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Premium Member Only Caches


Locke72
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I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

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If one is patient, a moderator will come along and move the thread to the appropriate forum.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=299563

 

Of course, if one is impatient to have their rant attract attention, one could post it all over again in another forum.

 

So, what's the back story about this one? There's always a back story. Premium Member caches have been around since the beginning. There's been plenty of threads explaining the reasons why people make their caches PMO. A forum search would be the way to find those discussions.

 

"selected snobs"?????? You have the choice to pay for PM or to not pay. PM's aren't "selected" by anyone. What a silly thing to say.

 

 

B.

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1st premium members are not snobs. Well maybe some might be. :laughing:

 

I'm a premium member because I would like to support a hobby that I like to play thus paying the membership free. As for my hides being hidden under premium status is for 2 reasons. The first is to keep people away that stumble across the game(phone cachers/teenage kids) that like to take, destroy or do other things to caches. It doesnt always work but it sure helps the longevity of my caches. The second would be because I'm a premium memeber thus making my caches premium member. I do hide some non premium member hide too.

 

Geocaching is for everyone and is free to play, you just can't find premium caches if your not a premium member(unless you know the backdoor method of logging and have a friend with a premium account) ;) And I don't mind non premium cachers logging my caches.

 

Cant wait to hear some of these response from the rest on here.

Edited by the4dirtydogs
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Some people (recent threads regarding same) believe that PMO caches are one method of preventing 'looting' by the "try-it-once-don't-care-for-it-cachers".

 

The theory (not my theory) behind it is to allow only those that care enough to be PM access to the cache.

 

You can call them snobs, you can call them elite-ists, you can call them "Private Exquisite...<whatever>, it boils down to one thing... they are trying to protect their caches.

Right or wrong, that is the general thinking. Whether you agree with them or not, it's their right.

 

You do know what (usually) happens when somebody tries to dictate rights, yes?

Edited by Gitchee-Gummee
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I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

Since you are a Premium Member, are you a snob? Just say'n.

 

I don't feel the need to make any of my caches PM only, but I don't begrudge anyone who does. There are plenty of caches for non PM to find. And if they have found all the regular caches, then it is probably time to upgrade anyway. Most places in North America have thousands of BM caches within 10 miles.

 

PS If a Basic Member thinks hard, and then does some work, they can find and log PM caches all by themselvs. I did this for 3 PM caches before I eventualy upgraded my membership.

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1. "Snob" was the wrong description. I´m premium member too. I don´t want to affront anybody, espacially not myself. ;-) I was frustrated. I´m sorry!

2. My opinion is that geocaching should be available for all geocachers, even for basic members. I´m sure that even premium members are unintentional wasting or destroying caches, inadvertently keeping trackables without logging it, destroy cache areas during the hunt for caches.

But of course I respect your oppinions. :-)

Edited by Locke72
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Most places in North America have thousands of BM caches within 10 miles.

 

Not trying to get off topic (well maybe a little), I recently did two pocket queries with a ten mile radius. The first, a larger town (with what i felt were a lot of caches) I used to live in and still frequently visit and the second, a small town I recently moved to with very few caches.

By the way, I live in the western US.

 

The results were the larger town had 373 caches and the smaller one 133 within a ten mile radius of my houses. These were total caches. I did not designate premium or basic caches.

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If a Basic Member thinks hard, and then does some work, they can find and log PM caches all by themselvs. I did this for 3 PM caches before I eventualy upgraded my membership.

 

This does not help with the really annoying aspect of PM only caches, namely audit logs. Being able to click at a cache spontaneously is something of high value, and PMs do not pay for being audited by others.

 

Cezanne

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Out of my 130 active hides, ONLY 3 are PMO. These also happen to be what I consider my best 3. 2 of them are electronic puzzles. So why are they PMO? I couldn't care less about the Audit logs. I'm not really concerned about cache maggots seeking my caches out.

 

What I do care about is getting a good log from someone who has completed the cache after I have invested my $, my time, and my effort into creating them. Now I'm not saying that only PM's can write interesting and thoughtful logs, but there is (in my area anyway) a clear correlation between non-PM's and "TFTC" logs, which irritate me to no end.

