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I guess it had to happen sooner or later. Unscrupulous person/s offering things for sale here among us geocachers and taking the money and not sending the product. I have submitted mail fraud papers to the USPS for their investigation in my dealing with him.

I could not in good conscience fail to sound the alarm. I believe 99.9% of us are honest geocachers and buyers/sellers on this forum,it's a shame a wolf has to come among us. sharpshutr

 

[This message was edited by Elias on June 11, 2003 at 01:23 PM.]

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Good observation! I almost bought his etrec vista and two cds for $200. The deal was almost too good to be true, infact it was! He only wanted the money order here too. Hopefully no one got scammed, things like this ruin the whole honor system of the sport, soon we are all going to have to be members inorder to see the coordinates so pirates don't go and steal all of our caches also!

STEALTH SCOUT

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I do not know what happened between you and him so I will not say anything about it. I was interested in the Vista and made several contacts with him and had a deal worked out for it and the software, then he said he would only accept MO and the red flags went up and bowed out of the deal.

I have been burned before on a deal like this and nop matter how much I wanted this I walked (no ran) away from it.

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sharpshutr,

I know how your feeling. Like rayt333 I have been burned before and as sad as it is to say, it happened to me more than once. I no longer trust anyone selling something through classified ads or especially on the street.

 

As much of a pain in the A** it is, there should be some form of escrow service in place if the seller is "unknown" to the community. It's the only way to protect ones self from being burned by sellers who only accept MO's.

 

When ever I buy something off eBay, the seller must accept Paypal or I will not bother with the auction. I also check closely for negative or NO feedback, its the only way I feel safe.

 

It may take awhile, but with luck the USPS will prosecute to the fullest extent and restitution will be made back to you. Good Luck

 

TEAM SHIBBY!!!!

 

Krs, Kar & Na

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I am all for keeping the coordinates only to members, ill be the first to pay for such a service, please not to much. i believe in the honor system, that is what makes this sport so fun, but something needs to be done to protect it. If it were protected i would be more willing to put more substantial things in the caches, does any one agree?, or maybey im wrong all together. what are your views? e-mail me at woody33@charter.net. please give subject. i delete alot of junk mail.

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paying to be a meber might slow down some of these guys but the really hardcore a##holes will still be around, they have it in their blood to be that way and get off on making others have a hard time of it....membership would be a start though...sorry to hear about your trouble, I know that gives the forum a bad taste...

 

....in the end, there can be only ONE....

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it sometimes helps to understand who the person is if they can give you references to things like ebay feedback or heatware (www.heatware.com) or similar rating services.

 

But this does suck. For safer transactions with unknown persons, check out services like escrow.com

https://www.escrow.com/solutions/escrow/process.asp

 

Not sure what costs are involved with using it, but it looks interesting and I know there are a couple others like it out there. I don't know them off the top of my head and I've never used one before. But I do a fair amount of trading online with anonymous people and have found ebay feedback and heatware (if available) to be a pretty good gauge.

 

If you aren't comfortable with a person, offer to pay half up front and half on delivery. If they balk, they either have their own trust issues or are being sketchy.

 

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.

Flat_MiGeo_A88.gif

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Because I felt like spamming icon_wink.gif I thought I'd post these. They are guidelines for trading on a trading board (not ebay) I do some buying/selling/swapping on. A lot of these assume you are using heatware as an evaluation system, but a lot of them apply to trading and selling online in general. I thought they might be helpful for anyone making deals here:

 

A brief guide for traders and suggestions what to do first if you think you have been ripped off by another trader:

 

1) Always ship with insurance and tracking #'s. If shipping expensive items, ship with delivery confirmation. (if a buyer... ask for these things from the seller for your protection)

 

2) Always ask for a real name and home address, especially when trading with somebody who is unknown or has no heatware evals.

 

3) Always have other party ship first a if trader is unknown or has no heatware evals.

 

4) Always do a search on a trader if you are unsure of his credibility. (ask the community if you want opinions on someone)

 

5) If you do not receive the goods/money right away, email the other trader, and request action.

