Religion and caching?

[+The A-Team]

None of the two questions transports along an agenda.

Agreed, and that's what all the posters in this thread seem to understand (wow, that doesn't happen very often! ). Any of these topics can be used, including religion and politics, as long as there isn't an agenda.

[+Chief301]

I don't think a cache with religious references is necessarily promoting an agenda. Not to sound like some kind of ultra-conservative, but somewhere along the way our politically correct society decided that freedom OF religion really means freedom FROM religion. .

[+bflentje]

If there's a logbook in there for me to sign I don't care what's on the listing or inside the container.

 

+100

 

Having an anti-agenda agenda takes too much time away from more important things in life.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I think religion and politics should both be kept as far away from Geocaching as possible, but I'm not going on a crusade about it, either.

 

But tell me why a cache series of say 100 puzzle caches each of which requires answering questions with a biblical background is any worse than a series

of 100 puzzle caches asking questions about formula 1 car racing. I am bored to death by the latter (which really exists and comprises more than 100 caches).

 

I agree that religious and political agendas should be kept out of geocaching as far as possible (even that is not always possible), but why deal with religion and politics as a generic topic any differently than with topics like car racing, comics, TV soaps, medieval history etc?

 

Cezanne

 

As far as the review process goes, here is the relevant guideline:

 

"Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Cache listings perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted."

 

The key phrase, to me, is "perceived to be posted for".

 

A puzzle (or any type of ) cache that has a religion, politics, car racing, comics, TV show, etc. theme doesn't violate the guidelines *unless* there is a perception that the cache has been created to solicit interest on that topic. The difference is in how the cache listing is perceived. It's quite possible to hide a cache on church property without a religious solicitation.

 

The guideline also contains the phrase "for any purpose". It does not single out religious or political agendas. At least according to the guidelines, *any* form of solicitation is not allowed.

[+Vater_Araignee]

I don't think a cache with religious references is necessarily promoting an agenda. Not to sound like some kind of ultra-conservative, but somewhere along the way our politically correct society decided that freedom OF religion really means freedom FROM religion. .

Like the horrid interpretation of the first. It means government cant play favorites with a religion, not a religions cant get involved with government.

 

My only agenda in this post was to point out a political agenda not to promote religious one.

[cezanne]

As far as the review process goes, here is the relevant guideline:

 

"Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Cache listings perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted."

 

The key phrase, to me, is "perceived to be posted for".

 

I'm aware of that guideline. I still feel that briansnat's reply was too general as no cache listing was presented here so it cannot be judged whether or not what you refer to as key phrase above applies or not.

 

In any case, I made the experience that many cachers tend to complain quickly if there exists any link at all to religion (like for example, some questions based on the bible) while they do not complain about caches where it clearly becomes evident that someone is a great fan of soccer club X or soap Y. This might be connected to what someone observed above namely that for many freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

 

 

Cezanne

[+sshipway]

This is one of my caches: http://coord.info/GC31398

 

This is a Buddhism-themed cache, based on Wu Cheng-en's story of Monkey, which is itself based on a true story. I've had no problems with anyone over this (other than the local Buddhist temple not wanting the cache hidden on their property!). In the Wherigo part, you need to answer various (easy) questions on Buddhism to progress.

 

I have no problems with any religious-themed caches, as long as they are not blatantly pushing an agenda (in which case I'd ignore them and move on - life is too short to fuss over that sort of thing).

[+redsox_mark]

As far as the review process goes, here is the relevant guideline:

 

"Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Cache listings perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted."

 

The key phrase, to me, is "perceived to be posted for".

 

I'm aware of that guideline. I still feel that briansnat's reply was too general as no cache listing was presented here so it cannot be judged whether or not what you refer to as key phrase above applies or not.

 

In any case, I made the experience that many cachers tend to complain quickly if there exists any link at all to religion (like for example, some questions based on the bible) while they do not complain about caches where it clearly becomes evident that someone is a great fan of soccer club X or soap Y. This might be connected to what someone observed above namely that for many freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

 

 

Cezanne

 

This aligns with what I was trying to say.

 

There is a difference between an off-limits topic and an agenda. I don’t see anything in the guidelines which state religion is an off-limits topic.

 

Religion (and politics) are listed as specific examples which could include an agenda. And for that reason I believe such a cache will be checked more carefully for an agenda than a cache about sport, TV, etc. I’m not saying if that is right or wrong – that is just the way it is. I have a friend who has a cache based on his favourite singer – and the description says that – that this singer is his favourite. That is an opinion; but I think few would call it an agenda. But a cache saying that the owners chosen (“favourite”) religion is X would likely be seen as an agenda.

 

I have a puzzle cache themed on baseball. You need to know (or learn) some basic information about baseball to solve it. I’m no different than many cache owners – I’ve built a cache around a topic I’m interested in. In a way I have an agenda to share that interest with others. It should be possible to do the same based on Christianity or Buddhism etc. But you would need to be careful.

[+briansnat]

It's a moot point however because such a cache is unlikely to make it through the review process as caches are not allowed to promote an agenda.

