Need opinions on cache design

[+GoleeMD]

Ok, so I have a series in northern DE that I'm putting out based on Lord of the Rings, and I'm trying to keep the caches as interesting as possible. I have 2 ideas for the next one, but I'm wondering which people would enjoy finding more.

 

Would you rather find:

1. A traditional cache that is a submerged ammo can that you can retrieve from dry land, or...

2. A multi where the first stage is a small submerged container with only coords inside that lead to the larger cache on land.

 

A submerged cache (or stage) is part of the theme for this cache. Personally, I think #1 would be cooler to find, but will be a lot more difficult to maintain. #2 would be easier to maintain, but I think the coolness factor would be slightly diminished. I've asked a few others and have received mixed opinions thus far.

 

What do you think?

 

Or, if you have other ideas for a water-based cache that can be retrieved from land, I'd love to hear them!

[+kunarion]

I think #1 would be cooler to find, but will be a lot more difficult to maintain. #2 would be easier to maintain, but I think the coolness factor would be slightly diminished.

It depends on what the submerged item may be. If it's some themed item [let's say, a "ring"] with inscribed coords, that might be great if done right. Something that can remain wet with no problem may be preferable than a container of soaking wet cache items.

Edited September 6, 2012 by kunarion

[+GoleeMD]

I think #1 would be cooler to find, but will be a lot more difficult to maintain. #2 would be easier to maintain, but I think the coolness factor would be slightly diminished.

It depends on what the submerged item may be. If it's some themed item [let's say, a "ring"] with inscribed coords, that might be great if done right. Something that can remain wet with no problem may be preferable than a container of soaking wet cache items.

 

That's a good idea to inscribe coords on something. If I did a multi, I was planning on a submerged bottle containing a film canister, which would contain a small capped tube with laminated coords inside, but your idea is much simpler! The "ring" was already done in an earlier cache, but I'm sure I can come up with something relating to this part of the story.

 

If I went with the ammo can, it would be weighted and tethered, and would have a small lock-n-lock inside, which would have swag in it as well as the log in a film canister (triple container).

[+GoleeMD]

Sorry... double post.

Edited September 6, 2012 by GoleeMD

[Mr.Yuck]

The Multi-cache designation will scare many people away. For one thing, I think a large number of smartphone newbie Geocachers don't even try multi's, because they don't know how to enter a Waypoint. You can do it, but in my opinion, a lot of people who cache exclusively with a phone don't know how to do it.

 

I have found a submerged ammo can retrieveable from shore. It had a 10 LB. barbell in it, if I remember correctly.

[+kunarion]

The Multi-cache designation will scare many people away. For one thing, I think a large number of smartphone newbie Geocachers don't even try multi's, because they don't know how to enter a Waypoint. You can do it, but in my opinion, a lot of people who cache exclusively with a phone don't know how to do it.

Good point. There was a submerged cache around here, but not found very often (due to water levels among other things), so if it were part of a Multi, it would be found even less often. This is very good for maintaining the cache integrity (I have a Puzzle cache that's not found often, so it's super easy to maintain, and everything's dry and intact all the time). It's not so good if you need lots of finders.

[+GoleeMD]

Yes, I do realize that multi's tend to scare off a few potential finders, but there are several multi's in the series already that are getting several finds, mostly by veteran cachers. I'm sure that will slow down over time. Most of these multi's are somewhat complex, so I don't necessarily want a TON of finders (especially newbies) as that will increase the maintenance on them. Many of the ones later in the series are traditional caches, and there is an incentive of 4 bonus caches for collecting all the clues in the first 16. There will be 20 total, but only 7 are published as of today. I'm hoping that when people start finding some of the traditional ones and get excited about the series, then they will start trying to tackle the more complex ones. So far, the multi's seem to be getting a lot of positive response and favorites, so I think that will entice a few others to look for them as well.

 

Here's a list of the caches in the series up to this point if you want to check them out:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=424962fd-1d6e-4df2-b0cf-99c43d21dd5a

[+Viajero Perdido]

I've found the odd ammo can in a normal, above-ground location that was soaking wet inside. I'd hesitate to take my chances with full immersion.

[+GoleeMD]

I've found the odd ammo can in a normal, above-ground location that was soaking wet inside. I'd hesitate to take my chances with full immersion.

 

Yeah, I know there's a risk of that. I would test it in the pool for a few days first, but even with a waterproof container there's always the risk of someone not sealing it properly before putting it back. That's also why I would have the lock-n-lock for the swag inside of that (also will have been tested), and then a film canister for the log inside of THAT. Also, in humid environs, humid air trapped in the ammo can when it's closed will condense on the inside once it's submerged in colder water, so a little moisture in the container is to be expected. Otherwise, ammo cans are pretty waterproof IF sealed properly.

 

I'm thinking of trying the ammo can idea first, mainly just to avoid making another multi in the series, but also because I think that pulling a large, heavy cache out of the water would be cooler than pulling up a little trinket of some sort with coords on it. If it doesn't hold up well then I'll switch it to a multi. It will be a few days before I can get working on it, so I'm still open to opinions and suggestions!

[+Armorsmith]

Buoyancy is always an issue with submerged caches too. The bigger the cache, the larger/stronger the anchor you need to keep it submerged.

 

I like kunarion's idea about using a ring with the coords engraved on the inside, but remember to use a metal with good corrosion resistance.

 

Also, in humid environs, humid air trapped in the ammo can when it's closed will condense on the inside.

