Cryptography Forum

[+Arndtwe]

I've been on a bit of kick lately... trying to solve puzzle caches. A few people in my area are very creative and have come up with some great hides and puzzles. I love doing the research on how certain codes work to solve these caches. While doing my research over multiple websites and resources is fun, I have not found an active online community for cryptography related things (although, I may just not have found it yet). Many websites offer descriptions on how codes work and the history behind them, some even offer software to help with the creation and decoding.

 

Seeing as this community uses these things a lot, and there is a lack of centralized resources I think it would be great if we could add a forum for this topic. Of course it would not be for solving specific caches but rather a place to let our creative juices flow and to spread knowledge on how this stuff works. I know there are a lot not-so-well-known tricks in regards to coordinate systems that are poorly documented. This type of information would be awesome to have and share.

 

What do you guys think? Is that something others would like to see as well? Further suggestions or criticism to improve upon this idea? I would love to hear your thoughts, maybe this could become a reality soon!

[Keystone]

Of course it would not be for solving specific caches ...

Easier said than done. Such a forum would be a nightmare to moderate, but I obviously speak from a biased perspective.

 

Maybe if they doubled my pay????

 

Speaking of moderating, I am moving your thread from the Geocaching Topics forum to the Feature Suggestions forum.

[+Arndtwe]

Of course it would not be for solving specific caches ...

Easier said than done. Such a forum would be a nightmare to moderate, but I obviously speak from a biased perspective.

 

Maybe if they doubled my pay????

 

Speaking of moderating, I am moving your thread from the Geocaching Topics forum to the Feature Suggestions forum.

I'm sure it would not be easy, but why would it be of a nightmare? Or at least any more of nightmare then the rest of them?

 

LOL, good luck with the pay raise

 

...Aaaand I wondered if it should have gone here. Oh well. Thanks for doing your job

Edited September 3, 2012 by Arndtwe

[Keystone]

Given the threads that pop up weekly, asking for help with a specific puzzle cache, I worry that a forum labeled "cryptography" will be an invitation for more people to post such threads. Sure, you could have a pinned thread called FORUM RULES that warns against spoiling specific caches. Experience has proven that few people read pinned threads and guideline documents.

[+Arndtwe]

Given the threads that pop up weekly, asking for help with a specific puzzle cache, I worry that a forum labeled "cryptography" will be an invitation for more people to post such threads. Sure, you could have a pinned thread called FORUM RULES that warns against spoiling specific caches. Experience has proven that few people read pinned threads and guideline documents.

Ah, I see the problem. So would you prefer not to see this be implemented?

 

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a feel for what everyone thinks, including our mods!

[+tozainamboku]

Given the threads that pop up weekly, asking for help with a specific puzzle cache, I worry that a forum labeled "cryptography" will be an invitation for more people to post such threads. Sure, you could have a pinned thread called FORUM RULES that warns against spoiling specific caches. Experience has proven that few people read pinned threads and guideline documents.

Ah, I see the problem. So would you prefer not to see this be implemented?

 

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a feel for what everyone thinks, including our mods!

As I've pointed out before, it's natural to ask for help on puzzles. I think a puzzle forum is a great idea. But my first reaction is the same as Keystone's. If you are going to retain the clause in the Terms of Use that forbids publishing solutions, hints, spoilers, or any hidden coordinates for any geocache without consent from the cache owner; this would be an impossible job for the moderators.

 

Of course the forum will be full of people asking for help on specific caches. Even if you adopt a rule like no GC numbers and no cache names, people will find the cache based on the OP's location and the description of the puzzle. Even if actual solutions are never posted, cache owners will say that what was published is a spoiler.

 

Perhaps you could have a forum where cache owners can post their own puzzle for discussion. Then at least you would have the owners permission for discussing solutions and hints. The problem here it that someone will post that they saw a similar puzzle in a different location. That cache owner can complain that the solutions and hints, published with permission of the first owner, are now spoiling their cache.