 

I do not think that such a cache necessarily promotes an agenda. I could well imagine dedicating a puzzle cache to Hinduism even though I'm not a Hindu and certainly

do not want to convince anyone to become a Hindu.

 

It cannot be excepted that it is viewed as perfectly ok to develop a cache around a football star, a famous actor, a TV soap, a comic series etc and it is not allowed to deal

with religious topics. Personally, I find it much more interesting to learn more about a religion not well known to me than to learn about soaps that I would not even watch if I got payed for it.

 

What's the essential generic difference between e.g. using the Bible for a cache and using some novel of say Paul Auster? Actually, I believe there is none which is generic in nature. Of course the Bible might be better suited to push forward an agenda than an arbitrary novel authored by Auster, but this does not imply that a cache based on the Bible necessarily comes along with an agenda.

 

Cezanne

 

You are correct, the mere mention of religion or quoting from religious texts isn't necessarily an agenda. It's all a matter of how its done. For example you can base a puzzle on Biblical passages and I think that could be fine. It can however cross a line and become an agenda. Say the cache was in the parking lot of a Christian church and they obviously selected verses for the puzzle meant to promote Christianity such as John 14:6, John 3:16, Romans 10:9, John 3:36, Acts 4:12, Romans 6:23 and similar passages. That might set of my agenda meter.

Edited July 4, 2012 by briansnat

[+Landy49]

And as someone else stated, we have become so politically correct that any reference to religion backs everyone up and go, "oh no he didn.t."

 

So is it the cache listing or the little bobble left in the cache that is a problem? Someone referenced that it can't market anything, yet a few years ago Jeep did a major advertising campaign through the use of travel bugs. They had created and distributed, through caches all-over, about 1,000 toy jeeps with dog tags and they said Jeep. So it was evident marketing, but through the use of the travel-bug versus a situated cache.

 

Obviously most people feel you will have more notice of your marketing or agenda through the item being passed around, rather then the one location cache.

[cezanne]

You are correct, the mere mention of religion or quoting from religious texts isn't necessarily an agenda. It's all a matter of how its done. For example you can base a puzzle on Biblical passages and I think that could be fine. It can however cross a line and become an agenda. Say the cache was in the parking lot of a Christian church and they obviously selected verses for the puzzle meant to promote Christianity such as John 14:6, John 3:16, Romans 10:9, John 3:36, Acts 4:12, Romans 6:23 and similar passages. That might set of my agenda meter.

 

Thanks for your clarification. I agree with you with respect to your example. Religion of course is a topic that easily can be combined with an agenda.

I felt uncomfortable with comments in this thread who regard religion as off-limit topic for geocaches per se and I apparently misunderstand your first comment.

 

 

Cezanne

[+Don_J]

As far as the review process goes, here is the relevant guideline:

 

"Geocaches do not solicit for any purpose. Cache listings perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted."

 

The key phrase, to me, is "perceived to be posted for".

 

I'm aware of that guideline. I still feel that briansnat's reply was too general as no cache listing was presented here so it cannot be judged whether or not what you refer to as key phrase above applies or not.

 

In any case, I made the experience that many cachers tend to complain quickly if there exists any link at all to religion (like for example, some questions based on the bible) while they do not complain about caches where it clearly becomes evident that someone is a great fan of soccer club X or soap Y. This might be connected to what someone observed above namely that for many freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

 

 

Cezanne

 

This aligns with what I was trying to say.

 

There is a difference between an off-limits topic and an agenda. I don’t see anything in the guidelines which state religion is an off-limits topic.

 

Religion (and politics) are listed as specific examples which could include an agenda. And for that reason I believe such a cache will be checked more carefully for an agenda than a cache about sport, TV, etc. I’m not saying if that is right or wrong – that is just the way it is. I have a friend who has a cache based on his favourite singer – and the description says that – that this singer is his favourite. That is an opinion; but I think few would call it an agenda. But a cache saying that the owners chosen (“favourite”) religion is X would likely be seen as an agenda.

 

I have a puzzle cache themed on baseball. You need to know (or learn) some basic information about baseball to solve it. I’m no different than many cache owners – I’ve built a cache around a topic I’m interested in. In a way I have an agenda to share that interest with others. It should be possible to do the same based on Christianity or Buddhism etc. But you would need to be careful.

 

I don't agree with this. Stating in a cache description that I am Christian and believe in Jesus is a statement of fact. While I can't envision that I would every want to put that in a description, the fact that I did so is not an agenda. AFAIAK, saying that my favorite religious icon is Jesus is the same as saying that my favorite musical band is Led Zeppelin.

 

BTW, I am Christian but I get just as infuriated as anyone else when I am standing on a street corner and people come up and try to "convert" me. That is an agenda. I would feel the same way if I saw it in a cache description. Well, maybe not infuriated, but I would certainly feel that it is inappropriate. A cache description that says "The cache is on church property at the edge of the lovely rose garden" is rather benign. Change that to, "I'm Christian and placed a cache on church property at the edge of the lovely rose garden" just adds useless information. "I'm Christian and placed a cache on church property at the edge of the lovely rose garden, please join me for Mass on Sunday at 9AM. You will be consumed by the Fires of Hell if you don't", pushes in into agenda land.

