Cache Owner Won't Post Accurate Order of Found!

July 31, 2012

GC33QNA - My daughter and a bunch of others recently finished off this challenge cache in our area. Though my youngest was the official and actual 3rd to find, and my son the 4th to find (they had to go to the final before the rest of the group that had worked through a lot of the challenge together, because they were leaving on vacation with their dad before the rest could finish the last hike), the owners have refused to post an accurate list of the order of finds. I have posted on the cache page twice asking them about it, and they just delete my posts without any response to the post or the private e-mails that I have sent. It has been a number of weeks, so they have had plenty of time to fix it. My daughter's log includes a picture of the physical log.

2.4k · July 31, 2012

There's a whole whack of completions dated June 22 - I suppose that could be a joint third place for all? I think it is neat that she completed the challenge, a tricky one, and is only 10! I would concentrate more on that positive aspect. It must be frustrating, but the evidence is in the log, and in the photo posted. You and she know how things really are - and that sometimes mistakes happen. Should it be rectified? Up to the CO, but I would be sorely tempted to leave it at just FTF to avoid this kind of misunderstanding.

July 31, 2012

OK. So she was the third to complete it. She posted it in the log. Yes, the page is wrong but is it really that big of deal? Not trying to be harsh or anything but it's not like it's a race for an FTF.

Flame me if you wish. I'll just make more popcorn for some of the other threads.

18.9k · July 31, 2012

...and the order matters -- why??

10.2k · July 31, 2012

Is this some Pacific NW thing? Who has even heard of an "order of found"? Don't mean to be a wise guy, but I'd just forget about it.

July 31, 2012

BTW, she REALLY kicked butt on that challenge, too! It included a 13 mile hike, as well as a number of other challenging caches - PRETTY DARN AWESOME for a 10-year old! She deserves the credit she EARNED! Her brother did extremely well, too, not taking anything away from him. He's ony 14.

July 31, 2012

Because she earned it! If they're going to post an order, it should be accurate!

...and the order matters -- why??

9.1k · July 31, 2012

There are no listing guidelines or site terms of use mandating that an owner "accurately" recognize FTF, STF, etc.

If I were the owner of this challenge, I would delete the entire table and just let the logs speak for themselves. It would avoid angsty emails, log deletions and forum threads -- none of which fit my definition of "fun."

July 31, 2012

I agree, and they may just do that. BUT... as long as they ARE posting the order, they should be accurate!

There are no listing guidelines or site terms of use mandating that an owner "accurately" recognize FTF, STF, etc.

If I were the owner of this challenge, I would delete the entire table and just let the logs speak for themselves. It would avoid angsty emails, log deletions and forum threads -- none of which fit my definition of "fun."

Edited July 31, 2012 by Dragon's Passion 4 Caching

2k · July 31, 2012

who cares, fourth, fifth, third, does it really matter? I can understand caring for first a bit, but really, I can't see the big deal to the CO. They were all the same date after all, I would consider it more a list than a Daytona 500 finish line thing.

Edited July 31, 2012 by lamoracke

18.9k · July 31, 2012

Because she earned it! If they're going to post an order, it should be accurate!

...and the order matters -- why??

Again - I'm sorry - earned what??

3k · July 31, 2012

You are obviously proud of the accomplishments of your children.

A cache owner not changing their cache page to match your view of your children's accomplishments shouldn't change anything.

I don't have a horse in this race and don't know if there are other factors in the CO's reluctance to update their cache listing to satisfy your expectations, but if I was in your situation I'd simply tell my kids they did great, and move on.

10.2k · July 31, 2012

BTW, she REALLY kicked butt on that challenge, too! It included a 13 mile hike, as well as a number of other challenging caches - PRETTY DARN AWESOME for a 10-year old! She deserves the credit she EARNED! Her brother did extremely well, too, not taking anything away from him. He's ony 14.

Boy, this is a PMO cache, and this guy is going to get page views from all over the world now. I've looked at it twice. :laughing: So it appears your kids don't have registered accounts? I suppose it would stand to reason they are not listed.

Again, not being harsh, but I've never heard of such a thing as order of found, and couldn't care less about it. Don't the logs give you order of found?