 

I think the only solution for a puzzle forum is for someone to start one not on a Groundspeak website. Of course given the feelings that some have regarding any "spoilers", it's likely that moderators here would not allow such a site to even be mentioned.

 

Face it. Groundspeak hates puzzle solvers and does not want to encourage more people to solve puzzle. They may claim that they want to prevent people from "cheating" by looking up the answers; but ultimately all they are doing is preventing those who want to learn how to solve puzzles from being able to do so.

[+niraD]

Perhaps you could have a forum where cache owners can post their own puzzle for discussion. Then at least you would have the owners permission for discussing solutions and hints.

You mean something like the Spoil YOUR OWN puzzles here thread, except instead of having the CO include the solution/spoiler, the CO merely gives others permission to solve the puzzle and post the solution/spoiler?

[+cheech gang]

Face it. Groundspeak hates puzzle solvers and does not want to encourage more people to solve puzzle.

 

Talk about assuming facts not placed into evidence!

[+tozainamboku]

Face it. Groundspeak hates puzzle solvers and does not want to encourage more people to solve puzzle.

 

Talk about assuming facts not placed into evidence!

It's an opinion. Unfortunately I tried to use a little satire and refer to the famous "Geocaching hates chindlren" post, but not everyone knows that. What is more important, though still just my opinion, is that while you can prohibit discussion of puzzles out of respect to cache owners who think that spoiler make it less fun for those who enjoy puzzles, in the end you just end up discouraging people would like to try puzzles but can't seem to find anyone willing to help. It is my opinion that more harm is done to puzzle caches by this gag rule than would be done if a few people discovered that they didn't have to work puzzles to get the coordinates.

Edited September 3, 2012 by tozainamboku

[+fizzymagic]

Seems to me that (general) discussions of cryptography might fall nicely into a "geocaching techie" forum. As would discussions of the finer points of WAAS, etc. Right now, the GPS and Technology forum is completely filled with people asking specific questions about specific GPS units; my occasional techie posts do not belong at all.

[+Arndtwe]

Seems to me that (general) discussions of cryptography might fall nicely into a "geocaching techie" forum. As would discussions of the finer points of WAAS, etc. Right now, the GPS and Technology forum is completely filled with people asking specific questions about specific GPS units; my occasional techie posts do not belong at all.

This a neat idea, and would not be a bad thing at all. Although a little less focused than what I was thinking it is still a good idea. I just feel like there is so much information and tools for cryptography out there that it deserves it's own forum.

 

And as far solving specific puzzles goes... What I am thinking of for the structure of this type of forum would be more along the lines of posting information, not questions. Sure people could ask questions but that would not be the main focus. Rather, different threads would start off with someone explaining a certain type of cipher/tool/whatever and questions could follow. But I know, it would still be hard to moderate.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Arndtwe

[+Glenn]

Seems to me that (general) discussions of cryptography might fall nicely into a "geocaching techie" forum. As would discussions of the finer points of WAAS, etc. Right now, the GPS and Technology forum is completely filled with people asking specific questions about specific GPS units; my occasional techie posts do not belong at all.

 

While I hate the idea of a forum devoted to discussing specific puzzle caches I love the idea of a techie forum.

 

The reason that I think discussing puzzle caches in the forums is bad is because most puzzle caches that I have done it has been more about discovering the method of obscuring the cache coordinates than it has been actually solving for those coordinates. You really can't openly discuss a puzzle cache without giving that away. If methods are being linked to caches then what motivation do puzzle cache owners have to spend the time making puzzle caches. Don't get me wrong. I'm saying that puzzle cache owner don't want anyone to find their cache but if everyone can easily find the cache then how much different is it from a traditional cache? I wouldn't think it would be much different.

 

I think fizzymagic is right about GPS and Tech forum. It has become a "how do I fix my GPS" forum. It is time to split the forum in to two forums; a GPS forum and a Technology forum.

