FTF Hogs

8.4k · October 3, 2012

Here, read this very short story by Kurt Vonnegut.

I rest my case.

Funny, I once found a cache (rather challenging) called Handicapper General.

I/we weren't FTF though.

Kurt really knows how to cut through the crap and get to the point, doesn't he?

Ya know, I bet many of the folks who endlessly whine about FTF hogs will read that story and not see how it applies to geocaching. :anibad:

8.4k · October 3, 2012

Here, read this very short story by Kurt Vonnegut.

I rest my case.

Funny, I once found a cache (rather challenging) called Handicapper General.

I/we weren't FTF though.

Kurt really knows how to cut through the crap and get to the point, doesn't he?

Ya know, I bet many of the folks who endlessly whine about FTF hogs will read that story and not see how it applies to geocaching. :anibad:

2k · October 3, 2012

Track and field is a competitive sport.

Geocaching is not.

Where have you been? :lostsignal:

2k · October 3, 2012

I have read through this thread and it still puzzles me as to what the motivation is that drives the people that chase 'FTF's. I hear the reference to 'beating the competition' but surely that really just means the very minority group in an area that pursues that aspect of geocaxching.

I know what you mean! I've never understood people that try to come in first in track and field events. I hear the reference to 'beating the competition', but surely that really just means the very minority group in an area that like to come in first.

As it happens, in my area I'd say just about any cacher would try for FTF if they had the chance, so it might make more sense to ask why there are so many lazy people in your area that only a very minority group are willing to try.

So is anyone who doesn't try out for track and field, or any sports competition "lazy"?

How about "uninterested"?

I know a lot of people who really don't care about FTF. In fact I'd be willing to bet the number of people who don't care about being FTF far surpasses the number who care.

Then there are those who are out making a living, raising a family or busy with creating their own business, taking care of ill parents, etc. etc. that cannot consider such a game as important enough to drop their responsibilities and run out the door on a whim. That is not lazy.

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested? Obviously on some level FTF means something to them. The real people who don't care about FTF never have or will post on an FTF thread, the rest are phonies.

You can recognize the absurdity of asking others to give you a handout without caring much about what would be handed out. So I wouldn't say anyone posting here claiming not to care about FTF is a phonie.

BTW, while I don't actively seek them out, the occasional blank log is nice.

*** stupid autocorrect

Edited October 3, 2012 by GeoBain

6.1k · October 3, 2012

BTW, while I don't actively seek them out, the occasional black log is nice.

Not really. Try eating more fiber.

2k · October 3, 2012

BTW, while I don't actively seek them out, the occasional black log is nice.

Not really. Try eating more fiber.

Writing on a phone is not the easiest thing to do

5.6k · October 3, 2012

I've never understood people that try to come in first in track and field events. I hear the reference to 'beating the competition', but surely that really just means the very minority group in an area that like to come in first.

Track and field is a competitive sport.

Geocaching is not.

Bad analogy.

It's called irony.

Face it, the FTF race is a competitive side game. Actually, there are competitive aspects to much of geocaching, so while it is not a competition, it is competitive.

7.5k · October 3, 2012

So is anyone who doesn't try out for track and field, or any sports competition "lazy"?

No, of course not. That's the point. People that don't compete aren't lazy, and people that do compete aren't psychos.

Track and field is a competitive sport.

Geocaching is not.

Bad analogy.

The analogy was track and field vs. FTF hunting. The related analogy for geocaching would be jogging, the non-competitive version of track and field.

Of course, as I'm sure you're aware, in our area, at least, FTF hunting isn't any more competitive than a friendly game of cards, something else a lot of people enjoy without anyone feeling the need to question their sanity.

October 3, 2012

I don't have a lot of finds,(I enjoy the more secluded ones) though I have a few FTFs. I was FTF on this cache and it's the one I remember most, I didn't even go looking for it- it happened to be loaded in my unit and happened to stop near it. I was amazed to find I was the first and it had been there nearly a year to be found.

