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"Discovering" tbs via the WEB?


Hikers2
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Recently had a cacher - in Germany - "discover" three of our travel bugs by finding their trackable numbers on the web! What do others think about this? I am so tempted to delete to delete those "discoveries". One of the tbs is in our personal possession - the other two have been among the "missing" for a long time.

 

I (Mrs. H2) know that "discovering" geocoins and travel bugs (especially at events) is great to make a cacher increase his/her numbers for different challenges etc. but via the web? Suppose it's kinda the same as getting puzzle answers by doing a google search - or is it?

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Thanks NOSNOW - I've just finished reading all of that link and the links within - guess I'll just go delete those three "discoveries" we received along with a friendly little note to D3R.MORPH3US who is the cacher (notice there was no mention of his name in the geocoin discussions).

 

Happy caching 'n stay safe :D

Edited by Hikers2
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Keep an eye on it. It could be that it ends up in some sort of list. I moved two from here in Germany to the US, and found out later that the previous finder had made a picture of both with visable codes. One is http://coord.info/TB335VP second is http://coord.info/TB33GEB .

 

The odd part is only one of the two gets quite a bit of discoveries, even though both codes are visable. Seems to be a Czech thing.

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I just discovered a TB online the other day.... and normally I don't 'discover them' unless the TB owner specifically wants you to (and that's a part of its goal).

 

Someone (kid) took a picture of the TB and is using it as his profile picture (with number in full view). It was his first TB and it wasn't his. I guess you could say, I was in an evil mood..... I did not feel like emailing this person to tell them. Am I suppose to be the TB police?? No..... So instead, I discovered it and said that I found it online in someones profile picture. I was hoping the TB owner would email me and ask WHO the user was....but I haven't heard a thing. I don't think anyone truely cares.....

 

If it were me....as a TB owner, I would not delete discover logs unless the person themselves posted the code online (or a photo). I would never delete a log for someone who happened to stumble across it. It's not their fault it was listed online.... and honestly, who really cares?

 

You can spend all your time worrying about all the little hairy details..... or just stop worrying about it and go caching!! Hell...I don't even check my logs from my owned caches. So, if someone is logging without signing the log book - so be it. It's riding on their conscience - not mine.

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......

I (Mrs. H2) know that "discovering" geocoins and travel bugs (especially at events) is great to make a cacher increase his/her numbers for different challenges etc. but via the web? .........

 

So that is why people discover. I really couldn't figure out why people would bother to discover. We move a lot of trackables on our trips, sometimes bringing 50 or more with us. We dont discover since it didnt seem to help the trackable, but I didnt realize that it could help the person who discovered it.

 

I found the whole discover thing a little odd. People walking around a parking lot at events taking pictures of tb numbers on vehicles, or taking a list of numbers without seeing the trackables, or going through a pile of trackables at an event writing down numbers, or visiting local TB hotels to discover trackables without taking them. And now this whole discovering on line activity. We dont discover, even when cachers show us their tattoos.

 

But I am not criticizing, because so much of what we do as geocachers is inexplicable. Such as me trying to boost MA up a NO PARKING sign on a busy street to get a cache ( two different ones without success), or taking 3 weeks to drive to our daughters place 800 miles away, etc, etc..

 

PA

Edited by Ma & Pa
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So that is why people discover. I really couldn't figure out why people would bother to discover. We move a lot of trackables on our trips, sometimes bringing 50 or more with us. We dont discover since it didnt seem to help the trackable, but I didnt realize that it could help the person who discovered it.

 

I found the whole discover thing a little odd. People walking around a parking lot at events taking pictures of tb numbers on vehicles, or taking a list of numbers without seeing the trackables, or going through a pile of trackables at an event writing down numbers, or visiting local TB hotels to discover trackables without taking them. And now this whole discovering on line activity. We dont discover, even when cachers show us their tattoos.

 

But I am not criticizing, because so much of what we do as geocachers is inexplicable. Such as me trying to boost MA up a NO PARKING sign on a busy street to get a cache ( two different ones without success), or taking 3 weeks to drive to our daughters place 800 miles away, etc, etc..