[+tozainamboku]

Jesus Cache

OKAY: This cache is dedicated to the Lord Our God, maker of wine and bread, healer of the lame.

 

It had better not be an LPC, in that case!

Then how come church parking lots are the #2 most popular location for LPCs, just ahead of park and ride lots, but way behind big box retailers parking lots?

[+Chief301]

Jesus Cache

OKAY: This cache is dedicated to the Lord Our God, maker of wine and bread, healer of the lame.

 

It had better not be an LPC, in that case!

Then how come church parking lots are the #2 most popular location for LPCs, just ahead of park and ride lots, but way behind big box retailers parking lots?

 

Because church parking lots usually have much nicer landscaping and peaceful surroundings, and other than Sundays there's usually no muggles around. The church is usually more historically and architecturally interesting than a Wally World too.

[+redsox_mark]

I don't agree with this. Stating in a cache description that I am Christian and believe in Jesus is a statement of fact. While I can't envision that I would every want to put that in a description, the fact that I did so is not an agenda. AFAIAK, saying that my favorite religious icon is Jesus is the same as saying that my favorite musical band is Led Zeppelin.

 

I agree that it shouldn't make any difference. And maybe my example wasn't the greatest. My point is I believe - because reviewers will be looking more carefully at religious caches for an agenda - that there are things you can say to promote Led Zeppelin that you may get away with which you can't talking about religion.

[+RoadRoach58]

In fact I did hunt such a cache. It was outside a church and filled with pamphlets that supported a fundamentalist view of Christianity. The cache page supported that view. I'm n/ot sure if it was a particularly liberal reviewer who let it through or it was changed after the fact. After I found it, over the next few days I collected pamphlets related to Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, Judaism and even the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and returned to the cache to swap in some of my swag.

 

It's a moot point however because such a cache is unlikely to make it through the review process as caches are not allowed to promote an agenda.

 

Flying spaghetti monster? I nearly fell outta my chair when I read that, and knew exactly where you were going with the pamphlets too.

 

It's my choice to go hunt them, and while I may feel I have a right to/from religion, that isn't my cache. I went looking for it . I ran over my dogma with my karma a long time ago, and am very secure in my beliefs, so I can ignore all the stuff in there quite easily, but still get that ONE MORE smiley. I love cemetery hides, because I also dabble in genealogy, so get to see some really cool history out there, if not some fantastic marble work.

 

As for not getting past a reviewer, that may very well depend on location. If you're in the sunny south, aka the Bible Belt, well, Jesus saves. As long as there is no ALR that requires me to read any scripture or literature that goes against my beliefs, it will probably get published here. There are MANY bible thumper caches in this area. They all count ONE.

 

Funny part is, I don't do this for the numbers. I do this because I quit smoking and started getting FAT. It's a HOBBY, and that's the part that I have to keep in mind. If I start taking this so serious, it will get unfun quickly. I don't like unfun.

[+SKAMS]

Concerning cache contents. When I find pamphlets with an "agenda" (usually political or religious material or some other kind of propaganda) in caches then I consider that as trash.

 

Especially if I encounter such pamphlets repeatedly in different caches I think I am doing the owner a favour in removing that trash.

 

Naturally I check whether those pamphlets have been used as "emergency log" in caches with full logbooks and leave them alone.

[4wheelin_fool]

Yes, but Jesus loves you.

 

Everyone else thinks you're a muggle.

[+The Jester]

Concerning cache contents. When I find pamphlets with an "agenda" (usually political or religious material or some other kind of propaganda) in caches then I consider that as trash.

 

Especially if I encounter such pamphlets repeatedly in different caches I think I am doing the owner a favour in removing that trash.

 

Naturally I check whether those pamphlets have been used as "emergency log" in caches with full logbooks and leave them alone.

If I think Ronald McDonald is the devil incarnate, would I be doing "the owner a favour" if I removed all the McD toys as trash? Or how about the hardcore animal activist who thinks anything dealing with eating meat is EVIL and all fast food restaurants should be closed? Or pacifists and plastic army men? My point is where do you draw the line with "I consider that as trash"? Eventually there wouldn't be anything in the caches. Even the log book may have to go when the tree huggers get upset about 'killing' them for paper.

[+Snoogans]

Concerning cache contents. When I find pamphlets with an "agenda" (usually political or religious material or some other kind of propaganda) in caches then I consider that as trash.

 

Especially if I encounter such pamphlets repeatedly in different caches I think I am doing the owner a favour in removing that trash.

 

Naturally I check whether those pamphlets have been used as "emergency log" in caches with full logbooks and leave them alone.

If I think Ronald McDonald is the devil incarnate, would I be doing "the owner a favour" if I removed all the McD toys as trash? Or how about the hardcore animal activist who thinks anything dealing with eating meat is EVIL and all fast food restaurants should be closed? Or pacifists and plastic army men? My point is where do you draw the line with "I consider that as trash"? Eventually there wouldn't be anything in the caches. Even the log book may have to go when the tree huggers get upset about 'killing' them for paper.