 

6) If said trader does not respond in two working days, email again. Be patient.

 

8) Please do not jump to conclusions until a reasonable amount of time has passed. Two weeks with no response is a sure bet that something is wrong.

 

9) Do not make decisions while you are upset. Only post or email after you have calmed down. This is most important. Making decisions while enraged will not help your cause; it can only hurt it.

 

10) Do not post derogatory remarks about said trader. Instead, post your situation in a calm and friendly manner. Flaming will only raise tempers, hurting your chance of getting your goods or money back.

 

11) Ask if anyone else has had trouble with said trader. It is always good to know as much as possible when trading with someone, especially if you think you got ripped by that person.

 

12) If said trader does not rectify situation, and action is requred, post a negative heatware eval for said trader. (if they use this...)

 

13) If said trader does not rectify situation, and action is required, post a thread stating "Do not trade with this person." If said trader straightens out the mess he/she has created, and everyone who is involved is satisfied, update the community in that thread.

 

14) Use common sense when trading. If your gut tells you something is up... it probably is.

 

16) You can file complaints about Internet fraud directly with the FBI at their Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFFC).

 

17) Post heatware evals for your deals (if you and the other person use it), especially if requested to do so by the other trader. If you were treated well, a good eval is part of the deal, and the trader has earned it. If you were not treated well, other traders need to know what went wrong.

 

Last but not least............

 

18) Be nice and courteous, Nobody likes to be spoken to in a RUDE manner.

 

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.

Flat_MiGeo_A88.gif

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let us know how that goes. icon_smile.gif I've never sent one in myself.

 

Though my S.O. filed a complaint with the post office over a bogus ebay sale. She bought a tiffany ring, brought it to Tiffany to get it resized and was told it was fake. She emailed the person she bought it from and relayed the message, asking for her money back. The person would only give her $20 back and wanted the ring also.

 

She filed a complaint, post office slammed the seller, and suddenly the seller is all apologetic. Gave her all the money back and let her keep the ring icon_smile.gif

 

I'd like to hear your story as it unfolds icon_smile.gif

 

--------

trippy1976 - Team KKF2A

Saving geocaches - one golf ball at a time.

Flat_MiGeo_A88.gif

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I bought his GPS, or so I thought. I talked to him several times on the phone and he sounded trustworthy (phone lines must scramble intuition). I would also like to receive my money back and will be interested in a class action suit. I have his physical address and phone number, so please contact me with some information on how to pursue this endeavor.

 

Corey Tharp

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I'm sorry to hear you've had problems. I've sold a few things on eBay and bought a couple but it's such a hassle. I've given up on it for the most part. I'm selling software on these forums for exactly that reason. I'd rather sell it here, to a geocacher, for less than it's worth than to mess with eBay.

 

The thing that soured me on eBay was that I got many replies to sell an item for more than it was worth. But only if I would run it as a credit card number through a machine and only if I would send it overnight international to Malaysia. After a little research, I found that to be a scam. If you are selling a small expensive item, do NOT send it overseas unless you get the money first and it clears your bank. Also, don't run a number through a credit card machine because the number is certainly stolen. When the legitimate owner of the card reverses the charges you will be stuck with the cost and you won't have your item.

 

I don't know if this has changed, but PayPal will not protect you if you send your merchandise outside the US.

 

-E

 

--

N35°32.981 W98°34.631

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quote:
Originally posted by Phideo:

Well I think this is dreadful too, who is he? what's his handle? I keep reading these posts and all I see is "Him". I too buy and sell here and just don't want to be burned either.


 

Yeah, I've looked at a few units for sale here, but I think now I will stick with avoiding buying anything from here.

 

--------------------

Searching for the lost, Geocache.......

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I heard of someone else who was riped off about a year ago buying a GPS at Ebay. I've never bought through them and can't figure out why anyone would take a chance.

 

Aren't most sales from venders anyway? The few bucks you save just isn't worth the aggravation. It's not only the price but the support. If you have a problem with a product you buy from a reputable dealer, you can return it, swap it, etc. Isn't that worth the 5%-10% savings to buy through Ebay?