 

PA

People vary in their approach to things. Discovering at an event is one approach. However, Discovering a trackable in a cache which you choose not to move along (for whatever reason you find valid) is a different beast. That type of discover can indicate that the trackable is at that place at that point in time. Many trackables have resurfaced that way after being mishandled and mislogged. One hopes that the cacher can use some disgression in when to do it. For me it depends on what I see (mission tag etc.) in the cache or when I am online (recently placed there, or if I want a type of icon but can't help the mission at all).

 

It is all quite situational for me. You are someone else of course.

 

Doug 7rxc

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I am saddened to hear the feelings of many about discovering TBs and Geocoins, because I need a list of about 16,000 to discover. I have a challenge cache in my 10 mile radius and can't clear it until I discover more TBs than I have cache finds. I am an avid mover of TBs and have moved quite a few. I believe I have discovered about 10% of my total TBs and this is due to friend's coins, neat icons, or achievement coins. Now, because of this cache Challenge Cache, I need to locate a large list of them to discover and I think folks in general are against that. What will I do?

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Discovering can also be a way to remember TBs that you thought were fascinating or cool. Ideally, that I think would be the best use for the 'discoverer', along with providing notification of location when found in a cache. When discovery was first implemented, there was an uproar to have them not listed in the trackable's log history since ALL those discover logs can make the TB's (movement) history less interesting to read, having to wade through pages... I still think there should be a way to toggle discovery logs when viewing a TB, but oh well.

 

Like most any GC feature, it has a benefit and an ideal purpose, yet it can easily be abused or used to a competitive extreme. *shrug*

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I would never delete a log for someone who happened to stumble across it. It's not their fault it was listed online....

 

Not their fault... that they posted a bogus log? Strange logic.

 

You could say... what is to be discovered? The coin, or the code? =P

IMO, it's up to the owner of the TB to decide. If the logger doesn't say, then how might the owner know the origin of the discovery? What if the person got the code from a friend who held the it in their hand? What if they were actually at an event the CO didn't know they were at and did see the actual TB?

The only rule for posting a discovery log is that you have the private code. Really, the owner would need to decide if any discovery log is worth keeping, by their own standards for the TB. *shrug*

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I would never delete a log for someone who happened to stumble across it. It's not their fault it was listed online....

 

Not their fault... that they posted a bogus log? Strange logic.

You could say... what is to be discovered? The coin, or the code?

 

Is this a serious question? Do you think Groundspeak invented "Discovered" logs for virtual logging of trackables?

 

...then how might the owner know the origin of the discovery?

 

When 20 Europeans post virtual Discovered logs on a coin that is in the hands of someone in Washington State it is safe to say that those are "bogus" logs.

 

What if the person got the code from a friend who held the it in their hand?

 

Assuming the logger did not actually see the coin why would this entitle someone to post a "bogus" log?

 

The only rule for posting a discovery log is that you have the private code...

 

I find it strange how folks find ways to justify abuse of the Discovered log. It is very clear that intent of Discovered logs was to provide a way log a coin that you saw in person without having to use the Grabbed and Placed logs.

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Someone (kid) took a picture of the TB and is using it as his profile picture (with number in full view). It was his first TB and it wasn't his. ... I did not feel like emailing this person to tell them. Am I suppose to be the TB police??

 

I find that new cachers are often unaware what problems can be created by posting trackable secret codes. I almost always write to folks when I see they posted the tracking code or a photo of it. They are usually very responsive to gentle suggestions that those numbers should not be posted.

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Team Sagefox... I'm not in disagreement. I'm saying that there is no rule against TO's deleting discovery logs, just as there is no rule denying people posting discovery logs, presuming they have the private code.

 

What I'm saying is that it's ultimately up to the TO decide what constitutes "bogus" on their own trackable log history. There's no such thing as "bogus" in a general sense, only in the TO's mind.

 

I don't post discovery logs like your quoting of me might prompt people to infer. I only discover what I've seen or held or been permitted to log. On my own trackables, I may delete discovery logs from people who I know haven't seen mine, such as if it's always with me and this person has never been near me.

