FTF - Is it fair or ethical to allow friends/family to log these BEFORE its published?

[cezanne]

 

As is often pointed out in the forums (but forgotten equally as often), everyone can play the game the way they want. There is a segment of the community that plays the FTF side game. Why can't they choose to play that way?

 

They can, but they cannot expect that everyone else will do everything they would like to have to enjoy their game. That was the main point.

 

For example, absolutely nothing keeps me from publishing my cache at several sites (that allow cross-listing) and then of course someone only relying on gc.com will not have the same chance to be the first to find a cache than someone using several platforms. I'm not in conflict with any sort of geocaching ethics and the same is true if I had over the cache description to someone I know before publishing the cache. The situation would change if something like a FTF competition existed. Everyone who likes to play the FTF side game, needs to be satisfied with those caches where it works out the way they want, but no one can expect cache hiders to comply with the ideas of FTF-hunters.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited August 1, 2012 by cezanne

[+nthacker66]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

 

If the lesson you learned is to not ask opinions, but to leave forum posting to my husband, then I think perhaps you learned the wrong lesson.

 

If you are suggesting these forums are a welcoming and non toxic environment and everyone is welcome, then I have some beach front property in arizona I want to sell you ;-)

 

If all you are referring to is the posts in this thread, then how much is that beach front property?

 

Lots of different property to be sold with all kinds of ocean views from the desert....one need not look for for a thread on these forums to see how overbearing the forum regulars can be, just saying.

[knowschad]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

 

If the lesson you learned is to not ask opinions, but to leave forum posting to my husband, then I think perhaps you learned the wrong lesson.

 

If you are suggesting these forums are a welcoming and non toxic environment and everyone is welcome, then I have some beach front property in arizona I want to sell you ;-)

 

If all you are referring to is the posts in this thread, then how much is that beach front property?

 

Lots of different property to be sold with all kinds of ocean views from the desert....one need not look for for a thread on these forums to see how overbearing the forum regulars can be, just saying.

Let's not go beating up on the forum regulars, now. That would not be welcoming and non-toxic. Many of the forum regulars are very helpful people, and many of the occasional visitors are very toxic. At least that's the way I percieve it.

[+zack_black]

Since FTF is completely unofficial, anyone can do it any way they want.

 

FTF is something meaningless and ridiculous

 

This is my feeling on the subject as well but I have to include the following:

 

I have found, in my personal experience, that those in the Geocaching community that are anal about FTF are usually anal (and draconian)about everything else to do with Geocaching. Again this is my personal experience - YMMV.

Edited August 1, 2012 by zack_black

[+OZ2CPU]

I cant wait to go home and enable a new cache, just to see who find it first :-)

I am making alot of fun about the FTF race this month, releasing 15 new caches, one every sec day,

when you find all 15 you got the FULL cords to find the finale puzzle to close the game.

I did release the final a few days ago, just to be sure they all seen it :-)

the idea is to see how many of the 15 traditionals the good seeker need to find the final.

they do not know what numbers are hidden in what caches yet..

they are allready starting to debate about this via notes on the puzzle, nice, they are lurking out there,

I even heard from one person, he was blind caching my whole area last night to see if he could find any of them..

he DID find one, a puzzle, but not one of mine, haha that was so cool.

 

so a FTF hunt, and the whole game about it, can be fun for all :-)

try it, you might like the thrill.

or at least accept the people who do, and remember to put a FTF-certificate in all your new caches,

for you it might just be a piece of paper, but to the one finder who gets it with him, it mean a whole day of joy,

Every day I can spread a little bit of joy, is a good day to me.

Edited August 1, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[cezanne]

remember to put a FTF-certificate in all your new caches,

 

I certainly will not do so. If geocaching had been that much about competition and racing back in 2002, I would have given up the activity before having hidden my first cache.

 

for you it might just be a piece of paper, but to the one finder who gets it with him, it mean a whole day of joy,

Every day I can spread a little bit of joy, is a good day to me.

 

If I were to find your cache as first, I'd be more happy to encounter no such certificate, and if a certificate is there (however beautiful it might be,

I will leave it in the cache). So you cannot make everyone happy by your approach

in the same way as I cannot make everyone happy by not providing FTF certificates.

 

I do not care if some people enjoy to be first, but I do not like to support anyone who believes that being first at a cache is an accomplishment.

In a 100m race, all start at the same time and same place - then a competition and celebrating a win (if someone is inclined in doing so) makes sense.

In geocaching typically there are no equal conditions and so the framework for a serious competition is not present.

 

Sometimes I'm deeply impressed that a cacher manages to reach a cache and then that's the point for me to congratulate and not for being first.

 

Cezanne

Edited August 1, 2012 by cezanne

[+CanadianRockies]

Note that first to find is nothing which results from being claimed. It just happens. Of course you can set up your own private competition and then

celebrate the one who finds a cache as first after publishment, but this does not mean that this person is necessarily the first to find the cache.

Quite often muggles are those who find a cache as first ones and they do not even need to write an entry in the log book.

 

Someone who finds a caches as second person after a betatester, cannot be the first to find a cache - that's a contradiction in itself and not related to fairness, but to proper use of the English language and logical reasoning.

