Logging find without signing logbook

[+walkergeoff and wife]

Just recently I have read an increasing number of logs where the cacher has claimed a find and then said that they couldn't sign the log as they had no pen.

 

The essence of caching is that the only proof of a find is that the log is signed. The whole point is lost if this is allowed.

 

What do other cachers think? Do you delete a find if the logbook has not been signed?

[+mellers]

This is one which crops up time and again, and at the end of the day, the decision whether to accept the find or not has to be yours.

 

A lot of people play the game differently and even though the essence of the game is that you should have signed the log to claim the find, for some occasions a certain amount leniency can be preferable. It's obviously more important for a high terrain cache or one which requires you to complete a challenge that the finder has actually signed the log, but if this is the sort of cache where threatening to delete the log could cause more animosity or backlash from a disgruntled player, then sometimes discretion can be the better part of valour.

 

For me, I probably would query it initially. I'd probably send the cacher a message asking him to return to GZ with a pen in the next couple of days to confirm his find and give him the opportunity to sign the log. I wouldn't delete the log straight away and if truth be told, I probably wouldn't delete it at all in the end if it's the first cache of mine they've just forgotten a pen with. I'd probably be less inclined to be helpful though, if it's something they make a habit of. Have you read any of their other logs?

 

Is this someone who is new to the game? How many finds do they have? I'd go easier on a newbie than someone who's been at it for years. Did they make any effort to send you a message to explain what happened, or just just write the on-line log. I'd certainly want to be helpful to anyone who messaged me first rather than someone who just assumed it would be OK.

 

The only time I've been in your shoes, is when a cacher logged a find on one of my caches dated 4 months before it had even been published. Co-incidentally, I'd had to tick back the paper log to the on-line one to try to help the owner of a missing TB track it down, and I also saw this pre-publish-date finder hadn't signed the paper log at all. I sent them a nice message asking if they could remember anything about the find to help me verify their claim, and received a very nice message back saying it had been a mistake, when he'd meant only to log a nearby cache on its own. All sorted with no bad feelings and no grief. Perhaps if you can ask the finder to describe the location exactly, that will put your mind at rest as top whether he actually DID find it.

 

Like I said, the final decision has to be yours, but do be prepared for possible upset on all sides if you do delete it, and certainly don't do so without explanation or giving someone the opportunity to rectify the situation first.

[+MartyBartfast]

Whenever I've been caught without a pen I've made a mark with a muddy stick/spent match etc and mentioned it in the log, there's always something around if you look.

 

Caches where the log book is a mushy mess are another matter, and I'll just claim a find on them.

 

One other incident occurred last week when it was absolutely chucking it down and to open the cache would have ruined the log, so I took a picture of the container with my (work) phone as proof.

[+ayepee]

If I decide to find a cache (usually a drive by and unplanned) and find I have not got a pen, I just leave the cache unfound. If I am on a caching spree I will ALWAYS have a pen as part of my caching kit (just like I will have a GPS or enable phone). So I think that could not sign log due to no pen is a very poor excuse.

 

Tony

[+MartyBartfast]

If I am on a caching spree I will ALWAYS have a pen as part of my caching kit

 

Well I USUALLY carry a pen(cil), but I've dropped them in the field, left them in the last cache I found, and had them (pens) simply run out on me.

[+Brian~!]

I did it very early on in my caching career, I think it was my fifth find - but I took a photo of the cache with my phone to prove I found it.

 

And then about two hundred caches later, I finally went back and signed the log properly.

[+Original A1]

I usually ask them to describe the cache to me, or if they say they've taken a photo, e-mail it to me.

 

There are usually natural resources on hand to use to mark the log book in some way, although I wouldn't advocate Snaik's method in a cache just outside Stirling I found once - he cut his hand and bled all over the paper!

 

[+firestars]

I wonder how many COs even bother to check logs against claimed finds?

 

Not me! I couldn't give two monkies if you sign my logs or not!

 

In my opinion, as long as the FTF is signed, then you can log all my caches from the other end of the country for all I care. It's only yourself you are cheating, no one else.

[+The Patrician]

I seem to recall that I once found a micro that I couldn't unscrew, so I couldn't get at the log. I think I photographed it against a recognisable background and told the CO he could have a look at the photo if he wished. Never heard any more about it.

 

Personally I don't check logs in my cache.

