Placement rules

[+jarimiku]

Hi,

 

In Fundamental Placement Guide there is rule in chapter 7.

 

"Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements."

 

So if we have cache which is mystery/puzzle cache. In other words the physical location doesn't have coordinates and start position

is more than 0.1 mile away, but end point (without coordinates) is closer than 0.1 mile from another cache listing.

 

In other words, can mystery/puzzle cache (without coordinates) be closer than 0.1 mile from another cache(with coordinates)?

 

jarimiku

[jholly]

no

[+BigChiefS4]

Puzzles have two sets of coordinates. The posted coordinates, at which there is no physical cache, can be anywhere, even on top of another cache. The actual coordinates of the physical cache, which are identified by an additional waypoint on the cache page, must be at least 0.1 miles away from another physical cache.

Edited May 24, 2012 by BigChiefS4

[+The A-Team]

If the final container is within 0.1 miles of another cache or physical stage of a multi, that isn't allowed.

[+Max and 99]

Puzzles have two sets of coordinates. The posted coordinates, at which there is no physical cache, can be anywhere, even on top of another cache.

 

Not where I live. Fake, posted coords must be min. 1/10 mile from any other cache coordinates. Several of us were told this, and no we did not misunderstand!

[+jarimiku]

So as far as I have understood it is not very clear :-)

I have actual case here.

 

There is cache which I have placed and reviewer is not publishing it because "it is too close of another cache"

My cache is standard cache.

 

The other cache where he is referring is classified "Unknown cache", but as far as I understand it mystery cache since description is like this...

 

"Given koordinates leads you to a gate of a company. To find the cache you need to find another company opersating in same business nearby (1km). The cache is situated 815 meters and 537 meters away from gates of those companies."

 

So the physical cache is not marked with coordinates, it can be only found by using triangle measuring.

 

So if there is no way to be sure where physical cache is before you find it.

 

So the question is: Should you find all mystery caches in area before you can be sure where you place your own cache

 

jarimiku

[+The A-Team]

Puzzles have two sets of coordinates. The posted coordinates, at which there is no physical cache, can be anywhere, even on top of another cache.

 

Not where I live. Fake, posted coords must be min. 1/10 mile from any other cache coordinates. Several of us were told this, and no we did not misunderstand!

I don't think the reviewers around here have such a requirement, but it makes perfect sense. At one time here, there was one puzzle cache icon at EXACTLY the same coordinates as another. Consequently, one of them was effectively hidden from view. Most people didn't even realize it was there. Thankfully, one of them was archived about a year ago, so there's only one cache on the map at those coordinates now.

[+BigChiefS4]

Yep, pretty much. Or else you will run into that situation quite often. It's not as bad outside of metro areas, but where I live, it's harder.

[+The A-Team]

So the question is: Should you find all mystery caches in area before you can be sure where you place your own cache

Yes, or you can ask a reviewer ahead of time whether your coordinates are too close to another hidden cache. For the 0.1 mile guideline, it's the final physical container that matters, not the posted/bogus coordinates. For all but some very old caches, the reviewers know where those hidden final containers are located.

[+BigChiefS4]

Puzzles have two sets of coordinates. The posted coordinates, at which there is no physical cache, can be anywhere, even on top of another cache.

 

Not where I live. Fake, posted coords must be min. 1/10 mile from any other cache coordinates. Several of us were told this, and no we did not misunderstand!

 

If there is not a physical cache at the posted coordinates for a puzzle, then there is NO requirement to have it be 1/10th of a mile from other caches. Period. Your reviewer is wrong and I would appeal to GS.

[+fuzziebear3]

So as far as I have understood it is not very clear :-)

I have actual case here.

 

There is cache which I have placed and reviewer is not publishing it because "it is too close of another cache"

My cache is standard cache.

 

The other cache where he is referring is classified "Unknown cache", but as far as I understand it mystery cache since description is like this...

 

"Given koordinates leads you to a gate of a company. To find the cache you need to find another company opersating in same business nearby (1km). The cache is situated 815 meters and 537 meters away from gates of those companies."

 

So the physical cache is not marked with coordinates, it can be only found by using triangle measuring.

 

So if there is no way to be sure where physical cache is before you find it.

 

So the question is: Should you find all mystery caches in area before you can be sure where you place your own cache

 

jarimiku

 

If possible, find the stages of the mystery caches in the area. But sometimes that is not possible.