I think you're interpreting "first to find" too literally here. In your case, an ant could be the FTF, since the phrase isn't restricted to humans. In the context of the geocaching side-game, FTF doesn't always mean "first to find." Instead, it means what the local FTF community more or less agrees it means.

 

If someone finds a physical cache and doesn't sign the log, then FTF usually is still allowed to be claimed. Similarly, if a beta tester finds the cache, most FTFers feel FTF is still available. In some communities, a cache that honors a particular cacher can have two FTFs: an honorary FTF and a public FTF. As far as I know, no communities allow ants to claim an FTF.

 

Of course, the local FTFers don't always agree on definitions and "rules," which sometimes results in angst and forum posts.

[+3doxies]

<<Whats the point of just a bunch of easy to find 1/1 park n grabs?>>

 

What's the point of the whole game/hobby/sport/whateveryamaycallit? Nada.

[+nthacker66]

This is my feeling on the subject as well but I have to include the following:

 

I have found, in my personal experience, that those in the Geocaching community that are anal about FTF are usually anal (and draconian)about everything else to do with Geocaching. Again this is my personal experience - YMMV.

 

+1 bump

Edited August 1, 2012 by nthacker66

[cezanne]

Note that first to find is nothing which results from being claimed. It just happens. Of course you can set up your own private competition and then

celebrate the one who finds a cache as first after publishment, but this does not mean that this person is necessarily the first to find the cache.

Quite often muggles are those who find a cache as first ones and they do not even need to write an entry in the log book.

 

Someone who finds a caches as second person after a betatester, cannot be the first to find a cache - that's a contradiction in itself and not related to fairness, but to proper use of the English language and logical reasoning.

I think you're interpreting "first to find" too literally here. In your case, an ant could be the FTF, since the phrase isn't restricted to humans. In the context of the geocaching side-game, FTF doesn't always mean "first to find." Instead, it means what the local FTF community more or less agrees it means.

 

As I mentioned, personally I do not care about whichever way someone interprets FTF. In any case I have a good laugh at statements like e.g. the following

"Everyone that finds this cache on the first day (it has been the day when an event took place) is FTF".

 

If someone finds a physical cache and doesn't sign the log, then FTF usually is still allowed to be claimed.

 

I did not write about claiming FTF, but rather about *being* the first to find. I do not care if 100 people claim ftf - I just have a good laugh if they claim a ftf and are maybe the third to find a cache. It just sounds funny and is defying the logic of the language used.

 

Similarly, if a beta tester finds the cache, most FTFers feel FTF is still available.

 

I'm aware of that and do not object. Still it is not the same as being really the first finder.

 

Personally, I feel that the only real challenge of a first finder could be to cope with mistakes, bad coordinates etc - if there has been a beta test, this aspect is missing as is the aspect of finding the cache in its original state.

 

In some communities, a cache that honors a particular cacher can have two FTFs: an honorary FTF and a public FTF. As far as I know, no communities allow ants to claim an FTF.

 

Well, if they prefer to use terms that are saying something else than what is meant, let them go. I still stick with my opinion that it is misuse of terminology as often in geocaching. For example, many German speaking cachers use the phrase "einen Cache mitnehmen" (picking up a cache) even though of course they are not taking away the cache, but leave it at its hideout and do not take the container with them.

 

Cezanne

Edited August 1, 2012 by cezanne

[+CanadianRockies]

Well, if they prefer to use terms that are saying something else than what is meant, let them go. I still stick with my opinion that it is misuse of terminology as often in geocaching.

Often, the meaning of English sentences is derived more from context than a literal interpretation of the words. If I say, "I'm getting on the plane now," most people understand that I'm actually getting in the plane--not on top of it. It's not a misuse of terminology; it's a commonly accepted use.

[+bflentje]

I'm sorry, but I am REALLY having a hard time sympathizing with your plight. Geocaching is just geocaching. If you should choose to also use it as a means of teaching some form of ethics to your children, that is fine, but don't think that others should share your methods of raising their children. To some of us, its just a game. Relax and have fun with it. FTF is a side-game that some people enjoy, but it is not what Geocaching is about to the majority. If you want to teach your children a truely valuable lesson, you might use this as an example that it isn't always necessary to race to be first in everything. That there really are other things more important than that.

 

The best lesson to teach them is that if you're not first, you're last. Tell them to run faster.

[cezanne]

Well, if they prefer to use terms that are saying something else than what is meant, let them go. I still stick with my opinion that it is misuse of terminology as often in geocaching.

Often, the meaning of English sentences is derived more from context than a literal interpretation of the words. If I say, "I'm getting on the plane now," most people understand that I'm actually getting in the plane--not on top of it. It's not a misuse of terminology; it's a commonly accepted use.

 

In case of "taking away a cache" (quotation marks used because the usage I was referring to occurs in German, not English, a beginner might very easily misunderstand the statement which is not the case for getting on the plane.

 

If people enjoy, 10 people coming at different times can claim FTF (for various reasons without mentioning them - one could be the first finder hopping to the cache on just one leg, one the first finder who arrived at the cache without being having been notified about the cache etc). I do not care, but will regard it as absurd and as a potential source of debate which is exactly what is typically happening. FTF can mean a whole lot of things if not taken literally.