 

I use Pelican cases for my camera gear, and use 40 gram rechargeable silica gel packs to keep the insides bone dry. I expect that having one in an ammo can would help a lot. You'd need an extra one so you can recharge it in the oven and swap it out every couple months or so.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Armorsmith

[+GoleeMD]

Buoyancy is always an issue with submerged caches too. The bigger the cache, the larger/stronger the anchor you need to keep it submerged.

 

I like kunarion's idea about using a ring with the coords engraved on the inside, but remember to use a metal with good corrosion resistance.

 

So the ammo can is one of the smaller ones, and I was planning on filling it with poured concrete and pressing the Lock-N-Lock into the top of the concrete to make a little formed recess for it to fit in. I'm sure that would sink it no problem. The other idea I had was to put about 10lbs of rocks or diving weights in it, but I think those would move around too much and damage the other container inside. It would make for easier maintenance though if I had to take them out for any reason.

 

Another vote for a multi though... hmmm... what to do...

 

It would have to be something besides the ring though. I used the ring idea on the first cache, and I don't have the resources right now to engrave a ring like that. The cache is going to be for the "Great River" part of the story where the fellowship paddles down the river Anduin after leaving Lorien. I'll have to think of something relevant to that part of the story. For anyone familiar with the story, any suggestions for this part are welcome!

[+kunarion]

I used the ring idea on the first cache, and I don't have the resources right now to engrave a ring like that.

You might embed most any small object in acrylic resin, even a photo or printout. Or place it in a sealed, weighted preform or other transparent container. Then you don't need metal items nor engraving.

[+GoleeMD]

I used the ring idea on the first cache, and I don't have the resources right now to engrave a ring like that.

You might embed most any small object in acrylic resin, even a photo or printout. Or place it in a sealed, weighted preform or other transparent container. Then you don't need metal items nor engraving.

 

You guys have given me some ideas to think about here. I've got a few things sunk out in my pool now for testing. I was going to try to get away with just putting a bunch of rocks in the ammo can, but I guess the rocks I have around here aren't dense/heavy enough, because it still floated when it was nearly full of rocks. If I'm going to use it I will probably have to pour it full of concrete or anchor it with a cinder block on the bottom, which will make for a very heavy cache to retrieve by a rope from the end of a pier. I'm thinking your idea of something smaller to submerge is a better idea, though I was really hoping I could get the ammo can to work.

[+J the Goat]

I used the ring idea on the first cache, and I don't have the resources right now to engrave a ring like that.

You might embed most any small object in acrylic resin, even a photo or printout. Or place it in a sealed, weighted preform or other transparent container. Then you don't need metal items nor engraving.

 

You guys have given me some ideas to think about here. I've got a few things sunk out in my pool now for testing. I was going to try to get away with just putting a bunch of rocks in the ammo can, but I guess the rocks I have around here aren't dense/heavy enough, because it still floated when it was nearly full of rocks. If I'm going to use it I will probably have to pour it full of concrete or anchor it with a cinder block on the bottom, which will make for a very heavy cache to retrieve by a rope from the end of a pier. I'm thinking your idea of something smaller to submerge is a better idea, though I was really hoping I could get the ammo can to work.

 

I've submerged an ammo can before. Sort of. It was difficult and ultimately didn't last, although our method was crude at best. We put a rock on it

 

I like the idea of a submerged stage in a multi. Make the rest of it quality too and you'll get some stellar logs.

[+GoleeMD]

I used the ring idea on the first cache, and I don't have the resources right now to engrave a ring like that.

You might embed most any small object in acrylic resin, even a photo or printout. Or place it in a sealed, weighted preform or other transparent container. Then you don't need metal items nor engraving.

 

You guys have given me some ideas to think about here. I've got a few things sunk out in my pool now for testing. I was going to try to get away with just putting a bunch of rocks in the ammo can, but I guess the rocks I have around here aren't dense/heavy enough, because it still floated when it was nearly full of rocks. If I'm going to use it I will probably have to pour it full of concrete or anchor it with a cinder block on the bottom, which will make for a very heavy cache to retrieve by a rope from the end of a pier. I'm thinking your idea of something smaller to submerge is a better idea, though I was really hoping I could get the ammo can to work.

I've submerged an ammo can before. Sort of. It was difficult and ultimately didn't last, although our method was crude at best. We put a rock on it

 

I like the idea of a submerged stage in a multi. Make the rest of it quality too and you'll get some stellar logs.

 

Thanks for the input! It seems that the multi idea is favored by most so far. The only reason I shy away from it is because the series is rather overloaded with multi's and unknowns at this point (4 multi's, 1 unknown, and 2 traditional). Eh, what's one more? I've been getting good logs and favorite points on the multi's so far, so I think I've got a few folks hooked. If you hide it, they will come.

[+Armorsmith]

You guys have given me some ideas to think about here. I've got a few things sunk out in my pool now for testing. I was going to try to get away with just putting a bunch of rocks in the ammo can, but I guess the rocks I have around here aren't dense/heavy enough, because it still floated when it was nearly full of rocks. If I'm going to use it I will probably have to pour it full of concrete or anchor it with a cinder block on the bottom, which will make for a very heavy cache to retrieve by a rope from the end of a pier. I'm thinking your idea of something smaller to submerge is a better idea, though I was really hoping I could get the ammo can to work.

 

I went ahead and did the math, not sure if you still need it, but if the ammo can is a standard small 350 cubic inch model (about 4x8x11) you'll need at least 180 cubic inches of concrete to make it neutrally bouyant. Round about 10 lbs after it's dry, couldn't find an approximate weight for it wet. I'd go with 15 lbs dry just to be safe though, about 3/4 full, that way it will have enough mass for it to stay where you put it and not get moved around by the currents.