Premium Member Only Caches

[+McFlyAway]

I don't oppose PMOs, however, I just don't like not finding them. For example, I have a cache in my local area really close to my first find, but I can't find it because I'm not a Premium Member. Seriously?!!

[+Roman!]

I don't oppose PMOs, however, I just don't like not finding them. For example, I have a cache in my local area really close to my first find, but I can't find it because I'm not a Premium Member. Seriously?!!

 

If you can't afford $30/yr. for PMO you should be jumping with joy for what Groundspeak gives you for free instead of complaining about what you don't get. Either pony up for a PMO or suck it up, life's not fair and there are many many people that have it even worse than you.

[+SwineFlew]

I don't oppose PMOs, however, I just don't like not finding them. For example, I have a cache in my local area really close to my first find, but I can't find it because I'm not a Premium Member. Seriously?!!

Get someone to give you the coordinates for that cache.

[+BlueDeuce]

I've been a cache owner and a cache seeker and a pm for many years now and I'd have to say PMO caches don't mean carp. I can't even tell when I've found one.

 

Think you need to hide your cache from some maggot? Try hiding something worth searching for, cuz apparently the local gerks finds you easy enough.

 

 

 

edit: ttppo

Edited August 9, 2012 by BlueDeuce

[+cwgrizz]

I don't oppose PMOs, however, I just don't like not finding them. For example, I have a cache in my local area really close to my first find, but I can't find it because I'm not a Premium Member. Seriously?!!

Get someone to give you the coordinates for that cache.

 

That's the easy way! Cache more and you can figure out how to solve the coordinates. That's what I did.

[+Redfist]

I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

It's simple. If you don't like PMO, don't find them.

 

Groundspeak is a BUSINESS. They need revenue to exist. Premium Memberships provide revenue. Without that revenue, Groundspeak would cease to exist.

 

Deal with it... somehow.

[4wheelin_fool]

I don't oppose PMOs, however, I just don't like not finding them. For example, I have a cache in my local area really close to my first find, but I can't find it because I'm not a Premium Member. Seriously?!!

 

You wont find any of the Terracaches, Opencaches, or Letterboxes either. There are probably a few arrowheads under a few inches of soil in your local park, along with a couple of rings and old coins. A few of your neighbors probably have some pot plants in their backyard or basement, and there is most likely some silver coins in the baseboards of nearby houses built during the 1930s when people didn't trust banks. A couple of kids have probably have a porn and alcohol stash somewhere in the woods that will stay unfound also. You won't find any of that, but you'll have to deal with it.

 

Actually, you could enter in varying coordinates in the search field until you figure out where it is, and post a find using the backdoor method, but since it is only the cost of a half a tank of gas for a year, I think that would be unnecessarily tiresome.

Edited August 9, 2012 by 4wheelin_fool

[+BlueDeuce]

I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

It's simple. If you don't like PMO, don't find them.

 

Groundspeak is a BUSINESS. They need revenue to exist. Premium Memberships provide revenue. Without that revenue, Groundspeak would cease to exist.

 

Deal with it... somehow.

 

I'm very happy with the PM options that gc.com offers. PQs and stuff.

 

Are you honestly telling me that a PM hidden cache makes them money?

[+OZ2CPU]

>Are you honestly telling me that a PM hidden cache makes them money?

 

indirectly..

the more PMO caches, the more "value" is in the game for a paying member,

and then maybe also a few more will pay.

 

it is fully ok to find and sign and log online finds of PMO caches for a non PM,

just read the guideline.

the trick is to get the cords, it is as I read the rules,

not legal for a PM to give out PQ files or cordinates to non PM..

a legal way to solve it, could be to go out a day with a PM friend, and let him find it together with you,

and you both sign the log, then when he log it online, he copy and paste the log page to you,

so you can log it, or he reveal the GC code, so you can log with the backdoor your self.

 

or maybe just pay and see, maybe you even end up loving it :-)

one less burger meal this month, and you got the PM payed.

[cezanne]

>Are you honestly telling me that a PM hidden cache makes them money?

 

indirectly..

the more PMO caches, the more "value" is in the game for a paying member,

 

Not necessarily. Think for example of audit logs that are opposed by many and not everyone wants to go the inconvenient way to avoid being logged in the audit log.

 

the trick is to get the cords, it is as I read the rules,

not legal for a PM to give out PQ files or cordinates to non PM..

 

For traditionals you need no external help - sometimes not even for mysteries or multi caches.

Sometimes it suffices to know the area and encounter a log photo in the gallery of a visitor of the cache.