Its the game others may want to play. If I get one great...if someone wants to get every new one first- go for it, it's just not my deal.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Pontoffel Pock

14k · October 3, 2012

...Then there are those who are out making a living, raising a family or busy with creating their own business, taking care of ill parents, etc. etc. that cannot consider such a game as important enough to drop their responsibilities and run out the door on a whim. That is not lazy.

I generally agree with your post, but not this statement. I work a full time job. I have 4 kids. In the evenings, I help my wife with her home based business. Yet I still manage to get a FTF every once in awhile. I am not a FTF "hound" by any means, but i do get them every couple of months or so. People who don't get FTF don't get them because they don't try (or don't try hard enough).d be.

Fair enough. However, if someone doesn't try, or even doesn't try hard enough to get a FTF, they might still like to find a blank log some time but it has nothing to do with being lazy. To me, it's primarily a matter of priorities. I'm not suggesting at all that you're priorities are out of wack but in addition to a full time job and a busy family life some people actually have other hobbies? Some people might prioritize they're prefer their daily activities such that they put in a full day at work in a job they enjoy, drop off and pick up their child at school, or train for a marathon rather than run out and try and find a cache before everyone else.

5.3k · October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours
Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs
Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

2.8k · October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Roman!

October 3, 2012

I JUST got a cache published...lets see what bast*rd FTF hog gets it first! LOL :laughing: (just kidding)

But seriously I would expect that if someone had all the caches in an area found, and a new one popped up, that it may be a race against their friends. I know you can get alerts sent to you for new placements, do some sleep with there phone on just in case?- just wondering.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Pontoffel Pock

5.3k · October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

Oh, my. That logic is so bad it makes my head hurt. There is actually a name for that logical fallacy: it is a form of modus tollens.

You are asserting that since not all bad behavior from geocachers is a result of the FTF race, then none of the bad behavior of geocachers can be a result of the FTF race.

Sorry, but that is Just Plain Wrong.

2k · October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

Oh, my. That logic is so bad it makes my head hurt. There is actually a name for that logical fallacy: it is a form of modus tollens.

You are asserting that since not all bad behavior from geocachers is a result of the FTF race, then none of the bad behavior of geocachers can be a result of the FTF race.

Sorry, but that is Just Plain Wrong.

But he has a point. I've seen more damage from missing containers than I have from FTF races.

October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

Oh, my. That logic is so bad it makes my head hurt. There is actually a name for that logical fallacy: it is a form of modus tollens.

You are asserting that since not all bad behavior from geocachers is a result of the FTF race, then none of the bad behavior of geocachers can be a result of the FTF race.

Sorry, but that is Just Plain Wrong.

Sorry, I think you are drawing the wrong inference from his assertion. I think he is asserting that since not all bad behavior from geocachers is a result of the FTF race then some of the bad behavior is not a result of the FTF race.

5.3k · October 3, 2012

But he has a point. I've seen more damage from missing containers than I have from FTF races.

But we are not discussing missing containers in this thread, are we?

That's a fallacy called "changing the subject."

The question was, "why do some people who do not care about FTFs still dislike the FTF game" not "is the FTF game the worst thing in geocaching?"

I answered the question. Roman! then tried to change the question.

You may or may not agree with the reasons for the answer to the question, but it is no longer valid to assert that the question has not been answered.

14k · October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

It looks like you've read fizzymagic's argument this but apparently still don't understand it.

Just addressing one of the examples issues, yes, some geocachers will enter a park after hours to find a cache. However, the FTF game provides an incentive to enter the park after hours that doesn't exist once the cache has been found. I suspect that nobody had done a comprehensive scientific study comparing the number of geocachers entering parks after hours, but logically if a side game provides an incentive that doesn't exist if people didn't play that game, it would reasonable to conclude that the incentive would lead to more people breaking the law.

6.1k · October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

Oh, my. That logic is so bad it makes my head hurt. There is actually a name for that logical fallacy: it is a form of modus tollens.

