Terrain rating adjustments over time

[+Mike & Jess]

I had revisited one of my favorite caches this past weekend which has a 5/5 rating. Loved the location and the travels to it.

Since my last visit (2010), the terrain has gotten a lot easier. There is little to no bushwhacking now and it's pretty much all bike and hike via land.

 

Another example for this would be a cache I had (archived now) that was an easy hike along a snowmobile trail during the winter, but a bushwhack and swamp forge during the summer. Winter rating... maybe a 2.5, summer... maybe 3.5-4

 

I'm not looking to pick on this particular cache, but it did make me wonder if anyone adjusts their terrain rating as the landscape around the cache changes.

For mine, I was going to adjust the rating be never did as it would be a pain and incorrect if I forgot to adjust from winter to summer rating. For other caches that are getting progressively easier, would you adjust the terrain, or set it and forget it?

 

Again, not picking on specific caches, just giving examples where I could see terrains being adjusted.

[+SwineFlew]

My opinion about changing rating is dont change it(if it got a really high D). It will mess up people's fizzy chart. Some people work really hard to get some of those harder caches for years. It might be easy to you but very difficult for them. So keep that in mind.

 

I know few caches here thats really rated high, but if you go out there in the winter, its alot easier. The rating is base on the hardest time of the year.

Edited September 10, 2012 by SwineFlew

[+Team Dennis]

If the terrain rating has permanently changed then yes, it would be a good idea to change your rating. **HOWEVER** it might screw up someone's stats and cause them great emotional trauma. Especially with a 5/5.

 

I have a cache that is rated at a 3.5D/4T but right now it is closer to a 2T but it has been up as high as 4.5T...maybe even 5T when it was submerged in the spring of 2011. It is along a river that has a bit of change throughout the year. I keep it at 3.5/4 all year as I don't feel like constantly updating it.

[+Snoogans]

I have a bunch of caches in the Eastern Sierra. They are all over rated in the summer, but adequately to maybe a little under rated in the winter. Most of the hits come in summer though.

 

I considered adjusting for seasons, but didn't in favor of keeping the higher rating to give pause to possibly underprepared willy nilly cachers passing through the area.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

My opinion about changing rating is dont change it(if it got a really high D). It will mess up people's fizzy chart. Some people work really hard to get some of those harder caches for years. It might be easy to you but very difficult for them. So keep that in mind.

 

If the terrain changes significantly and permanently (for better or worse), change it. I wouldn't (and don't) worry about anyone else's side games - that's not my concern.

 

If it's a seasonal thing, I would rate it for the season most people will hunt it, with a note on the listing that the D/T will change in the other seasons (due to snow, no trail, flooding, etc).

[+Roman!]

I recently had a CO change his D/T rating on a cache that affected by D/T grid as his was the only one of that combo I had done. Further more I recently logged a challenge cache that required you have completed your grid which due to the change I had now not done even though I was done when I logged the challenge cache.

 

I did post a polite note and the CO changed it back to the original rating so all is good but bear in mind, especially when thinking about changing one of the more difficult D/T combos that you may have a very negative impact on a previous finder.

[+hikerT]

I think the rating should only change if it's a puzzle, and the rating changed early on based on how easy/difficult cachers found it to be. If you have to change the T rating of a cache, I'd prefer an edit in the listing as to the change which will not affect previous finders.

 

On the other hand, I use GSAK, so any odd/difficult combo caches I have found get locked in GSAK. Then if a rating gets changed and a CO disputes my proof for a challenge cache I can show them what the rating was when I found it.

[+T.D.M.22]

Double post

Edited September 10, 2012 by T.D.M.22

[+T.D.M.22]

I will change the rating in the first week or so. Keep in mind, some caches I may have driven by twice a day every day for the past 8 years, and have taken time to scope it out and find the easiest way in, while a cacher may be traveling through town just stop close to the cache. Shorter distance but higher terrain. Same with the D rating. I know where the cache is so it's not as hard for me.I guess I'm trying to say is it's a matter of opinion. Usually I'll raise them if one or two experienced cachers comment on it, but I'll never lower them.

