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Bogus Coin Discovering Logs


The Klever Boys

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Hi all.

 

I'm just wondering if anyone else has suffered from a cacher in Germany (Geohirse) making bogus coin discovery logs on their coins today?

I have had "discovered" logs on a number of my coins today - which have been duly deleted - despite these coins being here with me and never released. All of the coins concerned have a "PC" tracking prefix, so clearly this person is taking random guesses on "PC" tracking numbers and when successful, logging them as discovered. The logs just have a smiley face, with no attempt to state where or when the coin was seen.

I can see a large number of discovery logs on other coins according to his/her inventory today (some which have been missing for years according to logs).

Given that us, as coin owners, are liable to have our coins locked for breaking the rules on allowing bogus logging, is there any action that can be taken (by Groundspeak) with this person who is blatently doing the same thing (other than just advising the coin owner delete the logs).

 

Thanks,

Russ

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Yup, I got a log for a discovery from Geohirse today for a coin that's been missing (technically in the hands of a cacher no longer caching) in Alaska for over 1.5 years. Another virtual log came from another German cacher (DieMuffel) who claimed to have seen another one of my coins at "WWFM IX" which was odd since that coin is starring me in the face as I type. Normally I just delete these virtual logs but it would be nice if Groundspeak took an interest, though I'm not demanding that they do. There does seem to be a rash of virtual discoverers in Germany of late.

 

Thanks, Russ, for starting this topic as I was thinking about doing it too.

Edited by Droo
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Thanks Droo - yep, having quite a number of coins I do get mistaken hits on them, which is understandable given similarity of some of some of the digits, but to get three discoveries in quick succession by the same person rang alarm bells...

Just checking the other coins they have "discovered" reveals others have been hit too :mad:

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Geohirse is also activating coins they find codes for where the coin is not already activated!!!!

 

I can see 4 already activated today. Random geocoins - likely just ones they came across whilst looking for active ones to log.

 

URGENT ACTION IS NEEDED BY Groundspeak to stop this person activating other peoples coins please

 

I have reported this to Eartha

Edited by keewee
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Looks like he struck again.... boy, talk about a busy bee. Sorry, Keewee, to hear he's also getting to your unactivated ones. I wonder what thrill he gets for this level of hacking?

 

Nah, not getting to mine - that I know of. But they will be various peoples unactivated geocoins. :( :( :(

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Codes for coins activated today are

 

I'm sure if Groundspeak look at these items they will find that the Tracking IDs are probably not miles apart. :(

When I checked his profile earlier today I believe his stats were at 300-400, can't remember exactly, trackables moved or discovered and none owned. It's now past 1200 and 6 owned. Looks like he got himself a random number generator that can spit out alphanumerics.

 

The PITA now is to go through all the unactivated coins in my database and check if they are still unactivated. Nah, hardly worth the effort but what a nasty breach. Bad enough to have coins stolen from caches but to have them stolen before they can be activated is especially vexing.

Edited by Sandy
removed codes
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Codes for coins activated today are

 

I'm sure if Groundspeak look at these items they will find that the Tracking IDs are probably not miles apart. :(

When I checked his profile earlier today I believe his stats were at 300-400, can't remember exactly, trackables moved or discovered and none owned. It's now past 1200 and 6 owned. Looks like he got himself a random number generator that can spit out alphanumerics.

 

Not good - 1236 found (dropped by 2 in the last 10 mins) and 6 owned. This guy needs to be stopped.

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I just got a response from Geohirse to my email explaining my deletions. His tone was friendly and ignorant to the provisions against virtual logs. From that I am now of the opinion he is not activating other people's coins and only thought that discovering tracking numbers at random was no big deal. Keeping fingers crossed.

Edited by Droo
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UPDATE.....

 

Got another email from Geohirse and he seems solemnly shocked to find out that virtual logging is a form of lying. Apparently everyone in his city exchanges tracking numbers so it's the thing to do. He said he's been over the guidelines and never heard that such a thing was not allowed. However when he asked me for a link to the guidelines where it states the policy against virtual logging I couldn't find anything either. Not in the Knowledge Book, FAQ or How to log a Geocoin, nowhere. No wonder nobody knows about it.