[cezanne]

What is more important, though still just my opinion, is that while you can prohibit discussion of puzzles out of respect to cache owners who think that spoiler make it less fun for those who enjoy puzzles, in the end you just end up discouraging people would like to try puzzles but can't seem to find anyone willing to help. It is my opinion that more harm is done to puzzle caches by this gag rule than would be done if a few people discovered that they didn't have to work puzzles to get the coordinates.

 

Depending on the region it is not about a few people who get the coordinates without work, but many of them.

I'm well willing to help those cachers who have interest into my caches that have already invested some work and who have the required background to at least be able to proceed with a little help now and there. You seem to ignore that there are many puzzles out there which require an appropriate background and without this background one has no chance to arrive at a solution not even with quite a lot of help. The same is true for me as climbing caches are regarded.

I'm not hiding mystery caches to have them abused by a considerably number of cachers who just want to find further containers and/or increase their find count or clear their home radius. It is not in my interest to motivate cachers to do puzzle caches. That's up to them.

 

In my area it is good for a cache to be difficult or long as otherwise it might get overrolled by visits. The times when a typical cache hider wished that more cachers would look for his/her caches are long gone in my area.

 

Cezanne

[+Arndtwe]

Seems to me that (general) discussions of cryptography might fall nicely into a "geocaching techie" forum. As would discussions of the finer points of WAAS, etc. Right now, the GPS and Technology forum is completely filled with people asking specific questions about specific GPS units; my occasional techie posts do not belong at all.

 

While I hate the idea of a forum devoted to discussing specific puzzle caches I love the idea of a techie forum.

 

The reason that I think discussing puzzle caches in the forums is bad is because most puzzle caches that I have done it has been more about discovering the method of obscuring the cache coordinates than it has been actually solving for those coordinates. You really can't openly discuss a puzzle cache without giving that away. If methods are being linked to caches then what motivation do puzzle cache owners have to spend the time making puzzle caches. Don't get me wrong. I'm saying that puzzle cache owner don't want anyone to find their cache but if everyone can easily find the cache then how much different is it from a traditional cache? I wouldn't think it would be much different.

 

I think fizzymagic is right about GPS and Tech forum. It has become a "how do I fix my GPS" forum. It is time to split the forum in to two forums; a GPS forum and a Technology forum.

 

What is more important, though still just my opinion, is that while you can prohibit discussion of puzzles out of respect to cache owners who think that spoiler make it less fun for those who enjoy puzzles, in the end you just end up discouraging people would like to try puzzles but can't seem to find anyone willing to help. It is my opinion that more harm is done to puzzle caches by this gag rule than would be done if a few people discovered that they didn't have to work puzzles to get the coordinates.

 

Depending on the region it is not about a few people who get the coordinates without work, but many of them.

I'm well willing to help those cachers who have interest into my caches that have already invested some work and who have the required background to at least be able to proceed with a little help now and there. You seem to ignore that there are many puzzles out there which require an appropriate background and without this background one has no chance to arrive at a solution not even with quite a lot of help. The same is true for me as climbing caches are regarded.

I'm not hiding mystery caches to have them abused by a considerably number of cachers who just want to find further containers and/or increase their find count or clear their home radius. It is not in my interest to motivate cachers to do puzzle caches. That's up to them.

 

In my area it is good for a cache to be difficult or long as otherwise it might get overrolled by visits. The times when a typical cache hider wished that more cachers would look for his/her caches are long gone in my area.

 

Cezanne

Well the forum would not be used for these purposes. I think you guys may have missed what I was trying to communicate. The forum would be for cryptography in general. Things like how ciphers work, tools to help you crack codes and so and so forth. I specifically mention the idea of this forum to not be used for specific caches, but rather a place where people can bring new ideas to the table. It would not be for people to ask for help on solving someone else's cache. The name of the forum would not be "Get help solving puzzle caches" it would something like "Cryptography, the ins and outs of coding" or something to that extent.

