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lumbricus

Cloisters

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I like them too, its always impressive when you step out in to a cloister with its change of light and shadow from a dark and cool church.

There is a category "Abbeys, Convents and Monasteries", maybe cloisters fit into. They are often "connecting" a church with the Monastery, some are just "behind" a church surrounded by residential and working quarters - but i'm no historican nor catholic :P

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I would like to have the focus on the cloisters. In the monasteries categroy is the focus on the monasteries. Sometimes old churches have cloisters too.

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Just to throw in my 2c worth, I have come across several cloisters in south east Asia, principally Thailand. Also a few in the Commonwealth of Australia. Thus they are globally available.

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I took some text from the "Abbeys, Convents and Monasteries" category (hope it's okay):

 

Description:

 

A cloister is a courtyard surrounded by corridors and galleries and is usually located in abbeys, convents and monasteries. It is used to develop the surrounding monastery and convent buildings. Previously he was an important common room of the monastery. The open yard area was often used as a garden or cemetery. Elements include arcades, arches, and a well/cistern. Cloisters often served as a burial place for the canons. (Legler, Rolf: Der Kreuzgang, ein Bautypus des Mittelalters. Verlag Peter Lang, Frankfurt am Main 1989, ISBN 3-631-40706-8)

 

Cloisters around the world.

 

Expanded Description:

 

Any cloister may be included. Every religion is welcome!

 

We will also accept inactive sites, or those that may be classified as "ruins," or that have been converted to other uses -- as long as adequate documentation can be provided about its status as a cloister.

 

If you have any question about the suitability of any particular location for this category, please contact an officer.

 

Instructions for Posting a Cloisters Waymark:

 

NAME: This naming convention MUST be followed:

Abbey/Monastery/Convent name - Location

Examples:

Cloister Number One - München, Germany

Cloister Number Two - Hometown, Iowa

 

1. Personally obtained GPS coordinates. These should be taken as near to the entrance as possible.

 

2. At least 2 personally taken photos. One should show an overview of the cloister and the other should show a detail picture from something you’re impressed. Multiple photos are encouraged to give as much of an overview as possible. Please do NOT include your GPSr in any photo!

 

3. A good description of the waymark with as much background as possible. Do a little research to make your waymark a valuable contribution to the category.

 

Instructions for Visiting a Waymark in this Category:

 

Describe your visit, including the date, with as much detail as possible, AND contribute at least ONE PHOTO, original, different from those already in the gallery.

 

Variables:

 

Full name of the abbey/monastery/convent

Address

Religious affiliation

Date founded/constructed

Web Site

Status of Use

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Last month I visited a wonderful cloister. I still think that a cloister category would be a good addition. Second try?

 

 

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5 hours ago, lumbricus said:

Last month I visited a wonderful cloister. I still think that a cloister category would be a good addition. Second try?

 

 

You've waited long enough.

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I hope this category will pass because, there are magnificent cloisters in France, it is always a pleasure to admire them and pass there with the silence that reigns there.

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Hurry so I can know what the required photos are for the one near me. :o

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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2020 at 3:48 AM, lumbricus said:

Last month I visited a wonderful cloister. I still think that a cloister category would be a good addition. Second try?

 

 

 

I am sufficiently uneducated/ignorant that I still don't know exactly what a cloister is. That notwithstanding, I'm not about to dismiss a category proposed by Andreas without embarking upon further research. About time I went and educated myself... ... ... ... ... ...

...merriam-webster was not much help - neither was dictionary.com. Neither was Wiki. Definitions of a cloister encountered so far enable sufficient latitude as to make a precise definition of a cloister difficult for me to grasp.

 

Andreas, I exist in the new world. You live your day to day life in the old world. I feel that, in some, picayune to me, meaningful to you, situations the two worlds may never collide. :( :)

 

Nevertheless, if the "cloistered" :) among us feel this proposal worthy, I would never be one to voice opposition to it.

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII

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On 6/1/2020 at 10:53 AM, pmaupin said:

I hope this category will pass because, there are magnificent cloisters in France, it is always a pleasure to admire them and pass there with the silence that reigns there.

Now, you see, because Philippe is a friend, AND because I pretty much consider Andreas a friend, as well, I would always vote in favour of its passing peer review, in spite of my ignorance. For all I know I've passed through/under/by/near many cloisters in my travels. What do I know?