 

If someone can point me in the right direction I will forward it to him and perhaps he can re-educate his city of cachers so we don't have to go through this again. Thanks in advance.

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UPDATE.....

 

Got another email from Geohirse and he seems solemnly shocked to find out that virtual logging is a form of lying. Apparently everyone in his city exchanges tracking numbers so it's the thing to do. He said he's been over the guidelines and never heard that such a thing was not allowed. However when he asked me for a link to the guidelines where it states the policy against virtual logging I couldn't find anything either. Not in the Knowledge Book, FAQ or How to log a Geocoin, nowhere. No wonder nobody knows about it.

 

If someone can point me in the right direction I will forward it to him and perhaps he can re-educate his city of cachers so we don't have to go through this again. Thanks in advance.

 

Under Geocaching 101:

 

Note that you should not show Tracking Codes to others or upload any photos displaying a Tracking Code. This code is only meant to be seen by those who have actually had the Trackable in their hands.

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I don't believe what Geohirse is telling you. I had a quick look at a couple of the coins he has discovered and he is the only one to have discovered those coins in years! Therefore I doubt very much that he is telling the truth.

Be that as it may.... I could not find reference to virtual logging anywhere in the guidelines on logging or moving geocoins. The only thing that came even close was to explain discoveries as "virtual logs". The guidelines have been re-written recently and clearly this rule has been omitted with the only reference to it here in the forums. I know it used to be there as I've linked to it before but it ain't there anymore..... that I can tell.

 

The point is not that this guy is playing the numbers game but that it is allowed under the current guidelines while the mods, and the rest of us, keep acting like the rule is still there. If there is no rule there is no rule broken. I mean, the only thing Groundspeak can say about selling coins found in caches is that it is frowned on. So if GS doesn't give a darn about the sale of stolen coins what are they going to care about the "creative" use of tracking numbers for the sake of padding stats.

 

Sorry for taking the contrarian view on this and I will continue to delete these types of logs but I won't demonize someone who is playing within the guidelines.

 

Edit to add.... Max & 99, thank you for pointing that out but it really refers to people posting tracking numbers in public or publishing photos showing same.... again, IMO.

Edited by Droo
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Geohirse hit one of my coins yesterday. It got me all excited since the coin has been missing for over 4 years. Then I noticed that it was just a discovery and I figured out what was going on.

 

On a positive note, another coin that has been missing for nearly as long was grabbed yesterday with a note explaining how they found it and that they would get it moving again. :D It went missing at Gatwick and will probably make a reappearance somewhere in the East Midlands.

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Unfortunately it's clear that every time we need more rules to anticipate all possible errors. Each day, there are more and more players, so the proportion will grow.

 

I don't think it's difficult to implement a procedure to ensure that the owner of the coin is the only one who can activate it.

 

BTW, I don't like the generic activation code, ie the same activation code for all the coins minted.

 

So far any of my coins lost their identity, and I want to stay that way.

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I only have one coin in Europe, so it doesn't take long for me to figure out if someone over there is doing V-logs on mine. As soon as I see them, I delete them, with no note. They know what they're doing.

 

The very worst offenders, including Geohirse always seem to be in Germany.

 

edit to add--He still has 1201 trackables listed as discovered/found. I looked at some of them, and they were all bogus. It so happens that I know the owners, and I also know they have the items at home. SOme of the others have been missing for years.

Edited by Shop99er
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I was shocked to read Droo's post that said that "no virtual logs" wasn't in the handbook. I went and read through it myself and I didn't find anything directly saying that one couldn't virtually log. This page says that a coin owner shouldn't post their coin online, but nothing directly about guessing codes! Most of the private websites I went to said that "Groundspeak frowns upon virtual logging", but I don't know where it says that rules wise. Almost all of the rules I saw on this were directed towards the coin owners. Any of the moderators have any suggestions or comments?