[cezanne]

Well the forum would not be used for these purposes. I think you guys may have missed what I was trying to communicate.

 

As I'm concerned I have not missed anything. I just reply to a previous posting.

 

The forum would be for cryptography in general. Things like how ciphers work, tools to help you crack codes and so and so forth. I specifically mention the idea of this forum to not be used for specific caches, but rather a place where people can bring new ideas to the table. It would not be for people to ask for help on solving someone else's cache. The name of the forum would not be "Get help solving puzzle caches" it would something like "Cryptography, the ins and outs of coding" or something to that extent.

 

In order to avoid that spoilers happen, the moderators will have to work hard, however. Much too often cachers ask about specific caches. BTW: If the title of the subforum is that general, the context to geocaching gets lost.

 

 

Cezanne

[+Don_J]

Seems to me that (general) discussions of cryptography might fall nicely into a "geocaching techie" forum. As would discussions of the finer points of WAAS, etc. Right now, the GPS and Technology forum is completely filled with people asking specific questions about specific GPS units; my occasional techie posts do not belong at all.

 

While I hate the idea of a forum devoted to discussing specific puzzle caches I love the idea of a techie forum.

 

The reason that I think discussing puzzle caches in the forums is bad is because most puzzle caches that I have done it has been more about discovering the method of obscuring the cache coordinates than it has been actually solving for those coordinates. You really can't openly discuss a puzzle cache without giving that away. If methods are being linked to caches then what motivation do puzzle cache owners have to spend the time making puzzle caches. Don't get me wrong. I'm saying that puzzle cache owner don't want anyone to find their cache but if everyone can easily find the cache then how much different is it from a traditional cache? I wouldn't think it would be much different.

 

I think fizzymagic is right about GPS and Tech forum. It has become a "how do I fix my GPS" forum. It is time to split the forum in to two forums; a GPS forum and a Technology forum.

 

What is more important, though still just my opinion, is that while you can prohibit discussion of puzzles out of respect to cache owners who think that spoiler make it less fun for those who enjoy puzzles, in the end you just end up discouraging people would like to try puzzles but can't seem to find anyone willing to help. It is my opinion that more harm is done to puzzle caches by this gag rule than would be done if a few people discovered that they didn't have to work puzzles to get the coordinates.

 

Depending on the region it is not about a few people who get the coordinates without work, but many of them.

I'm well willing to help those cachers who have interest into my caches that have already invested some work and who have the required background to at least be able to proceed with a little help now and there. You seem to ignore that there are many puzzles out there which require an appropriate background and without this background one has no chance to arrive at a solution not even with quite a lot of help. The same is true for me as climbing caches are regarded.

I'm not hiding mystery caches to have them abused by a considerably number of cachers who just want to find further containers and/or increase their find count or clear their home radius. It is not in my interest to motivate cachers to do puzzle caches. That's up to them.

 

In my area it is good for a cache to be difficult or long as otherwise it might get overrolled by visits. The times when a typical cache hider wished that more cachers would look for his/her caches are long gone in my area.

 

Cezanne

Well the forum would not be used for these purposes. I think you guys may have missed what I was trying to communicate. The forum would be for cryptography in general. Things like how ciphers work, tools to help you crack codes and so and so forth. I specifically mention the idea of this forum to not be used for specific caches, but rather a place where people can bring new ideas to the table. It would not be for people to ask for help on solving someone else's cache. The name of the forum would not be "Get help solving puzzle caches" it would something like "Cryptography, the ins and outs of coding" or something to that extent.

 

I don't think that anyone misunderstands your idea of how the forum should be used, they are just expressing their opinions of how people would try to use/abuse the forum. As was noted, we get one or two new posts a week asking for specific help. If you create a forum dedicated to puzzles, despite all of the warnings, you'll just be inviting more of those types of threads. More than once, someone has asked for help on a specific puzzle and before the moderator could react, someone else posted the solution. One wanted help and the other wanted to help, but neither had any idea the the forum wasn't the proper place to do it. If you create a forum specific to puzzles, and then say, "but don't do this", it will happen anyway and it will be a nightmare to moderate.