 

Cezanne

[7rxc]

I don't oppose PMOs, however, I just don't like not finding them. For example, I have a cache in my local area really close to my first find, but I can't find it because I'm not a Premium Member. Seriously?!!

Get someone to give you the coordinates for that cache.

 

That's the easy way! Cache more and you can figure out how to solve the coordinates. That's what I did.

Yep! Just extra puzzles, now if I could just figure a way to do PM mysteries... of course there are only 4 PMOC in this area, three of them found ( 1FTF on a multi) one was near a flooding river and can wait. Good fun once you figure out how. I can usually do better than my GPS margin of error compared to actual coordinates (not posted) when I check them with a friend later after logging.

 

Doug 7rxc

[Mr.Yuck]

I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

It's simple. If you don't like PMO, don't find them.

 

Groundspeak is a BUSINESS. They need revenue to exist. Premium Memberships provide revenue. Without that revenue, Groundspeak would cease to exist.

 

Deal with it... somehow.

 

I'll betcha they could cease having premium memberships tomorrow, and still have plenty of other revenue sources and not cease to exist.

 

The age old question your post doesn't address; What if there were no PMO caches? Who is to say thay have to be, or ever had to be in the first place, one of the dozens a perks of a premium membership?

[+The Jester]

The age old question your post doesn't address; What if there were no PMO caches? Who is to say thay have to be, or ever had to be in the first place, one of the dozens a perks of a premium membership?

Couldn't that be said about any of the perks? PQ, Bookmarks, or any else?

 

It's an unanswerable question, as if they didn't exist how could we miss them? And, because they do exist, how can we discuss what it would be like (or should be like) if they didn't...

[+ChileHead]

Remember ... Groundspeak doesn't make premium member caches. Cache owners do. Groundspeak's customers WANT premium member caches otherwise they wouldn't exist.

 

One of the letterboxing sites has something similar. Rather than being premium member boxes, there are boxes that only show up in searches if you have found 50/100/200/.... boxes. The idea is that they only want experienced letterboxers finding their boxes. Of course you could log bogus logs, but that's work.

[Mr.Yuck]

The age old question your post doesn't address; What if there were no PMO caches? Who is to say thay have to be, or ever had to be in the first place, one of the dozens a perks of a premium membership?

Couldn't that be said about any of the perks? PQ, Bookmarks, or any else?

 

It's an unanswerable question, as if they didn't exist how could we miss them? And, because they do exist, how can we discuss what it would be like (or should be like) if they didn't...

 

Because it's the only perk anyone EVER starts threads about. And I mean ever.

[+C8W9]

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions![/font]

 

Hmm... Well, I changed some of mine PMO because I became fed up with having to replace them. I've got a trail with some non-standard caches on it, and I'm not saying that it was all "regular" members, but usually when one of the containers was destroyed, the last finders were regular members. And usually new cachers with low find count.

 

Made the trail PMO, and so far I haven't had to rush out to repair any, or spend any more money on the trail. Was becoming far too expensive. They're also holding SWAG nicely, rather than been constantly empty.

 

Perhaps if you ever place cache's yourself, you'll encounter similar issues, and see that there's a benefit to making your own cache's PMO.

[Mr.Yuck]

Remember ... Groundspeak doesn't make premium member caches. Cache owners do. Groundspeak's customers WANT premium member caches otherwise they wouldn't exist.

 

One of the letterboxing sites has something similar. Rather than being premium member boxes, there are boxes that only show up in searches if you have found 50/100/200/.... boxes. The idea is that they only want experienced letterboxers finding their boxes. Of course you could log bogus logs, but that's work.

 

They WANT the PMO caches, or they use them because they're there, and have become ingranined into the culture for 90% of the time of Geocachingcom's existance? The only other Geocaching website in the world that offers, and probably ever will offer, Premium Memberships *cough*Terracaching.com*cough* doesn't have PMO caches. Then again, a certain bar code scanning game we're not allowed to talk about did recently start offering premium memberships, and they do in fact have a PMO bar code scanning thing we're not allowed to talk about.

 

Oh yes, I was well aware of the restrictions you can place on boxes on AQ. I'd go for that here. Let's see, the 100 find restriction would eliminate 75% of all "TFTC" logs. The 1,000 find filter would eliminate 99.4% of them. Actually, on AQ, it seems more common to turn on the boxes placed (planted in their terms) restriction.

[+bflentje]

GEOCACHING in and of itself IS FREE, 100% FREE.

[+Don_J]

Remember ... Groundspeak doesn't make premium member caches. Cache owners do. Groundspeak's customers WANT premium member caches otherwise they wouldn't exist.