[+refluxmonkey]

I wonder how many COs even bother to check logs against claimed finds?

 

Not me! I couldn't give two monkies if you sign my logs or not!

 

In my opinion, as long as the FTF is signed, then you can log all my caches from the other end of the country for all I care. It's only yourself you are cheating, no one else.

 

The voice of common sense! Seriously guys do you check your logs against signatures? These people are only cheating themselves. If they say they found your cache then they found your cache. It is after all a geocache, part of this hobby we do... They ain't looking for gold bars!

[+thehoomer]

Common sense to you may be. As has already been mentioned, we all play the game differently.....blah blah blah.

Players also vary in the amount of seriousness they apply to it. I would say though, I have only ever deleted 1 legitimate log (the other 2 were a known armchair logger and a cache thief)in the 6 years we have been involved and even though the reason was to protect wildlife, I regret deleting the log. I would do things differently next time and have learned from the experience. As with some of the replies above, I would definitely give the cacher/s in question, chance to rectify first.

[+Original A1]

No, I've never deleted a log either, but if someone indicates in their log that they haven't signed it, I ask for some verification. In fact, someone did that this weekend with only a very small handful of finds (fewer than 10) and I need to chase him/her up because if they're just learning the game, it's probably best to get into good habits early on.

[+Griff Grof]

I don't delete their logs because I'm nice Though I agree the log should always be singed!!

[+The Patrician]

I don't delete their logs because I'm nice Though I agree the log should always be singed!!

 

The log books are often too damp to singe!

[+redsox_mark]

As a cache owner - unless I have some reason to believe the log is "bogus", I would let it stand.

 

As a finder - I almost always have a pen, but yesterday I went out in a hurry and got to GZ without one. I was able to make a somewhat legible signature with some tree bark.

 

Once I found a cache sharing a home with a wasps nest. I had my hands on the cache and then was attacked, and unable to sign. I explained this to the owner and described the cache and the owner agreed I could log it as a find.

 

While signing the log is the usual case, I see it as sort of a technicality. If someone finds a cache and there is a valid reason they can't sign the log I think it is OK.

[+thehoomer]

I don't delete their logs because I'm nice Though I agree the log should always be singed!!

 

The log books are often too damp to singe!

Crying over here !

[+The Blorenges]

I don't delete their logs because I'm nice Though I agree the log should always be singed!!

 

The log books are often too damp to singe!

Crying over here !

 

Don't! You'll make the log book wet.

 

MrsB

[+Stuey]

Is it so wrong for a cacher to expect the cache placer to have had the common sense and decency to leave a pen/cil in the cache along with the log book so people can sign the book? Has this tradition gone away? I know that nano's will probably not have a writing implement available, but I remember wittling a pencil down to the size that would fit in a breath strip container that I placed several years ago.

 

If anyone deleted my log when I'd forgotten a pen (I use muddy thumb prints from time to time) I'd be pretty pee'd off, especially if they'd not been bothered to provide a pen in the first place either.

[+L0ne.R]

Is it so wrong for a cacher to expect the cache placer to have had the common sense and decency to leave a pen/cil in the cache along with the log book so people can sign the book? Has this tradition gone away? I know that nano's will probably not have a writing implement available, but I remember wittling a pencil down to the size that would fit in a breath strip container that I placed several years ago.

 

If anyone deleted my log when I'd forgotten a pen (I use muddy thumb prints from time to time) I'd be pretty pee'd off, especially if they'd not been bothered to provide a pen in the first place either.

 

Same here. I sharpen the pencil then use an exacto blade or a hacksaw to cut it down to size. You can easily get a cut down pencil into a film or pill pot.

But it's becoming rare to see pencils in any cache anymore.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

I have seen us go out caching with half a dozen pen(cils) and not have one left to sign the log book with at the end of the day ... they either get left in caches that don't have one or leave them by accident ect

 

There's always some way to mark the log book to prove you have been there, tear a corner off the back page, tear a circle out of a page, a twig, mud....I once burnt the corner of a page with my lighter, not that I am for one minute suggesting any of you become pyro cachers

 

As for wet caches and caches I can't open I would take a photo or simply put a note on the cache page telling the CO the cache needs attention

 

90% of my caches had pencils in when I set them and they do walk....must remember another trip to Ikea is needed soon

 

M

Edited July 24, 2012 by Us 4 and Jess

[+Pharisee]

....must remember another trip to Ikea is needed soon

 

M

 

My local Argos store does a nifty line in short pencils, too. And if all else fails, the local greyhound racing stadium (which I have been know to visit from time to time) also has a goodly supply of very short ball point pens available.