You are asserting that since not all bad behavior from geocachers is a result of the FTF race, then none of the bad behavior of geocachers can be a result of the FTF race.

Sorry, but that is Just Plain Wrong.

He's pointing out that poor behaviour is not limited to FTF races, and can be found in all forms of caching. I don't see any assertion of the sort. Plus there are plenty of legal FTFers every day.

Geocaching IS a competitive sport to many, but not all. Many profiles have find counts and FTFs listed. Just because that you don't compete does that mean that it is not a competitive sport.

2.8k · October 3, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

It looks like you've read fizzymagic's argument this but apparently still don't understand it.

Just addressing one of the examples issues, yes, some geocachers will enter a park after hours to find a cache. However, the FTF game provides an incentive to enter the park after hours that doesn't exist once the cache has been found. I suspect that nobody had done a comprehensive scientific study comparing the number of geocachers entering parks after hours, but logically if a side game provides an incentive that doesn't exist if people didn't play that game, it would reasonable to conclude that the incentive would lead to more people breaking the law.

Some, not all, FTF hounds will do what fizzy said hence all FTF hounds get bashed yet some, not all, cachers not going after FTFs do these thing hence should not all Geocachers get bashed based on how you treat FTF hounds?

Let's take a new cache in a park, it creates an incentive to enter the park after its closed for an FTF up until its found, wether someone will or won't is a different story.

After the FTF the cache provides an incentive to any cacher to enter after dark for it's entire life, I'm sure many cachers have show up at a park cache after posted hours and since they were in the area decided to enter the park to find it in fact I'd bet more people enter a park after hours to find a found cache than to get an FTF on a daily basis.

Does the FTF create an extra incentive? Yes it does but either you eliminate all incentives which means removing the cache or you accept both. Criticizing one and not the other is hypocritical.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Roman!

5.3k · October 3, 2012

Some, not all, FTF hounds will do what fizzy said hence all FTF hounds get bashed yet some, not all, cachers not going after FTFs do these thing hence should not all Geocachers get bashed based on how you treat FTF hounds?

I officially give up.

2.8k · October 3, 2012

Some, not all, FTF hounds will do what fizzy said hence all FTF hounds get bashed yet some, not all, cachers not going after FTFs do these thing hence should not all Geocachers get bashed based on how you treat FTF hounds?

I officially give up.

Sucks having your own logic used against you :lol:

7.8k · October 3, 2012

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

Since it has pointed out that non-FTF hounds also do these things, is it your position that FTF hounds tend to do these things more often? There aren't any numbers, but you may indeed be correct if that's the case.

I'd like to ask another question, if I may: If FTF hounds don't do the above, or any other obviously objectionable/illegal behaviour, do you have any problem with them competing for FTF? With the rare exception, the FTF hounds around these parts don't do these things, and FTF races are safe, legal, social, friendly competitions.

2.8k · October 4, 2012

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

Since it has pointed out that non-FTF hounds also do these things, is it your position that FTF hounds tend to do these things more often? There aren't any numbers, but you may indeed be correct if that's the case.

I'd like to ask another question, if I may: If FTF hounds don't do the above, or any other obviously objectionable/illegal behaviour, do you have any problem with them competing for FTF? With the rare exception, the FTF hounds around these parts don't do these things, and FTF races are safe, legal, social, friendly competitions.

Fizzy states he has a problem with those behaviors but even though its a small minority of FTFers that do them he bashes all FTFers.

On the other hand many other cachers perform the same actions for a variety of other reasons but that does not seem to bother him.

My only conclusion can be that he does not have issues with the actions but rather with FTFers.

The only way to eliminate these actions entirely is to ban geocaches.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Roman!

7.5k · October 4, 2012

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

I have absolutely no objection to you pillorying FTF hounds that do the first and the last. To go back to my brilliant analogy, that would be like punishing track and field stars for using steroids.

As for the second, I'm having a hard time seeing how you can object to a taunt based on an accomplishment you don't care about. "Nah, nah, I won the race, you lost!" "Huh? I was jogging, for heaven's sake."