The reviewer has tools and knows the actual location of those other mystery elements. He/she will check your proposed coordinates, and let you know if you are too close to some physical part of another cache.

[+jarimiku]

But I thought we should follow Guidelines and this comes to the fact, that what was the meaning in Guidelines.

 

And it really makes no sence you should be able to know where all mystery caches are before you place one.

 

So this shouldn't be thing reviewer can decide, they should follow the Guidelines.

 

Anyway, if really is the case that he is correct, it makes a big problem....

You can't place a cache in be 100% sure it follows guidelines.

[+BigChiefS4]

And it really makes no sence you should be able to know where all mystery caches are before you place one.

 

 

If that was the case, then there would be no need to have puzzle or mystery caches because everyone would know where they are.

[+The A-Team]

But I thought we should follow Guidelines and this comes to the fact, that what was the meaning in Guidelines.

From the guidelines:

Physical elements of different geocaches should be at least 0.10 miles (528 ft or 161 m) apart.

It doesn't matter if you know where those physical elements are located or not, the guideline still applies.

 

And it really makes no sence you should be able to know where all mystery caches are before you place one.

You don't have to. Contact a reviewer to check your coordinates. They can tell you if your location is acceptable or not.

[+jarimiku]

A-Team...

 

In guidelines:

 

"Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements."

 

?

[+jarimiku]

"Within single" refers only to multi-cache?

[+The A-Team]

A-Team...

 

In guidelines:

 

"Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements."

 

?

That just means that if you're placing a multi, or a puzzle with multiple elements, the elements of that single cache don't need to be 0.1 miles away from each other. You could have them 1 foot apart if you wanted. All physical parts of the cache still have to be 0.1 miles away from the physical elements of other caches.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Puzzles have two sets of coordinates. The posted coordinates, at which there is no physical cache, can be anywhere, even on top of another cache. The actual coordinates of the physical cache, which are identified by an additional waypoint on the cache page, must be at least 0.1 miles away from another physical cache.

 

Just as a point of clarification a puzzle/mystery/unknown can have just one set of coordinates. For example, a puzzle might have to be solved to reveal the numbers necessary to open a combination lock on a container placed at the published coordinates. A puzzle/mystery/unknown could also have more than two sets of coordinates. More than two sets of coordinates does not necessarily make it a multi-cache. For example, a mystery cache might have published coordinates that are meaningless, but a complex puzzle might have to be solved to identify a set of coordinates which has a physical container (or information) required to complete a second puzzle which would need to be solved in order to obtain a subsequent set of coordinates.

 

Typically the final location for a puzzle/mystery/unknown cache will be within 2 miles of the published coordinates but that was not always the case (I know of one where the published coordinates were about 10 miles from the final location) and we have not always been required to provide that coordinates of final location as an additional waypoint.

[+jarimiku]

We will have to break this in to pieces...

 

How this kind of cache should be classified:

 

"Given koordinates leads you to a gate of a company. To find the cache you need to find another company opersating in same business nearby (1km). The cache is situated 815 meters and 537 meters away from gates of those companies."

 

So puclicly only the first point coordinates are known "gate of a company" then you would need to do triangle measuring and you have two possible points.

 

Mystery, Puzzle, what?

[+The A-Team]

Mystery, Puzzle, what?

Mystery = Puzzle = Unknown. They're 3 names for the same cache type. Whatever you want to call it, the cache you describe (GC1A20M) is correctly listed as a mystery/puzzle/unknown.

The only physical element of this cache is the final container. For the purposes of proximity calculation, only the final coordinates matter.

[AZcachemeister]

Puzzles have two sets of coordinates. The posted coordinates, at which there is no physical cache, can be anywhere, even on top of another cache.

 

Not where I live. Fake, posted coords must be min. 1/10 mile from any other cache coordinates. Several of us were told this, and no we did not misunderstand!

 

If there is not a physical cache at the posted coordinates for a puzzle, then there is NO requirement to have it be 1/10th of a mile from other caches. Period. Your reviewer is wrong and I would appeal to GS.

 

Agreed.

It would probably be preferable for the bogus co-ordinates of a mystery to be 'some distance' from the co-ordinates of a physical cache.

As an example I have a physical cache on my front porch, and the same co-ordinates are listed for a puzzle I made that is 'some distance' away.

 

After all bogus co-ordinates are...well...BOGUS!

[+tozainamboku]

 

So if there is no way to be sure where physical cache is before you find it.