 

 

Cezanne

[+StarBrand]

Well, if they prefer to use terms that are saying something else than what is meant, let them go. I still stick with my opinion that it is misuse of terminology as often in geocaching.

Often, the meaning of English sentences is derived more from context than a literal interpretation of the words. If I say, "I'm getting on the plane now," most people understand that I'm actually getting in the plane--not on top of it. It's not a misuse of terminology; it's a commonly accepted use.

As you say - context is everything - if a mechanic with a ladder says "I'm getting on the plane now" most people will understand that he literally means that he is getting on the plane. Passengers in the terminal something else.

 

However, to many of us, FTF means just what it says - the first person to find the cache after it was hidden. Not the first to find it after publication on one of many internet listing services.

[+K13]

The best lesson to teach them is that if you're not first, you're last. Tell them to run faster.

 

I wanna go fast!!

[+CanadianRockies]

Often, the meaning of English sentences is derived more from context than a literal interpretation of the words. If I say, "I'm getting on the plane now," most people understand that I'm actually getting in the plane--not on top of it. It's not a misuse of terminology; it's a commonly accepted use.

As you say - context is everything - if a mechanic with a ladder says "I'm getting on the plane now" most people will understand that he literally means that he is getting on the plane. Passengers in the terminal something else.

 

However, to many of us, FTF means just what it says - the first person to find the cache after it was hidden. Not the first to find it after publication on one of many internet listing services.

The phrase "first to find" doesn't say anything about a person. If an ant finds the cache first, then is the ant the first to find? Of course not. Context and local usage is important even in the case of FTF. What if a person finds it, takes a photo of the empty log, but doesn't sign the log? Are they the first to find the cache? In the context of most FTF competitions, the answer is no. If the answer is yes, then how would we ever be certain who is the first person to find a cache? Is a beta tester's find the FTF? In the context of many FTF competitions, the answer is no.

[4wheelin_fool]

I would say that if someone found it before publication, the ethical thing to do would be to post a note on the page indicating it. However, nobody should be expecting FTF at any time, or believe that they are entitled to it. In every FTF scramble, there is always the possibility that it has been found already.

[cezanne]

 

The phrase "first to find" doesn't say anything about a person. If an ant finds the cache first, then is the ant the first to find? Of course not. Context and local usage is important even in the case of FTF. What if a person finds it, takes a photo of the empty log, but doesn't sign the log? Are they the first to find the cache? In the context of most FTF competitions, the answer is no. If the answer is yes, then how would we ever be certain who is the first person to find a cache? Is a beta tester's find the FTF? In the context of many FTF competitions, the answer is no.

 

For me there is no reason for knowing for sure who found a ache first. So, I do not need to answer that question. If someone wants to play a FTF-game, they need to make up their own rules, but be able to live with the fact that others do play another FTF-game and that still others do not take part in any sort of FTF-game.

None of these options is unfair or unethical.

 

 

Cezanne

[+briansnat]

I don't see it as unethical at all. This is simply a listing service. There is no rule written or otherwise that states that a cache must be listed here first. If a cache owner wants to give out coords to friends or family, post them in a blog, put on another listing site or take out an ad in a newspaper or whatever it's nobody else's business. It's his cache to do with as he pleases.

 

If someone wants to play an unofficial side game, he needs to realize that not everyone participates that game, so there is a chance he will be disappointed

[+CanadianRockies]

As you say - context is everything - if a mechanic with a ladder says "I'm getting on the plane now" most people will understand that he literally means that he is getting on the plane. Passengers in the terminal something else.

 

However, to many of us, FTF means just what it says - the first person to find the cache after it was hidden. Not the first to find it after publication on one of many internet listing services.

The phrase "first to find" doesn't say anything about a person. If an ant finds the cache first, then is the ant the first to find? Of course not. Context and local usage is important even in the case of FTF. What if a person finds it, takes a photo of the empty log, but doesn't sign the log? Are they the first to find the cache? In the context of most FTF competitions, the answer is no. If the answer is yes, then how would we ever be certain who is the first person to find a cache? Is a beta tester's find the FTF? In the context of many FTF competitions, the answer is no.

For me there is no reason for knowing for sure who found a ache first. So, I do not need to answer that question.

I didn't say there was any reason for you (i.e., cezanne) to know who found the cache first. I'm saying a literal interpretation of "first to find" is a little silly. But feel free to interpret it literally if that kind of thing amuses you.

 

If someone wants to play a FTF-game, they need to make up their own rules, but be able to live with the fact that others do play another FTF-game and that still others do not take part in any sort of FTF-game.

That sounds like what I've been saying throughout this thread...

 

The OP can choose to play the FTF side game. But they need to be aware that others might opt to either ignore that game or play it differently.

[+ArcherDragoon]

I don't see it as unethical at all. This is simply a listing service. There is no rule written or otherwise that states that a cache must be listed here first. If a cache owner wants to give out coords to friends or family, post them in a blog, put on another listing site or take out an ad in a newspaper or whatever it's nobody else's business. It's his cache to do with as he pleases.