5.3k · October 4, 2012

Since it has pointed out that non-FTF hounds also do these things, is it your position that FTF hounds tend to do these things more often? There aren't any numbers, but you may indeed be correct if that's the case.

Yes, that is my assertion. I have experienced several instances of such behavior personally.

I'd like to ask another question, if I may: If FTF hounds don't do the above, or any other obviously objectionable/illegal behaviour, do you have any problem with them competing for FTF? With the rare exception, the FTF hounds around these parts don't do these things, and FTF races are safe, legal, social, friendly competitions.

I have no problem with a little friendly FTF competition, as long as people behave properly. Heck, I keep track of my own FTFs and have some challenges with myself about them (average difficulty, time since the cache was hidden, etc.)

The FTFs I find interesting are those on caches that have gone unfound for some time and/or are very difficult. Being the first to lift a lamp-post skirt doesn't seem very much of an accomplishment to me, but whatever floats their boats is fine by me.

If FTF hounds would geocache in a considerate manner (and that would include not bringing their FTF quarrels to the forums), I would have no problem with them at all.

1.4k · October 4, 2012

Fizzy states he has a problem with those behaviors but even though its a small minority of FTFers that do them he bashes all FTFers.

On the other hand many other cachers perform the same actions for a variety of other reasons but that does not seem to bother him.

My only conclusion can be that he does not have issues with the actions but rather with FTFers.

The only way to eliminate these actions entirely is to ban geocaches.

Since as far back as I can remeber Fizzy has always has bashed FTFers I think he may have just been 2nd to find one to many times.

6.1k · October 4, 2012

I just checked the state page for the area Fizzy lives in for the FTF logs on the most recent new 50 caches found and I didn't see any of that behaviour characterized. If being a FTF hound is known to be hazardous to the state of California cachers, there should be some documentation to back it up in greater amounts than 2%.

2k · October 4, 2012

But he has a point. I've seen more damage from missing containers than I have from FTF races.

But we are not discussing missing containers in this thread, are we?

That's a fallacy called "changing the subject."

The question was, "why do some people who do not care about FTFs still dislike the FTF game" not "is the FTF game the worst thing in geocaching?"

I answered the question. Roman! then tried to change the question.

You may or may not agree with the reasons for the answer to the question, but it is no longer valid to assert that the question has not been answered.

You stated why some continue to bash FTF hounds even though they are not interested in the game.

Roman pointed out that others are guilty of the same sins.

I assert that the your reasons for disliking the FTF race are spotty. I realize you said SOME FTF engage in activities that affect ALL geocachers. But there are a LOT of geocachers not engaged in the FTF race that engage in the very activities you described which do more damage to the sport that FTF hounds.

I've already mentioned that I see more damage from missing caches than from FTF hounds. But there are a lot of people who prefer to seek caches at night that violate park hours. There are tons of cachers that engage in unsafe activities. And I'm not talking about rappelling down cliffs or scuba or other activities that are dangerous but are commonly performed safely.

I'm talking about tresspassing onto off limit structures in the middle of an icy night. I'm talking about people sticking their hands in devices with live electricity. I'm talking about people walking aimlessly watching a gps screen and twisting an ankle or speeding along a power trail in the middle of the desert.

The fact that SOME FTF hounds are guilty of some of the things you pointed out does not account for the multitudes of other FTF hounds that play that game perfectly within the limits of the law and the guidelines of geocaching.

And NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with the topic at hand which is whether or not people should "hog" all the FTF's or should they back off and give others a chance.

As far as that goes I guess it depends on whether or not you think a hand out is really something to be proud of.

2k · October 4, 2012

Since it has pointed out that non-FTF hounds also do these things, is it your position that FTF hounds tend to do these things more often? There aren't any numbers, but you may indeed be correct if that's the case.

Yes, that is my assertion. I have experienced several instances of such behavior personally.

I don't have hard numbers, but until you can show conclusively that your assertion is correct, I will have to disagree with you. Though I have seen the behavior you describe by FTF hounds, I have seen it much more often by regular cachers.