July 31, 2012

My kids DO have registered acounts, have since 2005, just like me (oldest had to start a new one recently as he lost old e-mail password). However, our family cannot afford to have Premium Member accounts for each of us. Groundspeak's stance (I asked directly) is that they ARE legal to log Premium Member caches. In our area, it is not uncommon to even place a banner with the found order on it. I understand order isn't the biggest thing. BUT... if they are going to place a list, they should give the credit in the order it was accomplished. It's a tough challenge, and for a 10-year old to complete it when very few others,even the state's top cachers, have... Her excitement was great at its completion. It's like telling her the ribbon was taken away because the CO won't play fair. Nice lesson to teach the kids, huh?

BTW, she REALLY kicked butt on that challenge, too! It included a 13 mile hike, as well as a number of other challenging caches - PRETTY DARN AWESOME for a 10-year old! She deserves the credit she EARNED! Her brother did extremely well, too, not taking anything away from him. He's ony 14.

Boy, this is a PMO cache, and this guy is going to get page views from all over the world now. I've looked at it twice. So it appears your kids don't have registered accounts? I suppose it would stand to reason they are not listed.

Again, not being harsh, but I've never heard of such a thing as order of found, and couldn't care less about it. Don't the logs give you order of found?

July 31, 2012

A perfect example as to why I try to avoid these types of caches.

Every cache stands on it's own to me, even if the owner wants to make a bunch of hoops before logging it. I will just find it and skip the "found it" all together.

I also paw through the swag.. ha!

Shaun

7.8k · July 31, 2012

...they had to go to the final before the rest of the group that had worked through a lot of the challenge together, because they were leaving on vacation with their dad before the rest could finish the last hike...

Just to be clear, are you saying they signed the log before completing the challenge? There's nothing wrong with that, but the order of signatures in the physical log of a challenge cache doesn't necessarily reflect the order of completion. In the context of challenge caches, completion entails signing the log AND satisfying the challenge requirements. Only at the moment that both of these have been satisfied does it become completed. Coming up with an accurate order of completion is extremely difficult, especially if there are multiple completions on the same day. If a bunch of people sign the log early, then later satisfy the challenge requirements on the same day, how do you know what order they completed it in? The order in the log? Nope. The order they logged it online? Not necessarily, because some people may get to their computer faster than others.

Because she earned it! If they're going to post an order, it should be accurate!

...and the order matters -- why??

Again - I'm sorry - earned what??

They earned a smiley. Here's the one the 10-year-old earned:

At no point should anyone expect to "earn" anything more than that for finding a cache. Anything beyond a smiley is a bonus and completely at the discretion of the cache owner.

July 31, 2012

A perfect example as to why I try to avoid these types of caches.

Every cache stands on it's own to me, even if the owner wants to make a bunch of hoops before logging it. I will just find it and skip the "found it" all together.

I also paw through the swag.. ha!

Shaun

18.9k · July 31, 2012

... Her excitement was great at its completion. It's like telling her the ribbon was taken away because the CO won't play fair. Nice lesson to teach the kids, huh?

...

So the accomplishment is somehow diminished now??? What if they were 11th or 12th to do it - or the guy that will be 5,321st 42 years from now?? Same challenge.

I don't get it.

3k · July 31, 2012

It's like telling her the ribbon was taken away because the CO won't play fair. Nice lesson to teach the kids, huh?

Your children satisfied the challenge, and found the final cache, and signed the log.

As long as their "Found it" logs appear on the cache page, their accomplishment is there for them (and the rest of the world) to see, and anything else shouldn't (and doesn't) really matter.

You can chose to teach your children that their accomplishments are only valid if strangers on the Internet say so when they update their cache listings in such a way that reflects some unofficial ordering, but I personally wouldn't handle it that way.

July 31, 2012

No, I am NOT saying they signed the final before they completed the challenge! They certainly did NOT cheat! That would negate the value of completing anything. It's only fun if you play hard and play fair. You have not completed a challenge if you cheat at it, and my kids know the would only be cheating themselves and me, if they did cheat. The two kids had already done the hike in the fall (GCF32) that the rest of the group had not. So, they completed the requirements TO log the final the day before the rest of them completed the requirements of the challenge by hiking to their final requirement (GC22D2). The two kids went to the final in the morning, left for vacation at 3:00 pm, and the others did their final hike (GCF32) in the evening after some of them got off work and they were able to drive out and hike it. Then, the rest of the finishers went to the final in the late evening.