 

Thankfully the bleeding heart cachers only seem to show their colors online for the most part in my experience.

 

The absurdity of Chick tracts make them a collector's item for me. I have a nice little collection and since my cars all sport a Darwin fish, many get placed right on my car.

 

As far as caching goes, being devoutly Agnostic, a cache or cache swag with religious tones to it don't bother me in the least.

 

I find the whole debate very interesting. Just about every religious minority seems to feel like they have a right to be offended as well as the religion fearing Athiests. As someone said earlier, freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom FROM religion.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Concerning cache contents. When I find pamphlets with an "agenda" (usually political or religious material or some other kind of propaganda) in caches then I consider that as trash.

 

Especially if I encounter such pamphlets repeatedly in different caches I think I am doing the owner a favour in removing that trash.

 

Naturally I check whether those pamphlets have been used as "emergency log" in caches with full logbooks and leave them alone.

 

I assume you remove business cards and gift cards and gift certificates and toss them out as trash as well, since they also promote an agenda. Not a religious agenda, but an agenda all the same.

[+redsox_mark]

"The absurdity of Chick tracts make them a collector's item for me."

 

I just looked up what a Chick tract is. I honestly thought it was something which young ladies left their phone numbers on. Now I know what it is...

[+SKAMS]

If I think Ronald McDonald is the devil incarnate, would I be doing "the owner a favour" if I removed all the McD toys as trash? Or how about the hardcore animal activist who thinks anything dealing with eating meat is EVIL and all fast food restaurants should be closed? Or pacifists and plastic army men? My point is where do you draw the line with "I consider that as trash"? Eventually there wouldn't be anything in the caches. Even the log book may have to go when the tree huggers get upset about 'killing' them for paper.

 

So far I removed once or twice pieces of paper with religious contents. Those papers occurred repeatedly in some geocaches in the area.

 

I have never removed anything which might have had any usability beyond the "agenda" and the use of paper itself (i.e. for lighting fire).

 

For example I would leave alone anything that could be regarded as toy, tool or voucher.

 

I read in another forum about somebody removing a card game issued from a nazi party in germany. As long as that party was considered legal in that country I personally would not remove such "trash" as it is also a card game.

But if it were solely advertising for a party (regardless which) I might remove it.

 

Even anything that could be defined as "Book" would be left alone (be it the bible, the quaran or "dianetics").

 

But I learned from this discussion. In the future I will "trade-up" those pamphlets with some toy and recycle the paper afterwards.

Edited July 18, 2012 by SKAMS

[+Don_J]

If I think Ronald McDonald is the devil incarnate, would I be doing "the owner a favour" if I removed all the McD toys as trash? Or how about the hardcore animal activist who thinks anything dealing with eating meat is EVIL and all fast food restaurants should be closed? Or pacifists and plastic army men? My point is where do you draw the line with "I consider that as trash"? Eventually there wouldn't be anything in the caches. Even the log book may have to go when the tree huggers get upset about 'killing' them for paper.

 

So far I removed once or twice pieces of paper with religious contents. Those papers occurred repeatedly in some geocaches in the area.

 

I have never removed anything which might have had any usability beyond the "agenda" and the use of paper itself (i.e. for lighting fire).

 

For example I would leave alone anything that could be regarded as toy, tool or voucher.

 

I read in another forum about somebody removing a card game issued from a nazi party in germany. As long as that party was considered legal in that country I personally would not remove such "trash" as it is also a card game.

But if it were solely advertising for a party (regardless which) I might remove it.

 

Even anything that could be defined as "Book" would be left alone (be it the bible, the quaran or "dianetics").

 

But I learned from this discussion. In the future I will "trade-up" those pamphlets with some toy and recycle the paper afterwards.

 

Do you wear an official cache police badge when you do this? I hope you never end up in S/W Utah. You'd need a rental truck to hold all the stuff you removed. My question is. What gives you the right to decide for the rest of us that something is trash simply because of what is printed on it, and what isn't? And what give you the right to remove it from someone elses cache?

[+SKAMS]

Do you wear an official cache police badge when you do this? I hope you never end up in S/W Utah. You'd need a rental truck to hold all the stuff you removed. My question is. What gives you the right to decide for the rest of us that something is trash simply because of what is printed on it, and what isn't? And what give you the right to remove it from someone elses cache?

 

As I already wrote, I learned from this thread. In the future I won't "remove" such things. I will "trade" them. So there's no (maybe wrong) reference to the "no agenda" rule needed. Just "Toy in / Pamphlet with agenda out".

 

When I did this in the past I thought I were doing the owner a favour by removing those papers. This seemed to me similar like removing trash which I occasionally find around caches or earth/rotten leaves inside some cache containers.

[+Don_J]

Do you wear an official cache police badge when you do this? I hope you never end up in S/W Utah. You'd need a rental truck to hold all the stuff you removed. My question is. What gives you the right to decide for the rest of us that something is trash simply because of what is printed on it, and what isn't? And what give you the right to remove it from someone elses cache?