But all of that is my own decision for my own trackables.

 

You can continue to try to force the definition of "bogus" logs, but you will always have people disagreeing, and until Groundspeak themselves somehow create a new guideline that is enforceable, it will always be the TO's discretion.

 

As I also said earlier, I would very much prefer at least the option to hide discovery logs, because for the most part, they are not interesting, nor desired. They're usually more useful for the poster of the log (another reason I rarely delete them), so if I want to see the history of a TB, I may not care about scrolling through pages of discoveries.

 

Again. "Discovery" is at this point a very vague, arbitrary term, and the rules only require as minimum qualification for posting logs that you have the private code. After that, it's up to the TO - because otherwise it's an issue of etiquette. No explicit rule? The TO has final say.

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I find that new cachers are often unaware what problems can be created by posting trackable secret codes. I almost always write to folks when I see they posted the tracking code or a photo of it. They are usually very responsive to gentle suggestions that those numbers should not be posted.

Yeah, people presuming the owners are ok with the private codes being posted publicly is a Bad Thing. Hopefully they'll listen to owners' requests to remove the code from their library... :blink: (or better, ask the owners first before adding the code to the library)

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You can continue to try to force the definition of "bogus" logs, but you will always have people disagreeing,...

 

Everyone who posts a virtual log on a trackable or virtual cache KNOWS it is wrong. They are either testing the waters or pushing the envelope to see what they can get away with. That they create a mindset that justifies their actions, especially taking the position that "there is (in their view) no rule against it", is, as I said earlier, strange logic.

 

It appears that, from this viewpoint, loggers are not responsible for their actions and you are attempting to shift responsibility to the trackable owners. The implications of this go beyond what we need to get into here but it is clearly a questionable approach, at best.

 

Groundspeak came up with a convenient solution for people needing a simpler method to log trackables that they see at an event or in a cache but are not going to move to a new location. This is a fun part of the game that has a lot of entertainment value. We now have cars, t-shirts and many other fun items intended to be discovered only.

 

Virtual logging of trackables is an abuse of the intent of this Discovery mechanism. This is bogus logging (Groundspeak's terminology) just as if it were done on a virtual cache.

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I like to discover trackables that I have seen in person. I wouldn't even think of discovering from a random list or a picture.

I also move a good number of things, and I will admit that moving something has a little more satisfaction than just discovering.

 

It is not to fulfill some challenge cache, I just like to see stuff and read about it. I like the icons and the counts (but that is minor). I like to tell the owner that I saw their items, and where it was. At an event, maybe they were there too or not, it doesn't matter. If I saw it in a cache, I like to let them know it is still there and well.

 

I always like to get discover logs on my trackable, as long as I think the person actually saw the item. I don't like it when I suspect it has been added to a list or being discovered from a photo.

 

What I would like to be able to filter out though is all the 'visited' logs. They don't tell me anything, as the user doesn't type anything with the visit, I don't get a notification, it usually doesn't move far enough to be worthwhile, and it ends up being held and visited for too long.

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Logging a trackable that you have not seen in person is considered abuse if the geocaching.com system. Please don't do it.

 

I agree.

However, there is no way to definitively stop it. Anything from even the smallest "I was at the same event as you and my friend who saw it gave me the code so I could discover it" to "you provided it on a list with a bunch of others at the event, so my friend who took a picture of it gave it to me to log it" to etc/etc/etc... There will always be arguments over what constitutes "virtual" logging. Is it by the CO permission? Is it one word against another as to whether the logger actually saw the physical coin?

 

I completely agree - etiquette demands that discovery logs be "legitimate". But who decides what's legitimate? Mainly, the trackable owner, on their own listing, based on information that have at their disposal (especially if the logger admits to how they got the code in the log itself).

 

Multiple facebook groups exist where codes are shared en masse. It's a very hard thing to control, but hopefully the TB Owner can decide per case.

As much as we hate those groups, it's just like sites that provide final coordinates to people for difficult puzzle caches. :angry:

 

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Multiple facebook groups exist where codes are shared en masse. It's a very hard thing to control, but hopefully the TB Owner can decide per case.

