but the two aren't even connected in any way or form.....

It still has a road listed in one town, as crossing a river, but that same road was washed out long before I was even born! (washed out by a flood in 1955!) It still shows roads that are incomplete, yet they've been completed for close to 12 years!

 

Though, I can say the same for Garmin, Topo-200K, incomplete roads, roads that were closed years ago, yet, I have a copy of IBYCUS-USA, and OpenStreetMaps for the same area, which show the changes..

 

As someone said, they may've found their 'Cash-Cow' in subscriptions to the tracking radios.

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I have had a PN-40 for almost two years and have loved it. I did have problems last year with connectivity, and support sent me a shorter cable. No problems after that. Then, a couple of months ago my husband had to rebuild my computer basically. Since then, I have not been able to get my PN-40 to be recognized by my computer at all. I use to love Cache Register, but you can't even find it online now (we still had my old files, so we installed it, but it won't recognize the GPS). I hate to give up on it. I really like it. Any tricks anyone knows or has discovered for making the computer recognize the device?

 

Just a guess on my part, but you may not have reloaded all the factory files when the computer was rebuilt. You may have an incompatible driver for devices. Find you original disks, call PC support for your brand or check on line for the correct original drivers. Good Luck.

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Delorme still has a download button on their site for cache register, but it takes you here instead.

Well, that just goes to show you, it's always something,

if it's not one thing, it's another,

but it's always something.

 

What we have here is a failure to implement backward compatibility. (Hey, my Microsoft Office Pro 2002 works fine with Wndows 7, no problems. :) )

 

Well, in the fulness of time, I checked it out and my Cache Register 2, Windows, worked just fine this evening. Consequently, I assume that I am grandfathered in as a result of having installed it and used it, and not changing my password prior to geocaching.com imposing changes on users.

Edited by Team CowboyPapa
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A few years ago I strayed from buying Garmin GPSrs because I got fed up with having to buy the same mapping package again and again. I bought a DeLorme PN-20; returned it before 30 days were up because I could not manage to find any geocaches with it and because the maps had too many errors in my town. But it taught me that this company had integrity and I could safely try another unit once they fixed their problems. A year later I did that with the PN-40 and it was a great unit. A few months ago I too start to have problems with cables and power management and various other little things that I felt should have been fixed through firmware improvements. But then it became clear that the PN-40 would no longer be supported. I figure if they are not loyal to me, then why should I be loyal to them?

 

...Garmin...I feel their products are overpriced...

Hm? If we're talking specifically DeLorme v. Garmin, price check at REI shows Garmin eTrex 30 @ $280, DeLorme PN-60 @ $300. Is the price spread much different in Canada?

 

Those are the two most comparable models (small screens, buttons, barometer, compass, etc). It's much harder to compare what "overpriced" means in relation to Garmin devices with other feature sets than what DeLorme offers.

Regarding this I would point out that it is not a fair comparison to compare the eTrex with the DeLorme PN because the Delorme PN is sold as part of a mapping package (Topo); so a more even comparison is compare the Topo/PN package Versus eTrex (or 62) plus the Garmin Topo maps. When you do that, you will find that the DeLorme product is a much better price.

 

I recently bought a Garmin GPSr. I now need not buy the expensive Garmin maps again and again because the free maps are good enough for what I need. I was also motivated because my eyesight is getting worse and I was squinting too much with the tiny display of the PN. So I bought the Montana and have not regretted that decision. But clearly price was not my most important consideration.

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I have had a PN-40 for almost two years and have loved it. I did have problems last year with connectivity, and support sent me a shorter cable. No problems after that. Then, a couple of months ago my husband had to rebuild my computer basically. Since then, I have not been able to get my PN-40 to be recognized by my computer at all. I use to love Cache Register, but you can't even find it online now (we still had my old files, so we installed it, but it won't recognize the GPS). I hate to give up on it. I really like it. Any tricks anyone knows or has discovered for making the computer recognize the device?

 

Just a guess on my part, but you may not have reloaded all the factory files when the computer was rebuilt. You may have an incompatible driver for devices. Find you original disks, call PC support for your brand or check on line for the correct original drivers. Good Luck.

My suggestion would be to uninstall Topo and reinstall it. Then try to have it communicate with the PN. If you cannot get that to work, call DeLorme customer service. I believe that they have been pretty good in the past helping folks resolve technical issues. Also until my recent retirement of my PN-40 I occasionally visited the DeLorme forum and found the help there to be excellent.

 

Once you get Topo talking to the PN you can then be assure you are not having a hardware problem. Then just be sure Topo is not running when you want other software to talk to the PN.

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...it is not a fair comparison to compare the eTrex with the DeLorme PN because the Delorme PN is sold as part of a mapping package (Topo); so a more even comparison is compare the Topo/PN package Versus eTrex (or 62) plus the Garmin Topo maps. When you do that, you will find that the DeLorme product is a much better price.

 

I recently bought a Garmin GPSr. I now need not buy the expensive Garmin maps again and again because the free maps are good enough for what I need. ...

I think your second comment outweighs the first for a lot of users. The reality is that there are plenty of free maps that are good enough for most users and better than either DeLorme's OR Garmin's offerings. So when I compared pricing of eTrex-30 to PN-60, I was comfortable looking at the hardware only.

 

And for some users, the fact that Garmin devices have WIDER selection of maps and sources to choose from (free and not free) will be a greater incentive than the bundled maps you get from DeLorme.

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