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Seek but don't hide


alien55
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It seems that there's more than a few geocachers out there who have racked up many, many finds but not placed a single hide. I'm interested to hear what others think about this. My feeling is that geocaching should be done in the spirit of give and take, although I understand that for one reason or another it might be difficult for some cachers to place hides.

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It seems that there's more than a few geocachers out there who have racked up many, many finds but not placed a single hide. I'm interested to hear what others think about this. My feeling is that geocaching should be done in the spirit of give and take, although I understand that for one reason or another it might be difficult for some cachers to place hides.

 

I say, quality over quantity. If someone knows they don't have the time or money to invest in cache ownership they are better off limiting themselves to finding caches. COs appreciate their visits and finders contribute to the game as much as owners. Ideally, people who are ready to make the long term commitment and invest something in the game (quality container, scout out a good location, watch their email for problems, learn about the GC site and how to use it, quickly fix problems) should be planting caches.

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There are a lot of ways to give back to this little activity of ours. Placing caches is only one of them.

 

You can:

  • Hold/Plan Events
  • Organize local groups
  • Work with Land Managers for Geocaching friendly rules
  • Trade up or Trade Even
  • Leave nice Swag
  • Write nice long unique logs at each cache
  • help repair/maintain caches
  • Help folks out in the forums
  • Teach new cachers the ropes
  • etc....

Edited by StarBrand
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If my two caches vanish I won't be hiding anymore. I really don't have time to maintain a bunch of caches and find it irresponsible to hide caches if I can't care for them. Also, I only like hiding caches in places I like to go. I won't hide one just for the sake of hiding them in some random spot.

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the best thing about this game is that you play the parts you want to.

 

like others have said, nothing wrong with only doing the part you enjoy and i too, wouldnt want someone making a cache that doesnt want to. that leads to bad/not kept up with caches.

Edited by ArcadiaExeter
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Giving back simply by hiding a cache, is not necessarily a good thing.

 

I really enjoy a good melody, but I can't hold one, myself. You REALLY would not want to hear what I would (could) give back.

 

Not all folks are capable of hiding caches. Now that sounds rather arrogant, it wasn't meant to be, but it's true. It's just that some do not wish to hide caches -- and that's fine. If they don't want to, they shouldn't.

 

Enough it seems here in the forums complain about "nowhere to hide one", or seem to have trouble interpreting some guidelines, only to run afoul of a reviewer and come here to complain about that!

Many feel there are too many guidelines or "hoops" to jump through to hide caches. They simply would rather find than to go through the hassle of hiding. Can't say I blame them either. To each their own.

 

No, hiding is not for everyone.

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I don't want to see anybody placing hides that does not want to place hides. That would be a very bad idea.
+1

 

There are a lot of ways to give back to this little activity of ours.
+1

 

Hiding caches is not the only way to give back. And if someone cannot maintain caches, then NOT hiding caches is a better contribution to the community than hiding caches they cannot maintain.

Edited by niraD
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Some people are finders and some are hiders.

 

I have a friend who geocached for a brief period. He couldn't find his a** with both hands when looking for caches but he placed some very tricky-to-find caches. His cache hides would have been almost impossible to find if not for the fact that his coordinates were EXACT every time. He had the most consistently super-accurate coordinates I've ever seen.

 

There are so many geocachers out there. I'm personally glad that many of them don't hide caches. Some folks hide a crazy amount of caches. I know of one who is fairly local who has 1,338 hides. Amazingly, he doesn't place crappy caches and he maintains all of his hides. Another cacher has more than 250 hides but many of them are placed "just because I can put a cache here" and they are rarely maintained. It all depends on the particular cache owner.

 

I have placed 30 caches of varying quality. I placed a few that were, of themselves, pretty lame but they served a purpose as stages of a puzzle. The final has been stolen for the second time and I archived it. I will probably archive 4 of the 5 steps leading to the final as they aren't really "stand-alone" quality.

 

Too many people place poorly thought out caches just because they can. I love it when I find a well thought out and innovative hide - especially one that takes me to a great spot.

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We have a few local cachers that feel that they have to pay a "tax" for finding caches. They have worked out personal goals/percentages saying that they have to hide so many per so many found. What we end up with is caches in places that can't support them that are placed for no other reason than that they meet the proximity guidelines, low quality caches that are not maintained and caches in areas that the hider has no plans to ever return to. When the caches go missing they wait out several DNFs hoping that someone else will replace the caches for them and if it doesn't happen, or a reviewer gets involved through a NA log, they simply archive them. If someone does replace the cache for them, NM attributes are not cleared.