As much as we hate those groups, it's just like sites that provide final coordinates to people for difficult puzzle caches. :angry:

 

Agree, very much so. But at least they get off their bum to find the cache.

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Multiple facebook groups exist where codes are shared en masse. It's a very hard thing to control, but hopefully the TB Owner can decide per case.

 

Interesting. I was just saying in my last post I hadn't looked at the TB forum in about 2 years, and I don't have Facebook. I had no clue this was going on. Is it safe to say all these groups are European-based or no? I don't want to get flamed, I'm just asking. :P

 

I am saddened to hear the feelings of many about discovering TBs and Geocoins, because I need a list of about 16,000 to discover. I have a challenge cache in my 10 mile radius and can't clear it until I discover more TBs than I have cache finds. I am an avid mover of TBs and have moved quite a few. I believe I have discovered about 10% of my total TBs and this is due to friend's coins, neat icons, or achievement coins. Now, because of this cache Challenge Cache, I need to locate a large list of them to discover and I think folks in general are against that. What will I do?

 

You need to put it on your ignore list. It has been shown that most premium members don't even use it, especially one with your amount of finds. But you're going to have the join the few and proud. :P

 

That being said, looking at some of the numbers of cache finds and TB's some of the finders are stating in their logs, and looking at their current totals, I'm going to guess a few of them found these probably European Facebook pages. :ph34r:

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...but hopefully the TB Owner can decide per case.

 

I just grabbed a travelbug that has maaannnny discovered logs. It looked like the bug was in Montana when tons of people were logging it from Arizona because many were using a date later than the event to log the discover and the bug just happened to end up in Montana two days after the event.

 

As thebruce0 pointed out above, there could be some virtual logs in that group but it would be hard for the owner to detect them. I only went through a few logs but I did see that a couple of cachers were caching in other states in the days surrounding the Arizona event.

 

It would be interesting to see what kind of flak would come up if a trackable owner revolted against 50 to 100 discover logs and deleted them?

 

I wonder if some folks have put notes on their trackable pages requesting no large event discovers and suggesting those logs will be deleted?

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It would be interesting to see what kind of flak would come up if a trackable owner revolted against 50 to 100 discover logs and deleted them?

 

 

You mean logger flak as opposed to site owner concerns.

 

Loggers, yes, that would be expected, but mostly what flak might come up here?

 

What about the idea of declaring one's trackable as off limits to large events where lists of tracking numbers are passed around? This would be where the trackable was, at least, in the same room with the attendees.

 

Email comm with someone at the Arizona event said over 1100 attendees were exchanging tracking numbers. I presume the trackables on the lists were all at the event.

 

What if your (anyone - not specifically the BlueDuece) trackable got 100, 200, or more, discover logs from one event?

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Just our 2 cents. When new to caching we attended the Carnation Geo-woodstock VIII event. We proudly displayed our Car's TB number in the front, back, and side windows at all the events that weekend. Apparently at some point locals took pictures of their kids near the code and posted them in their family blog. At the time we got maybe 2 "virtual" discovery logs because of that photo. At first I though kinda cool someone saw us on the web, felt a little like wow I'm on TV. Didn't think anything more about it as that was so many years ago who's going to be web searching for some old Geo-woodstock photos in someone's family blog.

 

Fast forward to this past Spring. Nearly every discovery was a virtual. We were being found in Belgium, France, Italy, South America just to name a few. Flak just from 2 cachers. One emailed they didn't understand the deletion, it wasn't a cut and paste log, they wrote something "unique". I replied that wasn't the problem that as the TB was never in a foreign country and by viewing their caching finds they never were in the US they could not have SEEN our TB. That virtual discoveries were against Groundspeak rules. Never heard from them again. But the guy emailing us in Florida swearing our deletion was wrong several times because he really saw our TB's number at an event there. Asked how that was possible if he was seeing it at an event in FL when the car was here in the driveway in the backwoods of Washington State? But it was on his paperwork as having seen it. Again it was in the driveway.. did he walk down the 100' curved driveway, passed a gate and 2 great danes to see it? He had to finally admit it was on a list being passed around at the event of TB numbers to log virtually. He never did see our TB and it's code.

