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Does anyone really ask for CITY's permission?


sumi1795

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So I'm trying to place my first cache in a city park across from my school. There are 4 caches already in the park, so I figured it would be a piece of cake to get permission, especially since I teach at the school and we'll be using the cache for educational purposes. I called the "land-owner" of the park, the City of Garland, TX, only to find that they frown on geocaches being placed in their parks. He said that I could place it there if it was temporary, but would have to remove it within 6 months. I wrote an email back asking if this was a law or official ordinance of the city, or if it was a norm that has been adopted. The representative said that it was not a law, but because they had found a geocache in a park near some rare plants, and those plants were being trampled by cachers, they had decided against geocaching in Garland parks. I provided a number of reasons why they should reconsider and he told me that he would bring it up in the next council meeting. He also thanked me for asking permission and stated that I was the only one who had ever asked him in the years he had been the parks and recreation rep for the city.

 

My question is, am I the only one that has ever asked for permission for a park hide or does everyone think that since it's city property that the land is public and fair game? I sure hope not. Our community needs to work with the city governments, not covertly doing end-arounds on them.

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...they had found a geocache in a park near some rare plants, and those plants were being trampled by cachers, they had decided against geocaching in Garland parks.

 

Herein is the gist of the matter.

 

Those who do not obtain permission, run the risk -- as you can see -- of ruining it for everyone else.

Whether or not you would be "the only one" to get permission, it is paramount (IMO) that you do so.

 

I would however, suggest using the email ONLY to find out who you should contact. Actual contact itself should always (if possible) be face-to-face. It allows them to see just how serious you are and how up-front and forthwith you can be. They can ask questions (yes, they'll have them) and you should be prepared to answer. If you cannot, then get the answer and get it to them -- an email would suffice for the response. The impersonal "initial contact" email to the responsible person should be a last resort.

 

Think about it... if I emailed you and wanted to use your flowerbed for hunting nightcrawlers, would you let me?

Maybe I should just do it without getting permission.

Edited by Gitchee-Gummee
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While Federal, State, and Regional-managed land nearly always have a geocaching policy and some kind of approval of placement, Counties and Cities seem less likely to (though some of them definitely do). As a result, unless the caching community is aware there is a policy they tend to assume there isn't one and don't bother asking permission for such areas.

 

As geocaching's popularity and awareness continues to grow, I wonder if it's time to start requiring explicit permission more often - or at least have the reviewers be more informed the policies of counties and larger cities. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Reviewer policy for parks amounts to "If we don't know they require approval then we assume they don't". It might be better for reviewers in each state to have a list of every county and the larger cities and know explicitly if they have a policy or not. This would require alot of contacts made by the geo-community (probably the various regional caching organizations, who would pass the info on to their local Reviewer), but would probably be better for the game in the long run.

 

Right now if you need to know who to contact for permission (if anyone), you usually have to hope for an existing contact to note who gave permission, hope the info is on the Reviewer's profile page, or contact your local reviewer. It would be nice if geocaching.com had a map for each state where you could mouseover or click on a county on the map and it would give you a listing of permission contacts relevant to that county.

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Right now if you need to know who to contact for permission (if anyone), you usually have to hope for an existing contact to note who gave permission, hope the info is on the Reviewer's profile page, or contact your local reviewer. It would be nice if geocaching.com had a map for each state where you could mouseover or click on a county on the map and it would give you a listing of permission contacts relevant to that county.

 

This information is much needed, in my opinion. One of the barriers for many people seeking out permission is not knowing who to contact. We've got a reviewer who's pretty good, in that, if it's an area that has a geocaching policy, she'll send you a copy of the policy when you submit a cache. Often no explicit permission is required in these areas, as long as you follow their rules.

 

Not all areas have geocaching policies, unfortunately.

 

One time I was placing a cache in an area that didn't have any caches. It was also a sensitive area. I got ahold of a volunteer who helps keep up the area. She gave me some helpful information i.e. there was one area with rare plants and butteflies to be avoided. I'm glad I got this information. I would have felt bad if I'd put a cache there and found out later after damage was done.

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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First of all, I think I've finally run out of fingers and toes to count the number of people who have started similar threads saying they asked a municipality for permission to place a cache in a City or Town Park in the USA, there are existing caches there, and they find out no one asked permission for them. I do very much appreciate you and those other people asking permission though.

 

At the end of the day though, I'm an old-timer, and subscribe to the often mentioned in the old days, but rarely now, "Frisbee Rule". Could you play Frisbee in this park without asking for permission? Then it's OK to place a cache there without asking for permission. This of course assumes NO LOCAL GEOCACHING POLICY by the Parks department, or other entity in charge. So we'll just say those other people used the Frisbee rule. :lol: I know I've used it, gosh, about 40 times.