...they had to go to the final before the rest of the group that had worked through a lot of the challenge together, because they were leaving on vacation with their dad before the rest could finish the last hike...

Just to be clear, are you saying they signed the log before completing the challenge? There's nothing wrong with that, but the order of signatures in the physical log of a challenge cache doesn't necessarily reflect the order of completion. In the context of challenge caches, completion entails signing the log AND satisfying the challenge requirements. Only at the moment that both of these have been satisfied does it become completed. Coming up with an accurate order of completion is extremely difficult, especially if there are multiple completions on the same day. If a bunch of people sign the log early, then later satisfy the challenge requirements on the same day, how do you know what order they completed it in? The order in the log? Nope. The order they logged it online? Not necessarily, because some people may get to their computer faster than others.

Because she earned it! If they're going to post an order, it should be accurate!

...and the order matters -- why??

Again - I'm sorry - earned what??

They earned a smiley. Here's the one the 10-year-old earned:

At no point should anyone expect to "earn" anything more than that for finding a cache. Anything beyond a smiley is a bonus and completely at the discretion of the cache owner.

38.2k · July 31, 2012

No, I am NOT saying they signed the final before they completed the challenge! They certainly did NOT cheat! That would negate the value of completing anything. It's only fun if you play hard and play fair. You have not completed a challenge if you cheat at it, and my kids know the would only be cheating themselves and me, if they did cheat. The two kids had already done the hike in the fall (GCF32) that the rest of the group had not. So, they completed the requirements TO log the final the day before the rest of them completed the requirements of the challenge by hiking to their final requirement (GC22D2). The two kids went to the final in the morning, left for vacation at 3:00 pm, and the others did their final hike (GCF32) in the evening after some of them got off work and they were able to drive out and hike it. Then, the rest of the finishers went to the final in the late evening.

...they had to go to the final before the rest of the group that had worked through a lot of the challenge together, because they were leaving on vacation with their dad before the rest could finish the last hike...

Just to be clear, are you saying they signed the log before completing the challenge? There's nothing wrong with that, but the order of signatures in the physical log of a challenge cache doesn't necessarily reflect the order of completion. In the context of challenge caches, completion entails signing the log AND satisfying the challenge requirements. Only at the moment that both of these have been satisfied does it become completed. Coming up with an accurate order of completion is extremely difficult, especially if there are multiple completions on the same day. If a bunch of people sign the log early, then later satisfy the challenge requirements on the same day, how do you know what order they completed it in? The order in the log? Nope. The order they logged it online? Not necessarily, because some people may get to their computer faster than others.

Because she earned it! If they're going to post an order, it should be accurate!

...and the order matters -- why??

Again - I'm sorry - earned what??

They earned a smiley. Here's the one the 10-year-old earned:

At no point should anyone expect to "earn" anything more than that for finding a cache. Anything beyond a smiley is a bonus and completely at the discretion of the cache owner.

The most important question is did they have fun? If they did then what will an arbitrary award add to the experience? It could be an opportunity for teaching experience - take control of your own enjoyment and don't worry about what others do or think.

July 31, 2012

Am I missing something here? The kids still got credit for the find so who cares about the find order list? Is this some big deal in your area? Also you question what this " injustice" teaches kids, well I question what lesson you are teaching them by reacting like this over such a petty thing.

1.4k · July 31, 2012

I have a very different question about the cache. How did it get approved? I can't see how it is a mystery cache, rather it is a traditional cache with an ALR. It is my understanding that requiring an ALR to log a find was eliminated long before the cache was published in Sept 2011. What am I missing?

Note that I am not against this type of cache, indeed, I would like to see both ALRs and Virtuals return. Both would be a refreshing change to the proliferation of LPC and Bison in a Bush type caches.

7.8k · July 31, 2012

No, I am NOT saying they signed the final before they completed the challenge! They certainly did NOT cheat!

No one in this discussion has said they cheated. Signing the log ahead of time for challenge caches is a widespread and generally accepted practice. To be honest, I can't say that I've ever seen a challenge cache that expressly forbid that practice.

Anyway, like others have said, she completed the challenge and her log accurately records her claim of 3TF. Use this as a lesson that it's the accomplishment that matters, not some arbitrary record of it on a website.