 

One of the letterboxing sites has something similar. Rather than being premium member boxes, there are boxes that only show up in searches if you have found 50/100/200/.... boxes. The idea is that they only want experienced letterboxers finding their boxes. Of course you could log bogus logs, but that's work.

 

That is an interesting idea. My problems have been mostly because of brand new cachers who have no idea what they are doing. Even if someone has only found 100 LPCs, by that point they should understand how the game works. I would have no problem with the my listing automatically allowing people to view it at that point.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Don_J

[+Vater_Araignee]

I have been keeping track since 2009 and find that locally the maximum radius for ATAU gets smaller faster than the radius for PMOC.

In Michigan as of 07-21-2012 we have 27040 caches with only 1513 (about 5.6%) and when you start factoring in cluster distribution the chances that the average Michigan foot only traveling BM will encounter one in their home zone is slim.

Frankly it doesn't matter if a BM cant see a PMOC listing because if they have a average or better brain they can figure out the coords close enough to find the cache and even if they couldn't there is nothing to stop them from visiting the general area.

[+SwineFlew]

I have been keeping track since 2009 and find that locally the maximum radius for ATAU gets smaller faster than the radius for PMOC.

In Michigan as of 07-21-2012 we have 27040 caches with only 1513 (about 5.6%) and when you start factoring in cluster distribution the chances that the average Michigan foot only traveling BM will encounter one in their home zone is slim.

Frankly it doesn't matter if a BM cant see a PMOC listing because if they have a average or better brain they can figure out the coords close enough to find the cache and even if they couldn't there is nothing to stop them from visiting the general area.

BM can get free premium membership along with the final coordinates for all the local puzzle and multi as well.

[4wheelin_fool]

GEOCACHING in and of itself IS FREE, 100% FREE.

 

That's only if you walk to caches using a library internet connection without a gps or phone, by map or zooming in with the aerial view and reading the hints.

[+tozainamboku]

Are you honestly telling me that a PM hidden cache makes them money?

 

One needs to remember that when premium memberships were first offered there were not many perks. I think you basically got to change your title in the forum and your watchlist could hold 500 caches instead of 100 (they called that "unlimited"). Groundspeak asked people for ideas about what could be provided as a premium and PMO caches were one of the things that was suggested. Still there was some pushbasck asking if Groundspeak really wanted to create two classed of caches. However they ultimately decided to create PMO cache as one of the first perks of premium membership. If nothing else this provided people with the fealing that other perks would follow.

 

Over the years PMO caches have become a real perk for many members since they are seen as a way of dealing with most cache maggots. In areas where there have been cache maggots and pirates, I'm sure that some people have paid for PMO memberships just so they can hide caches and not see they get stolen over and over again.

 

The age old question your post doesn't address; What if there were no PMO caches? Who is to say thay have to be, or ever had to be in the first place, one of the dozens a perks of a premium membership?

Couldn't that be said about any of the perks? PQ, Bookmarks, or any else?

 

It's an unanswerable question, as if they didn't exist how could we miss them? And, because they do exist, how can we discuss what it would be like (or should be like) if they didn't...

 

Because it's the only perk anyone EVER starts threads about. And I mean ever.

Not true. I've seen basic members ask for PQs; and plenty of people who who post saying the $9.99 they charge for the smartphone app should come with a premium membership.

 

I suspect 99% of the complaints about PMOs are because the backdoor logging method is not widely publicized. Some PMO member takes a friend geocaching and they find a PMO cache. Then the basic member complains that they can't log the cache (or more often the basic memeber couldn't care less, but the premium member is upset that they took their friend to a cache they cannot log). If they knew there was a method that allows them to log PMO caches, they wouldn't have anything to complain about.

[cezanne]

I suspect 99% of the complaints about PMOs are because the backdoor logging method is not widely publicized.

 

I do not agree about the 99%.

 

Other not uncommong arguments against PMO caches are the existence of audit logs and the fact that the PMO is in used to hide cache listings from the public (at least in some countries and regions).

 

For example, caches at abandoned structures which are not allowed to be entered, show up as PMO cache with a higher probability.

Another example is this harmless cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC15HBH

Recently a woman had a very serious accident there as she took a wrong and dangerous approach and slipped. The cache used to be viewable to everyone and has been turned into PM after the first reports about the accident appeared in newspapers and geocaching forums. I do not think that using the PMO-status in this manner does contribute to a positive image of PMO caches.

 

Cezanne

[+Mudfrog]

I have always been on the side of "pmo caches are NOT elitist", "that just about everyone can afford premium membership", etc. On the other hand, i had never felt a need to place a pmo cache,, at least not until recently.

