FTF - Is it fair or ethical to allow friends/family to log these BEFORE its published?

[+hofy67]

I have a SERIOUS RANT. I pay to be a premium member of the geocaching website. I signed up to get emails close to my home. Several geocaches have been published recently within 10 miles of my home. The first one published after we started geocaching back in 2008, I wasn't upset because I wasn't FTF. I didn't notice it right away in my email, until about 30 minutes after it was published and was 3rd to find it. Firemonkee published a whole host of them in the same day and my dad was FTF on most of them, we got FTF on a cache that was a little more difficult to find. But now, in the past few weeks, 4 caches have been published 1 less than 1/2 a mile from my home. I was there within 6 minutes of it being published and lo and behold, someone else was FTF??? The next one was within a mile of my house, I was there in under 10 minutes of it being published, got FTF. The third one, showed up on my cell phone, but I wasn't near home, so I shouldn't be FTF, but ironically, two other people DID find it after publishing and they weren't FTF. Today, we get an email on a new cache published, go out to get it within 17 minutes of it being published to find out "WE" arent the first to sign the log, but the log was signed TWO DAYS BEFORE it was actually a published cache. Upon returning home, we discover that the CHILDREN of the person who hid the cache (both under the age of 13) are claiming FTF. Is this right????

 

I try to play fairly. When my husband and I hide a cache, the only heads up we give family members (my dad, brother and a couple kids in the family also cache) is "Hey, in the next few days, a cache of ours is going to be published, watch for it" And a couple, my dad (who lives 20 miles from us) has been lucky enough to be FTF on, but not because we told him where it was, gave him the coordinates ahead of time, or even gave him any clues on it. I think there should be some sort of "fair play" to the sport of geocaching. Don't you?

[+The_Incredibles_]

I once found a cache signed weeks before publishing. I think it was grandma finding the kids cache. I still claimed FTF, for my own records...

 

I think you're taking things too seriously. Claim "FTF after publishing" if you want. Let the kids have their fun. And maybe stop rushing out for FTFs for the cache owners that are doing this.

[+The A-Team]

Since FTF is completely unofficial, anyone can do it any way they want.

 

That being said, no, that isn't kosher. Feel free to claim your rightful spot as FTF. Keep it in your records as a FTF. They can feel free to play like that, but you can play it in your own way. There's nothing wrong with the family members signing the log early, but claiming FTF is a bit sleazy.

[+nthacker66]

FTF or no FTF. Big numbers...

 

Honestly this game has become too numbers focused to the point it is obnoxious.

[+hofy67]

And my personal thoughts on it are, especially with these two young children, the parents are doing them a disservice and teaching them dishonesty and unethical behavior. Thats just my opinion. And NO I don't have a problem with kids having fun with this! My stepson has been geocaching since he was 7, and LOVES IT! He also is not allowed his own geocaching name until he's old enough and responsible enough to handle it (in other words, drive) and he must be respectful of other cachers and practice CITO. Perhaps its just that I am too strict of a parent then, but I see geocaching as a GOOD way to teach a variety of skills to children.

[knowschad]

 

nom nom! Good stuff!

[MisterEFQ]

I have a SERIOUS RANT. I pay to be a premium member of the geocaching website. I signed up to get emails close to my home. Several geocaches have been published recently within 10 miles of my home. The first one published after we started geocaching back in 2008, I wasn't upset because I wasn't FTF. I didn't notice it right away in my email, until about 30 minutes after it was published and was 3rd to find it. Firemonkee published a whole host of them in the same day and my dad was FTF on most of them, we got FTF on a cache that was a little more difficult to find. But now, in the past few weeks, 4 caches have been published 1 less than 1/2 a mile from my home. I was there within 6 minutes of it being published and lo and behold, someone else was FTF??? The next one was within a mile of my house, I was there in under 10 minutes of it being published, got FTF. The third one, showed up on my cell phone, but I wasn't near home, so I shouldn't be FTF, but ironically, two other people DID find it after publishing and they weren't FTF. Today, we get an email on a new cache published, go out to get it within 17 minutes of it being published to find out "WE" arent the first to sign the log, but the log was signed TWO DAYS BEFORE it was actually a published cache. Upon returning home, we discover that the CHILDREN of the person who hid the cache (both under the age of 13) are claiming FTF. Is this right????