 

DOn't you get what you pay for?

 

Just my observations.

 

Alan

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

I heard of someone else who was riped off about a year ago buying a GPS at Ebay. I've never bought through them and can't figure out why anyone would take a chance.

 

Aren't most sales from venders anyway? The few bucks you save just isn't worth the aggravation. It's not only the price but the support. If you have a problem with a product you buy from a reputable dealer, you can return it, swap it, etc. Isn't that worth the 5%-10% savings to buy through Ebay?

 

DOn't you get what you pay for?

 

Just my observations.

 

Alan


 

Well, yes... it IS worth it. I buy nearly everything on eBay and save a lot more than 5-10%. On items that you don't mind being used (ie GPS unit), you can saves loads of cash. The way you avoid getting ripped off is by looking at their feedback ratings... you can bet that anyone with over a 95% positive feedback is a sure bet. I have only ben ripped off once and that was the first time I ever bid on something because I was foolish and did not look at feedback. Ever since, I have bought dozens of items with faster, cheaper shipping and an excellent deal, even on new items...

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Well who is this clown ?? I have been thinking about doing some deals here, but I do not want to get taken for a ride........I need a name....the best way to put this clown out of business is to advertise who it is and what exactly they have done. I can pretty much read what this person has done, but who is it ?? icon_confused.gif

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif"If you don't know where you're going, you'll wind up somewhere else" ......Yogi Berra

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Agree

 

quote:
Originally posted by woody33:

I am all for keeping the coordinates only to members, ill be the first to pay for such a service, please not to much. i believe in the honor system, that is what makes this sport so fun, but something needs to be done to protect it. If it were protected i would be more willing to put more substantial things in the caches, does any one agree?, or maybey im wrong all together. what are your views? e-mail me at woody33@charter.net. please give subject. i delete alot of junk mail.


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"eBay is the only way to go!! It's sad you can't trust anyone unelss they have great feedback."

 

E*Bay is good, but I have been burned there also. There are dishonest people no matter where you go unfortunately.

 

************************************************************

"Sometimes you gotta look like an *** to get that cache!"...huntforit

************************************************************

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If anyone is worried about someone accepting only money orders, I may have a helpful tip. I am an avid ebayer. I live in Canada, so I have to be especially cautious on how I pay for things. Before I got my Paypal account I only accepted Money Orders. ONe of my Buyers, the one i sold my etrex yellow to, used a service affiliated with western union to pay me. www.bidpay.com takes your money and tells the seller that the money is there. They wait for the buyer to recieve the product before they release the money order to the seller. VERY secure if you ask me. If you guys are worried, take a look at the site.

 

csaindon

 

Garmin e-Trex series all the way!!! (Currently e-trex Legend) ;)

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Filing with the postal inspectors for postal fraud is a tool many people advise. You can go down to your post office and receive the paperwork. Fill it out and send it in.

Filing with the FBI online with their internet fraud division is another tool. I also did this. I filled out the online paperwork one evening. The FBI contacted my local law enforcement the next morning. The detective of my local law enforcement contacted the local law enforcement in the area of the seller. I printed all me emails and scanned copies of money order, and registered mail receipt.

The detective also contacted the seller by phone and received only voice mail and no return calls came back to her. My detective ( I call her that now) thought that the seller was not only possibly ripping me off but was rude for not calling her back. She contacted his local police and had them go by and chat with him at his work. Persuasively! He sent me a money order the day they caught up with him. Of course much more went on behind the scenes to this and the bogus seller had to be forced into every move. Let's just say the FBI does their job well, and if your local police and the local police of the scammer work together and are diligent you stand a good chance. And oh yeah one more thing -don't piss off a woman detective if you want to cheat people. sharpshutr :P

 

P.S. This took place in April- May of this year. I received an inquirya couple weeks ago that the Postal Inspectors were going to look into this and that I should make an attempt to try and resolve it myself if possible. What a difference in the two ways from two federal agencies.