7.8k · July 31, 2012

I have a very different question about the cache. How did it get approved? I can't see how it is a mystery cache, rather it is a traditional cache with an ALR. It is my understanding that requiring an ALR to log a find was eliminated long before the cache was published in Sept 2011. What am I missing?

3.1. Logging of All Physical Geocaches

Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

An exception is Challenge Caches, which may only be logged online after the log is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented to the cache owner as per instructions on the published listing. Other than documenting a Challenge Cache, physical caches cannot require geocachers to contact anyone.

July 31, 2012

What I am trying to teach them is that if there is something that they should get credit for, they get it. If the CO posts an order, it should reflect an accurate order of finds. No, this isn't world record material, here, but do you feel the same about other lists? The Olympics are on right now. Does it matter what order someone finishes the race? They don't really DO anything any different. They ran the same race, just a bit faster than the next guy! So, does it "matter" who came in first, second, third... Competition is competition for a reason. It's part of our way of life. Sure, there are higher stakes for the Olympics ($, fame, etc.), but the basic concept is the same.

And, yes, it can be a feather in your cap around here, and other places judging by people's logs of "FTF!" to get something completed in a timely manner. If the CO is going to post an order of completion, they should not just randomly place a list! The logs themselves would show a list. Placing it up in the cache write-up, it should be an accurate list.

Am I missing something here? The kids still got credit for the find so who cares about the find order list? Is this some big deal in your area? Also you question what this " injustice" teaches kids, well I question what lesson you are teaching them by reacting like this over such a petty thing.

1.4k · July 31, 2012

I have a very different question about the cache. How did it get approved? I can't see how it is a mystery cache, rather it is a traditional cache with an ALR. It is my understanding that requiring an ALR to log a find was eliminated long before the cache was published in Sept 2011. What am I missing?

3.1. Logging of All Physical Geocaches

Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

An exception is Challenge Caches, which may only be logged online after the log is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented to the cache owner as per instructions on the published listing. Other than documenting a Challenge Cache, physical caches cannot require geocachers to contact anyone.

I'm aware of that part but thought the next paragraph set a date beyond which such new caches would not be approved. To me, the relationship of the two paragraphs isn't clear, but I accept your understanding of it. Thanks.

2.4k · July 31, 2012

Perhaps this is a good time for the lesson on them not counting on external validation.

THEY KNOW they completed the challenge. They should feel good about that and not need a cache owner to validate whether they should feel good about the challenge or not.

July 31, 2012

I think it's considered a challenge cache, though not listed as the new types of challenges. You must meet the challenge by finding all of the other caches listed. We have a lot of those here, where you have to meet the requirements. That IS the unknown part of the cache. If you check the cache page, the cache requirements changed as the CO was made aware that they had a cache listed that wasn't even in our county! Then, another cache was brought to light after a different cache was listed as the next oldest. So, the CO changed the requirements after others did some research, and morphed the original to new and more requirements.

I have a very different question about the cache. How did it get approved? I can't see how it is a mystery cache, rather it is a traditional cache with an ALR. It is my understanding that requiring an ALR to log a find was eliminated long before the cache was published in Sept 2011. What am I missing?

3.1. Logging of All Physical Geocaches

Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

An exception is Challenge Caches, which may only be logged online after the log is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented to the cache owner as per instructions on the published listing. Other than documenting a Challenge Cache, physical caches cannot require geocachers to contact anyone.

July 31, 2012

Oh, they know, and we celebrated!! But, like I said on the other reply, they deserve the online recognition if it is given to others. What does THAT teach them, that other people should get credited with 3rd and 4th when they actually placed in that order? In a school, if there is a Spelling Bee, should 3rd place be given to #7?

Perhaps this is a good time for the lesson on them not counting on external validation.

THEY KNOW they completed the challenge. They should feel good about that and not need a cache owner to validate whether they should feel good about the challenge or not.

July 31, 2012

I have a very different question about the cache. How did it get approved? I can't see how it is a mystery cache, rather it is a traditional cache with an ALR. It is my understanding that requiring an ALR to log a find was eliminated long before the cache was published in Sept 2011. What am I missing?

3.1. Logging of All Physical Geocaches

Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

An exception is Challenge Caches, which may only be logged online after the log is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented to the cache owner as per instructions on the published listing. Other than documenting a Challenge Cache, physical caches cannot require geocachers to contact anyone.