Not that I'm advocating that you all turn into geo 'tea leafs'... heaven forbid!!

[team tisri]

I figure if I found the cache and can prove it then it's a find. If I didn't happen to have a pen, or lost my pen, or the log was wet and I couldn't sign it, or the container was rusted shut and I couldn't open it, it still counts as a find.

 

If it's a 5/5 rated cache up a tree and I sighted it from the ground, that isn't a find because it's clear from the rating that you are expected to climb the tree to retrieve it (it's not really a DNF either on the basis I did find it but didn't retrieve it, so in cases like that I'd just write a note).

 

If it's a puzzle cache that makes clear that opening the cache is part of the challenge and I didn't manage to open it, then I'd write a note as I didn't complete the find. If it's an ammo box that's rusted and I physically can't open it, I'd count that as a find and just take a picture of the box and log Needs Maintenance.

 

It's a stock answer but a little bit of common sense goes a long way. I haven't claimed very many finds when I didn't sign the log, as far as possible I prove I was there (e.g. by cutting a corner off a log book, or one time I cut a piece of ribbon off a wedding order of service and left that in the cache), and I've never had any trouble with a CO refusing to acknowledge the find. So I guess my approach doesn't ruffle too many feathers.

[+dprovan]

Is it so wrong for a cacher to expect the cache placer to have had the common sense and decency to leave a pen/cil in the cache along with the log book so people can sign the book? Has this tradition gone away?

Yes, the tradition of a writing utensil in the cache has gone away completely. And I'm not crying about it: I've found that a lot of the time any writing utensil left in the cache no longer functions.

 

If anyone deleted my log when I'd forgotten a pen (I use muddy thumb prints from time to time) I'd be pretty pee'd off, especially if they'd not been bothered to provide a pen in the first place either.

Of course there are some militants out there, but I think the main concern here are people claiming a find when they couldn't really get to the log. I think most COs shrug off "no pen, didn't sign", although that always strikes me like, "forgot pants, walked butt naked." (Sure, everyone's done it, but you should still be embarrassed about it.)

[+Us 4 and Jess]

....must remember another trip to Ikea is needed soon

 

M

 

My local Argos store does a nifty line in short pencils, too. And if all else fails, the local greyhound racing stadium (which I have been know to visit from time to time) also has a goodly supply of very short ball point pens available.

Not that I'm advocating that you all turn into geo 'tea leafs'... heaven forbid!!

 

Ways and means John ways and means

 

I remember some well known cachers writing on one of my caches log, that it had started raining while they were out and about so they were off to Ikea to stock up on pencils

 

M

Edited July 25, 2012 by Us 4 and Jess

[+Scarymole]

Having found mostly small urban caches the main thing that stops me signing logs is just that there's either no space or the log isn't in a fit condition to sign, usually because it's wet (very common at the moment). I've always understood the rule is that if you can't sign it take a photo - making sure you don't give the location away too much of course.

 

Incidentally, I always recommend pencils rather than pens for Geocaching as they write vertically... handy when the only hard thing to lean on is a tree or a wall

[team tisri]

If anyone deleted my log when I'd forgotten a pen (I use muddy thumb prints from time to time) I'd be pretty pee'd off, especially if they'd not been bothered to provide a pen in the first place either.

Of course there are some militants out there, but I think the main concern here are people claiming a find when they couldn't really get to the log. I think most COs shrug off "no pen, didn't sign", although that always strikes me like, "forgot pants, walked butt naked." (Sure, everyone's done it, but you should still be embarrassed about it.)

 

Funny mental image there, although I think going out caching and forgetting to put any clothes on is quite a different scenario from an impromptu cache hunt with a smartphone, or if out on a hike and realising there's a cache within 100 feet when you hadn't planned to go caching, or out on a bike ride and realising the little park you stopped to take a rest has a cache on the bench you're sitting on, or whatever.