 

As I already wrote, I learned from this thread. In the future I won't "remove" such things. I will "trade" them. So there's no (maybe wrong) reference to the "no agenda" rule needed. Just "Toy in / Pamphlet with agenda out".

 

When I did this in the past I thought I were doing the owner a favour by removing those papers. This seemed to me similar like removing trash which I occasionally find around caches or earth/rotten leaves inside some cache containers.

 

The no agenda rule/guideline applies to cache listings, not cache contents. You may think that removing certain printed material is helping the cache owner but how do you that the owner themselves didn't place it there? I believe that this was the case when I was caching between Salt Lake City and Cedar City, Utah back in '07. Also consider that you are labeling literature that describes certain people's beliefs as "trash" and then using that basis to remove it. Someone else may find that material useful. I have found all kinds of stuff in caches including literature, buttons, plaques. Some of it about religion, politics, political candidates, terrorist animal rights groups and so on. The only things that I have ever felt compelled to remove from a cache was live ammo, pornography, and a Bic lighter. For some reason, it's really easy for me to just ignore the rest, sign the logbook and move on the the next cache.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Just a friendly topic for debate:

I DO NOT PLAN ON CREATING ONE

 

Would you hunt a cache dedicated to Jesus or another religious icon....the cache itself would not have any material soliciting you to go to church but perhaps scripture of some other religious writing.

 

Yes I would hunt it. I"m not picky, like others have said, I'm mostly interested in whether it has a logbook or not.

 

As to whether I would agree with it? That's another matter. I think it would be fine, actually, as long as it didn't make any attempts to save my soul. That would be annoying.

Edited July 19, 2012 by The_Incredibles_

[+SKAMS]

The no agenda rule/guideline applies to cache listings, not cache contents. You may think that removing certain printed material is helping the cache owner but how do you that the owner themselves didn't place it there? I believe that this was the case when I was caching between Salt Lake City and Cedar City, Utah back in '07. Also consider that you are labeling literature that describes certain people's beliefs as "trash" and then using that basis to remove it. Someone else may find that material useful.

 

Hi Don_J,

as always it depends also on the location and situation. At that time I found that same paper repeatedly in some caches from different owners in the area. Most probably some person spread that paper in big numbers to the caches in the area. To me this seemed like "spam". Now I won't remove such pamphlets anymore, trading anyhow should not be a problem.

 

What might happen is, that in areas where the amount of paper in (small) caches rises until a "Needs Maintenance" the owners might add a disclaimer "no advertising" to their listing, like many people might already have on their mailboxes. But that's up to the owners.

[+spiritwolf922]

Agendas are not allowed. Religion is an agenda item.

Some things may be borderline, but religion, politics, sex, and a few others are pretty clear. It would not get published.

 

Mine got published. There are those who would argue that baseball is a religion.

[+RoadRoach58]

I think I'm going to join the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if they will allow agnostics too. If a CO wants/places the religious dogma in his cache, I'll probably just leave a miniature yo-yo or a kazoo with it. I don't want it, and don't want to be bothered carrying it, but the next person behind me may sit on a nearby rock and weep when they find out that Jesus truly does love them and they were enlightened by reading that in a geocache. I don't need religious dogma to feel secure. I was born Catholic, raised Southern Baptist, had Methodist grandparents (my dad's side), dated a Yahvist while in college, had great friends that were Presbyterian and other great friends that were Jewish, had the hots for a gorgeous Mormon gal in college, made out with more than one Buddhist in a VW Beetle in my younger day, so I'd say I've had a pretty good smattering of religion. Can't say any of it gave me any great consolation, enlightenment, nor even a warm fuzzy. All I ever learned about all the religions is that they all find some sort of fault in the others. If they're all wrong in some way or another, I need none of them. Just stay off my front porch and outta my yard with it. I'll respect it in other places and leave it for someone else to ponder when they find it. If I find rocks in a cache, from the adjacent gravel pile, or leaves, or a food product, pornography, live ammunition, cigarettes/tobacco products, basically those things specifically described as contraband in the "guidelines", I will remove and CITO it. If it's moldy toy, I'll probably bag that and discard it too, but I hate removing toys if I have nothing to trade up. Trading up to me could be simply adding a new log book in exchange for the moldy blobs that were in the cache, or replacing the container if I have one similar, transferring the original log and tradable contents to the new one. If the religious propaganda is soggy and moldy, well, it's of little use to anyone else at that point, so I might as well remove it. I will NEVER EVER presume I am doing the CO a favor by simply removing something I don't like in a cache, if it is not clearly described as contraband.

[+frinklabs]

I think I'm going to join the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if they will allow agnostics too.

 

It doesn't matter what you are. From http://www.venganza.org/about

 

Anyone and everyone is welcome to join our church including current members of other religions. In addition to the Atheists, Agnostics, and Freethinkers who have joined us, we have a number of Christian (and Muslim, and Hindu and Buddhist …) members and I would love to have more. Note to the religious: You are welcome here.

