Too Close to Unknown Cache

[+Knights-Templar]

Hi,

I recently listed a multi cache for review. I spent a lot of time checking for the right locations to place them especially as the first cache has a puzzle that could take a bit of time so needs to be out of muggle view.

 

The co-ordinates of the second stage are built into the puzzle at stage 1 and I made sure I was not near any other caches before submitting the cache for review.

 

It has now come back saying I am too close to an unknown cache and I have to move my caches.

 

This means I now need to find new locations and then change the puzzle at stage one so it picks up the new co-ordinates at stage two. The problem is these new locations could still be too close to unknown caches in the area and I would need to start all over again.

 

Does this mean I need to solve all unknown caches in the area before listing any further caches to be sure I don't have to start all over again?

[+CanadianRockies]

Does this mean I need to solve all unknown caches in the area before listing any further caches to be sure I don't have to start all over again?

Most (if not all) Volunteer Reviews will do a "location check" if you ask them. If you send them coordinates, they will check to see if they are too close to existing caches (including puzzle caches and multi-caches) or too close to recently placed (but currently unpublished) caches.

 

Send your reviewer an email asking if they are willing to do this and how they would like you to send the coordinates. Some prefer coordinates by email. Others prefer that you submit a partially completed cache listing page with a reviewer note requesting a location check.

[+Too Tall John]

Yes, solve all the puzzles within 2 miles, or send a note to your reviewer with a set of coords you want to use before you do all the legwork, ask them if it's a clear spot.

 

You aren't in NH, are you? If so, just send the note, the Snoopy Series is almost all outside the 2 mile range usually adhered to for puzzle caches. Way outside.

[+Straight-Cache-Homey]

You aren't in NH, are you? If so, just send the note, the Snoopy Series is almost all outside the 2 mile range usually adhered to for puzzle caches. Way outside.

Awesome.

[+Knights-Templar]

Not in NH Tall John but that Snoopy series looks great.

 

Pretty new to Geocaching and have been trying to solve the local puzzle caches for a while now but with no luck as yet. Feeling a bit stupid at lack of success lol.

 

Think will be a while before I list any more caches but will email reviewer with co-ords before I do so as it is a bit frustrating putting all that work in, then having to start again.

[+JustinThompson]

Ive recently had the same problem and asked thhe reviewer the same question. I also asked why unknown caches get the same radius even though a lot of times it seems like the cache isnt near those coords but now that area is basically a dead zone and then another zone wherever the final cache is located. I asked if it was incase people might accidently stumble upon other caches but I pointed out that from one in question youd have to accidently cross a parking lot walk between 2 buildings cross another parking lot cross 4 lanes of busy traffic plus a turning lane cross another parking lot into a field and up a tree. maybe there should be away to have the reviewer pass caches that make sence Ithink within maybe 50ft is too closs but everything being.1 mile apart is a little stupid. How do you submit to have rules looked at and how would you get one changed a bit not get rid of but loosen up a bit otherwise i feel like I need to do every kind of cache before I can hide anything just in case Im near a stage thats not marked on anyones map

[+The A-Team]

Ive recently had the same problem and asked thhe reviewer the same question. I also asked why unknown caches get the same radius even though a lot of times it seems like the cache isnt near those coords but now that area is basically a dead zone and then another zone wherever the final cache is located. I asked if it was incase people might accidently stumble upon other caches but I pointed out that from one in question youd have to accidently cross a parking lot walk between 2 buildings cross another parking lot cross 4 lanes of busy traffic plus a turning lane cross another parking lot into a field and up a tree. maybe there should be away to have the reviewer pass caches that make sence Ithink within maybe 50ft is too closs but everything being.1 mile apart is a little stupid. How do you submit to have rules looked at and how would you get one changed a bit not get rid of but loosen up a bit otherwise i feel like I need to do every kind of cache before I can hide anything just in case Im near a stage thats not marked on anyones map

Many others before you have wanted to reduce the proximity guideline distance, but there really isn't a good reason to. If there isn't enough room to squeeze a cache in, that area probably already has enough caches anyway. Look for somewhere that doesn't already have some.

 

As for "a stage thats not marked on anyones map", they are marked on a map. The one the reviewers can see. If you contact them with a proposed spot, they can tell you if it's too close to a stage of a multi or a final. BTW, the posted coordinates of a puzzle only apply if there's something hidden there. If there's just a reference point there, or they're bogus coordinates, the proximity guideline doesn't apply and you can place something within 528 feet/161 metres of that spot.

[+niraD]

See also this Help Center article:

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=199

[oliantoine]

It might be a solution if reviewer could advise you about the offset you must apply to your cache, telling you e.g. "move your cache of at least x feet/miles in y° to z° direction", without giving you any hint on the potential unknown cache location.

[+Knights-Templar]

Looks like it's another couple of trips up the Hill for me.

 

One to recover the caches I have placed and to try and find new locations higher up the hill.

 

Then email these to the reviewer, hoping they are far enough away from the unknown cache.

 

Then up the hill again to place them.