[+Arndtwe]

Seems to me that (general) discussions of cryptography might fall nicely into a "geocaching techie" forum. As would discussions of the finer points of WAAS, etc. Right now, the GPS and Technology forum is completely filled with people asking specific questions about specific GPS units; my occasional techie posts do not belong at all.

 

While I hate the idea of a forum devoted to discussing specific puzzle caches I love the idea of a techie forum.

 

The reason that I think discussing puzzle caches in the forums is bad is because most puzzle caches that I have done it has been more about discovering the method of obscuring the cache coordinates than it has been actually solving for those coordinates. You really can't openly discuss a puzzle cache without giving that away. If methods are being linked to caches then what motivation do puzzle cache owners have to spend the time making puzzle caches. Don't get me wrong. I'm saying that puzzle cache owner don't want anyone to find their cache but if everyone can easily find the cache then how much different is it from a traditional cache? I wouldn't think it would be much different.

 

I think fizzymagic is right about GPS and Tech forum. It has become a "how do I fix my GPS" forum. It is time to split the forum in to two forums; a GPS forum and a Technology forum.

 

What is more important, though still just my opinion, is that while you can prohibit discussion of puzzles out of respect to cache owners who think that spoiler make it less fun for those who enjoy puzzles, in the end you just end up discouraging people would like to try puzzles but can't seem to find anyone willing to help. It is my opinion that more harm is done to puzzle caches by this gag rule than would be done if a few people discovered that they didn't have to work puzzles to get the coordinates.

 

Depending on the region it is not about a few people who get the coordinates without work, but many of them.

I'm well willing to help those cachers who have interest into my caches that have already invested some work and who have the required background to at least be able to proceed with a little help now and there. You seem to ignore that there are many puzzles out there which require an appropriate background and without this background one has no chance to arrive at a solution not even with quite a lot of help. The same is true for me as climbing caches are regarded.

I'm not hiding mystery caches to have them abused by a considerably number of cachers who just want to find further containers and/or increase their find count or clear their home radius. It is not in my interest to motivate cachers to do puzzle caches. That's up to them.

 

In my area it is good for a cache to be difficult or long as otherwise it might get overrolled by visits. The times when a typical cache hider wished that more cachers would look for his/her caches are long gone in my area.

 

Cezanne

Well the forum would not be used for these purposes. I think you guys may have missed what I was trying to communicate. The forum would be for cryptography in general. Things like how ciphers work, tools to help you crack codes and so and so forth. I specifically mention the idea of this forum to not be used for specific caches, but rather a place where people can bring new ideas to the table. It would not be for people to ask for help on solving someone else's cache. The name of the forum would not be "Get help solving puzzle caches" it would something like "Cryptography, the ins and outs of coding" or something to that extent.

 

I don't think that anyone misunderstands your idea of how the forum should be used, they are just expressing their opinions of how people would try to use/abuse the forum. As was noted, we get one or two new posts a week asking for specific help. If you create a forum dedicated to puzzles, despite all of the warnings, you'll just be inviting more of those types of threads. More than once, someone has asked for help on a specific puzzle and before the moderator could react, someone else posted the solution. One wanted help and the other wanted to help, but neither had any idea the the forum wasn't the proper place to do it. If you create a forum specific to puzzles, and then say, "but don't do this", it will happen anyway and it will be a nightmare to moderate.

Firstly, I want to apologize. I re-read what I wrote and see that it sounds a bit snarky. Not at all my intention. I just want to make sure you understand me clearly is all. I see that you do now. So I am sorry for assuming you all did not.

 

Okay, as far as inviting more people to post for help, I agree that it may increase. However, it might actually help the moderators with this particular issue. Let me explain. If someone were to come to these forums for help on a puzzle, and my proposed forum existed, I believe that you are correct in assuming they would post there (or at least I would agree). No matter what people will always ask for help. But if we could sublimely steer where those kinds of posts will be made then moderating them and closing them before responses are made might actually be easier.