 

 

Can't say any of it gave me any great consolation, enlightenment, nor even a warm fuzzy.

 

What Pastafarianism will give you is a laugh, and there's never anything wrong with that.

 

Welcome!

 

[+Manville Possum]

 

 

Would you hunt a cache dedicated to Jesus or another religious icon....the cache itself would not have any material soliciting you to go to church but perhaps scripture of some other religious writing.

 

I would seek a geocache dedicated to Jesus. I have logged one already, and I own Christ centered trackable geocoins, but I have gave most of them to my geocaching friends. I got a good deal on them and purchased several.

[+bflentje]

I think I'm going to join the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if they will allow agnostics too. If a CO wants/places the religious dogma in his cache, I'll probably just leave a miniature yo-yo or a kazoo with it. I don't want it, and don't want to be bothered carrying it, but the next person behind me may sit on a nearby rock and weep when they find out that Jesus truly does love them and they were enlightened by reading that in a geocache. I don't need religious dogma to feel secure. I was born Catholic, raised Southern Baptist, had Methodist grandparents (my dad's side), dated a Yahvist while in college, had great friends that were Presbyterian and other great friends that were Jewish, had the hots for a gorgeous Mormon gal in college, made out with more than one Buddhist in a VW Beetle in my younger day, so I'd say I've had a pretty good smattering of religion. Can't say any of it gave me any great consolation, enlightenment, nor even a warm fuzzy. All I ever learned about all the religions is that they all find some sort of fault in the others. If they're all wrong in some way or another, I need none of them. Just stay off my front porch and outta my yard with it. I'll respect it in other places and leave it for someone else to ponder when they find it. If I find rocks in a cache, from the adjacent gravel pile, or leaves, or a food product, pornography, live ammunition, cigarettes/tobacco products, basically those things specifically described as contraband in the "guidelines", I will remove and CITO it. If it's moldy toy, I'll probably bag that and discard it too, but I hate removing toys if I have nothing to trade up. Trading up to me could be simply adding a new log book in exchange for the moldy blobs that were in the cache, or replacing the container if I have one similar, transferring the original log and tradable contents to the new one. If the religious propaganda is soggy and moldy, well, it's of little use to anyone else at that point, so I might as well remove it. I will NEVER EVER presume I am doing the CO a favor by simply removing something I don't like in a cache, if it is not clearly described as contraband.

 

Pu-lease.

[+Konza Coyote]

Religion is one of those topics that just needs to be left out of the geocaching world in my opinion. Shouting out to the world you found your personal spiritual happiness is just fine. When you dedicate a cache and lure someone in just so you can sneak in a point or two about any spiritual topic, you're doing two things: 1) You're now proselytizing, evangelizing, and preaching. 2)I think you're asking for a lot of things that cache owners really dislike: vandalizing, trashing, stealing, etc. a cache. Not to mention, you're also asking for a few flame throwers.

 

I agree, leave religion out of caches. Leave politics out of caches as well, as often is the case more and more, the two are intertwined.

 

An historical church, shrine, or something is fine. It's historical. And it's the history people are seeking as well as the cache.

 

Personally, I find it an affront to my personal choices and the spirit of the cache to find pamphlet after pamphlet asking me if I'm saved. It's like going trick or treating only to find comic books telling my I'm going to bad, fiery places and so is my kid because we participated in this activity. It dampens the mood greatly.

 

My spiritual growth is my responsibility. Your spiritual growth is yours. I like that boundary and would like to see it continued in the hobbies I enjoy.

 

So, no, don't place a cache dedicated to Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha, the Dali Lama, God, Bastet, Aphrodite, or any other religious figure. [And don't cram caches with pamphlets dedicated to such deities either. ]

[+Snoogans]

Religion is one of those topics that just needs to be left out of the geocaching world in my opinion. Shouting out to the world you found your personal spiritual happiness is just fine. When you dedicate a cache and lure someone in just so you can sneak in a point or two about any spiritual topic, you're doing two things: 1) You're now proselytizing, evangelizing, and preaching. 2)I think you're asking for a lot of things that cache owners really dislike: vandalizing, trashing, stealing, etc. a cache. Not to mention, you're also asking for a few flame throwers.

 

I agree, leave religion out of caches. Leave politics out of caches as well, as often is the case more and more, the two are intertwined.

 

An historical church, shrine, or something is fine. It's historical. And it's the history people are seeking as well as the cache.

 

Personally, I find it an affront to my personal choices and the spirit of the cache to find pamphlet after pamphlet asking me if I'm saved. It's like going trick or treating only to find comic books telling my I'm going to bad, fiery places and so is my kid because we participated in this activity. It dampens the mood greatly.

 

My spiritual growth is my responsibility. Your spiritual growth is yours. I like that boundary and would like to see it continued in the hobbies I enjoy.

 

So, no, don't place a cache dedicated to Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha, the Dali Lama, God, Bastet, Aphrodite, or any other religious figure. [And don't cram caches with pamphlets dedicated to such deities either. ]

You might find cat herding relaxing if you think folks will leave their faith behind while they cache. It ain't ever gonna happen and this debate will go on and on.