[+DanOCan]

I believe rating a cache appropriately is more important than worrying about someone's challenge or statistics.

I wouldn't adjust for seasonal variations, but if the terrain changed permanently I certainly would alter it without a second thought.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I adjust early-on. I didn't anticipate the difficulty of a couple of HIPS stages on one and my son didn't properly anticipate the water level of a river during the rainy season. Beyond that, I would adjust the hide to match the original D&T if GZ conditions changed (stick it in a tree if the new paved path turned my 3T into a 1.5).

[+briansnat]

I've changed difficulty frequently on my caches as the finds and DNFs come in. I just upped the difficulty on a cache that has been out 6 years. Looking at the logs I realized that despite my 1.5 difficulty rating it was generating about 1 DNF for every 6 finds (and who knows how many unlogged DNFs). That is not a 1.5. Now it's a 2.5

 

I don't adjust terrain nearly as much, but I found it necessary to do in a few cases. One was when I placed a cache that was a difficult bushwack and a couple years later a hiking trail was cut by the park right to the cache. The trail actually passes right over the cache. It was a legit 4 star bushwack, but with the trail leading right to it, no way I could still justify that 4 star rating so it's been lowered.

 

Sure it may screw up someone's Fizzy chart, but too bad. I think it's more important that the D/T ratings are correct for the benefit of most cachers.

[+nypackman]

If the difficulty or terrain rating changes significantly, especially on the higher rated caches, it might make sense to archive the cache and republish it as a new cache. Doing that would maintain the stats for previous finders and the cache would still be available for future finders at the appropriate ratings. Of course previous finders could log a second find because it's a new listing. The description could reference the old cache and say that it's updated due to new conditions. Just a thought.

[+Mike & Jess]

I believe rating a cache appropriately is more important than worrying about someone's challenge or statistics.

I wouldn't adjust for seasonal variations, but if the terrain changed permanently I certainly would alter it without a second thought.

 

Ignoring my seasonal variation example, I agree with you. Grids, challenges and/or other side games should not have any impact of reflecting the true rating of the cache. That being said, most of us up here cache to cache, not to fill a grid or challenge.

 

For the cache I revisited this past weekend, I do think it should remain a 5/5 even though it is not a 5 terrain anymore in my opinion. One method of reaching the cache (by land) has gone from ~4km of pure all out bushwhacking to a fairly nice cut trail (no more blazing trail or wet feet). My first visit took 6.5 to 7 hours to bike and bushwhack to base camp (another 3.75km to the cache). This past weekend, 3.5 hours, more gear and not nearly in the shape I was in back in 2010.

 

That being said, I would not want a city cacher to mistake or under estimate the risk of this trip as it's out of cell coverage, ~80km of logging road, and ~24km by bike and hiking (one way). Although the terrain difficulty is not nearly as bad, it still is a long ways away from any help.

[+bflentje]

If the terrain changes significantly and permanently (for better or worse), change it. I wouldn't (and don't) worry about anyone else's side games - that's not my concern.

 

+10000

 

Ruining some poor saps fizzy challenge is the LAST thing you should consider. Your cache listing should best represent the actual situation as possible. Period.

 

- coming from someone who hides many caches AND completes challenges.

[+SwineFlew]

I've changed difficulty frequently on my caches as the finds and DNFs come in. I just upped the difficulty on a cache that has been out 6 years. Looking at the logs I realized that despite my 1.5 difficulty rating it was generating about 1 DNF for every 6 finds (and who knows how many unlogged DNFs). That is not a 1.5. Now it's a 2.5

 

I don't adjust terrain nearly as much, but I found it necessary to do in a few cases. One was when I placed a cache that was a difficult bushwack and a couple years later a hiking trail was cut by the park right to the cache. The trail actually passes right over the cache. It was a legit 4 star bushwack, but with the trail leading right to it, no way I could still justify that 4 star rating so it's been lowered.