 

I also like to be able to control the user-experience of my caches as much as possible. This is much easier to do when I don't have to worry about non-PM's unintentionally damaging something at one of these PMO caches I own. Again, I am not saying that only PM's can handle caches appropriately - but yes, in the past, there has been a clear correlation between a lack of respect for caches and non-PM's.

 

I evaluated the evidence around me, and determined that there is, however inherently unknown, a lower probability of something negative occurring to a PMO cache compared to a non-PMO cache. :)

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So, what's the back story about this one? There's always a back story. Premium Member caches have been around since the beginning. There's been plenty of threads explaining the reasons why people make their caches PMO. A forum search would be the way to find those discussions.

 

 

May, 2001, according to a well-known "history of Geocaching" web page that is critical of Geocaching.com. It inspired "the pledge" that Geocaching will always be free, on June 2, 2001. This was all about 8 months after the website was launched. And I ain't linking to this "history", I know someone who got a ban for it once. :ph34r:

 

 

If a Basic Member thinks hard, and then does some work, they can find and log PM caches all by themselvs. I did this for 3 PM caches before I eventualy upgraded my membership.

 

This does not help with the really annoying aspect of PM only caches, namely audit logs. Being able to click at a cache spontaneously is something of high value, and PMs do not pay for being audited by others.

 

Cezanne

 

I oppose the audit log. Great one cezanne, I'm going to roll with that one from now on. I don't pay to be audited by others. :laughing:

 

I hope people take it easy on the OP. A lot of people feel like they do, they just never post. I feel PMO's were much more controversial in the "old days". Like just about anything with time, they've come to be ingrained into the culture, and accepted. They just need to get rid of that audit log, because I don't pay to be audited by others. See, I used it already. :blink:

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If basic members may find and log the premium member caches too, the premium members caches are needless.

In Germany are areas with less caches. And somebody who has no drivers license or vehicle comes quickly on the limit for geocaching his homezone.

Besides there are very nice cache rounds or cache series in beatiful landscapes with 5, 6, 7 or more PM caches. I pity basic members who can´t enjoy this cache series or cache rounds.

Edited by Locke72
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1. "Snob" was the wrong description. I´m premium member too. I don´t want to affront anybody, espacially not myself. ;-) I was frustrated. I´m sorry!

2. My opinion is that geocaching should be available for all geocachers, even for basic members. I´m sure that even premium members are unintentional wasting or destroying caches, inadvertently keeping trackables without logging it, destroy cache areas during the hunt for caches.

But of course I respect your oppinions. :-)

 

There are over 1.8 million geocaches. Even if 20% of them were PMO caches (I doubt that it's any close to that high) that still leaves about 1.5 million geocaches available to basic members.

 

Whenever this topic comes up, and it comes up a lot, many cite the audit logs and protecting the cache from those that might want to pilfer the cache as the primary reason that people create PMO caches. I'll suggest another reason. Someone else mention that they open quite a few caches, that three of them were PMO caches, and that those were their "best" caches. As I see it, one of the reasons for creating a PMO cache (which hopefully one has put in a little extra effort to make it a really good cache) is to provide an incentive for basic members to become premium members. For every new premium member that's $30 a year that is added to the income to the company that provides the hosting service and other geocaching related services for those 1.8 million geocaches. That income can help pay for development efforts and hopefully in the long run improve the services that Groundspeak provides. By providing an incentive for basic members to become premium members there is the potential for the quality of service that all geocachers use to go up. I have no idea what percentage of Groundspeaks income comes from premium membership but I suspect that the overall service level would go down if there were a lot fewer premium members.

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I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

Why are you calling yourself a snob?

 

Stop hitting yourself.

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There are over 1.8 million geocaches. Even if 20% of them were PMO caches (I doubt that it's any close to that high) that still leaves about 1.5 million geocaches available to basic members.