 

I try to play fairly. When my husband and I hide a cache, the only heads up we give family members (my dad, brother and a couple kids in the family also cache) is "Hey, in the next few days, a cache of ours is going to be published, watch for it" And a couple, my dad (who lives 20 miles from us) has been lucky enough to be FTF on, but not because we told him where it was, gave him the coordinates ahead of time, or even gave him any clues on it. I think there should be some sort of "fair play" to the sport of geocaching. Don't you?

 

They were the first ones to find it. Does not matter if they gave out the coords before they submitted them to geocaching.com.

 

It has nothing to due with ethics. And I do not see how they are being dishonest about anything.

[cezanne]

Perhaps its just that I am too strict of a parent then, but I see geocaching as a GOOD way to teach a variety of skills to children.

 

Actually for me FTF just means that someone found the cache before anyone else. If a betatester or cachers that got the description from somewhere else or found the cache by chance find a cache without help of the hider as first, then they are the first finders.

Of course they are not winners in a competition, but I do not regard geocaching as competition.

 

I have several times published a cache on gc.com and an alternative site with no reviewing simultaneously and that will of course favour those also using the other site. I do not care if someone who is not the first finder of the physical cache chooses to claim first to find after publishment or counts the cache as FTF on his own site - FTF is something meaningless and ridiculous. Others can do what they want, however. I do not care, but they cannot expect me to offer the same chances to each cacher as it is not a competition. There is no cheating for me involved and no dishonesty. I do not value a FTF any higher than a find as number 2334.

 

Cezanne

[+StarBrand]

Just where are these official "rules" for FTF kept??

 

FTF is a fact of life - first to find the cache. Whether that means here on this website, via a private email or luck of the draw as you randomly stumble across a new hide. As far as I am concerned - publishing is but one possible point in time. Also - we do not all get those emails at precisely the same moment in time. We ran a test once here locally and the notification emails arrived over a 10 minute time span to 6 different cachers accounts.

 

FTF and 2 quarters will buy you a can of pop at the machine over on Main street. Come to think of it though - the 2 quarters work equally well.

[knowschad]

I'm sorry, but I am REALLY having a hard time sympathizing with your plight. Geocaching is just geocaching. If you should choose to also use it as a means of teaching some form of ethics to your children, that is fine, but don't think that others should share your methods of raising their children. To some of us, its just a game. Relax and have fun with it. FTF is a side-game that some people enjoy, but it is not what Geocaching is about to the majority. If you want to teach your children a truely valuable lesson, you might use this as an example that it isn't always necessary to race to be first in everything. That there really are other things more important than that.

[+Sol seaker]

And my personal thoughts on it are, especially with these two young children, the parents are doing them a disservice and teaching them dishonesty and unethical behavior. Thats just my opinion. And NO I don't have a problem with kids having fun with this! My stepson has been geocaching since he was 7, and LOVES IT! He also is not allowed his own geocaching name until he's old enough and responsible enough to handle it (in other words, drive) and he must be respectful of other cachers and practice CITO. Perhaps its just that I am too strict of a parent then, but I see geocaching as a GOOD way to teach a variety of skills to children.

 

Yes, there are a lot of things to teach children associated with this game.

Included among them are: The journey is often more important than the destination. This game is about the hunt rather than the find. The experiences rather than the numbers.

Enjoy life to the fullest and don't let how others play get you down. That's a big one they can carry on into life that will serve them well!!!

Another one is that life is not fair, and people are not fair. We've got to take these things in life well anyway. They can use this for instance, when they apply for a job and even though they're more qualified the boss hires a relative or friend. They've got to move on and not get mad about it, because they've already learned life is not always fair. This way they'll still have a great attitude for the next job interview which they will ace.

 

If they learn to moan and groan at all of life's unfairness, they won't get far.

Are they enjoying the game? Then they have succeeded. Have fun. It's a game.

[Andronicus]

On Sunday, a co-workers house burt down. Sorry, can't sympathise with you on this one...

See my signature... I like to be FTF, but...

[+CanadianRockies]

Yes, there are general ethical standards that develop amongst most local FTFers who take that aspect of geocaching seriously. Usually, one of the "rules" is that you don't provide coordinates to people before the cache is published.

 

The thing you should keep in mind is that not everyone (or even most) in your geocaching community are likely to be serious FTF competitors and abide by these "rules." If a cache owner wants to give coordinates away before Grounspeak publishes them, then they can do so. In many areas, people often will hide a cache to honor another cacher's milestone (e.g., 1000th find) and give them the coordinates early. Other caches will be hidden and found for an event before they are published on Groundspeak. It would be nice if owners who allowed their caches to be found before publication noted that on their listing pages as a courtesy to FTFers, but they certainly aren't obligated to do so.