 

Sure it may screw up someone's Fizzy chart, but too bad. I think it's more important that the D/T ratings are correct for the benefit of most cachers.

 

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

My opinion, if the experiences of getting to the cache changes, its time to start up a new cache there and archived the other one.

 

Edit to add...I think its ok to change the rating within 3 months of the published date but after that, dont change the rating on those high rated caches. Just archive them and start a new one.

Edited September 11, 2012 by SwineFlew

[+Dame Deco]

Don't mess up folks stats who did the cache in good faith years ago. If it's changed that much, archive the old one and post a new cache in the same spot.

[BoredRoom]

This is why, if possible, there should be a feature where the D/T rating is encoded into the log entry at the time it is entered.

[+SwineFlew]

Don't mess up folks stats who did the cache in good faith years ago. If it's changed that much, archive the old one and post a new cache in the same spot.

Amen!!!!

[+SwineFlew]

This is why, if possible, there should be a feature where the D/T rating is encoded into the log entry at the time it is entered.

That will lead to abuse. I wont be in favor of that.

[+bflentje]

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

I just changed the ratings on my 10 oldest caches and you can't do a thing about it.

[+Dame Deco]

What I can't do a thing about is a person who enjoys doing something like that and posting about it just because they can. So I don't try--I just make friends with other folks.

[+SwineFlew]

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

I just changed the ratings on my 10 oldest caches and you can't do a thing about it.

Why change it many years down the road? If the experiences of getting to the cache change and got really easy, it isnt the same cache anymore and need to been archived. Post a new cache there. The local love it when there is new caches popping up more often.

 

You draw more flies with honey then vinegar.

 

I am a fan of keeping the caches true to the rating but I feel if the rating change that much, it isnt the same cache anymore and time to post a new cache there.

Edited September 11, 2012 by SwineFlew

[BoredRoom]

This is why, if possible, there should be a feature where the D/T rating is encoded into the log entry at the time it is entered.

That will lead to abuse. I wont be in favor of that.

 

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

I just changed the ratings on my 10 oldest caches and you can't do a thing about it.

 

Which abuse is worse I wonder?

[+bflentje]

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

I just changed the ratings on my 10 oldest caches and you can't do a thing about it.

Why change it many years down the road? If the experiences of getting to the cache change and got really easy, it isnt the same cache anymore and need to been archived. Post a new cache there. The local love it when there is new caches popping up more often.

 

You draw more flies with honey then vinegar.

 

I am a fan of keeping the caches true to the rating but I feel if the rating change that much, it isnt the same cache anymore and time to post a new cache there.

 

it was a joke.

 

I keep hearing over and over, "if it changed that much". Wouldn't ANY change affect your fizzy? Even a half star adjustment? The "if it changed that much" argument is lame, sorry.

[+SwineFlew]

What I can't do a thing about is a person who enjoys doing something like that and posting about it just because they can. So I don't try--I just make friends with other folks.

 

Same here...I treat my finders as customers and not like door mats. Yes, I feel too many CO threat their finders like door mats. :blink:

[+SwineFlew]

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

I just changed the ratings on my 10 oldest caches and you can't do a thing about it.

Why change it many years down the road? If the experiences of getting to the cache change and got really easy, it isnt the same cache anymore and need to been archived. Post a new cache there. The local love it when there is new caches popping up more often.

 

You draw more flies with honey then vinegar.

 

I am a fan of keeping the caches true to the rating but I feel if the rating change that much, it isnt the same cache anymore and time to post a new cache there.

 

it was a joke.

 

I keep hearing over and over, "if it changed that much". Wouldn't ANY change affect your fizzy? Even a half star adjustment? The "if it changed that much" argument is lame, sorry.

 

I am talking about those rare combos rating. There are a few thats pretty rare (depend on where you live) and some people really put time and money and equipments in finding those rare combos.

[+bflentje]

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

I just changed the ratings on my 10 oldest caches and you can't do a thing about it.