 

It's really a bad idea to think that all cache finders must hide caches to pay back the community. If they are capable and want to, great. Placing any kind of stigma on them for not doing so would be wrong.

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It seems that there's more than a few geocachers out there who have racked up many, many finds but not placed a single hide. I'm interested to hear what others think about this. My feeling is that geocaching should be done in the spirit of give and take, although I understand that for one reason or another it might be difficult for some cachers to place hides.

 

In addition to all the comments above, some people use separate accounts for hiding and finding. So don't assume that they have no hides just because their "finding" account shows no hides.

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Like other things in life, hiding a Geocache is a commitment for the life of the cache. Hide all the caches you want, but don't hide so many that you can't take care of them. Otherwise, the rest of us have to pick up the slack and support your caches. Younger cachers sometimes complain that older cachers aren't hiding any more caches. Well, we have mature caches, and aren't looking to take on any more. Peoria Bill :lol:

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I definitely agree that if you're not up for maintaining your cache's quality that you should just stick to seeking. It's a bummer to get to a broken cache that's moldy and bogged down with water.

 

From a new geocacher's perspective, I think it might be intimidating to hide a cache for the first time. I understand why there is a review process of course, but actually getting your first cache published seems like an ordeal. It just seems easier to not place any caches than deal with all of the potential problems.

 

I'd love to hide a TB Hotel cache nearby so that I can check it frequently, but at least in my experience it's been very hard to find a location. I live in a very built up suburban area where I can't find anywhere meaningful to place a cache. I'd rather place one quality cache with a sturdy container (and a backup at home in case it's stolen) than to just plop a cache down in some bushes. Between finding a "good" location and getting permission from the land owners, it's a lot of work. Perhaps people who have high numbers would rather keep things low key and just cache totally for pure hobby.

 

I think it may be like any hobby where once you take the commitment to the next level, it can become more of a chore than a joy. For example, going from renting an RV to owning one; taking horseback riding lessons to owning a horse; having a time share versus buying the property. You sort of lose the sense that you can just walk away at anytime. Once you place that first cache, you have people relying on you for maintenance and for a fun experience.

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It is interesting to me to see that so many support "leeches" in the geocaching community, and even give them a laughable excuse that they will hide bad and/or poorly maintained caches. If you are capable of finding them, then you are capable of hiding and maintaining them. I agree that there are other ways to contribute, but I seriously doubt very many non hiders are actively participating in those.

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It is interesting to me to see that so many support "leeches" in the geocaching community, and even give them a laughable excuse that they will hide bad and/or poorly maintained caches.
If someone has no intrinsic desire to own/maintain a cache, and hides a cache only due to pressure to "give back to the community" or to "stop being a leech" or whatever, then do you really expect them to hide a quality, well-maintained cache?

 

If you are capable of finding them, then you are capable of hiding and maintaining them.
Nonsense. An obvious counterexample is someone who travels a lot, who can find caches during their travels, but who is not in one place enough to maintain a cache. Remember, "Geocaches are placed for the long term."
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It is interesting to me to see that so many support "leeches" in the geocaching community, and even give them a laughable excuse that they will hide bad and/or poorly maintained caches.
If someone has no intrinsic desire to own/maintain a cache, and hides a cache only due to pressure to "give back to the community" or to "stop being a leech" or whatever, then do you really expect them to hide a quality, well-maintained cache?

 

If you are capable of finding them, then you are capable of hiding and maintaining them.
Nonsense. An obvious counterexample is someone who travels a lot, who can find caches during their travels, but who is not in one place enough to maintain a cache. Remember, "Geocaches are placed for the long term."

 

There is not a good excuse for them not to be capable of quality, well-maintained cache. Will everyone? probably not, but that is because they are taking and not giving back, leech-like. As for the counterexample, here and on many topics in these forums, I'm not concerned with the tiny percentage of people someone can come up with for an excuse. I'm talking about the vast majority.