 

If someone wants to play an unofficial side game, he needs to realize that not everyone participates that game, so there is a chance he will be disappointed

+1

[cezanne]

I didn't say there was any reason for you (i.e., cezanne) to know who found the cache first. I'm saying a literal interpretation of "first to find" is a little silly. But feel free to interpret it literally if that kind of thing amuses you.

 

Actually, I do not have any need to interpret ftf as I do not care about rankings. Due to the literal meaning of FTF I find it natural that an inexperienced cacher that gets a cache listing from someone else and enters the first entry in the logbook, will claim a FTF for the cache without any bad intention. I still think that the most natural interpretation of FTF within the world of geocaching (without taking into account any sort of local rules) will be the first cacher finding the cache (not the first creature finding the cache).

 

Cezanne

[+The A-Team]

However, to many of us, FTF means just what it says - the first person to find the cache after it was hidden. Not the first to find it after publication on one of many internet listing services.

Agreed, but at least in my area, it's understood that beta-testers or cachers who were there when it was hidden are excluded. If what happened to the OP occurred in this area, there would be a lot of unhappy FTF hounds. Of course, not everyone in a region might know the unwritten rules for that region, but the pre-publication FTFers on the cache in question sound like they knew all about it and just wanted to flout the "rules".

 

And just to be clear, a cacher finding a cache on their own before publication is all good. This happened on a night cache I hid last year. I placed all the firetacks and the container, then it was put on hold to be released a couple of weeks later during the annual cache-hiding event. A cacher just happened to be walking his dogs along one of the trails in the evening, and his flashlight caught some firetacks. He followed them to the end and got a FTF 13 days before it was published.

[+CanadianRockies]

I didn't say there was any reason for you (i.e., cezanne) to know who found the cache first. I'm saying a literal interpretation of "first to find" is a little silly. But feel free to interpret it literally if that kind of thing amuses you.

Actually, I do not have any need to interpret ftf as I do not care about rankings.

Once again, I didn't say you need to interpret FTF, either literally or contextually. I said you should feel free to interpret it literally if you wish to do so.

 

Due to the literal meaning of FTF I find it natural that an inexperienced cacher that gets a cache listing from someone else and enters the first entry in the logbook, will claim a FTF for the cache without any bad intention.

Nor did I ever say there is anything bad about such a person doing this. Indeed, I said we should "be aware that others might opt to either ignore that [FTF] game or play it differently."

 

I still think that the most natural interpretation of FTF within the world of geocaching (without taking into account any sort of local rules) will be the first cacher finding the cache (not the first creature finding the cache).

Such a "natural" interpretation deviates from a literal interpretation and takes context into account, which is point I made above. Context and local usage eliminate ants as FTFers. In some areas, they also eliminate people who don't sign the physical logs and beta testers.

 

Earlier, you said, "FTF can mean a whole lot of things if not taken literally." I'm just saying that FTF can mean all sorts of silly things if it IS taken literally.

[cezanne]

I didn't say there was any reason for you (i.e., cezanne) to know who found the cache first. I'm saying a literal interpretation of "first to find" is a little silly. But feel free to interpret it literally if that kind of thing amuses you.

Actually, I do not have any need to interpret ftf as I do not care about rankings.

Once again, I didn't say you need to interpret FTF, either literally or contextually. I said you should feel free to interpret it literally if you wish to do so.

 

Yes, I know, but the suffix "if that kind of thing amuses you" still made me belief that you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

 

Such a "natural" interpretation deviates from a literal interpretation and takes context into account, which is point I made above.

 

But only to a very limited extent in the sense that no deep knowledge about geocaching is required.

A beginner typically will read that to claim a find, one should sign the logbook. So I simply think that the most natural interpretation of first to find

for most cachers will be the first person signing the log book. The most logical interpretation will be to take the one who found the cache first, but that's of course not always easy to tell as you have observed before.

 

 

Earlier, you said, "FTF can mean a whole lot of things if not taken literally." I'm just saying that FTF can mean all sorts of silly things if it IS taken literally.

 

Actually, my experience told me that in my area much more silly interpretations came up for the non-literal understanding than I could think of for the literal one. I never encountered anyone coming up with the ants idea in the framework of a real cache. However, I encountered many absurd rules for FTF as the example I have mentioned before where the cache owner wrote that everyone who finds the cache on the first day can regard him/herself as FTF or that in order to claim FTF for a long distance cache intended for hikers one needs to send in the GPS track to prove that one really walked and did not use a MTB.

[+StarBrand]

I didn't say there was any reason for you (i.e., cezanne) to know who found the cache first. I'm saying a literal interpretation of "first to find" is a little silly. But feel free to interpret it literally if that kind of thing amuses you.

Actually, I do not have any need to interpret ftf as I do not care about rankings.

Once again, I didn't say you need to interpret FTF, either literally or contextually. I said you should feel free to interpret it literally if you wish to do so.

 

Due to the literal meaning of FTF I find it natural that an inexperienced cacher that gets a cache listing from someone else and enters the first entry in the logbook, will claim a FTF for the cache without any bad intention.