Keith

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Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2012 at 10:12 PM, lumbricus said:

R.I.P.

That was the Andreas of long ago. Now, show us The Andreas of TODAY!!! YEAH! Go for it!!!

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII

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On 6/1/2020 at 11:48 AM, lumbricus said:

Last month I visited a wonderful cloister. I still think that a cloister category would be a good addition. Second try?

 

 

 

Why did it fail last time? (Or, why were voters against it?)

Can that/has that been rectified?

 

Interesting category. :)

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I like the idea.

 

If I remember correctly, it failed the last time, because most people had no idea what it was about. It mainly failed because of being redundant with the "Abbeys, Convents and Monasteries" category. One problem is that "cloister" in English can also be used as a synonym for monastery. But a cloister (in the sense of the category) is an architectural feature, not a religious building or organization. This difference must be absolutely clear this time.

 

It is also true, that many cloisters are in present or former monasteries (or next to cathedrals). But there are a lot of monasteries without a cloister and there are enough cloisters not near an abbey or a cathedral. Our state archives is a Neo-Gothic building from the late 19th century with a nice cloister. "The Cloisters" is an art museum in New York with four medieval European cloisters that were transferred over the ocean in the 1930s. I have also seen cloisters in Neo-Gothic hotels. I am sure there are quite a number of cloisters also in North America, especially in areas with some French or Spanish heritage. You just need to know what to look for.

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1 minute ago, fi67 said:

One problem is that "cloister" in English can also be used as a synonym for monastery.

That was my original thinking of the definition.

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5 hours ago, fi67 said:

I like the idea.

 

If I remember correctly, it failed the last time, because most people had no idea what it was about. It mainly failed because of being redundant with the "Abbeys, Convents and Monasteries" category. One problem is that "cloister" in English can also be used as a synonym for monastery. But a cloister (in the sense of the category) is an architectural feature, not a religious building or organization. This difference must be absolutely clear this time.

 

It is also true, that many cloisters are in present or former monasteries (or next to cathedrals). But there are a lot of monasteries without a cloister and there are enough cloisters not near an abbey or a cathedral. Our state archives is a Neo-Gothic building from the late 19th century with a nice cloister. "The Cloisters" is an art museum in New York with four medieval European cloisters that were transferred over the ocean in the 1930s. I have also seen cloisters in Neo-Gothic hotels. I am sure there are quite a number of cloisters also in North America, especially in areas with some French or Spanish heritage. You just need to know what to look for.

That will be very difficult to convey in the description or in the title for us poorer cousins on the wrong side of the Atlantic.

  • Funny 1

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Posted (edited)

When I arrived on the Waymarking scene I was utterly unfamiliar with the nomenclature and terminology associated with religious buildings, specifically churches and cathedrals. I quickly learned the (more or less) proper use of descriptors such as chancel, narthex, vestry, nave and sanctuary, to name a few. The latter two remain a source of confusion for me, primarily due to a lack of proper memory function, secondarily because the dichotomy apparently is germane, for the most part, to buildings older than those of my experience.

 

Now I'm presented with cloisters, a descriptive word of which, in this context, I was ignorant prior to last week.

 

In an attempt to shorten a potentially long treatise, I must ask: Are cloisters likely to be significantly architecturally different from, or more extravagant in their execution than the buildings to which they are attached? If we're not Waymarking chancels, clerestories and naves, is there a compelling reason why we should be Waymarking cloisters?

 

I pose these questions in the hope of attaining further knowledge of the historical, architectural, even religious, significance of cloisters as entities, theoretically, if not physically, separate and apart from their parent buildings, thereby to convince me of their viability as a potential Waymarking category.

 

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII
  • Upvote 1

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On 6/3/2020 at 12:46 PM, Bear and Ragged said:

 

Why did it fail last time? (Or, why were voters against it?)

Can that/has that been rectified?

 

Interesting category. :)

 

The link is dead now so sadly I can't read the comments from 2012. I think the main problem was, that most of the voters didn't know what a cloister is.

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9 hours ago, ScroogieII said:

In an attempt to shorten a potentially long treatise, I must ask: Are cloisters likely to be significantly architecturally different from, or more extravagant in their execution than the buildings to which they are attached? If we're not Waymarking chancels, clerestories and naves, is there a compelling reason why we should be Waymarking cloisters?