Why change it many years down the road? If the experiences of getting to the cache change and got really easy, it isnt the same cache anymore and need to been archived. Post a new cache there. The local love it when there is new caches popping up more often.

 

You draw more flies with honey then vinegar.

 

I am a fan of keeping the caches true to the rating but I feel if the rating change that much, it isnt the same cache anymore and time to post a new cache there.

 

it was a joke.

 

I keep hearing over and over, "if it changed that much". Wouldn't ANY change affect your fizzy? Even a half star adjustment? The "if it changed that much" argument is lame, sorry.

 

I am talking about those rare combos rating. There are a few thats pretty rare (depend on where you live) and some people really put time and money and equipments in finding those rare combos.

 

Rare or not, a fizzy should still be the LAST consideration. A cache listing should be accurate.

 

The comments about treating your finders like doormats is nothing more than rhetoric. Just because I wouldn't hesitate to change my cache ratings does not mean I treat my finders like doormats. An inaccurate listing treats the finders who've yet to find your cache like a doormat, in my opinion.

[+Dame Deco]

No--a fizzy should not be the last consideration if you are talking about people with finds a year of more old. If the terrain changes enough to change the rating, just archive the old cache and make a new one.

[+bflentje]

No--a fizzy should not be the last consideration if you are talking about people with finds a year of more old. If the terrain changes enough to change the rating, just archive the old cache and make a new one.

 

A half star is enough to affect a fizzy and not enough to archive. And yes, it should be the last consideration. Your stats mean nothing to me.

[+SwineFlew]

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

I just changed the ratings on my 10 oldest caches and you can't do a thing about it.

Why change it many years down the road? If the experiences of getting to the cache change and got really easy, it isnt the same cache anymore and need to been archived. Post a new cache there. The local love it when there is new caches popping up more often.

 

You draw more flies with honey then vinegar.

 

I am a fan of keeping the caches true to the rating but I feel if the rating change that much, it isnt the same cache anymore and time to post a new cache there.

 

it was a joke.

 

I keep hearing over and over, "if it changed that much". Wouldn't ANY change affect your fizzy? Even a half star adjustment? The "if it changed that much" argument is lame, sorry.

 

I am talking about those rare combos rating. There are a few thats pretty rare (depend on where you live) and some people really put time and money and equipments in finding those rare combos.

 

Rare or not, a fizzy should still be the LAST consideration. A cache listing should be accurate.

 

The comments about treating your finders like doormats is nothing more than rhetoric. Just because I wouldn't hesitate to change my cache ratings does not mean I treat my finders like doormats. An inaccurate listing treats the finders who've yet to find your cache like a doormat, in my opinion.

 

I am for keeping it accurate but after the cache been there a year and the experience changed, its best to archive it and post a new cache there.

 

Changing the rating of a cache after people been finding the cache in good faith of the rating and tell them to just "deal with it" after it become easier is treating them like door mats. If there was no fizzy challenges, people wont be looking for those high rated caches. Think about that.

 

In some area, there are liar caches just for those fizzy challenge because of owners like you changing the rating instead of archive the cache and post a new one. If you want to change the rating just to mean, you are abusing it.

[+bflentje]

 

I am for keeping it accurate but after the cache been there a year and the experience changed, its best to archive it and post a new cache there.

 

Changing the rating of a cache after people been finding the cache in good faith of the rating and tell them to just "deal with it" after it become easier is treating them like door mats. If there was no fizzy challenges, people wont be looking for those high rated caches. Think about that.

 

In some area, there are liar caches just for those fizzy challenge because of owners like you changing the rating instead of archive the cache and post a new one. If you want to change the rating just to mean, you are abusing it.

 

Here's why I insert the eye-roll and then move on..

[+Dame Deco]

And I know that a half star changes a rating to ruin a fizzy, but not everyone would change the rating for such a small change. Some might only change a rating if it changed by a full star, anyway. If it changes that much, just archive and make a new cache. Why is that such a terrible thing--why shrug and say "so what"? Just to make yourself feel powerful and smart? What I've loved about geocaching from the start is the sense of community that I've found through this hobby. I care about people who find my caches and what the stats mean to them--I wouldn't change a tricky rating after six months, I'd just archive and make a new cache.