 

When I'm cycling I almost invariably have a few allen keys and a pencil in my trouser pocket. But sometimes when I change my trousers I get part way around my circuit and realise the allen keys and pencil are sitting on my desk, so if I planned a ride that didn't involve caching but realised I was going so close to one I might as well swing by and grab it I may not always have a pencil. One time I signed a cache log using my own pencil, got to the next cache and wondered where my pencil was. I think I rested it on my saddle as I put the cache back and then it fell off when I got back on the bike. So losing a pencil is a much more likely occurrence than taking my pants off in the forest to take a leak against a tree, and then wandering off having forgotten to put them back on again.

[+Us 4 and Jess]

Of course there are some militants out there, but I think the main concern here are people claiming a find when they couldn't really get to the log. I think most COs shrug off "no pen, didn't sign", although that always strikes me like, "forgot pants, walked butt naked." (Sure, everyone's done it, but you should still be embarrassed about it.)

 

You may be quite surprised how many cachers have been "butt naked" out in the field....and none of them looked embarrassed to me

 

M

[+dprovan]

When I'm cycling I almost invariably have a few allen keys and a pencil in my trouser pocket.

When I do anything, I have a pen in my pocket because, as you point out, you never know when you might need it.

 

You may be quite surprised how many cachers have been "butt naked" out in the field....and none of them looked embarrassed to me

Having cached with one of them, I wouldn't be surprised at all, but there's a difference between intentionally going butt naked and forgetting to wear pants in public.

[+MartyBartfast]

 

You may be quite surprised how many cachers have been "butt naked" out in the field....and none of them looked embarrassed to me

 

M

 

Where did they keep their pen ?!?!?! :blink: :blink:

[+Us 4 and Jess]

:lol: Too funny :lol:

 

M

[+Amberel]

... the tradition of a writing utensil in the cache has gone away completely.

Not completely - every one of my caches started out with a pencil, and when I do maintenance visits it is always replaced if missing or blunt.

 

I've always been very grateful for one cache that had a pencil in it. I'm scared of heights but had abseiled 150 feet down a cliff to a cache, and when I got to it I found that the pen that had been in my pocket had taken the quick way down a further 150 feet right to the bottom. But the cache did have a pencil in it

 

Rgds, Andy

[+dprovan]

Not completely - every one of my caches started out with a pencil, and when I do maintenance visits it is always replaced if missing or blunt.

The tradition is gone, but that doesn't mean there aren't still nice COs that keep a working utensil in their caches. Nor does it mean there aren't seekers that need and appreciate them.

[+dprovan]

Where did they keep their pen ?!?!?! :blink: :blink:

"Oh, shoot: And I forgot a pen, too!" It would make a great log entry...

[+Knights-Templar]

I am new to geocaching and a couple of the caches I have found have not contained a pen/pencil.

 

I am still marking them as found even though I cannot sign the log book but I do add items to the cache.

 

Learnt the lesson that in future always bring a pen with me and a couple of spares to replace in those cache's missing them.

[+Griff Grof]

That's good - learn from your mistakes... you do learn a lot as you transform from a muggle into a cacher

[team tisri]

Of course there are some militants out there, but I think the main concern here are people claiming a find when they couldn't really get to the log. I think most COs shrug off "no pen, didn't sign", although that always strikes me like, "forgot pants, walked butt naked." (Sure, everyone's done it, but you should still be embarrassed about it.)

 

You may be quite surprised how many cachers have been "butt naked" out in the field....and none of them looked embarrassed to me

 

M

 

I assume they were intentionally naked, as opposed to having done something like taken their pants off (for reasons that may or may not be clear to anyone else) and forgotten to put them back on again?

[+Us 4 and Jess]

Of course there are some militants out there, but I think the main concern here are people claiming a find when they couldn't really get to the log. I think most COs shrug off "no pen, didn't sign", although that always strikes me like, "forgot pants, walked butt naked." (Sure, everyone's done it, but you should still be embarrassed about it.)

 

You may be quite surprised how many cachers have been "butt naked" out in the field....and none of them looked embarrassed to me

 

M

 

I assume they were intentionally naked, as opposed to having done something like taken their pants off (for reasons that may or may not be clear to anyone else) and forgotten to put them back on again?