I have no problem with a little friendly FTF competition, as long as people behave properly. Heck, I keep track of my own FTFs and have some challenges with myself about them (average difficulty, time since the cache was hidden, etc.)

The FTFs I find interesting are those on caches that have gone unfound for some time and/or are very difficult. Being the first to lift a lamp-post skirt doesn't seem very much of an accomplishment to me, but whatever floats their boats is fine by me.

If FTF hounds would geocache in a considerate manner (and that would include not bringing their FTF quarrels to the forums), I would have no problem with them at all.

By and large, most FTF hounds do cache in a considerate manner; at least as considerate as most regular cachers. There are a few notable exceptions that love to come to the forums and brag. But I hold that against the individual rather than the side game.

2.8k · October 4, 2012

By and large, most FTF hounds do cache in a considerate manner; at least as considerate as most regular cachers. There are a few notable exceptions that love to come to the forums and brag. But I hold that against the individual rather than the side game.

Exactly.

Back to the OPs question, a couple weeks ago a cache was published with the request that cachers with a lot of FTFs leave it for someone else. A cacher from another country with over 200 FTFs visiting Canada for the first time found it first, cool for him and if it was my cache I'd think cool too. He was ostracized in the cache logs so much so that he deleted his found it log.

Next day the the CO releases another cache with the same request this time a person gets their first FTF, to me it's meaningless. I find the cache on day 2 and find a cacher (with lots of FTFs) that was in the area on day 1 signed the log in the back and I'm sure he was the real FTF, he just didn't want to come back so now the person that had a gimme' FTF actually doesn't have one.

This is what happens when people try to dictate how others should play.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Roman!

19k · October 4, 2012

Cooking is a competitive sport now, anything that can be ranked, rated or critiqued is a competitive sport. If you choose not to compete that's your thing but many many others will compete.

If you're referring to the reality TV "cooking" competitions... no... that is simply competition. Any cooking you might see is just the excuse to showcase the competition.

2.8k · October 4, 2012

Cooking is a competitive sport now, anything that can be ranked, rated or critiqued is a competitive sport. If you choose not to compete that's your thing but many many others will compete.

If you're referring to the reality TV "cooking" competitions... no... that is simply competition. Any cooking you might see is just the excuse to showcase the competition.

I shouldn't have used the word "sport", I have changed it. Expecting geocaching to not be a competition is unrealistic.

Cooking is a competition now, anything that can be ranked, rated or critiqued is a competition. If you choose not to compete that's your thing but many many others will compete.

October 4, 2012

Back to the OPs question, a couple weeks ago a cache was published with the request that cachers with a lot of FTFs leave it for someone else. A cacher from another country with over 200 FTFs visiting Canada for the first time found it first, cool for him and if it was my cache I'd think cool too. He was ostracized in the cache logs so much so that he deleted his found it log.

Next day the the CO releases another cache with the same request this time a person gets their first FTF, to me it's meaningless. I find the cache on day 2 and find a cacher (with lots of FTFs) that was in the area on day 1 signed the log in the back and I'm sure he was the real FTF, he just didn't want to come back so now the person that had a gimme' FTF actually doesn't have one.

This is what happens when people try to dictate how others should play.

Some time ago, a wonderful power trail series came out which now totals 135 caches. The CO did not want one person rushing through getting all the FTF, so he tried to create a system that would have them shared. Each cache page had the following info:

NOTE: As the XXXXXXXXX crew is not into FTF's, only one FTF/cacher will be recognized! For example, the first cacher to find #1 will be the FTFer and the second finder on #2 will be the FTFer for that cache and the third cacher on #3 will be the FTFer for that cache and so on. So all cachers will have a shot at an FTF in this series!! There are FTF prizes in the last cache in this series which gives the FTFer a coffee! Just use the info on the prize to obtain your coffee. Remember ONE FTF/cacher!! There will be over 100 caches in the series and thus more than 100 FTF's!