[GOF and Bacall]

The difficulty and terrain ratings should, as accurately as possible, reflect what a cacher can expect to find when they go to find the cache. If things change then the ratings should be changed to reflect the new conditions.

 

If the conditions are different at different times of year I'd say go with the higher ratings and mention the seasonal changes on the cache page.

[+Dame Deco]

or the cache can be archived and replaced with a new one. Why not list that as a valid choice?

[+fizzymagic]

Please don't let Fizzy challenges keep you from changing your terrain ratings when appropriate. I'd hate to think that something with my name attached would be used to keep ratings from being accurate!

 

I believe that for Fizzy challenges finders should record the terrain and difficulty ratings for caches when they found them. That's what I do.

[+SwineFlew]

 

I believe that for Fizzy challenges finders should record the terrain and difficulty ratings for caches when they found them. That's what I do.

 

The problem is that some CO wont take your word for it.

 

Its not just for fizzy but for any challenges thats base on the rating systems.

 

If you got a cache that is 4.5D/4.0T and its true to the rating and in three years, it becomes really easy because the park build a road right by it. Its not the same cache anymore because the experience of the cache changed BIG time. If thats the case, its base to archived the cache and post a new one.

 

I am all for keeping the rating accurate, but I am all for keeping the cache experience accurate as well when I first posted the cache! Many of you guys always say if the cache experience change over time, its best to archived the cache and post a new one(there is few thread about those). Now you guys are saying its ok to keep the cache going and just change the rating. :blink: :blink:

[+OZ2CPU]

Don't mess up folks stats who did the cache in good faith years ago. If it's changed that much, archive the old one and post a new cache in the same spot.

Amen!!!!

 

YES YES YES !!!

I did this a few times, it really works,

I only change D/T ratings the first few days or weeks, if alot of the erly finders complain about it beeing too hi or too low,

after that it is NOT a good idea to change it..

but again if something out there change for better or for worse,

I either disable it during too easy or too hard month if it is a weather issue

or archive it, and make a new one matching the new conditions.

it is normal to see some what variations of ratings, some are more or less fit or experianced

so you cant really compare caches with same ratings to be exactly as easy to find or to get access to..

[+Mike & Jess]

Don't mess up folks stats who did the cache in good faith years ago. If it's changed that much, archive the old one and post a new cache in the same spot.

Amen!!!!

 

YES YES YES !!!

I did this a few times, it really works,

I only change D/T ratings the first few days or weeks, if alot of the erly finders complain about it beeing too hi or too low,

after that it is NOT a good idea to change it..

but again if something out there change for better or for worse,

I either disable it during too easy or too hard month if it is a weather issue

or archive it, and make a new one matching the new conditions.

it is normal to see some what variations of ratings, some are more or less fit or experianced

so you cant really compare caches with same ratings to be exactly as easy to find or to get access to..

 

If the bolded text is in regards to one of my posts, I was commenting on the same cache, visited 2 years apart (loved the area, had to go back).

[+niraD]

Here's another vote for accurate listings. If the terrain changes, then update the cache listing accordingly. The primary purpose of the difficulty and terrain ratings is to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers. Any other purposes are purely secondary.

 

Those who want to play side-games based on statistics need to deal with updates to cache listings. Expecting cache owners to preserve their cache listings in an inaccurate state is unreasonable. Expecting cache owners to archive and re-list an otherwise unchanged cache because a bridge/road/trail was built/closed is unreasonable.

 

As a courtesy, the cache owner could post an Owner Maintenance log describing the change, and mentioning the original rating and the new rating. But do update the rating when conditions warrant.

[+SwineFlew]

Here's another vote for accurate listings. If the terrain changes, then update the cache listing accordingly. The primary purpose of the difficulty and terrain ratings is to communicate the general nature of the cache experience to potential seekers. Any other purposes are purely secondary.