 

Whenever this topic comes up, and it comes up a lot, many cite the audit logs and protecting the cache from those that might want to pilfer the cache as the primary reason that people create PMO caches. I'll suggest another reason. Someone else mention that they open quite a few caches, that three of them were PMO caches, and that those were their "best" caches. As I see it, one of the reasons for creating a PMO cache (which hopefully one has put in a little extra effort to make it a really good cache) is to provide an incentive for basic members to become premium members. For every new premium member that's $30 a year that is added to the income to the company that provides the hosting service and other geocaching related services for those 1.8 million geocaches. That income can help pay for development efforts and hopefully in the long run improve the services that Groundspeak provides. By providing an incentive for basic members to become premium members there is the potential for the quality of service that all geocachers use to go up. I have no idea what percentage of Groundspeaks income comes from premium membership but I suspect that the overall service level would go down if there were a lot fewer premium members.

 

1st: The point is not how many basic member caches there are, but how many beautiful cache rounds and series they are out of reach for basic members. Why basic members should not enjoy this cache rounds and series.

2nd: I agree to you that the 30$ a year are an good income to keep alive Groundspeaks homepage. It´s the most used geocaching website worldwide. And the premium member functions are worth it to be pay for it.

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but how many beautiful cache rounds and series they are out of reach for basic members. Why basic members should not enjoy this cache rounds and series.

 

Why should the basic member become PM if not so they can enjoy these wonderful series they have heard about?

 

Want to try Geocaching?

Yes.

Do you enjoy Geocaching?

Yes.

Would you like to find and enjoy additional caches available to Premium Members only?

Yes.

Become Premium Member!

 

I will say that if there is really such a great difference between regular caches and PM caches in your area, that is highly unusual. Most PM caches in the US are in no way better than non-PM caches.

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I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

Why are you calling yourself a snob?

 

Stop hitting yourself.

It´s difficult to put my thoughts in words when the usual language here is not my native language.

Not a premium member is a snob, rather the PMO caches are snobby.

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I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

I oppose people who oppose things.

 

For me, my Premium hides were an attempt to give 'paying' members a chance to get there first as a thanks for supporting the site that the 'non-paying' users were using. In general I'd leave them premium only for a while to get the initial FTF frenzy over then open them for all. I also had a scenario where some of the FTF crazies were not paying members, so making the caches PM only gave others a try at FTF. With the days of smartphone immediate notification of new caches, the FTFers got even more nutso around my area, so I basically gave up trying to have them not take all the fun from the newbies.

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but how many beautiful cache rounds and series they are out of reach for basic members. Why basic members should not enjoy this cache rounds and series.

I will say that if there is really such a great difference between regular caches and PM caches in your area, that is highly unusual. Most PM caches in the US are in no way better than non-PM caches.

 

The point is not the qualitative or what ever for a difference between regular caches and PM caches. I´m sure this difference is very small. Rather it´s a pity that basic members can´t see some of the wonderful and beautiful cache series. Here in my area is an wonderful cache round through an forest. But a colleague of me can´t enjoy this cache round in his homezone because he is no premium member. And he caches not so often like me, that´s why he don´t want to become a premium member. But he loves geocaching so much as I do.

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I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

I also had a scenario where some of the FTF crazies were not paying members, so making the caches PM only gave others a try at FTF. With the days of smartphone immediate notification of new caches, the FTFers got even more nutso around my area, so I basically gave up trying to have them not take all the fun from the newbies.

 

Most of the FTF hunters around here are premium members! And they often hunt in tall groups. They call themselves "Team FTF" and something like this. And they trample heedless through the areas!

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Some people (recent threads regarding same) believe that PMO caches are one method of preventing 'looting' by the "try-it-once-don't-care-for-it-cachers".

 

The theory (not my theory) behind it is to allow only those that care enough to be PM access to the cache.

 

You can call them snobs, you can call them elite-ists, you can call them "Private Exquisite...<whatever>, it boils down to one thing... they are trying to protect their caches.

Right or wrong, that is the general thinking. Whether you agree with them or not, it's their right.

 

^^^^^ I agree with every single word. ^^^^^

 

I have a few PMO caches. One is a series that took a bit of work to make happen and I don't want "just anyone" out there doing potential harm. The other is a tribute cache to a caching buddy that has her avatar stenciled on the ammo box. I am NOT very artistic so it took me a great deal of time to create it. Again, I would be quite angry if that one got plundered. That is why I own a few PMO caches. If that makes me a snob then so be it.