 

Yes they were intentionally naked, raising money for charity, I did a male and female naked Geocachers calendar a few years back....it is surprisingly easy to get cachers to take their clothes off ..... each and everyone person that took part were brilliant sports and I can't thank them enough

 

Mandy

[+Mini-Tap]

Every cacher should have their own pen/pencil. I don't think the CO should provide. Handy if you do. I see a few new guys who always seem to forget the pen. It sets alarm bells ringing.

In my opinion, a cache without an ink log is not valid. I would e mail finder and give him a week, then delete. Less for someone experienced.

[+Lieblweb]

Just today...... I had a pen.... but couldn't physically get the log out of the cache container (tiny container) as it was smashed inside. We were on the river in kayaks....so I took a picture of the container, the water, and part of my kayak - and called it a FIND (I DID not post picture online).

 

I'll know soon enough if the CO isn't happy with that....

Edited August 3, 2012 by Lieblweb

[+Chief301]

Having found mostly small urban caches the main thing that stops me signing logs is just that there's either no space or the log isn't in a fit condition to sign, usually because it's wet (very common at the moment). I've always understood the rule is that if you can't sign it take a photo - making sure you don't give the location away too much of course.

 

Incidentally, I always recommend pencils rather than pens for Geocaching as they write vertically... handy when the only hard thing to lean on is a tree or a wall

 

The photo doesn't have to be posted on the cache page....once or twice I've found containers that were stuck shut, or for some other reason I couldn't sign the log. I'll usually take a pic with my phone or my Oregon 550 and claim the find, stating in my online log that I have pics for confirmation if the CO wants proof. None have ever been deleted or questioned.

 

By the way, Fisher Space Pens write upside down

[+L0ne.R]

Having found mostly small urban caches the main thing that stops me signing logs is just that there's either no space or the log isn't in a fit condition to sign, usually because it's wet (very common at the moment). I've always understood the rule is that if you can't sign it take a photo - making sure you don't give the location away too much of course.

 

Incidentally, I always recommend pencils rather than pens for Geocaching as they write vertically... handy when the only hard thing to lean on is a tree or a wall

 

The photo doesn't have to be posted on the cache page....once or twice I've found containers that were stuck shut, or for some other reason I couldn't sign the log. I'll usually take a pic with my phone or my Oregon 550 and claim the find, stating in my online log that I have pics for confirmation if the CO wants proof. None have ever been deleted or questioned.

 

By the way, Fisher Space Pens write upside down

 

I've used the photo method too, especially in the winter when caches are frozen in. Personally, as a CO I'd much rather someone took a photo then attempt to smash through the ice to get at the container and logbook. I once smashed through the ice of our own cache hide and shattered the lock n lock lid. Also, as a CO I would not delete found logs (unless it's a known bot - and hopefully the GC managers would do the honors). It's not worth the angst. If it has no affect on how I and others who find our caches play the game then...whatever.

Edited August 3, 2012 by L0ne R

[Langy]

As someone already mentioned, if you are just logging caches you really don't find (as to why the log is not signed) then you are only cheating yourself. Who cares what someone else has for a number of finds.

 

I've had a couple of instances where I was unable to sign the log as below.

 

• Log was actually missing. I was on a route walk setup by a single cacher so if they had any concerns then they could see the other caches I had already found on the walk. Also someone else had posted the log was missing so I was backing them up.
• Totally soaked log where it was impossible to sign. Logged it on the site and also created a maintenance log to inform the CO.
• Finally just this weekend forgot to take a pen on a walk as I was trying to organise the family. Got to the cache and their pen did not work. I took photo's of the cache and fortunately my son put in some crayons in the cache so I used one of those.
• Also been to some caches where the log was almost beyond full but mamanged to squeeze a small entry on the paper. Comments from cachers way before me had posted a full log. So some of this shoudl also come down to the CO.

I myself may check a log that I replaced (this is if I ever set my own cache) if it is in good condition.

 

Langy

 

 

[team tisri]

Every cacher should have their own pen/pencil. I don't think the CO should provide. Handy if you do. I see a few new guys who always seem to forget the pen. It sets alarm bells ringing.

In my opinion, a cache without an ink log is not valid. I would e mail finder and give him a week, then delete. Less for someone experienced.

 

If the cacher can prove they found your cache (including opening it for puzzle caches, and retrieving it for caches up trees etc) then I think insisting that no mark on the sheet equals no find is a bit pedantic. If someone claims a find but can't back it up with anything then whether you delete or not is up to you.