 

Naves, chancels, ... are mostly located inside a church, or a part of it. Cloisters are often attached to a church, or part of a monastery. If a waymarker is interested in all parts of a monastery, I mean if he/she tries to get pictures from the interior, asking people where the cloister is, spending some time to get pictures from all angels, adding all this to the monastery waymark, writes a good description about the monastery and the cloister (6 pictures minimum), we wouldn't need a separate category. The search function could bring us the cloister results.

 

On the other hand a cloister category would set the focus on the cloisters. We could collect/document many pictures of these beautiful structures worldwide. I haven't found a worldwide collection online yet. Here are some in Germany Cloisters in Germany

 

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I am beginning to understand the historical purpose of a cloister, but not its use, as yet.

 

If, from left to right, we have a monastery housing (cloistered) monks, a cloister, then the outdoor world of the lay people, who actually used the cloister, the monks or the lay people? Or, historically, did it remain unused, serving the purpose of a barrier, or buffer, between the monastic world and the lay world?

Keith

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22 hours ago, ScroogieII said:

I am beginning to understand the historical purpose of a cloister, but not its use, as yet.

 

If, from left to right, we have a monastery housing (cloistered) monks, a cloister, then the outdoor world of the lay people, who actually used the cloister, the monks or the lay people? Or, historically, did it remain unused, serving the purpose of a barrier, or buffer, between the monastic world and the lay world?

Keith

I think this is a misunderstanding. The cloister is not between the monks an the outside world. It is in or near the center of the monastery.

 

There are a lot of exceptions and regional adaptions, but often the cloister is between the dormitories and the church. Usually around a square inner yard, that is often used to grow medicinal herbs and spices, occasionally a burial ground or a plaza with a fountain or something like that.

 

The cloister is open with many columns towards this yard, covered by a Gothic arc ceiling (usually), and often completely walled towards the outside.

 

The purpose of a cloister is manifold, but usually very practical and not strictly attached to spiritual processes and rituals. It allows the monks to reach the church in a comfortable way, no matter how hot the sun or strong the snowy wind. It is almost outdoors, but still safe from the weather. It allows a short contemplative walk almost in the nature anytime without leaving the monastery. If I remember correctly I have also seen graves of notable monks in some cloisters (not in the yard, in the covered part), and maybe some stations of the cross, but usually there are little to no extra decorations except from the Gothic architecture.

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Here's a question - the Nelson-Atkins Museum here in Kansas City actually has a 15th century French cloister within its collection.  Since the cloister has OBVIOUSLY been moved, would it been accepted in the category?

I thought I remembered it when this conversation came up...

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Often used to connect various parts of the building.

Chapel, living accommodation, hospital/infirmary, kitchen etc.

Often square around a Quad (Quadrangle).

Can be used to walk and meditate/contemplate.

 

165.jpg

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1180 -> Berchtesgaden

Thanks fi67 for your good explanation.

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Posted (edited)

OK fi67, I pretty much get your description. Being on the western side of the "big pond" I can't recall ever seeing a cloister, but no matter.

 

Now, Andreas, the ball's still in your court. Are you going to go ahead with the category? I believe I would if I were you, though it might face the "non global" issue.

 

EDIT: I would certainly vote in favour, should this proposal go to peer review, simply because I like historic, heritage and architectural categories.

Everyone knows I am an aficionado of Church related categories. Its only partly because, a rule, they fit all three categories mentioned above: historic, heritage and architectural. The final part is that, while I've mellowed somewhat since leaving BK-Hunters in terms of Waymarking in general, when/if I should run across an old church in the future, I'll still Waymark it to death. IF, just IF, I were ever to stumble across a cloister in my travels, I would probably drop everything I was doing at the time to Waymark it, on the spot!

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII

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On 6/9/2020 at 7:52 AM, lumbricus said:

1180 -> Berchtesgaden

Thanks fi67 for your good explanation.

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That architecture looks typically Romanesque (rounded arches and sculpted capitals).  Consider posting it in the Romanesque Architecture category if not already done.  Love the wild orchid pic on your avatar.  It's an ophrys but what species?

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