 

My advice is to treat this as a learning experience and move on. As an FTFer, you're likely to have many learning experiences. For example, extremely bad coordinates, caches not yet hidden, FTFers who don't immediately log their finds online, etc. If you get frustrated easily, then the FTF side-game probably won't be much fun for you.

[+fizzymagic]

Getting caught up in the FTF game is not very helpful. It's my opinion that it is bad for geocaching as a whole.

 

I had my own little FTF episode this last week: I solved a 5-star puzzle that had no logs since it was placed in February of 2010. A 2.5-year old cache. Cool, huh? Well, we got there and there was a log from November of 2011. No big deal. I figured the finder had just neglected to log online.

 

But 10 minutes after I logged the find online, the FTF guy posted his year-and-a-half-old log. Apparently he wanted others to think it was an FTF possibility and be disappointed when they discovered it wasn't.

 

What kind of a jerk does that? If I were an FTF hound, I can tell you I would be quite upset. As it was, I was mildly disappointed, since such a long-standing FTF would have been kind of cool.

 

The point is that the whole FTF thing causes people to behave in ways they wouldn't normally. It's probably impossible to tell people they can't compete, since competition seems to be required for some people to have self-esteem. The best thing to do is have pity on the FTF hounds that need it to feel OK about themselves.

[+Walts Hunting]

You are probably aware by now that the website had a email lag problem over the weekend that didn't get fixed until Monday when the lackeys returned. There are a few threads that discuss that. Given that you ranted without bothering to find out the truth I think you need to apologize to the froggie and send him a bonus $30 as an offerring.

[+farrtom]

My son and I hid a cache and we asked for it to be published on Fathers Day (it is a tribute to my father). After the e-mail showed up saying it was published I took my daughter to find it. She was not with us when we hid it and I didn't help her but I made sure to have to the cache site right away so she could be the first to find. In fact we showed up a few hours after it posted and I thought she wouldn't be the first. I guess in the area we hid the cache First to find is not such a big deal.

[+farrtom]

I have given hints that a cache is coming to a friend but I wait for him to get the actual emails to notify him.

The last time I gave him a hint, all I told him was to keep his snow boots in his truck so he would be ready when the notice came in (the cache was hid in the winter off the beaten path!)

[+webscouter.]

And my personal thoughts on it are, especially with these two young children, the parents are doing them a disservice and teaching them dishonesty and unethical behavior. Thats just my opinion. And NO I don't have a problem with kids having fun with this! My stepson has been geocaching since he was 7, and LOVES IT! He also is not allowed his own geocaching name until he's old enough and responsible enough to handle it (in other words, drive) and he must be respectful of other cachers and practice CITO. Perhaps its just that I am too strict of a parent then, but I see geocaching as a GOOD way to teach a variety of skills to children.

 

I would like you to reconsider giving your son a geocaching handle. When he does get old enough to cache on his own he may be disappointed that he doesn't have finds from when he was younger At that point he may decide that he lost so many finds that he isn't interested.

 

Instead give him a geocaching name and help him log the caches he finds. Teach him how to log something more than TFTC, use it for creative writing, spelling, grammar instruction. Use it to show that slow and steady finds will build up over time. You can equate that lesson to saving money and show him that starting young and being consistent with saving will help the money grow.

 

Let him solve some puzzle caches, many of them use math, science, problem solving skills. That will teach him how to learn instead of just memorizing facts.

 

Then teach him that FTF doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Many of the geocachers I know don't even have any idea how many FTF's they have.

[+Isonzo Karst]

You're making a lot of assumptions about geocaching, based on how you see the FTF race. I think those assumptions are mostly wrong, built as they are around your interest in the FTF race.

 

The cacher owner can release coords to any person at any time. The first person to find the log is the FTF regardless of what "claims" are made.

 

This can happen well before the cache is published where you see it. This is not cheating and it's not unethical - and it IS fair.

 

It used to be commoner in the early days of this game. Some of my early hides were "published" to a local geocaching board, months before I listed them here. This still happens some.

[+hofy67]

Oh I completely am treating this whole thing as a learning experience!

[Mr.Yuck]

Oh I completely am treating this whole thing as a learning experience!