 

I've been out caching with a pencil that broke part way through the day, I've lost my pencil part way around a circuit, I've found logs too wet to mark and containers rusted so badly they won't open. When that kind of thing happens I just do the best I can.

 

The only thing I wouldn't attempt to claim if I hadn't marked the log is the FTF, on the basis I could prove I was there but couldn't prove I was the first to find it.

[+Teuchters]

As someone already mentioned, if you are just logging caches you really don't find (as to why the log is not signed) then you are only cheating yourself. Who cares what someone else has for a number of finds.

 

I've had a couple of instances where I was unable to sign the log as below.

 

Log was actually missing. (Snip)

 

Langy

 

Three times I have been to my nearest unfound cache - 40 miles away by road - each time it has been missing and subsequently replaced by the CO. On the last occasion, being somewhat fed up with it being missing yet again, I posted a found log. And had it promptly deleted even after I said politely, once again, that it was missing!

 

Next time, I'll just say I found it without informing the CO that it's gone again......

Edited August 7, 2012 by Teuchters

[+dartymoor]

I claimed three geocaches on Sunday without signing the log. Doing a woodland series near Exeter in torrential rain, after about 1.5 hours of it I had no dry bits about my body despite full, good waterproofs (including my underpants!) with which to dry my hands, and with micros and nanos involved, and having made the previous one a little damp by opening it, there was no way to sign them without soaking them. I decided to just take pictures of the caches unopened.

 

I'd like to think that was common sense. Not heard from the CO but they've not deleted the logs so I'm hoping they agree.

 

(And on getting back to my car after two hours of heavy rain and not having seen anyone in all that time, I stripped down to my shreddies behind the car and towelled myself off for a change of clothes, only to have half a dozen joggers appear out of nowhere at exactly the wrong moment... )

Edited August 8, 2012 by dartymoor

[+Pharisee]

(And on getting back to my car after two hours of heavy rain and not having seen anyone in all that time, I stripped down to my shreddies behind the car and towelled myself off for a change of clothes, only to have half a dozen joggers appear out of nowhere at exactly the wrong moment... )

 

I know exactly where you're coming from.... My log for "Folded (Bute)"

[+ivanidea]

But if you don't open the cache, how do you know if it isn't a red herring, with the actual cache nearby?

 

There is one cache which I thought was easy to find, only to discover on opening the box to find it was just a dummy cache, with instructions to keep on looking for the real one!

[team tisri]

But if you don't open the cache, how do you know if it isn't a red herring, with the actual cache nearby?

 

There is one cache which I thought was easy to find, only to discover on opening the box to find it was just a dummy cache, with instructions to keep on looking for the real one!

 

I guess the CO makes that judgment call based on the photo. From what I gather some people sign the piece of paper that says "this is the decoy, keep looking" and claim the find anyway.

[+Bean & Sprout]

Is it so wrong for a cacher to expect the cache placer to have had the common sense and decency to leave a pen/cil in the cache along with the log book so people can sign the book? Has this tradition gone away? I know that nano's will probably not have a writing implement available, but I remember wittling a pencil down to the size that would fit in a breath strip container that I placed several years ago.

 

If anyone deleted my log when I'd forgotten a pen (I use muddy thumb prints from time to time) I'd be pretty pee'd off, especially if they'd not been bothered to provide a pen in the first place either.

 

Same here. I sharpen the pencil then use an exacto blade or a hacksaw to cut it down to size. You can easily get a cut down pencil into a film or pill pot.

But it's becoming rare to see pencils in any cache anymore.

 

I've put cut down pencils in all my 35mm cache containers and even one in a tube container only to find the pencil has been removed/taken when I've gone back to check the cache or perform maintenance. I can only assume the cachers concerned collect pencil stubs, or had forgotten their pen(cil) so took mine for the next cache... Wouldn't mind if they left a penny or two in return or mentioned that they had taken it!

[Sparticus]

Not been on the forums for a while. I have two rare virtual caches which were put out many many years ago. One of the stipulations I put on is for the finder to email me answers from the cache site. This is part of the enjoyment of the cache. I'm sorry to say that I am a bit precious about these caches and some cachers try to guess, and it's obvious they weren't there. If they don't email me the answers, I email them, and if no correct answers, I will delete the log. I have only had to do this twice in the 8 years they have been out.