 

At least it is a lesson learnt, I will get the co-ords and check with reviewer before placing the physical caches and adding the stage co-ords into any of the puzzles.

[+lamoracke]

It might be a solution if reviewer could advise you about the offset you must apply to your cache, telling you e.g. "move your cache of at least x feet/miles in y° to z° direction", without giving you any hint on the potential unknown cache location.

 

course, if I was told to move a cache 115 feet AND an angle, I bet I could find that puzzle cache within a few minutes as I would know its possibly 413 feet away and with the angle, that would easy.

[+PSJKids]

I was having this issue by not knowing where the premiums were in my area but I noticed that when you go view your profile and then do a "Search for geocaches near your home location" and then clip on the "Map This Location" and pan over to the area you area looking to place a new cache and then slowly zoom OUT, you will see the Premiums pop up. You cannot get a precise location for them but it will give you an idea if there just happens to be a premium in the area of the cache you want to place.

 

I was doing this and managed to get 2 out before having a saturation issue, this was caused by a mystery cache though but I did have one other that was within something like 20' of a premium so I had to go move it but unfortunately it had already been muggled but someone who must have seen me place it there. I eventually just gave up and paid the $30 Premium fees and low and behold I have another 6 premium caches within like 6 miles of my house. The kids are gonna be thrilled when i tell them about it. They love caching.

[+CanadianRockies]

I was having this issue by not knowing where the premiums were in my area but I noticed that when you go view your profile and then do a "Search for geocaches near your home location" and then clip on the "Map This Location" and pan over to the area you area looking to place a new cache and then slowly zoom OUT, you will see the Premiums pop up. You cannot get a precise location for them but it will give you an idea if there just happens to be a premium in the area of the cache you want to place.

If you go to the Hide and Seek page and insert a set of coordinates, then the list you get back will indicate if any known caches (including premium-member caches) are within 528 feet of your specified coordinates. Of course, it still won't tell you where multi-stages and puzzle finals are located.

[+Don_J]

 

Does this mean I need to solve all unknown caches in the area before listing any further caches to be sure I don't have to start all over again?

 

That seems to be the only way to be sure if a spot is safe to hide a cache. I have a community close to me that is saturated by unknown caches, all by the same cacher. Since I have no hope of solving even 10% of them, I simply don't hide caches in that area. It's not worth the frustration. Luckily, there is a lot of territory outside of that area for me to play with. I have seen areas on the map that were 10 times as bad. I wouldn't mind seeing the proximity between individual puzzle finals increased so as to leave more gaps for us mere mortals to hide regular caches in.

[+Knights-Templar]

I went up the hill last night and retrieved my caches.

 

I then went quite a bit further up the hill, search for good quiet spots to place the caches where the puzzles could be solved without muggle attention.

 

Re-submitted my cache today and just got a reply stating one of the stages is still 450 feet away from an unknown cache...ahhhhh.

 

The point of me placing the caches was to give something back to the caching community but I am considering just pulling them.

 

If I don't know where the unknown cache is, how many trips up the hill do I need to make before I am out of range.

[+rosebud55112]

It might be a solution if reviewer could advise you about the offset you must apply to your cache, telling you e.g. "move your cache of at least x feet/miles in y° to z° direction", without giving you any hint on the potential unknown cache location.

 

course, if I was told to move a cache 115 feet AND an angle, I bet I could find that puzzle cache within a few minutes as I would know its possibly 413 feet away and with the angle, that would easy.

 

Not necessarily. First off, as you point out, it would be foolish in the reviewer gave the absolute minimum distance and direction, as your method would give up the location of a single unknown cache in an otherwise empty area. So presumedly they would go at some angle to the line between the final GZ and your proposed GZ.

 

Also consider the situation if there are multiple Unknowns or Multicache finals nearby. Imagine two Unks roughly .18 miles way from each other. Their 'dead zones' would overlap in a sort of football-shaped area. If you proposed GZ were in that overlap, then the nearest available location would be at an angle roughly perpendicular to the line connecting those two Unknown caches, so your attempt to brute force a solution would have you searching more than .10 miles from either of those two caches. The situation becomes more complex as you add even more nearby caches, whether you know the real locations or not.

[+JustinThompson]

the only tip my reviewer gave me was to do the (name of multi/unknown) puzzle then I would know where that stage is and I could better plan that hide. it just seems like a pain in the butt I dont think the extra stages should have to be 528 feet from other caches maybe do like 100 feet. if your coords are making you look a hundred feet away and accidently stumble upon another cache those coords were way off

[+niraD]

if your coords are making you look a hundred feet away and accidently stumble upon another cache those coords were way off

Note that the goal of the saturation guideline is not to eliminate confusion between nearby cache stages. The goal of the saturation guideline is to encourage cache owners to seek new locations for caches rather than hiding more caches in areas that already have them, and to limit the number of caches in a given area.

[+Team OPJim]

I went up the hill last night and retrieved my caches.

 

I then went quite a bit further up the hill, search for good quiet spots to place the caches where the puzzles could be solved without muggle attention.

