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WHV714

Reporting of "Not Found" Benchmarks

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I found a benchmark that had been previously reported as "Not Found" by the US Power Squadron. What I found was only the 5/8" copper coated steel rod, none of the other references in the listing. I logged my find on the Geocaching.com page concerning this Benchmark. Does Geocaching.com forward this find to the NGS or do I have to file a report of some kind? (I'm an absolute new-by doing this but it is great fun!!) Thanks

 

Wes

WHV714 Team Roger

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I found a benchmark that had been previously reported as "Not Found" by the US Power Squadron. What I found was only the 5/8" copper coated steel rod, none of the other references in the listing. I logged my find on the Geocaching.com page concerning this Benchmark. Does Geocaching.com forward this find to the NGS or do I have to file a report of some kind? (I'm an absolute new-by doing this but it is great fun!!) Thanks

 

Wes

WHV714 Team Roger

 

Wes, can you provide the six digit PID (or a link) of the benchmark you are referring to.....so we can read the datasheet to see what was supposed to be there. It's possible that it is destroyed.....like if there was supposed to be a disk attached to the rod.

 

Glad to see you having a good time. You will become a pro in no time. Have you had time to check out the FAQ section below yet? It provides a lot of useful information for the beginning benchmarker.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/

 

It is extremely advisable that you gain a good understanding of the entire recovery process, benchmark types, and other things before submitting reports into the NGS. This knowledge can be obtained by reading a lot of the pinned topics (and others) in these forums, as well as asking questions...which you are doing. I wouldn't rush to submitting recoveries with the NGS. You cannot just edit information you submit to them, and you want to be correct in your submittals.

Edited by LSUFan

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Yes, this is listed on Geocaching.com in the Benchmark Section:

 

BL1182 (T 1149)

 

I logged the find and uploaded 2 photos. This was pretty hard to find, but the distances from the road and the R/R rail were pretty much right on. Yehaa!!!!

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WHV714,

 

Don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but a well written note explaining what you did and did not see would be a more meaningful GEOCACHE log entry when you do not find the actual mark.

 

ROD ONLY, DISK IS MISSING

 

BL1182_MARKER: DB = BENCH MARK DISK

BL1182_SETTING: 46 = COPPER-CLAD STEEL ROD W/O SLEEVE (10 FT.+)

BL1182_SP_SET: COPPER-CLAD STEEL ROD

BL1182_STAMPING: T 1149 1959

This exact stamping should appear on the disk unless there is a logical clerical error or possibly a later over-stamping (fairly recent thread on that subject in this forum).

 

WP ONLY

 

BL1999_MARKER: I = METAL ROD

BL1999_SETTING: 49 = STAINLESS STEEL ROD W/O SLEEVE (10 FT.+)

 

BL1999_SP_SET: STAINLESS STEEL ROD

BL1999_STAMPING: H 1510 1987

 

In this case the stamping is on the cover rim, but you must see the rod to claim a found in Geocache.

 

Proper terminology for reports to the NGS is 'recovery'. Below is a portion of the NGS Mark Recovery Entry form:

 

" --------

Select condition of mark:

Good

Not recovered, not found

Poor, disturbed, mutilated, requires maintenance

 

For Destroyed condition, see Note below

 

Note: For destroyed marks do one of the following:

 

1) If you have found the actual marker separated from its setting, you can report the point as destroyed. To do so please send the report on the destroyed mark as an email to Deb Brown ---"

 

Just DSWorld pegged your logged marks on Google Earth and was reminded of departing on leave from the Naval Air Station at Kingsville, Texas at midnight and 800 miles and 16-18 hours later getting into New Mexico at Texline with just another 900 miles to be home in Montana. MEL

Edited by kayakbird

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WHV714,

 

Don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but a well written note explaining what you did and did not see would be a more meaningful GEOCACHE log entry when you do not find the actual mark.

 

ROD ONLY, DISK IS MISSING

 

BL1182_MARKER: DB = BENCH MARK DISK

BL1182_SETTING: 46 = COPPER-CLAD STEEL ROD W/O SLEEVE (10 FT.+)

BL1182_SP_SET: COPPER-CLAD STEEL ROD

BL1182_STAMPING: T 1149 1959

This exact stamping should appear on the disk unless there is a logical clerical error or possibly a later over-stamping (fairly recent thread on that subject in this forum).

 

 

Wes, Mike is correct. You didn't actually find the benchmark above, which would have been a disk, that had T 1149 1959 stamped on it. What you most likely found was the rod that the disk "used" to be attached to. Since you didn't find the disk, you didn't find the mark. All the exact measurements were taken to a point on the disk (not the rod).....so what you found wouldn't be able to be used by a professional to the accuracies stated.

 

The proper log/report for this one would be a "not found", just like the Power Squadron reported it. They called it correct.