I'm aware of that part but thought the next paragraph set a date beyond which such new caches would not be approved. To me, the relationship of the two paragraphs isn't clear, but I accept your understanding of it. Thanks.

Yeah, the new Challenges make it confusing, I guess. We have a LOT of them here, and I saw a bunch listed in another state today while was planning a trip. So, I think that's what's commonly accepted. I hink the ALR's are to avoid people demanding that you ride a helicopter to their cache to log it, etc.

2.4k · July 31, 2012

Oh, they know, and we celebrated!! But, like I said on the other reply, they deserve the online recognition if it is given to others. What does THAT teach them, that other people should get credited with 3rd and 4th when they actually placed in that order? In a school, if there is a Spelling Bee, should 3rd place be given to #7?

Perhaps this is a good time for the lesson on them not counting on external validation.

THEY KNOW they completed the challenge. They should feel good about that and not need a cache owner to validate whether they should feel good about the challenge or not.

Then perhaps the lesson is that the world is a very unfair place and that needs to not take away from their own joy and sense of accomplishment.

There are a lot of unfair people in the world and we can't change them.

Personally, I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Show them how to deal with unfair people with your head up and being unconcerned with what others do.

July 31, 2012

...take control of your own enjoyment and don't worry about what others do or think.

I have to agree with that wholeheartedly. Don't send the message to your children that by someone denying you some imaginary reward that they somehow didn't do something they should be proud of. Let people hold fast to their ideals but help your kids to take pride in their accomplishments whether or not they are perceived the same way by others. If they enjoyed themselves while also facing a challenge, then mission accomplished.

July 31, 2012

Although I agree with you on most of that, I also believe that nothing changes if people don't stand up for what's right.

This CO is the very same person that kept contacting me a few years ago when a local cacher logged a bunch of caches that he didn't do (200+). He thought it was my job to play cache police, telling this guy to delete his logs! I told him that it didn't matter to me, that if he wanted to tell him, he could do so. But, as far as I was concerned, all his logging those caches meant was that his score didn't mean anything at all. So, wanting caching to be on the up-and-up, isn't it right that his very own cache page reflect what really happened? (BTW, my two kids are over visiting their father during all of this. It's me, fighting for them and what's right.)

Oh, they know, and we celebrated!! But, like I said on the other reply, they deserve the online recognition if it is given to others. What does THAT teach them, that other people should get credited with 3rd and 4th when they actually placed in that order? In a school, if there is a Spelling Bee, should 3rd place be given to #7?

Perhaps this is a good time for the lesson on them not counting on external validation.

THEY KNOW they completed the challenge. They should feel good about that and not need a cache owner to validate whether they should feel good about the challenge or not.

Then perhaps the lesson is that the world is a very unfair place and that needs to not take away from their own joy and sense of accomplishment.

There are a lot of unfair people in the world and we can't change them.

Personally, I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Show them how to deal with unfair people with your head up and being unconcerned with what others do.

7.8k · July 31, 2012

The Olympics are on right now. Does it matter what order someone finishes the race? They don't really DO anything any different. They ran the same race, just a bit faster than the next guy! So, does it "matter" who came in first, second, third... Competition is competition for a reason. It's part of our way of life. Sure, there are higher stakes for the Olympics ($, fame, etc.), but the basic concept is the same.

The concepts aren't at all the same. Never confuse geocaching with a competition. Athletes go to the Olympics with the intent to compete for awards. Geocachers go find caches with the intent to find caches. Any additional competitive elements added to geocaching are not the primary intent and are completely unofficial.

Anyway, there's nothing any of us can do to change what has happened with that cache. The only person that can do that is the owner. If they won't, then it's case closed. Time to move on and find some more caches.

5.2k · July 31, 2012

DP4C, you're just making yourself look bad here.

My suggestion.

1. Pour yourself a stuff drink.

2. Drink it.

3. Forget about this nonsense. It doesn't matter.

2.8k · July 31, 2012

Although I agree with you on most of that, I also believe that nothing changes if people don't stand up for what's right.

This CO is the very same person that kept contacting me a few years ago when a local cacher logged a bunch of caches that he didn't do (200+). He thought it was my job to play cache police, telling this guy to delete his logs! I told him that it didn't matter to me, that if he wanted to tell him, he could do so. But, as far as I was concerned, all his logging those caches meant was that his score didn't mean anything at all. So, wanting caching to be on the up-and-up, isn't it right that his very own cache page reflect what really happened? (BTW, my two kids are over visiting their father during all of this. It's me, fighting for them and what's right.)