 

After having the cache out for a couple of weeks, i decided to log on under my daughter's non pmo account to see how the cache page looked. I knew that, previously, the coordinates would not be available but i sure didn't know things had changed to where a non pmo couldn't even read the cache description or logs. To me, this was a bit much so i immediately went to the cache page and got rid of it's pmo status.

 

I still don't feel like pmo caches are elitist and that they can serve a purpose. But i also feel that too many pmos could discourage newer cachers and others who might give back to our game in other ways.

[+Don_J]

I suspect 99% of the complaints about PMOs are because the backdoor logging method is not widely publicized.

 

I do not agree about the 99%.

 

Other not uncommong arguments against PMO caches are the existence of audit logs and the fact that the PMO is in used to hide cache listings from the public (at least in some countries and regions).

 

For example, caches at abandoned structures which are not allowed to be entered, show up as PMO cache with a higher probability.

Another example is this harmless cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC15HBH

Recently a woman had a very serious accident there as she took a wrong and dangerous approach and slipped. The cache used to be viewable to everyone and has been turned into PM after the first reports about the accident appeared in newspapers and geocaching forums. I do not think that using the PMO-status in this manner does contribute to a positive image of PMO caches.

 

Cezanne

 

If the CO changed it to PMO with the idea that it could stop some new-not yet even a cacher, from whipping out their cell phone and deciding to go grab a cache and then hurting themselves because they had no idea what they were doing, then I applaud him. This seems like a very good use of PMO status and can only promote a positive image.

 

As far as who is complaining and why. It seems that almost everyone that starts a new thread on the subject has no idea of an audit log. All they know is that there is a cache out there that they can't view and they can't find and they don't like it.

[+BAMBOOZLE]

I suspect 99% of the complaints about PMOs are because the backdoor logging method is not widely publicized.

 

I do not agree about the 99%.

 

Other not uncommong arguments against PMO caches are the existence of audit logs and the fact that the PMO is in used to hide cache listings from the public (at least in some countries and regions).

 

For example, caches at abandoned structures which are not allowed to be entered, show up as PMO cache with a higher probability.

Another example is this harmless cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC15HBH

Recently a woman had a very serious accident there as she took a wrong and dangerous approach and slipped. The cache used to be viewable to everyone and has been turned into PM after the first reports about the accident appeared in newspapers and geocaching forums. I do not think that using the PMO-status in this manner does contribute to a positive image of PMO caches.

 

Cezanne

 

 

As far as who is complaining and why. It seems that almost everyone that starts a new thread on the subject has no idea of an audit log. All they know is that there is a cache out there that they can't view and they can't find and they don't like it.

 

Exactly......and most complainers have few, if any, hides.

[+OldLog]

I have no problem with the PMO cache. It takes money and time to maintain this site. There are plenty of the other type for those not inclined to support the hobby finance wise.

[Tamara Rose]

well being handicap with a very low income.... meaning SSi has shot me down a few times i cant even aford a gps i may try for a PM account after life dies down i wouldnt mind trying it for a few months but its not to be rightnow

[cezanne]

For example, caches at abandoned structures which are not allowed to be entered, show up as PMO cache with a higher probability.

Another example is this harmless cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC15HBH

Recently a woman had a very serious accident there as she took a wrong and dangerous approach and slipped. The cache used to be viewable to everyone and has been turned into PM after the first reports about the accident appeared in newspapers and geocaching forums. I do not think that using the PMO-status in this manner does contribute to a positive image of PMO caches.

 

Cezanne

 

If the CO changed it to PMO with the idea that it could stop some new-not yet even a cacher, from whipping out their cell phone and deciding to go grab a cache and then hurting themselves because they had no idea what they were doing, then I applaud him. This seems like a very good use of PMO status and can only promote a positive image.

 

The person who had the accident has more than 1000 finds, is PM and is not a cell phone cacher. The cache itself is completely harmless. The PMO status apparently should rather keep media and other non geocachers from being able to view the cache.

If one really wants to help in avoiding similar stories, it would be far better to either ban traditionals or to show the coordinates only after someone has viewed the description (of course one cannot check whether someone read it).

 

 

As far as who is complaining and why. It seems that almost everyone that starts a new thread on the subject has no idea of an audit log. All they know is that there is a cache out there that they can't view and they can't find and they don't like it.

 

That's not true. Many threads about PMO caches are started by PMs. Moreover, I encountered several discussions in the German speaking area of this forum where the connection between PMO status and illegal caches is discussed.

 

I also do not feel that turning an EC with a description that steals all used photographs (including some which show people)

from the internet is a proper usage of the PMO-status, but clearly it helps in avoiding getting caught.