It didnt really work and ended up being kind of silly. I dont think there are more than 60 finds on any of them so I guess there are still FTF's available.

Here are two logs

So the reason for doing these in reverse is to get to the FTF quicker. 7th finder of this one. Awesome old tree. SL. TNLN. Thanks.

FTF! Umm, errr, hmm...is that Fourth or First to? Ha ha. Love the series so far. This was even a little exciting. To actually do close to 50 caches before getting one 'First'. Still work to do too!

Edited October 4, 2012 by Ma & Pa

1.1k · October 4, 2012

the good things about FTF races, is if you dont win you just say, I dont care :-)

remember at the same time to congratulate the one who beat you running there.

come on, any one who walk slow just to let others win, are lying.

and to make up your own rules,

so some people can only get a number of FTF in a day or what have you ??

that is NOT going to work !!

A trick is to puplish the series in small quantities over some days,

and use all hrs a day, this way you let different people play.

14k · October 4, 2012

Fizzy states he has a problem with those behaviors but even though its a small minority of FTFers that do them he bashes all FTFers.

On the other hand many other cachers perform the same actions for a variety of other reasons but that does not seem to bother him.

My only conclusion can be that he does not have issues with the actions but rather with FTFers.

The only way to eliminate these actions entirely is to ban geocaches.

Sorry. The "you must be jealous" card had already been played. The last last person didn't actually address the issues either.

Since as far back as I can remeber Fizzy has always has bashed FTFers I think he may have just been 2nd to find one to many times.

October 4, 2012

Last month I got a FTF om a cache that was placed one year and 2 days before. Should I have waited until someone else went for it?

I have a puzzle out that I doubt that anyone will get before winter.

I have an Earth Cache in a rough area where no one wants to go.

3.8k · October 4, 2012

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested?

I am surprised you would ask this question, since it has probably been answered a couple hundred times since you arrived in these forums. Maybe this time you will read it...

People who are not into the FTF race abject to it because some FTF hounds engage in activities that have negative impacts on all geocachers, whether they are FTF hounds or not.

Examples:

Entering parks outside of legal hours

Leaving taunting or other inappropriate content in logs

Engaging in unsafe activity in pursuit of FTFs

There. Was that clear enough for you?

Do people enter parks after hours to find a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

Do people leave inappropriate logs on caches that have been found before? Yes.

Do people engage in unsafe activities perusing a cache even if its been found before? Yes.

You should be bashing Geocaching as a whiole, not just the FTF side game.

Oh, my. That logic is so bad it makes my head hurt. There is actually a name for that logical fallacy: it is a form of modus tollens.

You are asserting that since not all bad behavior from geocachers is a result of the FTF race, then none of the bad behavior of geocachers can be a result of the FTF race.

Sorry, but that is Just Plain Wrong.

But he has a point. I've seen more damage from missing containers than I have from FTF races.

Yep, me too.

5k · October 4, 2012

Back to the OPs question, a couple weeks ago a cache was published with the request that cachers with a lot of FTFs leave it for someone else. A cacher from another country with over 200 FTFs visiting Canada for the first time found it first, cool for him and if it was my cache I'd think cool too. He was ostracized in the cache logs so much so that he deleted his found it log.

Next day the the CO releases another cache with the same request this time a person gets their first FTF, to me it's meaningless. I find the cache on day 2 and find a cacher (with lots of FTFs) that was in the area on day 1 signed the log in the back and I'm sure he was the real FTF, he just didn't want to come back so now the person that had a gimme' FTF actually doesn't have one.

This is what happens when people try to dictate how others should play.

Some time ago, a wonderful power trail series came out which now totals 135 caches. The CO did not want one person rushing through getting all the FTF, so he tried to create a system that would have them shared. Each cache page had the following info:

NOTE: As the XXXXXXXXX crew is not into FTF's, only one FTF/cacher will be recognized! For example, the first cacher to find #1 will be the FTFer and the second finder on #2 will be the FTFer for that cache and the third cacher on #3 will be the FTFer for that cache and so on. So all cachers will have a shot at an FTF in this series!! There are FTF prizes in the last cache in this series which gives the FTFer a coffee! Just use the info on the prize to obtain your coffee. Remember ONE FTF/cacher!! There will be over 100 caches in the series and thus more than 100 FTF's!