 

Those who want to play side-games based on statistics need to deal with updates to cache listings. Expecting cache owners to preserve their cache listings in an inaccurate state is unreasonable. Expecting cache owners to archive and re-list an otherwise unchanged cache because a bridge/road/trail was built/closed is unreasonable.

As a courtesy, the cache owner could post an Owner Maintenance log describing the change, and mentioning the original rating and the new rating. But do update the rating when conditions warrant.

Thanks for that idea. I like it. That way the CO of the challenges will know why the rating was changed and when.

[+Don_J]

 

Keep in mind that you might get poor logs if you mess up someone stats. I think its RUDE to change a cache rating 3 years down the road(especially those high rated caches). If the cache rating needs to be change, start up a new cache. It goes a long way that way. Plus, you are taking people back to the same area again. If I found a cache that was true to the rating and it became easier, and you change it, I wont be too happy with you because I took time, money and special equipments to get it done. There are people out there that only do very difficult caches

 

My opinion, if the experiences of getting to the cache changes, its time to start up a new cache there and archived the other one.

 

Edit to add...I think its ok to change the rating within 3 months of the published date but after that, dont change the rating on those high rated caches. Just archive them and start a new one.

 

+1,000,000

 

It seems that the same people that constantly say that if the caching experience is considerably changed in regards to changing a container, then it should be archived and a new listing created, are the same people that are so quick to change DT ratings with no regard to the fact that the experience has changed, and no regard to the people that have previously found their cache.

 

I say that if years after placing your cache, things have substantially changed, then it may be time to retire the cache and start over.

 

The constant 'screw the other cacher because he's playing a side game that I don't like' attitude on this forum is really disturbing. I'm honored when people search for my caches, regardless of the reason. The last thing that I'm going to do is start jerking them around. If in the first couple of weeks, it's obvious that I have the ratings wrong, I'll adjust them. After that, micro managing a half star after five years just seems silly. If the entire experience has changed, I'll create a new listing, or I'll archive and pull the container and be done with it.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Don_J

[+choochoo1996]

Here is the cache the TO is refering to

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c7176bb8-c5ed-4353-ab0b-81cba119e5f5

 

Even tho some cutting has been going on....This is still the highest point in Ontario....Check the logs and you will see that the next cacher would probably say it is still a 5/5....Many miles to any road.....no town for miles around, and still a long hike to the top.....I agree with archiving and re-publishing a cache if it has changed significantly but this 1 hasnt changed enough to warant a change in D/T....

Edited September 12, 2012 by choochoo1996

[+Mike & Jess]

Here is the cache the TO is refering to

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c7176bb8-c5ed-4353-ab0b-81cba119e5f5

 

Even tho some cutting has been going on....This is still the highest point in Ontario....Check the logs and you will see that the next cacher would probably say it is still a 5/5....Many miles to any road.....no town for miles around, and still a long hike to the top.....I agree with archiving and re-publishing a cache if it has changed significantly but this 1 hasnt changed enough to warant a change in D/T....

 

This coming from someone who has never been to the cache.

It was a 5/5 in 2010. Now with a bridge crossing the river, no bushwhacking, if you can hike a distance (no special gear required), it is not a 5 terrain anymore. The top of Ontario is a tourist trap now. Driving the family minivan ~80km on smoother then in town logging roads, biking a gravel road (or driving if you cross the river/bridge) for 10km, and hiking 4km +4km (~4km to summit trail head and just under 4km to tower) is not tough terrain.

I do however think it should stay as is to keep the those non-bush savy safe. I don't want to see a cacher from the city assume that a 4 or 4.5 terrain rating in Southern Ontario is the same as a 4-4.5 in the North. There is no cellular coverage, so this could pose an issue for the newer P&G geocaching population.

 

That being said, this thread wasn't about a specific cache. It was more to grab other's opinions as our large play ground is changing. The cache I revisited this past weekend (because I loved the area) just happen to be the fuel behind my OP as it has changed so much. It went from a very tough trek (6.5-7hours bike/hike/bushwhack from the van) to a weekend outting I'll be bringing the family on next summer (now 3.5 hours). If my (will be 4yrs old next year, with autism) son can hike the trip (which he currently can), it is not a Northern Ontario 5 terrain.