 

Don't care about the FTF race, and think it's rather ridiculous. And at the end of the day, a very teeny percentage of Geocachers do. I did "go" for them for about the first 1 1/2-2 years of my career way back when.

 

That's my disclaimer, so to speak. You know what? I'll buck the trend here. If you are someone who is into the FTF game, this is pretty lame and cheesy. And in case I'm the only nosey person to look, these kids actually taunt the OP about it on the one they found two days before publishing.

 

Nothing new, happens all the time. A couple of guys were totally obviously doing it to each others caches in my area back in 2003 when I stated. And caches usually took 2-3 days to get published back then. And then I found one on an extended business trip 200 miles from home around 2005, and a friend of the CO signed a week before publishing, and even gleefully claimed FTF on the cache page after I logged.

 

There are no rules, FTF is not officially recognized by Geocaching.com (other than an "advertisement" for premium memberships that says you can "chase FTF's), so you just have to let this go.

[+lamoracke]

Getting caught up in the FTF game is not very helpful. It's my opinion that it is bad for geocaching as a whole.

 

I had my own little FTF episode this last week: I solved a 5-star puzzle that had no logs since it was placed in February of 2010. A 2.5-year old cache. Cool, huh? Well, we got there and there was a log from November of 2011. No big deal. I figured the finder had just neglected to log online.

 

But 10 minutes after I logged the find online, the FTF guy posted his year-and-a-half-old log. Apparently he wanted others to think it was an FTF possibility and be disappointed when they discovered it wasn't.

 

What kind of a jerk does that? If I were an FTF hound, I can tell you I would be quite upset. As it was, I was mildly disappointed, since such a long-standing FTF would have been kind of cool.

 

The point is that the whole FTF thing causes people to behave in ways they wouldn't normally. It's probably impossible to tell people they can't compete, since competition seems to be required for some people to have self-esteem. The best thing to do is have pity on the FTF hounds that need it to feel OK about themselves.

 

Ugh, that particular circumstance would certainly get me a bit upset especially if I put a lot of work into it and it was a long drive. Would seem pretty blatant if I was in those shoes.

 

As far as the CO's thing goes, yes, I would not consider it very fair personally to have folks FTF it in advance if one publishes it without saying FTF was already done, but as the Incredibles said, one can just claim their own "FTF after publication" and move on with life.

[+fizzymagic]

And in case I'm the only nosey person to look, these kids actually taunt the OP about it on the one they found two days before publishing.

 

Oh, I had not seen that. That's pathetic. It's clear those kids are being taught to be complete... well, not on a family board!

 

I reiterate: the FTF "game" is bad for geocaching as a whole.

[AZcachemeister]

 

I try to play fairly. When my husband and I hide a cache, the only heads up we give family members (my dad, brother and a couple kids in the family also cache) is "Hey, in the next few days, a cache of ours is going to be published, watch for it" And a couple, my dad (who lives 20 miles from us) has been lucky enough to be FTF on, but not because we told him where it was, gave him the coordinates ahead of time, or even gave him any clues on it. I think there should be some sort of "fair play" to the sport of geocaching. Don't you?

 

It's not a race or a competition...unless you try to make it one.

If you do, prepare to be disappointed...frequently.

The only 'fairness' is accurate co-ordinates and D/T ratings.

Did you miss out on the $50 FTF prize?

[AZcachemeister]

 

But 10 minutes after I logged the find online, the FTF guy posted his year-and-a-half-old log. Apparently he wanted others to think it was an FTF possibility and be disappointed when they discovered it wasn't.

 

 

I have played the 'delayed FTF game' a few times, and have been bitten by it about the same number of times.

 

BUT, a year-and-a-half delayed FTF log?

That's bogus.

[+BlueDeuce]

 

I have played the 'delayed FTF game' a few times, and have been bitten by it about the same number of times.

 

BUT, a year-and-a-half delayed FTF log?

That's bogus.

 

It's not a race or a competition...unless you try to make it one.

If you do, prepare to be disappointed...frequently.

 

Make up your mind!

[knowschad]

And my personal thoughts on it are, especially with these two young children, the parents are doing them a disservice and teaching them dishonesty and unethical behavior. Thats just my opinion. And NO I don't have a problem with kids having fun with this! My stepson has been geocaching since he was 7, and LOVES IT! He also is not allowed his own geocaching name until he's old enough and responsible enough to handle it (in other words, drive) and he must be respectful of other cachers and practice CITO. Perhaps its just that I am too strict of a parent then, but I see geocaching as a GOOD way to teach a variety of skills to children.