It didnt really work and ended up being kind of silly. I dont think there are more than 60 finds on any of them so I guess there are still FTF's available.

Here are two logs

So the reason for doing these in reverse is to get to the FTF quicker. 7th finder of this one. Awesome old tree. SL. TNLN. Thanks.

FTF! Umm, errr, hmm...is that Fourth or First to? Ha ha. Love the series so far. This was even a little exciting. To actually do close to 50 caches before getting one 'First'. Still work to do too!

That is just super silly. If I was the third finder on the third cache, I would not check the FTF box in my GSAK database. If I found it first, I would. As far as I know, I'm the only one keeping track of my FTFs. If I was third and the CO put a "Congrats to Don_J for FTF", I'd probably order them a remedial math book from Amazon.com.

6.7k · October 4, 2012

You want to be FTF? It's super simple. Be faster than the other guy. If you aren't gonna try to be faster then the FTF is meaningless.

October 4, 2012

My own experience of FTF Hogs/hounds/competitors in my kneck of the woods has always been extremely positive. Bearing in mind any FTFer generally accepts that they are 'Beta Testing' the cache they can often come across poor co-ordinates, poor placement outside guidelines, anomalies with puzzles or multicache stages and a whole multitude of other issues. It just comes with the territory.

I have seen a number of FTF (or First to DNF) recording their experiences within the logs and CO's very often thanking them for their information/subsequent e-mail or disabling the cache and then enabling a few days later when some amendments have been undertaken.

In my opinion these type of instance far exceed any negative behaviour.

October 4, 2012

Two words for those who want an FTF: Try Harder!

Amen!

3.6k · October 5, 2012

And heaven forbid that some cacher would presign logs and places them and submits them under a sock puppet account so they can be FTF. Oh know, that would be crazy.......

I know one guy thats doing it.

Yes and I believe that cacher maybe still doing it.

3.6k · October 5, 2012

Recently I found a bunch and I wasn't even trying hard. Most went over 24hrs in an area that should have been found earlier. But turns out that most of the local cachers are non Premium members and are not getting notifications.

3.6k · October 5, 2012

I have read through this thread and it still puzzles me as to what the motivation is that drives the people that chase 'FTF's. I hear the reference to 'beating the competition' but surely that really just means the very minority group in an area that pursues that aspect of geocaxching.

I know what you mean! I've never understood people that try to come in first in track and field events. I hear the reference to 'beating the competition', but surely that really just means the very minority group in an area that like to come in first.

As it happens, in my area I'd say just about any cacher would try for FTF if they had the chance, so it might make more sense to ask why there are so many lazy people in your area that only a very minority group are willing to try.

So is anyone who doesn't try out for track and field, or any sports competition "lazy"?

How about "uninterested"?

I know a lot of people who really don't care about FTF. In fact I'd be willing to bet the number of people who don't care about being FTF far surpasses the number who care.

Then there are those who are out making a living, raising a family or busy with creating their own business, taking care of ill parents, etc. etc. that cannot consider such a game as important enough to drop their responsibilities and run out the door on a whim. That is not lazy.

But if they are uninterested why do they spend time bashing those that are interested? Obviously on some level FTF means something to them. The real people who don't care about FTF never have or will post on an FTF thread, the rest are phonies.

You can recognize the absurdity of asking others to give you a handout without caring much about what would be handed out. So I wouldn't say anyone posting here claiming not to care about FTF is a phonie.

BTW, while I don't actively seek them out, the occasional blank log is nice.

*** stupid autocorrect

It's the same for Number cachers. The ones who are after numbers wonder why casual cachers don't find more. We all play the game differently. I compare it to fishing. There are those who are content to sit back with their line in the water all day and never catch anything, or those who have to feel that line jerk, and fight the fish on the line.