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Why the big hang up over quality, well maintained caches? The reality is that most caches are pretty ordinary and have damp logs. Without the park n grabs stuck under lampost skirts or the ammo cans hidden under geopiles that can be seen from 25 yards we'd be struggling to have a regular hobby. Sure, it's great to find a unique hide in a wonderful location, but these are the exception rather than the norm. There's plenty of room on this planet for caches of all types, surely, and you can take them or leave them.

Edited by alien55
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There are a lot of ways to give back to this little activity of ours. Placing caches is only one of them.

 

You can:

  • Hold/Plan Events
  • Organize local groups
  • Work with Land Managers for Geocaching friendly rules
  • Trade up or Trade Even
  • Leave nice Swag
  • Write nice long unique logs at each cache
  • help repair/maintain caches
  • Help folks out in the forums
  • Teach new cachers the ropes
  • etc....

 

Somehow, I doubt that people who hide cachesbelow the par, for the sake of hiding caches for numbers would be intrested in any of these...

 

I don't want to see anybody placing hides that does not want to place hides. That would be a very bad idea.

+1

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There are a lot of ways to give back to this little activity of ours. Placing caches is only one of them.

 

You can:

  • Hold/Plan Events
  • Organize local groups
  • Work with Land Managers for Geocaching friendly rules
  • Trade up or Trade Even
  • Leave nice Swag
  • Write nice long unique logs at each cache
  • help repair/maintain caches
  • Help folks out in the forums
  • Teach new cachers the ropes
  • etc....

 

Thank you! I have no hides - first, because I don't think I'm creative enough (we have many AMAZING CO's in this area and I'd hate to disappoint) but secondly (and more importantly) I'm down to one income and can't afford a good gps. My cords are typically 15-30 ft off. Can you imagine me hiding a cache?

 

I drive people to events. I normally leave nicer swag and rarely take. I ALWAYS take time on my logs and many of my photos have been used by local groups in their presentations to open caching in their area. I carry a repair toolbox in my trunk to make sure the cache is in great shape for the next person. I've been posting in the forum. I've introduced new cachers to the sport. I've attended several CITO events. I always bring a size able dish to pass. I bring door prizes for events.

 

Thank you.

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Why the big hang up over quality, well maintained caches? The reality is that most caches are pretty ordinary and have damp logs.
Then it sounds like we already have plenty of ordinary caches with damp logs. Maybe we need more extraordinary caches with dry logs.
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Why the big hang up over quality, well maintained caches? The reality is that most caches are pretty ordinary and have damp logs.
Then it sounds like we already have plenty of ordinary caches with damp logs. Maybe we need more extraordinary caches with dry logs.

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What about the travelers. The truckers, or the retired people? What I mean is that there are people who travel a LOT. And since they do, there is the opportunity to find more caches, but at the same time it makes maintaining caches harder. Back 4 or 5 years ago, I've been told that since there where not many cacher, one could place a cache 200 miles away, and if something went wrong one of the locals would fix it. That just won't work today with 100 or mare times the caches. And don't we always complain when someone places a cache and forgets about it?

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It seems that there's more than a few geocachers out there who have racked up many, many finds but not placed a single hide. I'm interested to hear what others think about this. My feeling is that geocaching should be done in the spirit of give and take, although I understand that for one reason or another it might be difficult for some cachers to place hides.

 

Yep I'm not breaking any records with my amount of hides I have about 70 and over 18,000 finds but I know of a couple one with 16,000 finds and not 1 hide and many others with over 10,000 finds and no hides. Throw us a bone will ya.

 

SS

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What about the travelers. The truckers, or the retired people? What I mean is that there are people who travel a LOT. And since they do, there is the opportunity to find more caches, but at the same time it makes maintaining caches harder. Back 4 or 5 years ago, I've been told that since there where not many cacher, one could place a cache 200 miles away, and if something went wrong one of the locals would fix it. That just won't work today with 100 or mare times the caches. And don't we always complain when someone places a cache and forgets about it?

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Surely, retired people are in the best position to maintain caches. Most of us have demands on our time regardless of whether we're travelling or trucking. Like everything else in life, it comes down to how you want to allocate your time.

Edited by alien55
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I don't care how many finds a person has. If they are placing a cache only because others insist that they "throw us a bone" or "stop being a leech" or "give back to the community", then I'd rather they give to the community in some other way. For example, by NOT placing a cache that they don't really want to own and maintain for the long term. Or in any of the ways described in StarBrand's first reply to this thread.