 

EDIT: Note, I've hidden about 30 caches on other Geocaching websites, besides the 49 here.

Edited by Mr.Yuck
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Right now if you need to know who to contact for permission (if anyone), you usually have to hope for an existing contact to note who gave permission, hope the info is on the Reviewer's profile page, or contact your local reviewer. It would be nice if geocaching.com had a map for each state where you could mouseover or click on a county on the map and it would give you a listing of permission contacts relevant to that county.

 

Unfortunately, most cities have such a rotation of people in their various departments that it would be a huge hassle (and waste of time) trying to keep up on the changes.

 

I work for my city and even had to jump through hoops in order to get a GeoCache approved. And I work in the next building over!

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I wonder if municipalities are concerned with "suspicious" packages being placed on their domain? With everyone worrying about homeland security, drugs included, it may raise an eyebrow if people are "sneaking" around looking for suspicious packages?

 

The above is just a though for discussion.

 

But in reality, I can understand the concern that a municipality may have a problem with people disturbing natural areas with undue foot traffic. But in the same breath, and I've only been doing this for a VERY short time (2 caches), the folks interested in geocaching seem to be good folks out enjoying a wonderful hobby. The same folks I think are also very conscious, outdoor/environment loving people. That may be the majority, but I'm sure with just about anything, there are the minority who may not have the same intentions.

 

I haven't placed any geocaches yet, but I plan to. I don't think I'd place one without asking permission. But at the same time, you may need to educate them a little on what the hobby is about. If it IS in a sensitive area, you can always add that into the cache description.

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If it IS in a sensitive area, you can always add that into the cache description.

 

The above quote, certainly is information to be put into a cache page. However, it has been our experience that it seems so few cachers even bother reading the cache page before venturing forth.

 

One of our hides is on the opposite side of a small river from a historical structure -- intentionally placed there so as to not jeopardize the sensitive area. Parking coordinates are provided at a parking lot on the same side of the river as the cache (still within the same park). Coincidentally, there is a large mass of poison ivy nearby the cache proper (warning of such is prominently noted on the cache page as well) -- trekking to the cache from the parking coordinates takes the cachers nowhere near the noxious plants.

 

Yet, approximately every third log warns others of the poison ivy. Not too strangely, those same logs relate that one must wade across the river. Every once in a while, they will add a footnote of sorts, stating that they finally read the cache page -- after the fact.

 

Sorry, but I do not share the notion that a cache page warning of a sensitive area would be sufficient. Besides, it only takes a couple to ruin it for others, and there are plenty of "couples" out there.

 

<walks away, shaking head>

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Yep I agree with you. In general, I think people suck at following direction and paying attention to detail.

 

The same can be said about any hobby really. I'm an avid disc golfer,and we can see the same there. D-bags leaving garbage like water and sport drink bottles out on the courses.

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Right now if you need to know who to contact for permission (if anyone), you usually have to hope for an existing contact to note who gave permission, hope the info is on the Reviewer's profile page, or contact your local reviewer. It would be nice if geocaching.com had a map for each state where you could mouseover or click on a county on the map and it would give you a listing of permission contacts relevant to that county.

 

Unfortunately, most cities have such a rotation of people in their various departments that it would be a huge hassle (and waste of time) trying to keep up on the changes.

 

Even if it wasn't a specific contact person, it would be great to know "contact parks department for permission" even if you don't know for certain who to contact. Also, it would be good to know which counties are known to not require permission so you don't spend time trying to track down someone for permission you don't need.

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I have a cache that is a walking tour/puzzle of my town culminating with a cache container hidden at the local historical society. It took almost six weeks of letters, emails and phone calls but I got all my permissions in place before I placed my cache.

 

I spoke with the society's president who then brought up the idea at their monthly meeting and the cache placement at their location was approved. In fact they were very excited about it because it's the town's 200th anniversary next year and they thought it would make a good tie-in.

 

I spoke to the people at the mayor's office who said I needed to write a letter of request to the mayor for the cache and metnion in there about the liablility issue. They were concerned that someone would sue the town if they got hurt while geocaching. I reminded them that they allow citizens and visitors to walk around freely without signing liability waivers so this would be no different. I got permission from the mayor's office to have the tour and place the cache container (since the society property is considered town property).

 

Then I spoke to the town police department to let them know that I had approval from the mayor and the society and to expect occasional visitors to town that might be walking around with electronic gear and near the society when it was closed. That was a good idea since a cacher mentioned to me that they were stopped by a town police officer who asked what they were doing wandering around. They told him they were caching and the officer was ok with it because he had the notice about it at the office.

 

I also sent a letter to the neighbors next to the society since their back yard borders the area the cache is in just to let them know what was going on.

 

It was a lot of work to get all of that in place but I feel much better that I did so that I know no one will have a problem with the cache at any stage. I also relayed in the cache description that the town/mayor gave approval and that the police and neighbors are aware of what's going on that way the cacher can feel more comfortable doing the cache without having to worry about using stealth.