 

I oppose people who oppose things.

 

I'm against picketing but I don't know how to show it.

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Here in my area is an wonderful cache round through an forest. But a colleague of me can´t enjoy this cache round in his homezone because he is no premium member.

Why not just take him with you? Basic members are allowed to find and log PMO caches, they just can't view the cache listing.

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I wonder why some Caches are for Premium Members Only. For my opinion this is not the meaning of Geocaching. What is the difference to "Normal" Members?!

Geocachers, who needs it exclusive, can open their own "Private Exquisite Geocaching Community"! Geocaching should be for EVERYONE who is interested in, not only for a few selected Snobs.

Are the people, who hides Caches for Premium Members Only, thinking that they are something better?! They pay not for exclusiveness, rather for a few exclusive functions!

 

Why are you calling yourself a snob?

 

Stop hitting yourself.

It´s difficult to put my thoughts in words when the usual language here is not my native language.

Not a premium member is a snob, rather the PMO caches are snobby.

 

You're doing fine with the English. And no one is beating you up too bad. :P I'm not the hugest fan of them, especially in the case where people make most or all of their caches PMO's, other people follow the leader, and the next thing you know there's a concentrated area with 20% of the caches PMO's.

 

I'll tell you one reason I made two of my caches PMO, and I don't think anyone else has brought this up. One I later removed the restriction. I did it to keep traffic down, in the case where people had to park on quiet dead-end residential streets, and enter trailheads into the woods. I have seen other people do this, although they may very well have been following the leader in my case.

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1. "Snob" was the wrong description. I´m premium member too. I don´t want to affront anybody, espacially not myself. ;-) I was frustrated. I´m sorry!

2. My opinion is that geocaching should be available for all geocachers, even for basic members. I´m sure that even premium members are unintentional wasting or destroying caches, inadvertently keeping trackables without logging it, destroy cache areas during the hunt for caches.

But of course I respect your oppinions. :-)

 

Geocaching IS available for everybody. Not all geocaches are available for everybody. There is a difference.

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You have got to be kidding. "Snobs" are those that play a game using an expensive GPS receiver or a smartphone and who have internet access, so that includes the regular members. :D Compared to that, $30 is nothing. :rolleyes:

 

Oh geez! You have to say that? TYVM!! :ph34r:

I like this one a lot!

 

PMO caches are nothing more than caches that are only completely visible online to those who choose to be premium members. Pay to play is common so I simply do not understand why there is any issue from any member who chooses not to play. Any non-paying member can still find and log any PMO cache if they choose to. How many pay to play activites are there that allow those who choose not to pay, to play?

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Here in my area is an wonderful cache round through an forest. But a colleague of me can´t enjoy this cache round in his homezone because he is no premium member.

Why not just take him with you? Basic members are allowed to find and log PMO caches, they just can't view the cache listing.

 

Exactly.

 

It's funny that TPTB continue to support the PMO status of caches, yet if a non-PM cacher logs a cache and the CO deletes it (due to the non-PM status of the finder), TPTB will reinstate the log if asked.

 

So, ALL CACHES are available to be logged by ALL CACHERS.

But, Basic Members may have a more difficult time figuring out how to log PMO caches.

 

Beyond that, why couldn't your friend enjoy the visit to these wonderful locations without 'logging a cache'?

Is 'getting the smilie' more important than the place you visit to find these caches?

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Well lets see here. Geocaching.com is not a publicly owned company, therefore they can do whatever they want. Period. Second you are a premium member so what's the problem? Third if you don't like it there are other option beside here for geocaching. And has been mentioned before there ARE ways for a basic member to view and log a PMO cache, so in the end it comes down to the fact that it realyl isn't different other than saying Premium Members Only on the cache page.

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1. "Snob" was the wrong description. I´m premium member too. I don´t want to affront anybody, espacially not myself. ;-) I was frustrated. I´m sorry!