 

I can't bother myself to tax a brain cell about other folks religious stuff as long as they are not wearing a suicide vest while standing near me. I'm confident in my belief system as a Devout Agnostic. Religious symbols and info in a cache are no affront to me. I quite like caches on church property and especially in cemeteries.

[ll JK ll]

I would go after a cache that's religiously themed the same as I would any other cache. Even if there were proselytizing materials inside I would ignore them and continue on my way.

 

As a Christian I understand people of various faiths would like to use the Geocaching platform to spread their message but I think the rules should be respected.

[+geodarts]

I can't bother myself to tax a brain cell about other folks religious stuff as long as they are not wearing a suicide vest while standing near me. I'm confident in my belief system as a Devout Agnostic. Religious symbols and info in a cache are no affront to me. I quite like caches on church property and especially in cemeteries.

 

Unless I am in the mood for religious kitsch, I usually do not look at religious tracts or other items that are sometimes left in caches. And although I sometimes ask myself what would Buddha do, I can't imagine that Buddha would be looking for a plastic container or ammo can -- so generally religion is not a factor one way or the other for me. It is no different than caches that celebrate the Boy Scouts or other controversial groups. There are many caches that have an underlying religious, political, social, or economic belief. Find them or not.

 

In light of recent events, perhaps the more pertinent question is not whether you would look for a cache dedicated to Jesus, but would you look for a cache that offended certain segments of a particular religion. I guess that gets down to whether there is someone wearing a suicide vest standing next to you.

[+Understandblue]

Since I don't think it would make all my skin melt off like in Raiders of the Lost Ark I wouldn't mind at all

 

But I agree with Cezanne - the best ones draw you to something interesting/beautiful. There's one in my fave vacation destination that is at a chapel with a fascinating story - great spot for a cache.

 

I've also seen sin themed ones here and other fun, lightly done themes along the same line.

 

None of that is as offensive as the dead rat I found under a lamp skirt

[+Don_J]

Does anyone besides me see the irony of this thread being resurrected.?

[Mr.Yuck]

Does anyone besides me see the irony of this thread being resurrected.?

 

I don't get it. No, of course I get it, good one.

 

I just don't know why it was even created in the first place, since a cache dedicated to religion is obviously against the guidelines, and has been for years. Should I start a drilling holes into trees thread? A thread on attaching keyholders to active railroad thracks?

[+CanadianRockies]

Does anyone besides me see the irony of this thread being resurrected.?

I don't get it. No, of course I get it, good one.

 

I just don't know why it was even created in the first place, since a cache dedicated to religion is obviously against the guidelines, and has been for years. Should I start a drilling holes into trees thread? A thread on attaching keyholders to active railroad thracks?

Actually, a cache (or trackable) dedicated to religion is not against the guidelines. A cache listing page that promotes a religious agenda is against the guidelines.

Edited September 20, 2012 by CanadianRockies

[+SwineFlew]

Does anyone besides me see the irony of this thread being resurrected.?

I don't get it. No, of course I get it, good one.

 

I just don't know why it was even created in the first place, since a cache dedicated to religion is obviously against the guidelines, and has been for years. Should I start a drilling holes into trees thread? A thread on attaching keyholders to active railroad thracks?

Actually, a cache (or trackable) dedicated to religion is not against the guidelines. A cache listing page that promotes a religious agenda is against the guidelines.

Like this one.

[+alldatndensum]

I don't see a problem with someone basing a cache on any religious figure whether it be Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, etc. As long as the cache is more about the HISTORY of those characters and not about creating converts, then let it be. I'd look for it.

 

As a Christian, though, I don't believe that a geocache should be done to preach or try to convert others. Sure, I want people to share my beliefs, but I know that forcing people to listen to me through a cache listing would just turn people off. However, if someone put out a Christmas themed cache (for example) with a bison tube hidden in a manger scene, I don't think it should be kicked out of the system. It's just something people like and wanted to make a cache based on those likes.

[+Kryten]

Once me and some of my friends created a really cool cache with great contents. The following day we went back to check on it and it had been opened and the swag was gone. A few days later one of the girls saw the swag in a nearby garden but when we checked it wasn't there either. We like to believe that it went to heaven.

[Mr.Yuck]

Does anyone besides me see the irony of this thread being resurrected.?

I don't get it. No, of course I get it, good one.

 

I just don't know why it was even created in the first place, since a cache dedicated to religion is obviously against the guidelines, and has been for years. Should I start a drilling holes into trees thread? A thread on attaching keyholders to active railroad thracks?

Actually, a cache (or trackable) dedicated to religion is not against the guidelines. A cache listing page that promotes a religious agenda is against the guidelines.

Like this one.