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Unfortunately, most cities have such a rotation of people in their various departments that it would be a huge hassle (and waste of time) trying to keep up on the changes.

 

I don't think it's important that the person who is in charge of approving caches changes. Just find out the department in the town that grants the approval. There is a town one over from where I live that has a wonderful park with a long walking trail and no caches. I emailed the town secretary and asked which department I would contact to get approval for cache placement. She gave me the department and person's contact info. Because I have some other things going on right now, I might not get around to requesting permission for these caches until spring. But now I have the information about which department to write to and which person to contact. I can verify that the person in that department is the same person I was told (by checking the town's website), and if they are not there in the spring I can see who holds the same office and write to them.

 

I think a lot of people make getting permission out to be more of a big deal than it has to be. It does take a little time to find out who to contact and then set up an appointment to meet with them and explain what geocaching is and what the plans for your cache are. But everyone we have received permission from was not only ok with it, they were quite excited about it.

 

I figure, you take the time to plan the location, get the coordinates, make the listing and create your cache container. What is the big deal to devote a little more time to get the proper permissions so that all those other things you did aren't wasted when the town/park/etc take them down for not asking permission. Also consider the person looking for the cache. If permission wasn't granted, they might get in trouble for being some place they weren't supposed to be. Make it easy on the people you are placing this cache for and get permission then mention in your listing that permission was granted so that they can feel comfortable doing the search.

Edited by timbee&suebee
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The best way to get permission, is to inform them on what you plan to do, describe what will happen, and then ask them if they have any input or concerns. Follow their advice, but do not use the word "permission" during the process, as they tend to imagine that you are implying that they will assume liability. As long as you communicate your intentions, and listen to what they may be worried about, you should be fine. Make sure to provide them with a phone number and email address.

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I do actually get permission from the cities I place them in, but that process was a whole long story in itself which I won't go into here.

I got permission from one city to place caches in the parks. Well I didn't exactly place them in the parks. They're in the city "park"ing lots. Kind of walking a thin line there.

I did have one cache in a park. It was in a stone wall, but when people started removing the rocks I archived it. So then I decided to put one in a tree in the park, but noticed people were breaking branches off this nicely shaped specimen tree looking for the cache. I archived that. So I put one near a garden. When it went missing I went to replace it and noticed the mulch around the flowers looked like it had been dug through as if someone thought the cache might be buried..er..covered (we don't bury things here) with the mulch. I archived it. So you can see why they ended up in the parking lots. These are all very good reasons why you should check on your caches frequently, especially in well kept parks.

 

My girlfriend's policy is if there is a cache/letterbox in the area then the person who put it there must have gotten permission and so it must be okay. Do you see a flaw in her logic? :rolleyes:

Edited by Luckless
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This is all helpful information. Thanks for the input. I can't imagine why this wouldn't fit into the "Getting Started" forum as newbies need to know how and who to contact for placing their Geocaches, but I see the logic in placing it in a more general one.

 

I've got another twist to this... there are thousands of caches located on other various "public" lands, light skirts, bus stops, etc. Would I ask the same person in the city for permission? I wouldn't think so, since they are not really a part of the "Parks". Who then do I contact? As a relatively new cacher (only 200 finds and no hides), I would think that there should be an instructional piece dedicated to getting permissions on this website. I haven't seen one.

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I got permission from our towns parks department to place our cache and it was a good thing too. Once I got permission, my two boys and I got started on putting the cache together. A day later, I checked the map and someone just placed a geocache in that same park :(.

 

I emailed the owner of that new geocache explaining our intention and that I had already received permission from the city to place it. He replied that he didn't get permission for his geocache and agreed to promptly removed it to allow ours to be placed :).

 

So for us, not only was it the right thing to do, it also paid off in allowing our cache to be placed :D.

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I got permission from our towns parks department to place our cache and it was a good thing too. Once I got permission, my two boys and I got started on putting the cache together. A day later, I checked the map and someone just placed a geocache in that same park :(.

 

I emailed the owner of that new geocache explaining our intention and that I had already received permission from the city to place it. He replied that he didn't get permission for his geocache and agreed to promptly removed it to allow ours to be placed :).

 

So for us, not only was it the right thing to do, it also paid off in allowing our cache to be placed :D.

Wow.. that was really nice of nice of him to removed it so you can have that spot. I know I would done it. I would even give up a few of my spots I got now if anyone want to place a cache there.

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I received permission to place a cache at a historic site that is city owned and now they want me to meet with them about putting together a series of caches to promote tourism in the area. They even asked me to make a presentation to a state wide organization next month about geocaching and with ties to tourism. I also received permission from our State Park Superintendent to place caches in the state park (there were some already there when I asked) and he was very supportive and to thank them we held a CITO there in the spring.