Edited by sharpshutr
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Actually this is a good place to buy from. I have purchased and or traded on here and only had the one problem. Odds are much better here than Ebay in my opinion just because it is a smaller community. You are right it was ONE who did it. Don't let the ONE ruin it for all. Let's just be careful,honest and provide good communication with direct answers to both buyers and sellers. sharpshutr

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I have not sold anything in this forum (yet) but have sold many items on ebay in the last 5 yrs of which 95% I requested a money order. I always gave the buyer a complete address and phone number. I never shafted anyone but have had a few buyers try to shaft me. Like never sending any money yet insisting they did. But could never prove it. Had one claim they never received the items but I had tracking on it and could prove they did. Had one guy claim the part was defective and he seemed like a reasonable person, so I told him to send it back and I would refund the money. He sent back a different item than what I sold him. Had the serial numbers of the item and it was not what he sent back. Trying to screw me and I told him so, never heard from him again. All these items were small change, less that $100 etc.

 

So not only are there crooked sellers, they are crooked buyers.

 

I am sure you know that Paypal costs the seller $$.

 

I know someone who just thought he purchased a 1970 Chevelle SS396 on ebay for around $17,000 and change. Buy the buyer refused to sell it to him because he thought he should have got more from the bidding. There was no reserve. So this guy complained to Ebay and they did nothing. The guy has the car re-listed for sale. Now the alleged buyer is the a-hole and the seller is flaming him calling him the crook because he would not pay more money than the bid price, yet Ebay will do nothing because its a "he said" vs. "he said" situation.

 

Here is a quote from him about the deal;

 

NO opinion necessary, the truth is he just didn't get the bid he wanted at 16,900, and was making up excuses to not honor the bid.

 

He said I was stealing his car, and my winning bid was a joke. The joke is probably going to be on him because it probably won't fetch the same price again.

 

Al

 

I did thast already twice in fact. The seller responded to my objections over not being able to inspect the car by relisting immediately.

 

I have complained twice and the ebay person Brady said there wasn't enough info to stop his relisting. I frankly couldn't believe the answer.

 

I stated I have the money, I want the car at the winning price, and he refused to alow an inspection of the vehicle even though there was no mention of that in his terms & conditions, and his response was relisting the car, they said not enough evidence twice.

 

I called ebay a joke and that was it. 

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It appears that the screwor has more rights here than the screwee. If the powers-what-be think that this encourages people to shop and buy at the garage sale they are sadly mistaken. A criminal, yes criminal, here has more 'right' to be protected than the honest folks. We can not know about him but he already knows about us. We enjoy politically correct protection which is only slightly better than no protection at all. Pretty soon no garage sale.

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It appears that the screwor has more rights here than the screwee. If the powers-what-be think that this encourages people to shop and buy at the garage sale they are sadly mistaken. A criminal, yes criminal, here has more 'right' to be protected than the honest folks. We can not know about him but he already knows about us. We enjoy politically correct protection which is only slightly better than no protection at all. Pretty soon no garage sale.

Not if I actually steal something from you, which I have not.

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Please note that I used a lower case 'c'. I was not aware that you, as Criminal, existed.

 

Still, GPS Garage Sale will not identify the miscreant. He is protected and, thereby, encouraged to continue taking advantage of the unknowing. I won't chance shopping there.

 

73,

 

BB

 

Caviat Raptor!

It is OK.

Criminal always (or nearly) does that when he detects the word "criminal".

Just pretend you see the :tongue: at the end of such posts. It IS there, your just have to look very very closely. Closer than that.......

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I really wish people would stop slamming e-bay. It is a great place, it's not a hassle, all you have to do is read and pay attention. My wife makes her living on e-bay selling hand painted figrues, I also sell a fair amount of product - including new GPS's - I gave up after selling a few, because I couldn't make money doing it. I purchase tons of stuff there, and have never had a problem. My wife and I BOTH have a feedback of 100% positive. READ THE FEEDBACK AND THE AUCTION BEFORE BIDDING. yes there are lots of Idiots out there, don't buy from them, or sell too them. simple as that.