 

Yes, there are a lot of things to teach children associated with this game.

Included among them are: The journey is often more important than the destination. This game is about the hunt rather than the find. The experiences rather than the numbers.

Enjoy life to the fullest and don't let how others play get you down. That's a big one they can carry on into life that will serve them well!!!

Another one is that life is not fair, and people are not fair. We've got to take these things in life well anyway. They can use this for instance, when they apply for a job and even though they're more qualified the boss hires a relative or friend. They've got to move on and not get mad about it, because they've already learned life is not always fair. This way they'll still have a great attitude for the next job interview which they will ace.

 

If they learn to moan and groan at all of life's unfairness, they won't get far.

Are they enjoying the game? Then they have succeeded. Have fun. It's a game.

 

Well spoken!

[+CdAGeoGeeks]

FTF means something in the real world?

 

I guess it's just a matter of perspective I guess.

 

People will do what they want. You can't control it; you can only control how you react to it. We don't let certain things bother us. This would be a prime example of water off a duck's back to us.

 

I know this; when I die I don't want anyone putting "He found more film containers hidden in lamp posts all over the world" on my tombstone. I would rather be remembered for the quality time I spent with my friends and family, not my finds or numbers associated with them.

[+hofy67]

And in case I'm the only nosey person to look, these kids actually taunt the OP about it on the one they found two days before publishing.

 

And this is why my stepson does NOT have his own geocaching account at age 11! You cannot expect a child, particularly one under the age of 13 to act responsibly. The 'taunt' actually is what prompted my original statement.

 

I am all for kids having a great time with geocaching, which is why my 4 kids have gone, my two stepkids have gone, my niece, my nephews.... this is an entire family thing that my father got us all involved in.

 

Game = rules/guidelines... Seriously, its in the very first sentence of 'What is Geocaching?' it is a game, hence, there are some rules/guidelines to make it 'fair and respectable' for everyone involved. Several of you said that "I" (BTW, this is MrsHofy) was being a bit too 'weird' about this. Ok, so lets put it in terms you might understand: Would you play Monopoly with a child and 'cheat' just so they could win or would you teach them that yes, sometimes you DO actually lose??? Sports: Really gotta point out that whatever major baseball/hockey/football/soccer team you follow there are no losers in them??? Sure! All of these things are 'for fun', but at the same time, aren't there a few respectful tips/tricks/rules/guidelines that make it fair and more fun for everyone? Isn't that the whole purpose behind having a few rules and guidelines? I'd also like to point out that those few that ruin it for the rest are the main reason why so many premium members have gone to publishing premium members only caches.

 

And yes, WE, my entire family, take the geocaching hunt pretty darned seriously! Its a reason why we attend events, challenges and other competitions. And numbers game? Yeah.... and there are prizes (avatars or whatever) when you do reach certain levels: 100th cache, 1000th cache, most 5/5 caches, etc.. or perhaps those are only available to us premium cachers??? We also go for unique caches too. Whats the point of just a bunch of easy to find 1/1 park n grabs?

[knowschad]

And in case I'm the only nosey person to look, these kids actually taunt the OP about it on the one they found two days before publishing.

 

Oh, I had not seen that. That's pathetic. It's clear those kids are being taught to be complete... well, not on a family board!

 

I reiterate: the FTF "game" is bad for geocaching as a whole.

 

I think those logs make it pretty clear, though, that there is some pre-history here that we're not privy to. Not that it makes anything right, mind you.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Edited August 1, 2012 by Sharks-N-Beans

[+hofy67]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

Edited August 1, 2012 by hofy67

[+ChileHead]

Perfectly fair and ethical. FTF is First To Find. Not everybody sees it as a competition, so don't be upset if other people don't play by your rules.

[+The A-Team]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

It's very unfortunate that, yet again, some forum regulars have piled on and chased someone away from the forums.

 

The OP's post made it pretty clear that they subscribe to the FTF side game. Of all the posts in here, mine was the only one giving any support. Almost all of the other posts basically attacked and ridiculed the OP for participating in the side game.