[+Glenn]

Here's how I look at it. If the terrain rating change is because the terrain was rated inaccurately in the first place and the cache was recently hidden then change it. If the terrain rating changed because the terrain has changed significantly enough then you need to seriously think about archiving the cache and relisting it otherwise not adjusting for a small change in terrain or seasonal issue is no big deal. It's rare to find a cache with an inaccurate terrain rating that has been in existence for years and the terrain itself hasn't changed significantly because people tend to let the CO in the cache logs that their terrain rating needs adjusting.

[+J the Goat]

Chalk me up to the accurate ratings crowd. Cache listings have to be accurate, otherwise you're lying to your "customers". I certainly don't care about your fizzy grid, nor do I really care about mine. I'm bringing you to a location for the location, not to fill a square. If you want to use my cache to fill a square, that's completely on you. My goal is to represent my caches in an accurate manner.

 

And I take issue with whoever said that people wouldn't go look for difficult/rare combos without the presence of the fizzy challenges. I do. Those are the caches that I enjoy the most.

 

There's no reason to archive a cache if Mother Nature decides to throw a curveball at the approach and make it more or less difficult.

 

I say deal with it.

[+Mike & Jess]

Chalk me up to the accurate ratings crowd. Cache listings have to be accurate, otherwise you're lying to your "customers". I certainly don't care about your fizzy grid, nor do I really care about mine. I'm bringing you to a location for the location, not to fill a square. If you want to use my cache to fill a square, that's completely on you. My goal is to represent my caches in an accurate manner.

 

And I take issue with whoever said that people wouldn't go look for difficult/rare combos without the presence of the fizzy challenges. I do. Those are the caches that I enjoy the most.

 

There's no reason to archive a cache if Mother Nature decides to throw a curveball at the approach and make it more or less difficult.

 

I say deal with it.

 

I can't agree more.

[+Don_J]

Here is the cache the TO is refering to

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c7176bb8-c5ed-4353-ab0b-81cba119e5f5

 

Even tho some cutting has been going on....This is still the highest point in Ontario....Check the logs and you will see that the next cacher would probably say it is still a 5/5....Many miles to any road.....no town for miles around, and still a long hike to the top.....I agree with archiving and re-publishing a cache if it has changed significantly but this 1 hasnt changed enough to warant a change in D/T....

 

This coming from someone who has never been to the cache.

It was a 5/5 in 2010. Now with a bridge crossing the river, no bushwhacking, if you can hike a distance (no special gear required), it is not a 5 terrain anymore. The top of Ontario is a tourist trap now. Driving the family minivan ~80km on smoother then in town logging roads, biking a gravel road (or driving if you cross the river/bridge) for 10km, and hiking 4km +4km (~4km to summit trail head and just under 4km to tower) is not tough terrain.

I do however think it should stay as is to keep the those non-bush savy safe. I don't want to see a cacher from the city assume that a 4 or 4.5 terrain rating in Southern Ontario is the same as a 4-4.5 in the North. There is no cellular coverage, so this could pose an issue for the newer P&G geocaching population.

 

That being said, this thread wasn't about a specific cache. It was more to grab other's opinions as our large play ground is changing. The cache I revisited this past weekend (because I loved the area) just happen to be the fuel behind my OP as it has changed so much. It went from a very tough trek (6.5-7hours bike/hike/bushwhack from the van) to a weekend outting I'll be bringing the family on next summer (now 3.5 hours). If my (will be 4yrs old next year, with autism) son can hike the trip (which he currently can), it is not a Northern Ontario 5 terrain.