 

Keep in mind (and I thought of this several hours after first reading your post) that the cache owner of the religious tract cache lives in a State where the reviewer allowed caches from all over the State, and in many cases well over 100 miles from the coordinates, to be incorporated into Geo-art in a lake, before being reprimanded by Groundspeak. It's a fact of life some reviewers are less strict than others, and an observation made by BrianSnat in the 3rd or 4th post to the thread. For example, If TTJ picked up that religious tract cache, and moved it 150 miles west into the Adirondacks, it ain't getting published. Just my opinion, of course. Who knows how appeals would react to TTJ's cache if it were originally rejected somewhere.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Mr.Yuck

[Mr.Yuck]

Does anyone besides me see the irony of this thread being resurrected.?

I don't get it. No, of course I get it, good one.

 

I just don't know why it was even created in the first place, since a cache dedicated to religion is obviously against the guidelines, and has been for years. Should I start a drilling holes into trees thread? A thread on attaching keyholders to active railroad thracks?

Actually, a cache (or trackable) dedicated to religion is not against the guidelines. A cache listing page that promotes a religious agenda is against the guidelines.

 

Well my post was more for comedic purposes. C'mon, Don made a funny, why can't I? How ridiculous would the keyholders attached to live railroad tracks thread be? Oh yeah, and of course trackables can have an agenda.

 

After carefully re-reading the OP, I could go either way on where he was going with this. And that guy started some good threads over the summer, and hasn't been seen around here in a while. I agree with the observations of alldatndensum, made after my post, which I'm quoting below:

 

I don't see a problem with someone basing a cache on any religious figure whether it be Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, etc. As long as the cache is more about the HISTORY of those characters and not about creating converts, then let it be. I'd look for it.

 

As a Christian, though, I don't believe that a geocache should be done to preach or try to convert others. Sure, I want people to share my beliefs, but I know that forcing people to listen to me through a cache listing would just turn people off. However, if someone put out a Christmas themed cache (for example) with a bison tube hidden in a manger scene, I don't think it should be kicked out of the system. It's just something people like and wanted to make a cache based on those likes.

[+Too Tall John]

Actually, a cache (or trackable) dedicated to religion is not against the guidelines. A cache listing page that promotes a religious agenda is against the guidelines.

Like this one.

Keep in mind (and I thought of this several hours after first reading your post) that the cache owner of the religious tract cache lives in a State where the reviewer allowed caches from all over the State, and in many cases well over 100 miles from the coordinates, to be incorporated into Geo-art in a lake, before being reprimanded by Groundspeak. It's a fact of life some reviewers are less strict than others, and an observation made by BrianSnat in the 3rd or 4th post to the thread. For example, If TTJ picked up that religious tract cache, and moved it 150 miles west into the Adirondacks, it ain't getting published. Just my opinion, of course. Who knows how appeals would react to TTJ's cache if it were originally rejected somewhere.

I'm sorry, what's the agenda of that cache, other than to talk about a type of swag one might find in a cache? I edited what I wanted to say pretty brutally before I submitted the cache for the review process, which by the way, included a vetting by other reviewers than just NHPride.

[+irisisleuk]

As long as items in a cache or the cache owner (with his cache page) doesn't tell me I NEED of SHOULD to do something besides writing my name on the log, I'm fine with everything.

 

As soon as someone writes on his cache page that I should/must become a member of a church, a library or even a McDonalds, he crossed the line. Information about a church, a politician, a Burger King or whatever is fine, since I'm always interested in new subjects and other people's interests and opinions. And if you know how to handle a gps you can also handle information and make up your own mind, and form your own opinion on the subject.

But as a CO I would be careful with a cache that represents more than just objective information on a subject, cause as soon as you express an opinion it's a matter of time and you will receive logs you probably won't like . You'll keep it more fun for everyone if the cache page is not stating any opinion, but is informative and fun to read or solve.

 

And if you think there is a cacher who enjoys finding leaflets on Jesus/Mohammed/Buddha in a cache, I think you're mistaken, I would rather find a broken McDonalds toy . And I'm pretty sure no-one will change their believes after finding a leaflet in a cache, it might even have a negative effect on one's opinion on a religion.

 

But in every country (or state) people have different opinions in general. Over here in the Netherlands I think leaflets (on any matter that promotes membership) would soon end up in a trash can, since nobody will be interested in reading them. And it's not what caching is about; I think a geocache is: information on the cache page and fun things in the cache!

[+thebruce0]

As soon as someone writes on his cache page that I should/must become a member of a church, a library or even a McDonalds, he crossed the line. Information about a church, a politician, a Burger King or whatever is fine

Well, now, generally speaking.

It used to be just mentioning a business was a Bad Thing. Enough drama erupted about that though that the reviewers can now decide for themselves whether they feel "marketed" to, and decide to publish the listing or not. So yeah, generally speaking, mentioning stuff for informational purposes won't raise a flag; just be careful of reviewers could infer.

(just thought I'd add

[knowschad]

As long as items in a cache or the cache owner (with his cache page) doesn't tell me I NEED of SHOULD to do something besides writing my name on the log, I'm fine with everything.

<etc.>

Unless the cache page was edited post-publication, it would never say that. The anti-agenda guideline would kick in way before it ever got to that point. Now... what goes in as swag is a completely different subject than what is on the cache page.