 

As is often pointed out in the forums (but forgotten equally as often), everyone can play the game the way they want. There is a segment of the community that plays the FTF side game. Why can't they choose to play that way? If you don't want to participate in that side game, feel free to ignore it, but you have absolutely no right to tell someone they're playing the game wrong. For people who don't care about the FTF side game, a lot of you posted here in this FTF-oriented topic. Why? Just to preach against the way some people play? If so, that's pretty sad. Ideally, all posters in this topic should have been those who do play this side game. Those who don't can add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

 

Everyone, please, please, please, think about what you're doing when you post in the forums. If you can't add anything to a discussion or have no interest in the topic at hand, simply don't post. Move on to another topic. Jumping on the opinions of others is just plain wrong. There's no such thing as a wrong opinion.

 

</rant>

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Everyone, please, please, please, think about what you're doing when you post in the forums.

 

AT, I think you missed the crossed line here if you think the FTF game was the cause of push-back.

[knowschad]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

 

If the lesson you learned is to not ask opinions, but to leave forum posting to my husband, then I think perhaps you learned the wrong lesson.

[+tozainamboku]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

It's very unfortunate that, yet again, some forum regulars have piled on and chased someone away from the forums.

 

The OP's post made it pretty clear that they subscribe to the FTF side game. Of all the posts in here, mine was the only one giving any support. Almost all of the other posts basically attacked and ridiculed the OP for participating in the side game.

 

As is often pointed out in the forums (but forgotten equally as often), everyone can play the game the way they want. There is a segment of the community that plays the FTF side game. Why can't they choose to play that way? If you don't want to participate in that side game, feel free to ignore it, but you have absolutely no right to tell someone they're playing the game wrong. For people who don't care about the FTF side game, a lot of you posted here in this FTF-oriented topic. Why? Just to preach against the way some people play? If so, that's pretty sad. Ideally, all posters in this topic should have been those who do play this side game. Those who don't can add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

 

Everyone, please, please, please, think about what you're doing when you post in the forums. If you can't add anything to a discussion or have no interest in the topic at hand, simply don't post. Move on to another topic. Jumping on the opinions of others is just plain wrong. There's no such thing as a wrong opinion.

 

</rant>

I found it somewhat curious that nobody supported the FTF game, but I didn't see it as piling on. The OP came back to say she took this as a learning experience (though perhaps one that rings of the "I didn't get the answer I was looking for" that we often see in cases like this).

 

Once upon a time FTF was quite different then today. When there were fewer cachers, even easy to get to urban hides might sit days before a find. Cache owners really wanted to get feedback on their caches, so they began leaving special FTF prizes in the cache and recognizing the FTF on the cache page, but this was never a requirement not was it done on the majority of caches.

 

The idea of FTF competition came along much later. I tend to think of a time when a competitive newbie would see cachers with a few thousand finds and it seemed impossible to "catch up". But they saw the FTF as something of a level game where everyone had the same chance of getting the FTF if they really tried. With that began complaints about cachere who gave out coordinates prior to publication or who requested that FTF be reserved for a certain person. Of course while pointing out that there is no competition, Groundspeak stoked the competition by selling FTF swag and creating instant notifications. It's hard for some competitive newbies to imagine there was ever a time when FTF was not a competitive thing. And almost as hard to imagine that there are no "official" rules or even an agreed upon etiquette.

Edited August 1, 2012 by tozainamboku

[+CanadianRockies]

As is often pointed out in the forums (but forgotten equally as often), everyone can play the game the way they want. There is a segment of the community that plays the FTF side game. Why can't they choose to play that way? If you don't want to participate in that side game, feel free to ignore it, but you have absolutely no right to tell someone they're playing the game wrong.

The OP can choose to play the FTF side game. But they need to be aware that others might opt to either ignore that game or play it differently. If a cache owner wants to let someone log a find before their cache is published, then they shouldn't be told they are playing the game wrong. The source of the OP's angst is that others aren't playing the FTF game the way they want them to.

[+The_Incredibles_]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, you asked us ours and got it. I haven't read every single sentence, but it seems to me, most people on this thread were generally being respectful while stating their opinions.

[+BlueDeuce]

Almost all of the other posts basically attacked and ridiculed the OP for participating in the side game.

 

Seemed to me they were saying don't worry about it so much.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Almost all of the other posts basically attacked and ridiculed the OP for participating in the side game.

 

Seemed to me they were saying don't worry about it so much.

 

+1

[+The A-Team]

After re-reading the posts in here, I admit I may have gone a bit far, and I apologize.