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Of my three hides one is adopted and the other two are on a very popular, cache heavy, hiking trail system.

 

My adopted cache is placed in a nature reserve near a highway rest stop. After my new container was stolen I started to wonder if the land manager (a local college) may have caught wind of it and removed it. After a few phone calls I found the right person and was informed they were okay with the cache being there, and the lady actually seemed interested in the game.

 

With the two caches on the hiking trails I just assumed they were permitted to be there because of all the others. Now I'm starting to second guess that. My instinct tells me it's probably okay but not having direct permission is starting to bug me.

 

I just sent out an email inquiring about permission. Hopefully I won't have to hike up the mountain to get my caches out of there :ph34r:

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Well, it looks like one of my hiking trail caches is okay but the other is in an area the land manager doesn't want people hiking in.

 

Knowing this now, I'm planning on archiving the listing and removing the container very soon. I don't know if the reviewer will take action on the other caches in the area or not as there are at least four more that I'm aware of.

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Well, it looks like one of my hiking trail caches is okay but the other is in an area the land manager doesn't want people hiking in.

 

Knowing this now, I'm planning on archiving the listing and removing the container very soon. I don't know if the reviewer will take action on the other caches in the area or not as there are at least four more that I'm aware of.

 

There's a hiking trail that they don't want people hiking on? :blink:

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Long ago someone in our group got blanket permission. If approached now the official in charge may not know that was the policy and say that they have never been asked.

 

In your situation I would volunteer to become the contact between the parks and the local geocachers. Explain that there policy is ineffective because the right people (the reviewers) don't know about. Also set that positive tone. Let them know that pretty much every geocacher wants to work within the rules and that the rare plant incident was probably an honest mistake (I know I couldn't identify a rare plant). The 6 month max is really the opposite of cache permanence. Most parks have a 1 or 2 year permit that you can reapply for so the cache could last a decade if you're active and it doesn't cause any damage to that area. See if you can work with them to set a policy that is good for Geocachers and good for the parks. More and more parks are working with Geocachers and getting positive results.

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Well, it looks like one of my hiking trail caches is okay but the other is in an area the land manager doesn't want people hiking in.

 

Knowing this now, I'm planning on archiving the listing and removing the container very soon. I don't know if the reviewer will take action on the other caches in the area or not as there are at least four more that I'm aware of.

 

There's a hiking trail that they don't want people hiking on? :blink:

From what I've learned the area is used for bowhunting tours or classes so that's why they don't want people hiking there. It's a shame hiking isn't allowed when hunting season is over because it's a nice area but it's their land, they make the rules.
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I have asked permission from two Park & Rec departments and they both LOVED the idea. I also let them know where the cache was placed so that they could let me know if there was any problem with the location, and so that if park workers stumbled upon it, they would know what it was.

You are best to ask permission since some parks allow and some don't. From what I've heard, Washington State doesn't allow them in the state parks, but I bet there are still some around ;)

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First of all, I think I've finally run out of fingers and toes to count the number of people who have started similar threads saying they asked a municipality for permission to place a cache in a City or Town Park in the USA, there are existing caches there, and they find out no one asked permission for them. I do very much appreciate you and those other people asking permission though.

 

At the end of the day though, I'm an old-timer, and subscribe to the often mentioned in the old days, but rarely now, "Frisbee Rule". Could you play Frisbee in this park without asking for permission? Then it's OK to place a cache there without asking for permission. This of course assumes NO LOCAL GEOCACHING POLICY by the Parks department, or other entity in charge. So we'll just say those other people used the Frisbee rule. :lol: I know I've used it, gosh, about 40 times.

 

EDIT: Note, I've hidden about 30 caches on other Geocaching websites, besides the 49 here.

 

+1. I have lived by the Frisbee rule.

 

Personally, I have never been a good salesperson. Most people look at me oddly when I talk about geocaching. I think I would do more harm then good to the activity if I contacted City Hall. I hope that the Reviewers in my area have all the necessary information about permission guidelines for parks. I'm also thankful for our local geocaching associations who volunteer their services and are better at explaining geocaching to officials then I would be.

 

does everyone think that since it's city property that the land is public

I have assumed that city/municipal parks are public.

Edited by L0ne R
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Also consider the person looking for the cache. If permission wasn't granted, they might get in trouble for being some place they weren't supposed to be.

 

A couple of weeks ago I was in a park looking for a cache (fantastic well crafted and disguised cache btw). I was crouched down at the cache site admiring the handy work when a small motorcyle passed. Then it u-turned and stopped in front of me. It was a police officer. I had no idea if this cache had permission (likely not). He asked what I was doing and I showed him the geocache and let him know I was geocaching. We had a nice conversation about the cache and the activity and then he went on his way.

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