If you have a bidder you are leary of, read their feedback, and don't hesitate to cancel their bid.

 

The worst I have ever had happen was someone who paid me twice, incorrect amount both times, (over both times) and posted + feedback before I had even shipped the item to them. I believe they were severely intoxicated at the time!

 

My rant endeth here.

 

Bruce

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Please note that I used a lower case 'c'. I was not aware that you, as Criminal, existed.

 

Still, GPS Garage Sale will not identify the miscreant. He is protected and, thereby, encouraged to continue taking advantage of the unknowing. I won't chance shopping there.

 

73,

 

BB

 

Caviat Raptor!

So sorry! I always think everyone knows when I'm joking, that is not always the case, as shown here. I apoligize (in case you were taking me seriously) I meant no ill will.

 

Chris "Criminal"

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I've had good luck with eBay and Paypal on two occassions. Usually the threat of closing a persons account is sufficient, but they do offer additional guidance for legal action.

The only time I got ripped off on eBay, I paid through PayPal. I waited the full 30 days for the item to ship, and then when it didn't ship, PayPal wouldn't do anything about it because the payment was over 30 days old. PayPal will not help in situations like this if the account payment is over the 30 day period, so you have to make any complaints within a couple of weeks, and on some items, that is often how long the shipping takes. So, you don't know you've been screwed until it is too late to do anything about it.

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I really wish people would stop slamming e-bay.  It is a great place, it's not a hassle, all you have to do is read and pay attention.  My wife makes her living on e-bay selling hand painted figrues, I also sell a fair amount of product - including new GPS's - I gave up after selling a few, because I couldn't make money doing it.  I purchase tons of stuff there, and have never had a problem.  My wife and I BOTH have a feedback of 100% positive.  READ THE FEEDBACK AND THE AUCTION BEFORE BIDDING. yes there are lots of Idiots out there, don't buy from them, or sell too them. simple as that.

If you have a bidder you are leary of, read their feedback, and don't hesitate to cancel their bid. 

 

The worst I have ever had happen was someone who paid me twice, incorrect amount both times, (over both times) and posted + feedback before I had even shipped the item to them.  I believe they were severely intoxicated at the time!

 

My rant endeth here.

 

Bruce

eBay's postive feedback is no guarantee. The person that ripped me off had a 100% feedback rating, with over 150 sales. Only after I got ripped off did she start getting other negative feedbacks. And eBay themselves are no help when you get screwed either. I filed a fraud complaint with them, and their "help" was to contact the seller and ask for a solution. After 14 days with no reply from the seller, eBay said that was all they could do, and dropped the case. The seller still has an account, and is still selling items. See my previous post about the PayPal lack of help. No more eBay purchases for me.

 

Edited to add that the seller in question had the eBay "Purchase Protection" icon in their account, also.

Edited by Sparky-Watts
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I will get in on this thread. I am a newbie her on these forums but I have sold and bought close to 200 items on eBay and have used PayPal for many of them. I have only had one problem with something i have bought and that was because I was not here when USPS delivered the battery and I think it was lifted from my Mail box.

 

My items that I have bought and sold have been as little as $3 and up to $1100 which was my Studio Camera (I am a Photographer). I also bought a $2000 camera over eBAy.

 

You just have to be careful what you buy and from whom you buy it from. If it sounds too good to be true don't buy it. Also look at the Feedback when buying. See what others have said about him.

 

When looking at the feedback check that what you are interested in is similar to what he has sold before. Scammers will sometimes Highjack an account to list their items. If a "seller" has a history of selling shirts and shoes and dolls don't buy a $1000 computer from him when the normal price of said computer is regularly $2000. As George Bush Sr would say. "It just isn't prudent"

 

When selling an item, describe it accurately and truthfully. If there are scratches and marks and chip on the item show those in photos in the listing. Don't retouch the marks out. Point them out so that the buyer knows what he is buying. You wont' regret it. I put several images of the item form different views in my listings. It costs just 15 cents to have eBAy host your image and you can put up 5 (one is free). Use them.