Nor did I ever say there is anything bad about such a person doing this. Indeed, I said we should "be aware that others might opt to either ignore that [FTF] game or play it differently."

 

I still think that the most natural interpretation of FTF within the world of geocaching (without taking into account any sort of local rules) will be the first cacher finding the cache (not the first creature finding the cache).

Such a "natural" interpretation deviates from a literal interpretation and takes context into account, which is point I made above. Context and local usage eliminate ants as FTFers. In some areas, they also eliminate people who don't sign the physical logs and beta testers.

 

Earlier, you said, "FTF can mean a whole lot of things if not taken literally." I'm just saying that FTF can mean all sorts of silly things if it IS taken literally.

 

You keep trying to push your definition of FTF as being the universally accepted one - it clearly isn't. I've read these forums long enough to know that there are multiple schools of thought about what exactly is a FTF. There isn't anything strange at all to me about the FTF being the first person locate a cache after it is hidden. Clearly seems strange to you as you desire the definition to be after published on geocaching.com

[+The_Incredibles_]

However, to many of us, FTF means just what it says - the first person to find the cache after it was hidden. Not the first to find it after publication on one of many internet listing services.

Agreed, but at least in my area, it's understood that beta-testers or cachers who were there when it was hidden are excluded. If what happened to the OP occurred in this area, there would be a lot of unhappy FTF hounds.

 

We live in the same area. Interesting that I have a different perspective.

 

Most of the 'FTF hounds' here that I've met are more than happy to share a FTF with whomever happens to be there at the time. FTF "races" here are generally social opportunities, at least that's my perspective. I don't see most people here taking it that seriously. I'd rather get a 2TF and have a nice chat with a fellow cacher than get a FTF.

 

Like I said, I found a pre-signed cache here and simply claimed "FTF after publishing" and claimed a FTF on my public profile. I don't remember anybody getting upset.

[+The A-Team]

However, to many of us, FTF means just what it says - the first person to find the cache after it was hidden. Not the first to find it after publication on one of many internet listing services.

Agreed, but at least in my area, it's understood that beta-testers or cachers who were there when it was hidden are excluded. If what happened to the OP occurred in this area, there would be a lot of unhappy FTF hounds.

 

We live in the same area. Interesting that I have a different perspective.

 

Most of the 'FTF hounds' here that I've met are more than happy to share a FTF with whomever happens to be there at the time. FTF "races" here are generally social opportunities, at least that's my perspective. I don't see most people here taking it that seriously. I'd rather get a 2TF and have a nice chat with a fellow cacher than get a FTF.

 

Like I said, I found a pre-signed cache here and simply claimed "FTF after publishing" and claimed a FTF on my public profile. I don't remember anybody getting upset.

I think you may have misread my post. Those that I said were excluded weren't other cachers that were present at the time of finding, but at the time of hiding. The cachers that were with the CO when they hid the cache, signed the log at that time, then claimed FTF. In reality, they didn't find it, because it hadn't even been hidden yet, so claiming FTF just doesn't seem right.

 

I totally agree that the locals here very willingly share FTF, and I've been on both sides of that many, many times. I've been a part of many thoroughly enjoyable cache parties, and have hung around GZ for as long as an hour chatting with other cachers.

[+The_Incredibles_]

However, to many of us, FTF means just what it says - the first person to find the cache after it was hidden. Not the first to find it after publication on one of many internet listing services.

Agreed, but at least in my area, it's understood that beta-testers or cachers who were there when it was hidden are excluded. If what happened to the OP occurred in this area, there would be a lot of unhappy FTF hounds.

 

We live in the same area. Interesting that I have a different perspective.

 

Most of the 'FTF hounds' here that I've met are more than happy to share a FTF with whomever happens to be there at the time. FTF "races" here are generally social opportunities, at least that's my perspective. I don't see most people here taking it that seriously. I'd rather get a 2TF and have a nice chat with a fellow cacher than get a FTF.

 

Like I said, I found a pre-signed cache here and simply claimed "FTF after publishing" and claimed a FTF on my public profile. I don't remember anybody getting upset.

I think you may have misread my post. Those that I said were excluded weren't other cachers that were present at the time of finding, but at the time of hiding. The cachers that were with the CO when they hid the cache, signed the log at that time, then claimed FTF. In reality, they didn't find it, because it hadn't even been hidden yet, so claiming FTF just doesn't seem right.

 

I totally agree that the locals here very willingly share FTF, and I've been on both sides of that many, many times. I've been a part of many thoroughly enjoyable cache parties, and have hung around GZ for as long as an hour chatting with other cachers.

 

I didn't misread your post. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think the people here don't take it *that* seriously. i.e. if a kid who helped hide the cache claimed FTF, they would probably just shrug it off, have a giggle and still mark as FTF in their books. Dunno, maybe I should let my 4 year old claim FTF on my next cache and see if there's public outcry or not.

Edited August 2, 2012 by The_Incredibles_

[4wheelin_fool]

 

If someone wants to play an unofficial side game, he needs to realize that not everyone participates that game, so there is a chance he will be disappointed

 

It's not so much an unofficial side game when the site sends out instant notifications for newly published caches at all times of the day. This is sending a message that FTF is encouraged and seemingly official, whether it is intended or not. They could simply post all new caches all at the same time, once a week on Friday.