 

One of the things I appreciate about Groundspeak (in contrast to Garmin's opencaching.COM, for example) is that they don't pressure people to hide caches that they aren't ready to own and maintain. There are no prizes for listing a cache here, there are no challenge caches that require cache ownership here, and so on. People should hide caches because they want to hide caches, not because they want something else that requires them to hide a cache first.

 

Even if that "something else" is silencing the accusations of those who think every geocacher should hide caches.

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There are a lot of ways to give back to this little activity of ours. Placing caches is only one of them.

 

You can:

  • Hold/Plan Events
  • Organize local groups
  • Work with Land Managers for Geocaching friendly rules
  • Trade up or Trade Even
  • Leave nice Swag
  • Write nice long unique logs at each cache
  • help repair/maintain caches
  • Help folks out in the forums
  • Teach new cachers the ropes
  • etc....

 

Thank you! I have no hides - first, because I don't think I'm creative enough (we have many AMAZING CO's in this area and I'd hate to disappoint) but secondly (and more importantly) I'm down to one income and can't afford a good gps. My cords are typically 15-30 ft off. Can you imagine me hiding a cache?

 

I drive people to events. I normally leave nicer swag and rarely take. I ALWAYS take time on my logs and many of my photos have been used by local groups in their presentations to open caching in their area. I carry a repair toolbox in my trunk to make sure the cache is in great shape for the next person. I've been posting in the forum. I've introduced new cachers to the sport. I've attended several CITO events. I always bring a size able dish to pass. I bring door prizes for events.

 

Thank you.

 

KUDOS to you my friend. : )

 

everyone contributes in their own way, and you're contributing very nicely.

 

THANK YOU

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It is interesting to me to see that so many support "leeches" in the geocaching community, and even give them a laughable excuse that they will hide bad and/or poorly maintained caches. If you are capable of finding them, then you are capable of hiding and maintaining them. I agree that there are other ways to contribute, but I seriously doubt very many non hiders are actively participating in those.

It's a good idea that nobody is forced to hide a cache. While it might be true that a majority of people can toss out a film can or GladWare container with a log, it's not clear how many people will maintain them.

 

Cache ownership is a long term commitment. It involves selecting a place to hide a cache, getting permission if necessary, getting good coordinates, writing up a web page, monitoring logs, maintaining the cache, archiving and removing the cache when it is no longer viable.

 

Lets examine each of these and decide if the people who don't hid are the real leaches.

 

1. Selecting a place: aside from the many complaints already in the forums because someone hides a cache in a location someone else doesn't approve of, we also no that sometimes just find a location that isn't in violation of some guideline is difficult. Many people give up when they try to hide caches and they get rejected because they are too close to some unknown cache or stage of a multi.

 

2. Getting permission: Base on some of the horror stories I read here, this is hard enough for people who are placing caches now. I suspect a substantial numbers of people who haven't hidden caches either have given up trying to get permission to place their hide, or who find asking permission too difficult an obstacle to over come. In either case, compare these "leaches" to the many hides who simply decide that their cache doesn't need permission.

 

3. Getting good coordinates: Finding caches is pretty easy, download the coordinates to your GPS and go. I suspect there are a few geocachers who have no idea how to mark coordinates with their GPS or why it's a good idea to average. My guess is for smartphone users, the percent that know how to get good coordinates is even lower.

 

4. Writing up a cache page. Some people are just not writers. Sure you don't have to say much on the cache page, but you still need to put something. You have to figure out more of the guideline well, in order to know what you can or can't say. While someone who has found a lot of cache should have some idea what the difficult and terrain ratings are, people often have trouble with their own caches (since they know where they hid them).

 

5. Monitoring logs. You don't have delete logs just because some said they didn't sign the log, but you should be monitoring the logs to see if there is a problem with the cache. You are also responsible to delete logs that are not family friendly or otherwise violate the TOUs for the website. Every so often there is a cache owner who ask how to stop the email notification they get when their cache is logged. Surprisingly a lot of cache owners think you should hide a cache an forget it.

 

6. Maintaining the physical cache. A lot of cache owners seem to have no intention of maintaining their caches. They expect others to replace logs and missing containers for them. Again, I suspect that a substantial number of those that don't hide know that they aren't going to maintain their hides. Some may in fact travel, move around due to their job, or have seasonal residences. Others may simply have too busy a lifestyle. While they can hunt caches when they have free time, having to deal with maintenance issues in a reasonabe time frame be out of the questiong. Or they may simply want to use that time to fimd other caches.