2. My opinion is that geocaching should be available for all geocachers, even for basic members. I´m sure that even premium members are unintentional wasting or destroying caches, inadvertently keeping trackables without logging it, destroy cache areas during the hunt for caches.

But of course I respect your oppinions. :-)

 

Why? First off Geocaching is a business and they need to make money, personally I'm impressed with how much they give for free.

 

People's sense of entitlement never ceases to amaze me.

 

I'd love to see higher levels like the mythical platinum level. I'd love to see a $30k level where you get your own personal driver, I hate driving.

 

I'd love to be a snob, I'm just not quite rich enough.

Edited by Roman!
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but how many beautiful cache rounds and series they are out of reach for basic members. Why basic members should not enjoy this cache rounds and series.

I will say that if there is really such a great difference between regular caches and PM caches in your area, that is highly unusual. Most PM caches in the US are in no way better than non-PM caches.

 

The point is not the qualitative or what ever for a difference between regular caches and PM caches. I´m sure this difference is very small. Rather it´s a pity that basic members can´t see some of the wonderful and beautiful cache series. Here in my area is an wonderful cache round through an forest. But a colleague of me can´t enjoy this cache round in his homezone because he is no premium member. And he caches not so often like me, that´s why he don´t want to become a premium member. But he loves geocaching so much as I do.

 

Must be Monday. :ph34r:

 

If your friend wants to enjoy this wonderful cache series, he can #1 get the info from you or go caching with you OR #2 shell out the $30.

 

There are a number of threads on here with people explaining why they make their cache PMO. I've explained my own reasons in the last (2nd-to-last?) thread on this.

 

Reason # 1 to reduce traffic to fragile caches or sensitive areas, Reason #2 for the audit log

 

As I stated in previous discussions, please do not forget that cache owners are VOLUNTEERS. With so many caches out there, I think people often take it for granted. It's kind of like if someone gives you free tickets to a show and you stomp your feet because they didn't give your friend free tickets too. Cache owners spend $$$ putting their cache containers together and plenty of time placing and maintaining their caches. If they want to make their caches PMO to protect them, that's their business. Rather than complaining that they decided to make THEIR caches PMO, how about THANKING them for doing all that their hard work so you can have FUN.

 

Someone with zero hides may not understand this until he becomes a cache owner.

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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Why not just take him with you? Basic members are allowed to find and log PMO caches, they just can't view the cache listing.

 

Because he works at other times as I do. We have shift work, so we can´t cache together every time. And he wants to cache this round.

All your arguments, like "protect the caches" "Audit Logs" etc., are irrelevant, because even premium members are destroying caches, or dont´t handle it with care. This is no guarantee for "protected caches". In your arguments premium members are the well-behaved cachers and basic members are heedless.

Edited by Locke72
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Once again:

 

I respect and accept all of your opinions, but I can´t retrace it. I believe, you don´t (want to) understand my opinion.

I don´t want to affront you. And apparently there are different kinds of geocaching people in United States and Germany. Maybe we germans are to seriously. Many things you take more easy than us.

 

But my opinion is still the same:

 

I oppose PMO caches.

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Why are you calling yourself a snob?

 

Stop hitting yourself.

 

It´s difficult to put my thoughts in words when the usual language here is not my native language.

Not a premium member is a snob, rather the PMO caches are snobby.

You're doing fine with the English. And no one is beating you up too bad. :P

 

Thanks. :-)

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so in the end it comes down to the fact that it realyl isn't different other than saying Premium Members Only on the cache page.

 

It is different and we all know - audit logs make a big difference.

I do not oppose PM-only caches, but I oppose audit logs. They provide data to cache owners that are not supposed to be available to them.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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Why not just take him with you? Basic members are allowed to find and log PMO caches, they just can't view the cache listing.

 

Because he works at other times as I do. We have shift work, so we can´t cache together every time. And he wants to cache this round.

 

 

I'm just now jumping into this discussion without reading all of the posts. If you really want your friend to have access to PMO caches, just give him your password. That seems to be an easy solution to your problem without pushing your will upon others in the Geocaching community...unless your goal is to do just that.