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UPDATE.....

 

Got another email from Geohirse and he seems solemnly shocked to find out that virtual logging is a form of lying. Apparently everyone in his city exchanges tracking numbers so it's the thing to do. He said he's been over the guidelines and never heard that such a thing was not allowed. However when he asked me for a link to the guidelines where it states the policy against virtual logging I couldn't find anything either. Not in the Knowledge Book, FAQ or How to log a Geocoin, nowhere. No wonder nobody knows about it.

 

If someone can point me in the right direction I will forward it to him and perhaps he can re-educate his city of cachers so we don't have to go through this again. Thanks in advance.

 

Closest we see is in the FAQ

"How do Geocoins work?

Because each Geocoin is assigned a unique tracking number, its progress can be tracked online through logs posted by the finders. There are different types of logs that can be made on a Geocoin's personal home page, including picking up or dropping off the coin, and "discovering" the coin. When you log, you'll have the opportunity to share your thoughts on the Geocoin page and to upload any photos associated with it. In addition, by logging a Geocoin your online collection will reflect that you found that particular coin.

 

That should be amplified a bit to found/saw. It would be nice to have a line that explains "Discovered" as well as logging coins that you have never seen at all in the FAQ's.

 

Good that a dialog is open with him or her....

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I don't think it's difficult to implement a procedure to ensure that the owner of the coin is the only one who can activate it.

 

I don't see how this can possibly be implemented. How can Groundspeak know who the coin owner is? All they record is the vendor who bought the code and the coin series it is applied to.

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I don't think it's difficult to implement a procedure to ensure that the owner of the coin is the only one who can activate it.

 

I don't see how this can possibly be implemented. How can Groundspeak know who the coin owner is? All they record is the vendor who bought the code and the coin series it is applied to.

Something like the philosophy of digital or electronic signature. A public key and a private key.

 

In our case, the public key can be the tracking number, which anyone can see in the coin, while the private key can only have it the owner, and may serve to prove ownership, and to activate the geocoin, ...as the activation code.

Edited by manu luq
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Edit to add.... Max & 99, thank you for pointing that out but it really refers to people posting tracking numbers in public or publishing photos showing same.... again, IMO.

 

I'm going to disagree with you on that. I think the guideline is referring to sharing tracking numbers, NOT just posting them in public. Passing around tracking numbers to each other without actually having the trackable in hand violates the guidelines.

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I don't think it's difficult to implement a procedure to ensure that the owner of the coin is the only one who can activate it.

 

I don't see how this can possibly be implemented. How can Groundspeak know who the coin owner is? All they record is the vendor who bought the code and the coin series it is applied to.

Something like the philosophy of digital or electronic signature. A public key and a private key.

 

In our case, the public key can be the tracking number, which anyone can see in the coin, while the private key can only have it the owner, and may serve to prove ownership, and to activate the geocoin, ...as the activation code.

For clarifying the idea: The difference is that the activation code is delivered only once, when you purchase the track/coin, instead through geocaching. This can be a way to ensure that nobody can retrieve the code, ie retrieve codes will not be available.

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<rant>

What a shameful situation this is!!

 

If they (GS) are now suggesting Virtual Logging isn't that big a deal - heck, lets all get into it!

 

Surely they realise allowing this type of activity is what ruins the game and that if they don't stamp it out then it is just going to get rampant!??

 

I would have thought with the competition now out there that they'd be trying to protect what they've got - not willingly allow its destruction!

</rant>

Edited by keewee
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Edit to add.... Max & 99, thank you for pointing that out but it really refers to people posting tracking numbers in public or publishing photos showing same.... again, IMO.

 

I'm going to disagree with you on that. I think the guideline is referring to sharing tracking numbers, NOT just posting them in public. Passing around tracking numbers to each other without actually having the trackable in hand violates the guidelines.