3.7k · October 5, 2012

And heaven forbid that some cacher would presign logs and places them and submits them under a sock puppet account so they can be FTF. Oh know, that would be crazy.......

I know one guy thats doing it.

Yes and I believe that cacher maybe still doing it.

Brilliant! That's given me all sorts of ideas.

1.1k · October 5, 2012

a person who is cheating to win, is not a winner, but a brainless looser

the cool thing about it is: HE ALLREADY know this.. poor person..

8.4k · October 5, 2012

Back to the OPs question, a couple weeks ago a cache was published with the request that cachers with a lot of FTFs leave it for someone else. A cacher from another country with over 200 FTFs visiting Canada for the first time found it first, cool for him and if it was my cache I'd think cool too. He was ostracized in the cache logs so much so that he deleted his found it log.

Next day the the CO releases another cache with the same request this time a person gets their first FTF, to me it's meaningless. I find the cache on day 2 and find a cacher (with lots of FTFs) that was in the area on day 1 signed the log in the back and I'm sure he was the real FTF, he just didn't want to come back so now the person that had a gimme' FTF actually doesn't have one.

This is what happens when people try to dictate how others should play.

Some time ago, a wonderful power trail series came out which now totals 135 caches. The CO did not want one person rushing through getting all the FTF, so he tried to create a system that would have them shared. Each cache page had the following info:

NOTE: As the XXXXXXXXX crew is not into FTF's, only one FTF/cacher will be recognized! For example, the first cacher to find #1 will be the FTFer and the second finder on #2 will be the FTFer for that cache and the third cacher on #3 will be the FTFer for that cache and so on. So all cachers will have a shot at an FTF in this series!! There are FTF prizes in the last cache in this series which gives the FTFer a coffee! Just use the info on the prize to obtain your coffee. Remember ONE FTF/cacher!! There will be over 100 caches in the series and thus more than 100 FTF's!

It didnt really work and ended up being kind of silly. I dont think there are more than 60 finds on any of them so I guess there are still FTF's available.

Here are two logs

So the reason for doing these in reverse is to get to the FTF quicker. 7th finder of this one. Awesome old tree. SL. TNLN. Thanks.

FTF! Umm, errr, hmm...is that Fourth or First to? Ha ha. Love the series so far. This was even a little exciting. To actually do close to 50 caches before getting one 'First'. Still work to do too!

That is just super silly. If I was the third finder on the third cache, I would not check the FTF box in my GSAK database. If I found it first, I would. As far as I know, I'm the only one keeping track of my FTFs. If I was third and the CO put a "Congrats to Don_J for FTF", I'd probably order them a remedial math book from Amazon.com.

Agreed. We are ALL now a little dumber for having been exposed to that CO's screwball logic. :rolleyes:

3.6k · October 6, 2012

And heaven forbid that some cacher would presign logs and places them and submits them under a sock puppet account so they can be FTF. Oh know, that would be crazy.......

I know one guy thats doing it.

Yes and I believe that cacher maybe still doing it.

Brilliant! That's given me all sorts of ideas.

Wouldn't be a new idea, he's been doing it for years.

And I believe he has a memory problem because he contacted me twice with the same message, like he forgot who he was writing to. Maybe he is really a bot in cachers clothing.

Edited October 6, 2012 by jellis

2.8k · October 6, 2012

And heaven forbid that some cacher would presign logs and places them and submits them under a sock puppet account so they can be FTF. Oh know, that would be crazy.......

I know one guy thats doing it.

Yes and I believe that cacher maybe still doing it.

Brilliant! That's given me all sorts of ideas.

Wouldn't be a new idea, he's been doing it for years.

And I believe he has a memory problem because he contacted me twice with the same message, like he forgot who he was writing to. Maybe he is really a bot in cachers clothing.

Well if he's showing signs of memory loss then I think it's ok to claim the FTFs as I'm sure he forgot where he hid them and had to go and find tem again.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Roman!

FTF Hogs

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