 

I've figured out I WANT to know where you have seen my actual TB not where you saw a piece of paper or some online photo that happens to have my TB number on it.

 

In the end we deleted somewhere near 35 to 40 virtual logs nearly all were from this spring. Contacted the person who posted the photo in their blog to request blurring out the TB number, they did but were now concerned over folks searching the family blog for reasons other then what they had intended. Then had to post boldly on our TB's page we would delete all virtual logs. It wasn't too hard to figure out the virtuals...it's just really time consuming to go into everyone's profile and see where they were caching when they "discovered" Tiny. If you've never left Germany or South America then chances are you never saw Tiny, delete. If you claim to have seen it at a GW8 event BUT you've never been in the US, nope you didn't see it, delete. If you don't recall where you saw my TB it's was written on some piece of paper in the bottom of your sock drawer... well if it's not important enough for you to know where you saw it it's not important enough for me to keep your log.... Delete. Ok off my soapbox...

 

As an observation, we had our Car and it's TB number displayed at Geo Woodstock, the Ape Event, The Block Party and a 2 Pre -events (a Meet and Greet at the XXX and the Luau) that weekend and guess what, 5 Mega Events and we got just a hair over 100 discovers logged. So if a TB was getting 100, 200, 300 discover logs from 1 mega event I'd be wondering what made that one so popular over the other TB's at the event.

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We recently deleted a picture that was posted with "discovery" log for one of our tbs - in Germany. The discovery log is legitimate and it was discovered in the cache where it presently resides. Why did we delete the picture? Because it was of the tb tag itself (not the hitchhiker) with the number showing. Could eliminate the number with paint, but of course couldn't repost it. So this is just to show that because it is your tb/coin property and you have received notification of the log, you can delete their picture - and/or the log. Would suggest to NW Stinkerbella that you just go and delete their picture with your car tb and you don't have to delete the log itself if you don't want to, as we discovered with the legitimate "discover" log mentioned.... just deleted the picture with tb number.

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We recently deleted a picture that was posted with "discovery" log for one of our tbs - in Germany. The discovery log is legitimate and it was discovered in the cache where it presently resides. Why did we delete the picture? Because it was of the tb tag itself (not the hitchhiker) with the number showing. Could eliminate the number with paint, but of course couldn't repost it. So this is just to show that because it is your tb/coin property and you have received notification of the log, you can delete their picture - and/or the log. Would suggest to NW Stinkerbella that you just go and delete their picture with your car tb and you don't have to delete the log itself if you don't want to, as we discovered with the legitimate "discover" log mentioned.... just deleted the picture with tb number.

 

You should address your concerns directly with Groundspeak.

 

Seems like a good idea, don't you think? Not sure how you could do any better.

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"You should address your concerns directly with Groundspeak."

 

Not necessary. In this case, the travel bug was already in a cache in Germany and the discovery was legitimate as the logger had found the cache and actually saw the tb. Had no problem with it - only the picture posted which showed the tb# - so just deleted the picture, not the discovery log.

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The TB NW Stinkerbella was speaking of was mine. The photo posted on the web was posted on a private person's family blog that I had no exess to except to email the blog owner and make a request to somehow delete my TB's number. It was not posted anywhere on Geocaching.com.

 

Dispite every effort to make this TB's number safe once again just today I had to delete a virtual log from the Netherlands. The logger wrote - Log Date: 7/8/2013

I haven't logged my TB's which I've seen somewhere in the past half year. Now it's time to clean up my lists. Thank you for discovering!

 

Some of the TB's I haven't seen actually, but I hope you don't mind I log it. If you do mind I'd regret it, but I do understand. If you don't mind and you want to log of my TB's, let me know!

 

So dispite the big bold yellow highlighted I will delete all Virtual Logs not only did they admit they most likley did see my TB and were virtually logging it but was requesting I virtually log theirs.

 

Go Figure -

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