 

7. Archiving and removing the cache when it is no longer viable. I find it amusing that two of the most popular complaints are 1) people who have many finds but no hides and 2) people who have only a few finds but many hides. Often when people complain about caches that have been abandoned and are missing with no owners to take care of them they blame on the people who start hiding caches before they have found enough to show commitment to the game. But I have found that abandoned caches are just as often left by people with high find counts. Even long time geocachers leave the game for one reason or another - health, family crisis, or just moving to a new town - leaving many caches that aren't always adopted out. I often see caches left unmaintained even by active high numbers cachers that end up being archived by a reviewer. A high numbers cacher who admits they don't want to spend time doing maintenance is not contributing to the problem of abandoned caches. (And while there may be some disagreement about it, these cachers are often the ones helping others by doing maintenance for them).

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And most of you know how I feel. I still feel newbies should have experience. We just had one here. A cacher from SoCal came up to visit a friend and took them out caching. The friend signed up after finding 3 caches. Well I don't know if the SoCal cacher taught them anything or just suggested a spot or the newbie did it totally on their own. But come on the new forms suggest to read the guidelines. The newbie placed a regular sized container under a US Postal Mailbox. Someone reported it NA. It wasn't archived it was retracted! What I also don't understand is why the 3 cachers who found it didn't say anything. If I'm right they lose their finds on that cache too. That would have, if spotted by a muggle, be a total bomb scare.

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We love hiding. 128 caches here. No archives either. We maintain everything as soon as a issue appears. But we truly are for the quality rather than the quantity, honest. No stupid micro caches in awful spots - every time we place a cache we ask ourselves: "Would we enjoy finding a cache here?" if it's a scenic spot, or "Would we enjoy finding this cache?" If it's a puzzle.

 

People we do what they enjoy most. We enjoy finding also, but hiding is our forte... :)

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If everyone wanted to hide, a war would break out over turf. I do not think everyone should hide for a lot of reasons. Think about it. It would be bad for the game.

 

I agree.

 

Firstly I agree there should be no pressure or stigma put on someone who doesn't want to hide. But on top of that, I see no need to do this.

 

Imagine a game where there were many people wanting to find but very few caches or people willing to hide them. Very quickly finders would find all caches within 50 miles of them, and new caches come along very infrequently. Maybe then there would be a case to encourage more hiders.

 

But in my area at least, there are lots of caches. New cachers tend to want to hide, and often struggle to find a spot to hide. There is simply no need to push people who don't want to hide caches to hide them.

Edited by redsox_mark
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It is interesting to me to see that so many support "leeches" in the geocaching community, and even give them a laughable excuse that they will hide bad and/or poorly maintained caches. If you are capable of finding them, then you are capable of hiding and maintaining them. I agree that there are other ways to contribute, but I seriously doubt very many non hiders are actively participating in those.

It's a good idea that nobody is forced to hide a cache. While it might be true that a majority of people can toss out a film can or GladWare container with a log, it's not clear how many people will maintain them.

 

Cache ownership is a long term commitment. It involves selecting a place to hide a cache, getting permission if necessary, getting good coordinates, writing up a web page, monitoring logs, maintaining the cache, archiving and removing the cache when it is no longer viable.

 

Lets examine each of these and decide if the people who don't hid are the real leaches.

 

1. Selecting a place: aside from the many complaints already in the forums because someone hides a cache in a location someone else doesn't approve of, we also no that sometimes just find a location that isn't in violation of some guideline is difficult. Many people give up when they try to hide caches and they get rejected because they are too close to some unknown cache or stage of a multi.

 

2. Getting permission: Base on some of the horror stories I read here, this is hard enough for people who are placing caches now. I suspect a substantial numbers of people who haven't hidden caches either have given up trying to get permission to place their hide, or who find asking permission too difficult an obstacle to over come. In either case, compare these "leaches" to the many hides who simply decide that their cache doesn't need permission.

 

3. Getting good coordinates: Finding caches is pretty easy, download the coordinates to your GPS and go. I suspect there are a few geocachers who have no idea how to mark coordinates with their GPS or why it's a good idea to average. My guess is for smartphone users, the percent that know how to get good coordinates is even lower.