[+The A-Team]

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think the people here don't take it *that* seriously. i.e. if a kid who helped hide the cache claimed FTF, they would probably just shrug it off, have a giggle and still mark as FTF in their books. Dunno, maybe I should let my 4 year old claim FTF on my next cache and see if there's public outcry or not.

Okay, I see what you're saying.

[+tozainamboku]

To paraphrase Jeremy

Bickering over the rules of a "first-to-find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a FTF.

There seem to be a few puritans who can't abide any definition other that the first person to find the cache and signed the log. It makes more sense to me, that if you want to play an FTF side game, and don't want to be disappointed because a cache had beta finders who may or may not have been there when the cache owner hid it, then you might as well adopt a definition of first to find the cache after it is published. While it's sometimes hard to determine if existing signature were per-publication, this in no always the case, as with the OP where the signatures were dated two days before the publication.

[AZcachemeister]

To paraphrase Jeremy

Bickering over the rules of a "first-to-find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a FTF.

There seem to be a few puritans who can't abide any definition other that the first person to find the cache and signed the log. It makes more sense to me, that if you want to play an FTF side game, and don't want to be disappointed because a cache had beta finders who may or may not have been there when the cache owner hid it, then you might as well adopt a definition of first to find the cache after it is published. While it's sometimes hard to determine if existing signature were per-publication, this in no always the case, as with the OP where the signatures were dated two days before the publication.

 

Like Jeremy knows anything about FTFs!

 

Do you suppose he ever abandoned the dinner table to go out in the pouring rain for one?

I think not.

[Mr.Yuck]

 

If someone wants to play an unofficial side game, he needs to realize that not everyone participates that game, so there is a chance he will be disappointed

 

It's not so much an unofficial side game when the site sends out instant notifications for newly published caches at all times of the day. This is sending a message that FTF is encouraged and seemingly official, whether it is intended or not. They could simply post all new caches all at the same time, once a week on Friday.

 

Or go back to the old fashioned way, and make the FTF hounds look at the "caches by State" page several times a day. That's what I did from 2003-2005 when I tried for them. Until some then newb came along, and showed me how ridiculous the whole thing was. Like running ahead of people without introducing himself. Or going into dawn to dusk parks at 3:00 in the morning.

 

 

I didn't misread your post. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think the people here don't take it *that* seriously. i.e. if a kid who helped hide the cache claimed FTF, they would probably just shrug it off, have a giggle and still mark as FTF in their books. Dunno, maybe I should let my 4 year old claim FTF on my next cache and see if there's public outcry or not.

 

Eh, not necessarily kids. As I stated earlier in the thread, a couple of grown adults in my area were doing this to each other's caches when I started almost 9 years ago. And I can't even begin to tell you how blatantly obvious it was back when The 3rd most populous State in the U.S. (New York) didn't even have it's own reviewer, and caches generally took 2-3 days to be published.

 

Not that I care of course. But in the modern cache notification era, I can see where claiming FTF on caches you found before publishing given the coords, or helped hide, can induce the ultimate geo-drama within FTF circles. On the other hand, "Beta testing", and logging after FTF, seems to go over without any problems.

[+CanadianRockies]

Such a "natural" interpretation deviates from a literal interpretation and takes context into account, which is point I made above.

But only to a very limited extent in the sense that no deep knowledge about geocaching is required.

A beginner typically will read that to claim a find, one should sign the logbook. So I simply think that the most natural interpretation of first to find

for most cachers will be the first person signing the log book.

Once again you're simply proving my point. A "natural" interpretation isn't a literal interpretation; instead, it's one that takes context into account. If you interpret "first to find" literally, then ants can find a cache first. In the context of geocaching, however, ants generally cannot be FTFers. If you interpret "first to find" literally, then a person who "finds" the cache but doesn't sign the physical log can be the FTF. In the context of geocaching, however, most people probably expect the FTFer to not only literally "find" the cache but also sign the log book.

 

I'm not saying a "natural" interpretation of "first to find" is silly. I'm saying a "literal" interpretation of "first to find" can be silly.

 

Earlier, you said, "FTF can mean a whole lot of things if not taken literally." I'm just saying that FTF can mean all sorts of silly things if it IS taken literally.

Actually, my experience told me that in my area much more silly interpretations came up for the non-literal understanding than I could think of for the literal one. I never encountered anyone coming up with the ants idea in the framework of a real cache.

That's because, in practice, not many people interpret "first to find" literally. Just about everybody reads context and local usage into those words.

[+CanadianRockies]

I didn't say there was any reason for you (i.e., cezanne) to know who found the cache first. I'm saying a literal interpretation of "first to find" is a little silly. But feel free to interpret it literally if that kind of thing amuses you.

Actually, I do not have any need to interpret ftf as I do not care about rankings.

Once again, I didn't say you need to interpret FTF, either literally or contextually. I said you should feel free to interpret it literally if you wish to do so.

 

Due to the literal meaning of FTF I find it natural that an inexperienced cacher that gets a cache listing from someone else and enters the first entry in the logbook, will claim a FTF for the cache without any bad intention.