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Why not just take him with you? Basic members are allowed to find and log PMO caches, they just can't view the cache listing.

 

Because he works at other times as I do. We have shift work, so we can´t cache together every time. And he wants to cache this round.

All your arguments, like "protect the caches" "Audit Logs" etc., are irrelevant, because even premium members are destroying caches, or dont´t handle it with care. This is no guarantee for "protected caches". In your arguments premium members are the well-behaved cachers and basic members are heedless.

 

First of all let me say if you had actually hid any caches you would have more insight as to the problems of a cache owner. As I've said many times , on this forum those that have complaints regarding cache hides have hidden very few, if any, themselves.

I wouldn't know how to audit a log but as a CO that has hid hundreds of caches I can tell you , without question, a PM cache fares better in the field and there are less bogus NM and NA logs then for caches that are not PM. After yet another incident last week I made ALL my caches PM.

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Two words, Audit logs. Thats the main reason why there's 3010 PMO caches in Oregon. That make up 10.1% of the total of caches in Oregon. :ph34r:

 

I agree. I usually make my puzzle caches PMC's so I can see the audit log and see who is trying to solve it. I can then cross check the time against the checker to see if people are getting close to solving. Other than that I set my other caches as non-PMC's.

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I agree. I usually make my puzzle caches PMC's so I can see the audit log and see who is trying to solve it. I can then cross check the time against the checker to see if people are getting close to solving. Other than that I set my other caches as non-PMC's.

 

Why do want to know who is trying to solve your puzzle for caches that are not new any longer?

Trying to solve a puzzle cache is by the way only one of the reasons to look at a cache page. There are some cache pages I look at regularly to see whether there are new interesting logs. There are phases where I enjoy reading logs more than going out myself and finding caches I'm not that interested into.

 

I definitely do not want to be contacted, however, because I visit a cache page say e.g. once every two days. I also do not want to become a suspect if a cache got vandalized and I have not visited it, but looked many times at the cache page.

 

Cezanne

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Two words, Audit logs. Thats the main reason why there's 3010 PMO caches in Oregon. That make up 10.1% of the total of caches in Oregon. :ph34r:

 

I agree. I usually make my puzzle caches PMC's so I can see the audit log and see who is trying to solve it. I can then cross check the time against the checker to see if people are getting close to solving. Other than that I set my other caches as non-PMC's.

I dont have a problem with that, I got a problem with people that put all of their caches as PMO because they just have to know who is viewing their caches. Nothing to do with keeping their caches safer.

 

I now view PMO caches via API.

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The first is to keep people away that stumble across the game(phone cachers/teenage kids) that like to take, destroy or do other things to caches.

 

Oh, you must be one of those "premium snobs" who doesn't like teenage phone cachers like me. :P

 

In all reality I know what you're saying, I have a few friends my age who vandalize caches. And caches placed by inexperienced iPhone users? *shudders* (Although I have found a few that have rock solid coordinates.) I hate getting a bad rep for other cachers in my demographic, even though it's well deserved.

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Once again:

 

I respect and accept all of your opinions, but I can´t retrace it. I believe, you don´t (want to) understand my opinion.

I don´t want to affront you. And apparently there are different kinds of geocaching people in United States and Germany. Maybe we germans are to seriously. Many things you take more easy than us.

 

But my opinion is still the same:

 

I oppose PMO caches.

You're certainly not alone.

 

When Groundspeak first decided to offer a premium membership, Jeremy posted that the basic geocaching features that had existed up to that time would remain free. There would never be a charge to hide, find, or log caches. So when premium members only caches were added a short time later there was much consternation that now there were some caches that were no longer free of charge to find.

 

However that is an oversimplification of premium members only caches.

 

First of all there have always been caches that cost extra to find. Particularly back then when the commercial guidelines weren't nearly as strict. But even now you can hide caches in parks, zoos, and some other locations that have admission fees. In addition there are plenty of cache that require spending a bit of money to prepare for or to hunt. One reason for making a cache 5 star terrain is that it requires special equipment to get to.