 

Lonesomedave

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I've replied earlier in the post, thought I'd do it again. I "bought" the same gps of the same guy, "cacountryman". We spoke on the phone several times and he gave me his physical address and signed my certified mail delivery of a money order. I never got my money back. I've filed forms with the USPS and the FBI. I've received letters from the WV State Attorney General saying they will try to mediate; no luck. Letters from USPS trying to mediate; no luck. Letter from the Cali State Attorney General saying sorry about an individuals luck, but if several complaints were lodged, they could look into it. Still no luck. This has been going on for almost one year; April will make it 12 months. I guess you can't trust everybody.

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I've replied earlier in the post, thought I'd do it again. I "bought" the same gps of the same guy, "cacountryman". We spoke on the phone several times and he gave me his physical address and signed my certified mail delivery of a money order. I never got my money back. I've filed forms with the USPS and the FBI. I've received letters from the WV State Attorney General saying they will try to mediate; no luck. Letters from USPS trying to mediate; no luck. Letter from the Cali State Attorney General saying sorry about an individuals luck, but if several complaints were lodged, they could look into it. Still no luck. This has been going on for almost one year; April will make it 12 months. I guess you can't trust everybody.

I too just had a lady or so called lady take me for a ride on a Yellow Etrex here back in January. The Postmaster said that if a pattern occours on the person in question that they will not go after them. They seem to want 2 or 3 complaints before they try to investigate or take them to court. However they will place the person at question on a list and if they do this again, they are going to get more than a dirty letter from the Postmaster.

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It's disheartening to see that you have to establish a pattern of crime before the problem is 'bad enough' to warrante recognition.

 

It seems to make some people delight in causing problems. Yet if I took the time to bust them upside the head with a baseball bat to express my feelings on the matter you can bet they would cart me off and my complaints of "gee don't you need a pattern" would fall on deaf ears.

 

Of course the system exists and there is no 'rule' that says you have to have a pattern. The pattern is a 'guideline' they use. That's when I like to put on my spurs and give the system a couple of kickcs in the flank to get their attention. This I know how to do. It would help if I was rich and had everyone in my back pocket but silver spoons are hard to come by.

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I have been in GEO CACHING for about 6 months. I am been using a 5 year old Magellan 315 G.P.S. unit. It works ok, but it seems a bit slow at updating and keeping up on current location when I am in a poor coverage area. I have a hard time getting close to the cache and finding it. I read where other people are finding the cache with no problem. So this leads me to believe that it may be time to upgrade the G.P.S. . I have been considering the Garmin eTrex Vista. Does anyone have any recommendations? Any thought on what units may have the best reception capabilities? Or are they all the same?

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I have been in GEO CACHING for about 6 months. I am been using a 5 year old Magellan 315 G.P.S. unit. It works ok, but it seems a bit slow at updating and keeping up on current location when I am in a poor coverage area. I have a hard time getting close to the cache and finding it. I read where other people are finding the cache with no problem. So this leads me to believe that it may be time to upgrade the G.P.S. . I have been considering the Garmin eTrex Vista. Does anyone have any recommendations? Any thought on what units may have the best reception capabilities? Or are they all the same?

I think you replied to this article when you should of made a new post. I just upgraded from a Garmin Legend to a Vista. I made the Vista my secondary or should I say backup GPS, incase something happened to my main GPS I carry at that time ( I own alot of GPS's so I switch off my main GPS). I have no prefrence to Magellan or GArmin. If I were getting my Main handheld GPS, it would be a larger unit that is easy to hold ,big screen, And lots of memory. Dont ge me wrong the Vista is OK but not my first choice, I think my Garmin GPS V picks up signal alot better than my Vista in the woods. I have a Magellan Platinum that really does good on reception also. The Garmin 76S is A pretty decent unit,but its just not as rugged as it needs to be for geo caching. Go with a larger unit no matter what you pick, bigger unit means bigger buit in antenna and better reception in the woods.

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