Nor did I ever say there is anything bad about such a person doing this. Indeed, I said we should "be aware that others might opt to either ignore that [FTF] game or play it differently."

 

I still think that the most natural interpretation of FTF within the world of geocaching (without taking into account any sort of local rules) will be the first cacher finding the cache (not the first creature finding the cache).

Such a "natural" interpretation deviates from a literal interpretation and takes context into account, which is point I made above. Context and local usage eliminate ants as FTFers. In some areas, they also eliminate people who don't sign the physical logs and beta testers.

 

Earlier, you said, "FTF can mean a whole lot of things if not taken literally." I'm just saying that FTF can mean all sorts of silly things if it IS taken literally.

You keep trying to push your definition of FTF as being the universally accepted one - it clearly isn't. I've read these forums long enough to know that there are multiple schools of thought about what exactly is a FTF.

I've never suggested that there is a universally accepted definition of FTF. In fact, I've said just the opposite (see bolded sentence, above).

 

There isn't anything strange at all to me about the FTF being the first person locate a cache after it is hidden. Clearly seems strange to you as you desire the definition to be after published on geocaching.com

I've never wanted to define FTF to include only those finds that occur after a cache is published on GC.com. In fact, if I am ever appointed Grand Poobah in Charge of Defining FTF, my definition would include many people who find a cache before it's published on GC.com.

[cezanne]

In the context of geocaching, however, most people probably expect the FTFer to not only literally "find" the cache but also sign the log book.

 

But I think that is happening only because Groundspeak came up with the unfortunate terms of "found it" and "did not find it" which are not really 1:1 connected to finding a cache.

"Found it" rather should be something like "signed the logbook". I have found many caches where I could sign the log book and it sounds somehow strange to write in a note or dnf log that one found the cache, like it happened to me e.g.

here

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=bf2cc78c-4273-4007-a577-bc40e24b3392

(and at several other locations).

 

The reason why the signature in the log book is so important is that geocaching for many is more about proving to have done something

than about doing it, and without log book entries anyone could claim anything and without log book entries there would be of course no way to come up with any FTF race along the lines of existing ones.

 

So somehow the circle closes: In geocaching a lot of terminology is used in an odd manner.

 

Cezanne

Edited August 2, 2012 by cezanne

[+OZ2CPU]

to Cezanne

is is perfectly ok you dont like or play the FTF part of it, do what you like,

do what makes you happy,

but why do you always spend so much time making alot of comments on it ?

let those who like it, play and have fun.

Edited August 2, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[+Z3ROIN]

Erm, first off... wow, such a debatable topic!!

 

I think that beyond GS guidelines, pretty much anything goes, people will play this game however they see fit, colaboratively or not.

 

I do go for the FTF's, and if someone got there first, no matter how much of a hound they are, then all power to them. If people have logged it before publication or with a huge tip off, then fair game, whatever they want to do. If i get a genuine FTF then woohoo!!!!!

 

It's just a game people.

[cezanne]

but why do you always spend so much time making alot of comments on it ?

 

I enjoy to argue and discuss in general and I'm a formally thinking person who likes clear terminology.

Some people enjoy climbing up trees or finding as many caches as possible, I sometimes enjoy discussing about geocaching matters more than

modern geocaching itself. Finally this is a discussion board. One can be a perfectly happy geocacher without ever visiting a geocaching forum at all.

 

 

let those who like it, play and have fun.

 

I do not hinder them from doing so except for the fact that noone will keep me from publishing my caches at several platforms if I wish to do so and that noone will bring me to provide FTF-certificates for my caches.

That's perfectly in compliance with any existing geocaching ethics.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited August 2, 2012 by cezanne

[+OZ2CPU]

>and that noone will bring me to provide FTF-certificates for my caches.

 

that is odd,

Do i understand this right ?

when you make a new cache, you dont put a FTF certificate in it,

simply since you dont like/understand/or support the FTF part of it your self ?

it is legal not to, as you say.

 

---

 

I as a CO place and make a cache to make other people happy,

and to give back to the community, so many other people made caches I found,

and they made me happy.

if just ONE cache finder will get a little bit more happy,

if I as a CO put a FTF certificate in it,

then offcourse I will spend a little time to make and print one.

[cezanne]

that is odd,

Do i understand this right ?

when you make a new cache, you dont put a FTF certificate in it,

simply since you dont like/understand/or support the FTF part of it your self ?

 

Actually, I believe that being offered a cache to be found and in addition being able

to enjoy the FTF-game should be enough reward. I do not think that people need a piece of

paper certifying their self-defined accomplishment. If they do, they should go for other caches.

 

I rather spend hours or days of time e.g. in researching the background of some cache location than I spend five minutes in

creating a piece of paper that reminds me of kindergarden.

 

BTW: The FTF-race quite often leads to unethical behaviour like visiting caches in the night where the cache hider asks for

visits during day time only etc. Encouraging FTFs is thus not a good idea in my opinion regardless of whether or not one enjoys this

side aspect of the game.

 

So continue to prepare FTF certificates, but live with the situation that other will not do the same.