 

Re-submitted my cache today and just got a reply stating one of the stages is still 450 feet away from an unknown cache...ahhhhh.

 

The point of me placing the caches was to give something back to the caching community but I am considering just pulling them.

 

If I don't know where the unknown cache is, how many trips up the hill do I need to make before I am out of range.

I understand your frustration. I agree that if it isn't apparent that there is a stage in a location, how can you be held responsible for placing a cache close to it? The argument "to prevent saturation" doesn't hold water because it isn't readily apparent that the cache is there unless you have solved them. I'm one of those people who prefers to be out in the field finding or placing caches, rather than sitting at the computer trying to solve them.

 

Having said that, the best plan is to develop a good relationship with your reviewer so he/she will help you with this. I have done so and this makes it much easier. Don't give up on your plan: I had a cache take 9 months to get approval on, but the comments I've had about it from the finders made all the effort worthwhile.

 

I really do like the suggestion someone made to increase the saturation requirement for puzzle caches so they don't exclude placing traditional caches in good locations. It is really frustrating to have a puzzle or challenge cache that I will never be able to solve or qualify for get placed in an area that is particularly scenic (of course, somebody may think that about a few of mine ).

[+Team OPJim]

On another note. I had a multicache where I placed the final on a hilltop. Previously there had been a cache on that hilltop, less than 528 feet from my location, which was muggled and archived. One day, the reviewer unarchives the other cache at the owner's request. I have never understood why this was done.

[+ngrrfan]

On another note. I had a multicache where I placed the final on a hilltop. Previously there had been a cache on that hilltop, less than 528 feet from my location, which was muggled and archived. One day, the reviewer unarchives the other cache at the owner's request. I have never understood why this was done.

If it was my cache on that hill, I'd contact the reviewer and tell him/her that the unarchived cache is too close to an existing cache (mine) and needs to be removed. Reviewers do make occasional mistakes.

[+Team OPJim]

On another note. I had a multicache where I placed the final on a hilltop. Previously there had been a cache on that hilltop, less than 528 feet from my location, which was muggled and archived. One day, the reviewer unarchives the other cache at the owner's request. I have never understood why this was done.

If it was my cache on that hill, I'd contact the reviewer and tell him/her that the unarchived cache is too close to an existing cache (mine) and needs to be removed. Reviewers do make occasional mistakes.

I considered that. The problem is that I live in a small town, so I actually know the other CO. I decided the best plan was to remove my final: actually changed it to a one stage (back when you could still do this on your own) and moved on. Still, whenever I see a thread about a cache being denied because it is too close to another cache that is unknown (because it is multi or mystery) it really rankles me for the CO who didn't know it was there, but then has to go back to remove the cache and reposition it.

[+Harry Dolphin]

On another note. I had a multicache where I placed the final on a hilltop. Previously there had been a cache on that hilltop, less than 528 feet from my location, which was muggled and archived. One day, the reviewer unarchives the other cache at the owner's request. I have never understood why this was done.

If it was my cache on that hill, I'd contact the reviewer and tell him/her that the unarchived cache is too close to an existing cache (mine) and needs to be removed. Reviewers do make occasional mistakes.

I considered that. The problem is that I live in a small town, so I actually know the other CO. I decided the best plan was to remove my final: actually changed it to a one stage (back when you could still do this on your own) and moved on. Still, whenever I see a thread about a cache being denied because it is too close to another cache that is unknown (because it is multi or mystery) it really rankles me for the CO who didn't know it was there, but then has to go back to remove the cache and reposition it.

 

Ping!

I have been known to hide some rather obtuse mystery caches. During my 'grumpy dolphin' stage. (When the economy was bad, we were laid off one day a week. Well, *I* was grumpy! That led to a series of fifty-two 'Grumpy Dolphin' caches.) One that I hid in August 2009 has had three finds since then.

Got a find today! Fourth in three years! They hid a cache that was rejected for being witn 580 feet of my cache. So they brute forced it! Go for it! Probably the funniest log that I've ever had on one of my caches!

So, there are ways to resolve such problems!

[+DanOCan]

I understand this frustration of having to go back and revisit the location to deal with saturation issues. Keep in mind though -- if repeated trips to the cache location are too inconvenient for you then it might not be a good place to hide a cache as maintenance issues will crop up from time to time and require the same sort of effort.

[+Don_J]

I understand this frustration of having to go back and revisit the location to deal with saturation issues. Keep in mind though -- if repeated trips to the cache location are too inconvenient for you then it might not be a good place to hide a cache as maintenance issues will crop up from time to time and require the same sort of effort.

 

Your comparing an occasional maintenance visit to the frustration of having to visit 4 or 5 times in a single week to get around an unknown point on the Earth.

 

Why would assume that because someone gets frustrated trying to find a spot that is clear of hidden waypoints, that they would not meet their obligation to maintain their cache?

[+chillypenguin]

You could also try working with the CO of the puzzle cache. In a similar situation as CO, I would assist another cacher in placing a new cache.