That's not the point I am arguing. You are correct in your assertion that one should not log a tracking number they have obtained by any other means other than actually seeing the traveler in person. But I'll be dipped in ewe's urine before I confront a virtual logger of this guy's ilk with that "rule" when he's randomly generating tracking numbers to pad his stats. If tracking numbers are no longer going to be locked and the coin owner is not the one penalized then this is a no harm no foul type of offense.... right up there with trading fairly for swag out of a cache.

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I think

 

Do not virtually log trackables items - Do not log one unless you have seen the item In Real Life. Groundspeak will (insert suitably medieval torture practice here) if you make any virtual logs

 

needs to be spelled out, in bold black and white, somewhere in the Help Center and also on the How to use a Geocoin page.

 

MrsB :)

Edited by The Blorenges
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Got a response today from Sara at Groundspeak regarding guidelines on virtual discoveries..

 

"You are correct, we do not have strict guidelines against virtual discoveries, however if the owner knows the log is bogus they are more than welcome to remove it.

 

Please also keep in mind that some people do not understand that they are doing something wrong. Sometimes a quick friendly note about how to geocache is all that is needed."

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I'm sure there use to be something written somewhere about it - or maybe it was just the discussions in the forums.

 

If there isn't a guideline, they should be writing one with urgency otherwise the game is going to become too hard and too pointless with regards to trackables... And that would be a very sizable income they'd be missing out on without the money from the tracking codes. I wonder if they've actually thought this through?

 

It is another thing that burdens those playing by the rules - I.M.O. we've paid Groundspeak for those tracking codes via purchasing a geocoin, therefore they should be darn well doing something about it to protect our interests!!! Or maybe we all need to badger the coin stores to get onto Groundspeak over this as the coins store will also loose out when people give up on the trackables aspect.

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Geohirse has also virtual logged one of my coins and not one with a PC prefix. He swore he saw it online which is funny because the coin is here in my collection, with 0 miles it hasn't even been to an event yet. I asked him for the details of where he saw it and he deleted his own log.

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Got a response today from Sara at Groundspeak regarding guidelines on virtual discoveries..

 

"Please also keep in mind that some people do not understand that they are doing something wrong. Sometimes a quick friendly note about how to geocache is all that is needed."

 

 

... which all sounds very hunky dory... until you contact the person and politely explain that what they are doing is wrong. Then they respond along the lines of, "That is the way you say it should be done. Hmmm. I have not seen this written on the website anywhere. Many of the cachers I know have logged from pictures they have found. Please could you let me know where I can find these rules or guidelines against my logging?"

 

MrsB <_<

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Got a response today from Sara at Groundspeak regarding guidelines on virtual discoveries..

 

"You are correct, we do not have strict guidelines against virtual discoveries, however if the owner knows the log is bogus they are more than welcome to remove it.

 

Please also keep in mind that some people do not understand that they are doing something wrong. Sometimes a quick friendly note about how to geocache is all that is needed."

 

If there are no guidelines then how do the loggers know or find out that what they are doing is wrong? I don't like the practice and luckily as far as I can tell haven't had a virtual log on one of mine but realistically very few cachers come to this forum. How can we tell them they are wrong when it doesn't appear anywhere? Is the concept passes along by word of mouth or a grandfather clause that everyone knows about? LOL

 

If there are no guidelines then why can trackables get locked when they are logged virtually?

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Got a response today from Sara at Groundspeak regarding guidelines on virtual discoveries..

 

"You are correct, we do not have strict guidelines against virtual discoveries, however if the owner knows the log is bogus they are more than welcome to remove it.

 

Please also keep in mind that some people do not understand that they are doing something wrong. Sometimes a quick friendly note about how to geocache is all that is needed."

 

If there are no guidelines then how do the loggers know or find out that what they are doing is wrong? I don't like the practice and luckily as far as I can tell haven't had a virtual log on one of mine but realistically very few cachers come to this forum. How can we tell them they are wrong when it doesn't appear anywhere? Is the concept passes along by word of mouth or a grandfather clause that everyone knows about? LOL

 

If there are no guidelines then why can trackables get locked when they are logged virtually?

 

Now that is a very good question!!!

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