Note that is you not me telling others what to do. I did not write: Remember to do not put FTF certificates into your caches.

Likewise I did not come up with suggestions for you like "Please hide at all caches such that even a clumsy person of 1.60m can easily reach your caches." and arguing that this makes sense as you would make such a visitor of your cache happy.

 

Cezanne

Edited August 2, 2012 by cezanne

[+JBnW]

that is odd,

Do i understand this right ?

when you make a new cache, you dont put a FTF certificate in it,

simply since you dont like/understand/or support the FTF part of it your self ?

it is legal not to, as you say.

Meh, some do, some don't. I don't think any less of COs that don't include a FTF certificate...at this point I'm more appreciative of a CO adding a "Congratulations to JBnW for FTF" on the webpage. Others like the certificate, it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. I used to include certificates, but in one of my caches I included a 10 Ruble bill ($0.31 USD). I agree that its nice to do something for the FTF, but it isn't required.

[+frinklabs]

I have left certificates as FTF prizes -- Canadian National Gift Certificates, Laurier Edition:

 

[+FrogMastr]

HI, my 2 cents!

 

Personally, i cared less for FTF, but some are so rushed by FTF that 5 min after the publishing they are on the spot that is thier way to play

 

Usually when i Hide a Cache my son was with me ... if he was there WHEN i installed the cache i showed him fairplay and he cannot log it in his account un til 3-4 logs have been logged.

 

When I install a chache and he is not there the unly rule is that he Cannot be FTF on MY cache and i cannot be FTF on his cache (since most o fthe time i provide transporation and i am not far away)

 

But all this is also to teach him that those FTF thing does not realy matters. e play for the fun of finding caches.

 

One tradition here in Quebec was to place a Scratch n Win ticket in the the cache as FTF prize. But in our sector there is on FTF Creep that i think is able to Teleport to caches So this is no FUN for anyone else that want to be FTF and we could just also take the prize and mailhim before publishing the cache so that is why now i only give a congrats on the FTF i Like the Idea of a kind of a Tiny Certificate with cache name and placed date might be a good idea!

 

But remember that FTF stat is only in the Database of the FTFers so just have fun!

[+JL_HSTRE]

There no official FTF rules.

 

The FTF rules I personally believe in:

 

1) If you are with the CO when they hide the cache or beta test the cache with/for them before publication, you may log the cache but are not FTF.

 

2) If the CO (or someone else in the know) gives you "inside information" - coords/location before publication - and you find it before publication then you are not FTF.

 

3) Exception to #2: if the cache is placed specifically as a tribute to another cacher, inside information for a guaranteed FTF is acceptable.

 

Ideally, if a cache is published as a tribute, all the locals should give the tribute at least a day to get FTF. I consider this a matter of geo-etiquette. But some cachers see any new cache as ripe for FTF (or are simply newbies who think nothing of it) hence why "inside info" in this case is acceptable.

 

4) Exception to #2: if the cache info is released at an event before being published, the first finder from the event is FTF even though the cache has not been published yet because it has still been semi-publicly released.

 

Placing a random cache then sending the coords to your 3 best caching friends (or your kids) is not an exception to #2.

 

5) If you find the cache before it is published without having received "inside information" then you are FTF.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Joshism

[4wheelin_fool]

 

If someone wants to play an unofficial side game, he needs to realize that not everyone participates that game, so there is a chance he will be disappointed

 

It's not so much an unofficial side game when the site sends out instant notifications for newly published caches at all times of the day. This is sending a message that FTF is encouraged and seemingly official, whether it is intended or not. They could simply post all new caches all at the same time, once a week on Friday.

 

Or go back to the old fashioned way, and make the FTF hounds look at the "caches by State" page several times a day. That's what I did from 2003-2005 when I tried for them. Until some then newb came along, and showed me how ridiculous the whole thing was. Like running ahead of people without introducing himself. Or going into dawn to dusk parks at 3:00 in the morning.

 

That's how I used to seek out new caches. When I was FTF on this epic cache over 10 years ago, there was no notifications, and nobody had started using the FTF acronym yet. I didn't even sign up for an account until a few weeks later, as the coordinates were visible to anyone - I had just signed my name in the logbook. I didn't care about being first, but just wanted to see the place. If they did just publish the caches once a week, it would cut plenty of the carp out of the races and allow more than just the usual suspects to get there first anyway. No hound would be able to be everywhere at once.

Edited August 2, 2012 by 4wheelin_fool

[+OZ2CPU]

>2) If the CO (or someone else in the know) gives you "inside information" -

>coords/location before publication - and you find it before publication then you are not FTF.

 

EXACTLY.. in my world a such person is the first to cheat :-)

similar to people logging a cache as found, and did not sign the log.

[Mr.Yuck]

I have left certificates as FTF prizes -- Canadian National Gift Certificates, Laurier Edition:

 

 

Are they WheresWilly Bills? I actually got one of them once.

[+jellis]

When we put out caches that other cachers who were there when placed or know where it was before it was published, would either delay finding it or sign it down on the logsheet. If we have friends who log it as a FTF, it is because they found it like anyone else. No home court advantage here. If they are then shame on them.