 

4. Writing up a cache page. Some people are just not writers. Sure you don't have to say much on the cache page, but you still need to put something. You have to figure out more of the guideline well, in order to know what you can or can't say. While someone who has found a lot of cache should have some idea what the difficult and terrain ratings are, people often have trouble with their own caches (since they know where they hid them).

 

5. Monitoring logs. You don't have delete logs just because some said they didn't sign the log, but you should be monitoring the logs to see if there is a problem with the cache. You are also responsible to delete logs that are not family friendly or otherwise violate the TOUs for the website. Every so often there is a cache owner who ask how to stop the email notification they get when their cache is logged. Surprisingly a lot of cache owners think you should hide a cache an forget it.

 

6. Maintaining the physical cache. A lot of cache owners seem to have no intention of maintaining their caches. They expect others to replace logs and missing containers for them. Again, I suspect that a substantial number of those that don't hide know that they aren't going to maintain their hides. Some may in fact travel, move around due to their job, or have seasonal residences. Others may simply have too busy a lifestyle. While they can hunt caches when they have free time, having to deal with maintenance issues in a reasonabe time frame be out of the questiong. Or they may simply want to use that time to fimd other caches.

 

7. Archiving and removing the cache when it is no longer viable. I find it amusing that two of the most popular complaints are 1) people who have many finds but no hides and 2) people who have only a few finds but many hides. Often when people complain about caches that have been abandoned and are missing with no owners to take care of them they blame on the people who start hiding caches before they have found enough to show commitment to the game. But I have found that abandoned caches are just as often left by people with high find counts. Even long time geocachers leave the game for one reason or another - health, family crisis, or just moving to a new town - leaving many caches that aren't always adopted out. I often see caches left unmaintained even by active high numbers cachers that end up being archived by a reviewer. A high numbers cacher who admits they don't want to spend time doing maintenance is not contributing to the problem of abandoned caches. (And while there may be some disagreement about it, these cachers are often the ones helping others by doing maintenance for them).

 

All really good excuses for being lazy and not contributing to the community. Bravo!!!

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I don't care how many finds a person has. If they are placing a cache only because others insist that they "throw us a bone" or "stop being a leech" or "give back to the community", then I'd rather they give to the community in some other way. For example, by NOT placing a cache that they don't really want to own and maintain for the long term. Or in any of the ways described in StarBrand's first reply to this thread.

 

One of the things I appreciate about Groundspeak (in contrast to Garmin's opencaching.COM, for example) is that they don't pressure people to hide caches that they aren't ready to own and maintain. There are no prizes for listing a cache here, there are no challenge caches that require cache ownership here, and so on. People should hide caches because they want to hide caches, not because they want something else that requires them to hide a cache first.

 

Even if that "something else" is silencing the accusations of those who think every geocacher should hide caches.

 

Eh, there are many people who would like to see prolific finders "throw us a bone" and not be "leeshes", that is for sure. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a thread, and it's not the first one. For example, I do remember a then newbie burst on the scene in my area around 2005, a became an instant FTF hound, and found maybe 500 caches in just a few months (quite a feat in 2005, by the way). They defintely heard "take and not give" type comments, espicially being a high profile FTF fanatic. They did go on to hide about 20 excellent caches, but have pretty much left the game.

 

I am not personally aware of anyone within 100 miles of my home coords with over 1,000 finds and no hides. However, I am aware of several with only one or two hides. I often cache with a person with over 6,000 finds and only two hides, and one of them is a Coffee Shop LPC!! I do think such people do feel pressure from the community, whether real or perceived.

 

I will throw the anti-leech people a bone though. Someone with a few thousand finds probably isn't going to throw out an unlabled Gladware container with no stash note or logbook baggie for their first hide. :)

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It is interesting to me to see that so many support "leeches" in the geocaching community, and even give them a laughable excuse that they will hide bad and/or poorly maintained caches. If you are capable of finding them, then you are capable of hiding and maintaining them. I agree that there are other ways to contribute, but I seriously doubt very many non hiders are actively participating in those.

That is the most ridiculous dogma I've heard in a long time. That like saying "if you can read a book, you are capable of writing and publishing them." It is a poorly thought out position, and if the only way to promote it is to call people names it won't get much support.

Edited by The Jester
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