 

A terrain rating is just that. A rating. It should be applied equally, everywhere. The idea that a 4 in the south should be any different than a 4 in the north does not make sense. I understand your concern, but it sounds to me that people in the south might be over rating their caches. My personal physical capabilities say that if it is a cross country hike with mountains involved, I can handle a 4. I need to be careful with a 4.5 and a 5 is totally out. If people consistently rated their caches based on the actual criteria and not on their own capabilities or the local culture, I should be able to look at a cache anywhere in the world and know what type of adventure I am getting into. That would be a perfect world however. In reality, I can easily find examples close to me where three caches are placed within a half mile of each other on a local trail, one will be a 2, another a 3 and another a 3.5, when using the criteria on the website, all are a 2.5.

[+Mike & Jess]

Here is the cache the TO is refering to

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c7176bb8-c5ed-4353-ab0b-81cba119e5f5

 

Even tho some cutting has been going on....This is still the highest point in Ontario....Check the logs and you will see that the next cacher would probably say it is still a 5/5....Many miles to any road.....no town for miles around, and still a long hike to the top.....I agree with archiving and re-publishing a cache if it has changed significantly but this 1 hasnt changed enough to warant a change in D/T....

 

This coming from someone who has never been to the cache.

It was a 5/5 in 2010. Now with a bridge crossing the river, no bushwhacking, if you can hike a distance (no special gear required), it is not a 5 terrain anymore. The top of Ontario is a tourist trap now. Driving the family minivan ~80km on smoother then in town logging roads, biking a gravel road (or driving if you cross the river/bridge) for 10km, and hiking 4km +4km (~4km to summit trail head and just under 4km to tower) is not tough terrain.

I do however think it should stay as is to keep the those non-bush savy safe. I don't want to see a cacher from the city assume that a 4 or 4.5 terrain rating in Southern Ontario is the same as a 4-4.5 in the North. There is no cellular coverage, so this could pose an issue for the newer P&G geocaching population.

 

That being said, this thread wasn't about a specific cache. It was more to grab other's opinions as our large play ground is changing. The cache I revisited this past weekend (because I loved the area) just happen to be the fuel behind my OP as it has changed so much. It went from a very tough trek (6.5-7hours bike/hike/bushwhack from the van) to a weekend outting I'll be bringing the family on next summer (now 3.5 hours). If my (will be 4yrs old next year, with autism) son can hike the trip (which he currently can), it is not a Northern Ontario 5 terrain.

 

A terrain rating is just that. A rating. It should be applied equally, everywhere. The idea that a 4 in the south should be any different than a 4 in the north does not make sense. I understand your concern, but it sounds to me that people in the south might be over rating their caches. My personal physical capabilities say that if it is a cross country hike with mountains involved, I can handle a 4. I need to be careful with a 4.5 and a 5 is totally out. If people consistently rated their caches based on the actual criteria and not on their own capabilities or the local culture, I should be able to look at a cache anywhere in the world and know what type of adventure I am getting into. That would be a perfect world however. In reality, I can easily find examples close to me where three caches are placed within a half mile of each other on a local trail, one will be a 2, another a 3 and another a 3.5, when using the criteria on the website, all are a 2.5.

 

I feel the exact same way about the rating system. I have however seen tons of logs (local caches) from southern (Ontario) cachers indicating that what we consider say a 3 terrain, should be a 4, or that our local (culture) terrain ratings are under rated (lower number then they expected for the location).

 

I should also clarify that Southern Ontario is a high population, mostly cities and organized (trails and maps) parks. Most caches are park & grabs with a couple light hiking caches in local parks.

Northern Ontario is smaller cities/towns, scattered with lots of forest (a very big play ground for some of us geocachers). I placed our first local lamp skirt cache a couple years ago in a city of ~100k POP. Until recently (last 2 years), caching was more of an outdoors sport in the bush (hiking, biking, quads, etc). Park & grabs only recently taken over locally but are still fairly outnumbered outside the city.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Mike & Jess

[Andronicus]

This is why, if possible, there should be a feature where the D/T rating is encoded into the log entry at the time it is entered.

+1. That would be great. Save the poor guy who just finished his matrix, while enabling the CO to accuriatly rate his cache.