Oh, they know, and we celebrated!! But, like I said on the other reply, they deserve the online recognition if it is given to others. What does THAT teach them, that other people should get credited with 3rd and 4th when they actually placed in that order? In a school, if there is a Spelling Bee, should 3rd place be given to #7?

Perhaps this is a good time for the lesson on them not counting on external validation.

THEY KNOW they completed the challenge. They should feel good about that and not need a cache owner to validate whether they should feel good about the challenge or not.

Then perhaps the lesson is that the world is a very unfair place and that needs to not take away from their own joy and sense of accomplishment.

There are a lot of unfair people in the world and we can't change them.

Personally, I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Show them how to deal with unfair people with your head up and being unconcerned with what others do.

As a CO it is your job to play cache police and validate logs, seems rules were important to him and you snuffed him now karma got you back. What lesson did you teach your kids when your caches were armchair logged and you did nothing about it?

Edited July 31, 2012 by Roman!

July 31, 2012

Well, I think those that don't care about the order should cache that way. But, there are many of us who do. And, if the CO is going to post an order, they should post an accurate list. I think those that don't care about injustice for great kids, who worked their buns of to finish something are the ones that "look bad." I'm not much of a drinker, maybe that's why having things done right and fair are more important to me. Maybe you should have the "stuff drink" and not worry about anything that doesn't matter to you.

DP4C, you're just making yourself look bad here.

My suggestion.

1. Pour yourself a stuff drink.

2. Drink it.

3. Forget about this nonsense. It doesn't matter.

July 31, 2012

They weren't MY caches that got logged. Had they been MY caches, it would have been MY business. They weren't, it wasn't. It was up to those CO's to tend to their own caches. He just wanted me to take this guy on because he was miffed about the bogus logs. NOT MY PROBLEM. He had the option to contact those CO's or the guy himself - NOT me.

Although I agree with you on most of that, I also believe that nothing changes if people don't stand up for what's right.

This CO is the very same person that kept contacting me a few years ago when a local cacher logged a bunch of caches that he didn't do (200+). He thought it was my job to play cache police, telling this guy to delete his logs! I told him that it didn't matter to me, that if he wanted to tell him, he could do so. But, as far as I was concerned, all his logging those caches meant was that his score didn't mean anything at all. So, wanting caching to be on the up-and-up, isn't it right that his very own cache page reflect what really happened? (BTW, my two kids are over visiting their father during all of this. It's me, fighting for them and what's right.)

Oh, they know, and we celebrated!! But, like I said on the other reply, they deserve the online recognition if it is given to others. What does THAT teach them, that other people should get credited with 3rd and 4th when they actually placed in that order? In a school, if there is a Spelling Bee, should 3rd place be given to #7?

Perhaps this is a good time for the lesson on them not counting on external validation.

THEY KNOW they completed the challenge. They should feel good about that and not need a cache owner to validate whether they should feel good about the challenge or not.

Then perhaps the lesson is that the world is a very unfair place and that needs to not take away from their own joy and sense of accomplishment.

There are a lot of unfair people in the world and we can't change them.

Personally, I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Show them how to deal with unfair people with your head up and being unconcerned with what others do.

As a CO it is your job to play cache police and validate logs, seems rules were important to him and you snuffed him now karma got you back. What lesson did you teach your kids when your caches were armchair logged and you did nothing about it?

July 31, 2012

The Olympics are on right now. Does it matter what order someone finishes the race? They don't really DO anything any different. They ran the same race, just a bit faster than the next guy! So, does it "matter" who came in first, second, third... Competition is competition for a reason. It's part of our way of life. Sure, there are higher stakes for the Olympics ($, fame, etc.), but the basic concept is the same.

The concepts aren't at all the same. Never confuse geocaching with a competition. Athletes go to the Olympics with the intent to compete for awards. Geocachers go find caches with the intent to find caches. Any additional competitive elements added to geocaching are not the primary intent and are completely unofficial.

Anyway, there's nothing any of us can do to change what has happened with that cache. The only person that can do that is the owner. If they won't, then it's case closed. Time to move on and find some more caches.