 

Just a theory, though.

 

Now in regards to the forum title being too general. I was simply providing an example. It certainly could be anything, more specific, less specific. I was drawing a contrast between the title inviting people to post for help, and the forum being place for creativity and information. And besides that, I don't think you will lose the context of Geocaching as long as it is on the Groundspeak forums. After all there are already a lot of "unrelated" or out-of-context forums here. Take GPS & Technology, or GPS garage sale for example. Those are both related to GPS units which are not inherently related to Geocaching except for the fact that they are on the Groundspeak forums. This would be no different, only in regards to cryptography and codes.

[+a1elec]

well I would vote for a forum related to cryptology and it would be nice to talk openly about some of the puzzles using different variations on a particular code as the specifics could not be used in the discussion the methodology of solving along with possible methods of attack of the cipher would be of great benefit to more that just the person asking the original question and as such could take someone from working alone to solve a cipher to a group of like minded people solving the particular puzzle as a group of fellow caches contacting by email and not using the forum to actually discuss the specifics but more of the methods they apply and the processes they use to solve similar ciphers.

 

only a 1 cent worth but I believe that we as a group could make it work.

 

what is the consensus

[7rxc]

Well... I don't think that we really need a Cryptology forum. There are tons of such sites on the web. Just do a little searching on the word. Wikipedia has good articles in general and on specific forms. Discussion groups are out there as well, probably by very knowledgable people.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like good Crypto's. I like a good puzzle in general.

 

Many times the 'help with a puzzle' requests come from both placer and from potential finders. I like the 'is this possible to solve at all' format. There have been several times the question was asked on the forums and not challenged regardless of specifics.

However the issue of the method and solution was never discussed. The question was as stated and the response was one of the following.

A. YES it can,

B. NO it cannot (with a generalized reason ie. bad layout etc.),

C. Haven't managed it yet, but looks feasible,

D. Looks bad, but might work.

 

This gives nothing away, and in a few of the Beta Test cases (from the owner) has either fixed problems after or avoided problems before publication. The hider gets a valid cache puzzle and the potential hider knows that it is possible to solve. Add the usual comments on Difficulty level (the puzzle part) and it is beneficial to the game.

 

I think that more Puzzle CO's need to have someone (several) people vet their caches completely. This could also apply to other caches in terms of having someone try to find it as part of the pre publication process. The number of simple typos out there is high in some cases. Reviewers simply can't check every thing on every cache, so there is the vetting process.

 

However, IF enough people want to discuss things like applying frequency counts and extracting keys for solving a cache, then maybe it would go. But any mention of specifics regarding caches would have to be moderated closely. That I don't think would interest me at all. Vetting of course is some fun, but one person can't do it all, but I sometimes like to peek at the cache worthy of needing it! There have been several fun ones on here over the last few years, really sneaky but not that hard, and a few that were really tough, including a few I'm still working on but frustrated myself!

 

Doug 7rxc

[+The Rat]

As a crypto-nut I am in favor of anything that promotes the fun of ciphers and codes, but I don't think a separate forum for that here would do that. A well-designed puzzle cache should do that on the cache page and in the logs. I have many cipher-related puzzle caches active or archived, and I try always to provide either an explanation of how the cipher works or a link to a place that explains it, like the American Cryptogram Association (ACA) Cipher Types pages. I agree, too, that way too many puzzle caches these days consist mainly of hiding the coordinates in some obscure way rather than providing a puzzle to solve. Another of my pet peeves is the "research puzzle" where you are given instructions on what to look up (e.g. someone's birth date or historical data). They aren't really puzzles, but at least those are solvable and do teach you something you didn't know, even if it's something you have no interest in. But for those interested in solving cipher and code related puzzles, I highly recommend the ACA.