 

There are some area where PMO caches make up a large portion of the caches available. In these areas, non premium members might exhaust the basic caches and find that are no "free" caches left to find. Then they may have a point in saying that free geocaching is denied them. However, while there are some ares with a high proportion of PMO caches, I know of none where there is not a substantial number of free caches as well. A cacher who finds so many free cache that they run out, is likely to get a premium membership for other reasons.

 

It is a misconception that basic members cannot find or log PMO caches. True that the caches page for a PMO is not visible to a basic member. So basic members won't be able to get the coordinates for these caches. However, TPTB have long recognized that basic members may go geocaching with premium members. This is particular true for households that have one premium membership and where everyone else in that house has a basic membership. To account for the fact that basic members often do hunt and find PMO caches, there is a "backdoor" method for logging these caches.

 

Finally, there are there reasons why premium member caches were created in the first place. When Groundspeak first offered premium memberships there were few perks. Groundspeak solicited suggestion in this forum as to what kinds of perks could be given to premium members. One idea that was often suggested was the ability to designate caches as premium member only. The ides was to thank others for support the website by providing a few extra caches for these people. (In those days there were few cache and these extra caches would make a difference for the premium members). About the same time, we saw the first report of cache maggots - people using the website to find cache and then stealing the containers and/or contents. The idea was that a PMO cache would provide some security. Someone who paid $30 is less likely to steal caches; and these caches could have an audit list to see who might have looked at the caches page to get the coordinates. Given these reasons, TPTB reluctantly decided to go ahead and add PMO caches.

 

It may be that nowadays there are plenty of other perks for premium memberships and need for cachers to place PMO caches to encourage or thank others for supporting the website is not so great. The security issues still play into many people's decision to hide PMO caches, even though now you have to at least have an account to see coordinates, and the audit log no longer serves any function as many premium members can geocache without ever visiting a cache page.

 

Perhaps some in Germany (and elsewhere) have a problem with premium memberships as it creates two classes of members based on someone's ability to pay. Most Americans would feel that $30 per year is not such a big hurdle that it discriminates against anyone who is already geocaching. Premium membership is seen as a choice that each person makes. Are the perks of premium membership worth the $30 to you or not. Not all premium members are going to take advantage of the all the perks. Most do not hide PMO caches. Many don't even realize if the caches they hunt are PMO or not. But there are a few cachers for whom ability to designate caches as PMO is seen as part of the value of premium membership.

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I agree. I usually make my puzzle caches PMC's so I can see the audit log and see who is trying to solve it. I can then cross check the time against the checker to see if people are getting close to solving. Other than that I set my other caches as non-PMC's.

 

Why do want to know who is trying to solve your puzzle for caches that are not new any longer?

Trying to solve a puzzle cache is by the way only one of the reasons to look at a cache page. There are some cache pages I look at regularly to see whether there are new interesting logs. There are phases where I enjoy reading logs more than going out myself and finding caches I'm not that interested into.

 

I definitely do not want to be contacted, however, because I visit a cache page say e.g. once every two days. I also do not want to become a suspect if a cache got vandalized and I have not visited it, but looked many times at the cache page.

 

Cezanne

 

It's nice when the cache is new to see who is trying to solve among my local geocaching friends. I also get a lot of people coming to town trying to solve my puzzles and they ask for hints. It's nice to see how they are coming along on the hints they get. That's the extent of why I look at the audit page.

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I oppose PMO caches.

 

Then I suggest you extend your opposition by not finding any more, and deleting your logs for the ones you have found.

 

Yes, deleting your logs will teach those PMO cache owners a lesson! :lol:

 

There´s no reason to be unobjective!

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All your arguments, like "protect the caches" "Audit Logs" etc., are irrelevant, because even premium members are destroying caches, or dont´t handle it with care. This is no guarantee for "protected caches". In your arguments premium members are the well-behaved cachers and basic members are heedless.

 

 

You're right, making a cache PMO does not guarantee it won't get trashed. However, statistically, it reduces that risk as less people are visiting the cache.

 

Did you read where I said PMO reduces traffic in a sensitive area or to a fragile cache? Reducing traffic statistically reduces impact to the cache and environment.

 

I challenge you to please address the above and tell me why it's irrelvant?

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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