Well, as long as there are "awards" posted on the cache page, they should be given out as they are "earned". And, the "intent" of caching is whatever each cacher makes it. Some go for numbers, some for hiking, some power trails, some challenges, etc. If the CO has a list on the page, he should be listing the finders in the order they actually "earned". If you don't care about order, at least care about fair and right. Maybe if enough people DID care, people like this wouldn't do this kind of stuff. You apparently don't. And, you're right, it's time to move on. Goodnight.

1.2k · July 31, 2012

...and the order matters -- why??

Are you one of those kids that has a whole bunch of trophies for just showing up?

You believe that the kid who got last place should get the same size trophy as the kid who got first place?

You think competition is bad for your self esteem?

You don't think first place should be recognized because it makes the last place person feel bad?

THATS WHY!

If you still don't get it, maybe we should call off the Olympics and just send all of them home with gold medals.

1.2k · July 31, 2012

The concepts aren't at all the same. Never confuse geocaching with a competition. Athletes go to the Olympics with the intent to compete for awards.

The concept is exactly the same.

If a CO is publishing a list of the order of completion, then by those very actions completing the tasks in a timely manor IS a competition, and getting your name on the list is a reward.

6.1k · July 31, 2012

The Olympics are on right now. Does it matter what order someone finishes the race? They don't really DO anything any different. They ran the same race, just a bit faster than the next guy! So, does it "matter" who came in first, second, third... Competition is competition for a reason. It's part of our way of life. Sure, there are higher stakes for the Olympics ($, fame, etc.), but the basic concept is the same.

The concepts aren't at all the same. Never confuse geocaching with a competition. Athletes go to the Olympics with the intent to compete for awards. Geocachers go find caches with the intent to find caches. Any additional competitive elements added to geocaching are not the primary intent and are completely unofficial.

Anyway, there's nothing any of us can do to change what has happened with that cache. The only person that can do that is the owner. If they won't, then it's case closed. Time to move on and find some more caches.

Well, as long as there are "awards" posted on the cache page, they should be given out as they are "earned". And, the "intent" of caching is whatever each cacher makes it. Some go for numbers, some for hiking, some power trails, some challenges, etc. If the CO has a list on the page, he should be listing the finders in the order they actually "earned". If you don't care about order, at least care about fair and right. Maybe if enough people DID care, people like this wouldn't do this kind of stuff. You apparently don't. And, you're right, it's time to move on. Goodnight.

Well, you are absolutely correct. They definitely should be listed on the cache page in the correct order.

However if they are not, there is not anything that can be done about it, and it is such a minor issue that making a larger issue out of it will make you wrong.

Edited July 31, 2012 by 4wheelin_fool

1.1k · July 31, 2012

so what did yo learn ?

if log date or log order is important to you.. then log it faster :-)

I personally dont care at all, some of my FTF logs are 3 online logs down,

to me it is still a FTF,

dont need to be fist in online log to me.

I wrote FTF in the log, and all others finders are 2nd 3rd and so one, just the way it is..

cool you learn your kids to play a game, and to play it fair, by the rules,

and fight hard to win and all that,

it is only fun to compeete if there is a chance to win

and to be accepted as a winner if you do win.

Good luck, have fun.

2k · July 31, 2012

An order of finds seems bizarre to me. Other than first, I can't imagine anybody actually caring.

Order on a challenge cache is difficult or impossible to determine. The physical log is only part of the picture. The completion of the actual challenge matters of course, as does online logging.

Perhaps in this case the cache owner only wants to acknowledge premium accounts, as this is a premium cache. In the cache owner's mind, perhaps your daughter was "along for the ride" since she isn't premium.

The cache owner could give recognition to anybody they want for anything, including FTF. I really don't see what the fuss is. I don't want recognition on cache pages for being first, second, third, or 42nd.

I'm thinking my next cache I might randomly award somebody other than the first finder the FTF honors on the cache page.

3.2k · July 31, 2012

Competition is competition for a reason. It's part of our way of life. Sure, there are higher stakes for the Olympics ($, fame, etc.), but the basic concept is the same.

And, yes, it can be a feather in your cap around here, and other places judging by people's logs of "FTF!" to get something completed in a timely manner. If the CO is going to post an order of completion, they should not just randomly place a list! The logs themselves would show a list. Placing it up in the cache write-up, it should be an accurate list.