 

Your first reaction is to log it as a "destroyed" since the disk is missing and can no longer be used to the published accuracies. The NGS (and all of us) like to use the destroyed status sparingly, and with a 100% certainty. That's why the NGS states that they want you to have the disk (or other) basically in your hand, to prove that you found the mark and it is separated from it's setting (therefore not able to be used for it's intended published accuracies). If you have the disk (or pieces of it that can be identified with 100% certainty)in your hand, then there is no doubt that it is destroyed. Without the disk, there could be an outside chance you didn't find the correct mark, and it does exist.

 

This uncertainty can exist because of the published geographical coordinates. If they are scaled coordinates, this is where someone took a topographical map and guesstimated where the benchmark is located and put those coordinates on the datasheet. These guestimates can be off by 600 feet or more. That's why it is important to use the description and make sure the measurements are accurate from the roads, trees, buildings, listed on the datasheets. Also, since you could possibly be 600 feet away from where the benchmark is actually located, the NGS wants to be 100% sure, you located the benchmark you are looking for (and not possibly another one placed by a different agency for some reason).

 

Here are some examples of marks I reported as destroyed:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=BW1564

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=CP1645

 

That is part of the reason that if you don't find the actual benchmark listed (and it says what it is supposed to on the mark), then you didn't find the mark, or can say for 100% accuracy that is is destroyed. If there is a 0.00001% chance that the benchmark could be there, then you need to log it as "not found".

 

Even when marks are set into roadways, then paved over, the mark is still there, just covered over. If someone with the proper authority wanted to, they could actually drill down and use the mark.....although highly unlikely, it's still not considered a destroyed mark. You would log it as a "not found" with a detailed explanation of what you found on site (ie road was repaved and mark assumed buried underneath the pavement)

 

So, my recommendation for the mark you found, would be to log it as a "not found" and post in the log that you "assume" it could be destroyed due to finding the rod without a disk attached.

 

Using the word "assume" gives you leeway. :D

 

It is just as important to log marks as "not found" and when certain, "destroyed"....as it is to log a mark as "found". The professionals who use these marks and therefore have a use for our recovery reports, need this correct information. They certainly don't need to waste their valuable time searching for a mark in the field that is not there, but they think it is because of an erroneous report sent in by a geocacher or other person.

 

It's also important to see if a benchmark is there, if someone like the Power Squadron reported it as a "not found" previously....so you can correct the latest status on the mark too. We have a friendly competition going, to see if we can find marks the professionals couldn't.

 

Here is one of my personal favorites, where I was able to find one that the USGS and Power Squadron both reported as "not found". I also submitted the pics and updated Handheld 2 coordinates, whereas anybody who needs to use this mark should be able to locate it in short order.

 

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=CQ0666

Edited by LSUFan

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WHV714,

 

To expand this subject a tiny bit more - frequently you will find a cleanly sheared off top section of a concrete post setting with the disk intact. I will Geo LOG / NGS RECOVER these as POOR, (disturbed, mutilated, requires maintenance); with the rational that the base can be located, the top put in place and still have a useable mark.

 

This is more likely to be possible with a BENCHMARK (vertical elevation point) that may not need to be used at the 0.001 ft accuracy level. This one in Arizona looks to have been repaired at some time.

 

FIXED

 

85450401-4b00-48ca-be7e-30a2ea5d670e.jpg

 

It has 'adjusted' accuracy for both the horizontal and vertical.

 

DA0339* NAD 83(1992) POSITION- 32 15 26.07350(N) 112 44 03.44816(W) ADJUSTED

DA0339* NAVD 88 ORTHO HEIGHT - 549.374 (meters) 1802.40 (feet) ADJUSTED

 

And there is an example of a rather famous point (Triangulation Station, I think) back east somewhere that has been glued back together.

 

Oddities like this makes Bench Mark hunting a very intriguing activity for me. MEL

Edited by kayakbird

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Reminds me of one square concrete mark we found once. You could see it from the road, sticking up above the ground about 6-inches or so. So we proceeded to get some reference measurements. I took the end of the tape to the c/l of the highway while the intern went to the mark, he knelt down and was going to use the mark to pull the tape tight (was very windy day and cloth tape was wipping around) and higher than road. As he leaned on the mark to brace himself, it tipped over. The intern was new to the job and this was the first BM he had ever seen. I asked him what he did and he said, I broke it and he had this look of worry on his face. I had just got done explaining the importance of these marks to our highway surveys. Someone had placed it back on top of the broken piece and packed the dirt around it. Apparently some time (probably years) has passed because the ground had not given any indication of any recent disturbance. There was a house nearby (100+ ft) and the mark was possibly hit in the winter while plowing his drive.

 

The post is still out behind my garage.....

Edited by Z15

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