 

Cezanne

[+kissguy&frannyfru]

I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

Edited June 30, 2014 by kissguy&frannyfru

[team tisri]

I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

Since you are a Premium Member, are you a snob? Just say'n.

 

I don't feel the need to make any of my caches PM only, but I don't begrudge anyone who does. There are plenty of caches for non PM to find. And if they have found all the regular caches, then it is probably time to upgrade anyway. Most places in North America have thousands of BM caches within 10 miles.

 

PS If a Basic Member thinks hard, and then does some work, they can find and log PM caches all by themselvs. I did this for 3 PM caches before I eventualy upgraded my membership.

 

I've found a few BM caches in my time.

 

Oh, wait, you're talking about basic members. Never mind. As you were....

[+TriciaG]

I wonder why this thread got bumped.

[+giddeanx]

Necromancy

[+baack40]

Yes, there are snobby PMO members, but they would be snobby whether they were PMO or regular members.

 

I had over 200 caches hidden and only had one premium only cache. Why? Because it was at a privately owned church and cemetery and I didn't want just anyone going there. I wanted to keep the traffic down somewhat. I too don't care if regular members log the PMO cache.

 

A few months ago I placed a whole series of Letterbox caches that cost me quite a bit to put together and I made them PMO. I was starting to have problems with the free app cachers that didn't understand about regular caching let alone about letterbox caches. They were removing the caches and placing them other places, just taking them as a thrill I guess etc. I wanted to protect the series from such. Since the free app participants don't even have to go to the site to sign up or have a validated email address there was no way to contact them I found this to be a problem when they logged picked up a great coin, my son will love this etc etc. So if they didn't know what to do with geocoins and travelers do you think they would know what to do with the letterboxes which have rubber stamps in them and punches to punch out their caching name? I have had enough problems with this series as is, let alone letting the first time cacher find this neat container with these punches and rubber stamps in them.

 

Since this free app has come out, I will continue to make all my caches PMO caches if I bother to place anymore at all. My hides are not difficult so everytime I get a DNF log I go out to check. With the new cachers logging so many DNF's I have been run ragged. It used to be that new cachers at least came to the site and read about geocaching and checking into it a little before going out after caches. Now they see FREE and load it and head out to locate caches not knowing how it works. They log the caches telling exactly what they found and where it was with logs like 3rd post from the corner, or under the reddish rock, etc. They don't know any better so my thinking is they have checked into it a little at least if they have invested the $30.00 to join and have at least come to the site.

 

I see O/P has only one cache placed and maybe when you have placed more and start having problems with them you may change your mind about making them PMO caches. One cache is not a good sampling of problems that can occur with your caches.

[+WarNinjas]

We want to keep all of our caches for all cachers because it is funner if people find your cache! However we have had some problems with a few and had to change them over. It really has helped. The main one i can think of is a regular sized one on pier 39. It was constantly loosing TB's and the swagg was being degraded fast and was getting muggled. We changed it over and not saying premium members are perfect but have had way less problems after. We wanted it to be for all but it was not working out. We have out over 150 hides and maybe 3 or so are for PM only. Another one some kid was peeing and pooping in our cache. It had to be changed over. I don't see why anyone would make all there hides that way but some it helps to be PM only. We are not doing it to be snobby but it turned out there was a need for it.

[+ras_oscar]

To the OP; those of us that choose to pay for premium memberships are supporting the infrastructure required to carry the Groundspeak website. That means that all the non premium members are my guests. As my guest its my responsibility to ensure they have what they need to enjoy their stay at my house. As my guest they are responsible to be gracious. Wipe their feet when they come in. Offer to dry the dishes and perhaps buy me dinner when they leave. Now the snobs are those of us that have also been invited to join the double secret platinum membership. I never knew what a REAL party geocaching could be until I attended my first platinum member's barbeque at GS headquarters. Didn't even realize that the frog has web cams on all the caches in the country. The bloopers reel was hillarious!!! The concierge service for us platinum membbers is well worth the cost alone. And the option to have a reviewer accompany you to aid in finding a cache. Instant friends!!!

 

Just kidding. Platinum membership doesn't exist.....

 

No, really, there's no such thing. I dont care what you heard

 

There's no mention of platinum memberships on the forums whatsoever. Try doing a search. Really!! it doesn't exist.

 

Ask the frog, they'll tell you!!!

Edited July 1, 2014 by ras_oscar

[+hukilaulau]

Since this has been revived I'll give a new reason: PM caches are slightly safer for TB's and geocoins.

If you've found a cache with the beginner's app it's likely that you don't even know what they are, and will keep the pretty baubles without even knowing that it's wrong. I've been urging people to ONLY move geocoins to PM caches for this reason.