Herein lies the real problem. Caching is not a competition. If you choose to make it one, fine, however you can't impose it on others.

It does not matter if you are first to find or 207th, you still found the cache. The lesson that should be taught here is that your kids should not care about an arbitrary set of values someone else judges them by but creating the task with character and integrity.

Unfortunately all you are being an example of now is a view that temper tantrums over frivolous things are an acceptable method of trying to get your way. You can be FTF on my cache however, should I choose to award it to the third to find, there is nothing you can do about it. I'll look foolish to others until you start to rant, then it deflects the attention of my issue to you.

You might revisit this quote from your profile page; "It's interesting just how much effort and time some people will put into doing something negative instead of trying to do something positive for the world around them. It really makes you wonder..."

Edited July 31, 2012 by baloo&bd

18.9k · July 31, 2012

...and the order matters -- why??

Are you one of those kids that has a whole bunch of trophies for just showing up?

You believe that the kid who got last place should get the same size trophy as the kid who got first place?

You think competition is bad for your self esteem?

You don't think first place should be recognized because it makes the last place person feel bad?

THATS WHY!

If you still don't get it, maybe we should call off the Olympics and just send all of them home with gold medals.

If Geocaching was a competitive sport - you might actually have a point. In that it isn't - I still wonder about ranking folks that finished a cache 4th vs 10th vs 60th. I can't see the point.

14k · July 31, 2012

...and the order matters -- why??

Are you one of those kids that has a whole bunch of trophies for just showing up?

You believe that the kid who got last place should get the same size trophy as the kid who got first place?

You think competition is bad for your self esteem?

You don't think first place should be recognized because it makes the last place person feel bad?

THATS WHY!

If you still don't get it, maybe we should call off the Olympics and just send all of them home with gold medals.

If Geocaching was a competitive sport - you might actually have a point. In that it isn't - I still wonder about ranking folks that finished a cache 4th vs 10th vs 60th. I can't see the point.

Even though Geocaching is not intended to be a competitive sport, there appears to a be some people that not only insist on making it competitive but get get peeved when they're not awarded for "winning".

In this case, it appears that CO views it as a competition (by using their cache listing to list the order of completion), and the OP has a point that if the CO is going to play the game as a competition they should try to report the results correctly (it's arguable whether or not they have failed to do that). However, to me, the bigger point is what should happen if they feel the game hasn't been played fairly. The lesson learned ought to be some times life isn't fair, you're not rewarded for your accomplishments, and that when that happens, some battles are not worth fighting.

July 31, 2012

...and the order matters -- why??

Are you one of those kids that has a whole bunch of trophies for just showing up?

You believe that the kid who got last place should get the same size trophy as the kid who got first place?

You think competition is bad for your self esteem?

You don't think first place should be recognized because it makes the last place person feel bad?

THATS WHY!

If you still don't get it, maybe we should call off the Olympics and just send all of them home with gold medals.

If Geocaching was a competitive sport - you might actually have a point. In that it isn't - I still wonder about ranking folks that finished a cache 4th vs 10th vs 60th. I can't see the point.

Even though Geocaching is not intended to be a competitive sport, there appears to a be some people that not only insist on making it competitive but get get peeved when they're not awarded for "winning".

In this case, it appears that CO views it as a competition (by using their cache listing to list the order of completion), and the OP has a point that if the CO is going to play the game as a competition they should try to report the results correctly (it's arguable whether or not they have failed to do that). However, to me, the bigger point is what should happen if they feel the game hasn't been played fairly. The lesson learned ought to be some times life isn't fair, you're not rewarded for your accomplishments, and that when that happens, some battles are not worth fighting.

19k · July 31, 2012

BTW, she REALLY kicked butt on that challenge, too! It included a 13 mile hike, as well as a number of other challenging caches - PRETTY DARN AWESOME for a 10-year old! She deserves the credit she EARNED! Her brother did extremely well, too, not taking anything away from him. He's ony 14.

Credit granted. Congratulations to her and her brother. Much applause and high-fives all around. Kudos. Well done and nice going!

Is everybody happy now?

Edited to add: I understand that you are proud of your children and are simply trying to defend their accomplishments.

Edited July 31, 2012 by knowschad

Cache Owner Won't Post Accurate Order of Found!

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