 

However, I still stand by my question that if you freely admit that you don't care about FTF, why did you come to a topic all about FTFs?

[4wheelin_fool]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

Well isn't that just great. The "Order of finds" angsty thread died only after a few days, and now the OP of this thread gave up after realizing that their opinion may not be so popular. When is the next "Bring back virtuals" thread scheduled?

[+WarNinjas]

I like to play the FTF game. Not really for the numbers but it adds fun for me to see the email and try and race out to get it. If I see it has been found I might save it for the streak for a puzzle cache that requires a streak. We have done the 1 year streak but there is another cache that requires 1 year in a calendar year during leap year so we are working on that but will still go for a FTF. If I get there and am not first to find no big deal and even if it was signed before being published I wouldn't worry about it.

I might go place some caches with someone that are boat to only. Both placing different ones. I was thinking of signing the log a few spaces down so I didn't have to boat back out there to find it but not claim FTF for them. I'm not sure if that would be the right thing to do but that was my thought on it. I guess I could boat back out there after is was published if that is the right way to do it.

WarNinjas

[+OZ2CPU]

we are alot of people in my area who play the FTF game, and play it fair

this way it is alot of fun to all people,

it is a gentlemans sport, and we put a alot of respect into it,

A pre-release tester, also known as a beta tester is (in our game) not able to claim FTF

he can offcourse log it as found, and do this with BETA TESTER and then his log.

 

We newer reveal anything to our geofriends nor help anyone at all,

before a cache have been found the first time.

 

anyone friends or family or kids finding a cache before it is released on the website or NOT a part of the FTF game.

at events caches are released to a group before official release, THEY are now a part of the FTF game, and can claim it,

you can only win in any game, if all people playing, start at the same time.

Edited August 1, 2012 by OZ2CPU

[cezanne]

A pre-release tester, also known as a beta tester is (in our game) not able to claim FTF

he can offcourse log it as found, and do this with BETA TESTER and then his log.

 

Note that first to find is nothing which results from being claimed. It just happens. Of course you can set up your own private competition and then

celebrate the one who finds a cache as first after publishment, but this does not mean that this person is necessarily the first to find the cache.

Quite often muggles are those who find a cache as first ones and they do not even need to write an entry in the log book.

 

Someone who finds a caches as second person after a betatester, cannot be the first to find a cache - that's a contradiction in itself and not related to fairness, but to proper use of the English language and logical reasoning.

 

Cezanne

[+nthacker66]

After re-reading the posts in here, I admit I may have gone a bit far, and I apologize.

 

However, I still stand by my question that if you freely admit that you don't care about FTF, why did you come to a topic all about FTFs?

 

For some who have been around the game for a bit and who don't playthe FTF game, it is still an intriguing topic to discuss. I have no issues with FTF. I do not personally play it, but act more as a spectator and enjoy watching it unfold. I enjoy enjoy it on caches where thought was put into it (could care less about gaurd rail caches and power trail FTF's).

[+nthacker66]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

 

If the lesson you learned is to not ask opinions, but to leave forum posting to my husband, then I think perhaps you learned the wrong lesson.

 

If you are suggesting these forums are a welcoming and non toxic environment and everyone is welcome, then I have some beach front property in arizona I want to sell you ;-)

[cezanne]

Once upon a time FTF was quite different then today. When there were fewer cachers, even easy to get to urban hides might sit days before a find. Cache owners really wanted to get feedback on their caches, so they began leaving special FTF prizes in the cache and recognizing the FTF on the cache page, but this was never a requirement not was it done on the majority of caches.

 

I find interesting what you write. It took years until I encountered the first mention of FTFs on cache pages and FTF prizes/certificates also popped up in my area many years later and not in the beginning when there were only few cachers and caches.

 

I even recall that a local cacher replied to each visitor of his caches for quite some time while nowadays often the interest into logs and caches reduces considerably after they have been found at least once.

 

So it appears to be a regional thing.

 

Cezanne

[knowschad]

yes, I removed my response! I learned my lesson... my opinion is wrong! Got it! There will be nothing more from me! I will leave forum posting to my husband instead!

 

If the lesson you learned is to not ask opinions, but to leave forum posting to my husband, then I think perhaps you learned the wrong lesson.

 

If you are suggesting these forums are a welcoming and non toxic environment and everyone is welcome, then I have some beach front property in arizona I want to sell you ;-)

 

If all you are referring to is the posts in this thread, then how much is that beach front property?