 

So the question is: Should you find all mystery caches in area before you can be sure where you place your own cache

 

jarimiku

 

Anyway, if really is the case that he is correct, it makes a big problem....

You can't place a cache in be 100% sure it follows guidelines.

 

The saturation guideline as it applies to existing mystery and stages of multi-caches is one of the most difficult guidelines to explain to a newbie trying to place cache and being told it is too close to an existing caches whose coordinates are unknown.

 

The saturation guidelines tries to keep a minimum distance between physical elements (generally the cache container or something that has coordinate for the next stage of a multi). The idea is to prevent someone from finding one cache when they are looking for another. The guideline applies to all physical elements not just the final cache location. However within a given multi-cache the physical element can be as close to each other as the hider wants. It is assumed that the hider will keep enough distance between stages unless he really wants people to sometimes find the wrong cache (e.g. a decoy). When submitting a mystery or multi-cache the coordinates for the phsyical stages must be provided, but these are only visible to the cache owner and the reviewer.

 

Now, it's clear that a newbie (or even just someone who doesn't like doing puzzles) won't know the coordinates of all the physical elements of mystery and multi-caches in the area. They basically need to accept that when placing a cache it may be rejected. If you're putting out a caches that's not easy to move, you can always ask the reviewer beforehand if the approximate coordinates are available.

 

Unless you live in an area where puzzles are very popular, the chances are you won't run into this issue very often. If you do you can just go back and move your cache a little bit so it can be published. The reviewer may provide you with some help (such at telling you a direction to move to get away from nearby puzzle caches.

[+jellis]

Just face it. If you want to place a cache contact your reviewer and see if it is too close to another cache or stage of a multi/puzzle. That or go solve them and you will know. Best to just ask the reviewer. They won't tell you where the cache or stage is but will tell you whether you can or cannot put one there.

[cezanne]

Typically the final location for a puzzle/mystery/unknown cache will be within 2 miles of the published coordinates but that was not always the case (I know of one where the published coordinates were about 10 miles from the final location)

 

For mystery caches with multiple stages that are not near to each other does not make sense. I do have e.g. a mystery cache where the header coordinates show to a location which plays the starting role in the cache, the next stage is several kilometers away one might cover with car or bicycle or public transportation and then a walk of a few km starts.

It would be silly to provide coordinates for the header which are near to the final.

 

Take a cache like this one

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=05632c19-bec3-4f96-b708-ef59c47db982

(a 133km long distance hiking cache along a famous pilgrimage and long distance hiking route).

There is also a similar cache leading from Munich to Venice. If there were an initial puzzle, it would mean

that the header coordinates should point to Mariazell resp. Venice and not to the place where the cache

needs to be started - which is quite annoying.

 

Trackables cannot be the reason for the 2 miles rule because in the case of long multi caches the same issue occurs.

Helping people to identify possible candidates for a distance conflict cannot be the reason for the rule either as

the same issue occurs for multi caches.

 

It rather seems to me that the people who wrote this part of the guideline are not used to mystery caches with strong multi and hiking elements. For caches with multiple stages it is sometimes one of the attractions that one does not know where the journey will lead to.

If ? are the catch all cache type, one needs to take into account that there is a diversity of ?-caches.

 

Cezanne

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Typically the final location for a puzzle/mystery/unknown cache will be within 2 miles of the published coordinates but that was not always the case (I know of one where the published coordinates were about 10 miles from the final location)

 

For mystery caches with multiple stages that are not near to each other does not make sense. I do have e.g. a mystery cache where the header coordinates show to a location which plays the starting role in the cache, the next stage is several kilometers away one might cover with car or bicycle or public transportation and then a walk of a few km starts.

It would be silly to provide coordinates for the header which are near to the final.

 

For the cache I mentioned, the published coordinates were very much thematically related with the puzzle and the final location, even though they were not physically nearby. I suspect that the CO figured that if the published coordinates were close to the final location it would be fairly easy to guess the general area where the final was located once you saw the theme of the puzzle.

 

If you want to see another multi-stage puzzle which covers at least 10 miles from start to finish and can be done using public transportation, check out Five Star New York.

[cezanne]

If you want to see another multi-stage puzzle which covers at least 10 miles from start to finish and can be done using public transportation, check out Five Star New York.

 

Actually, I know a number of them, but like many other examples and also my own example the cache is not a recent one. Back then one could use header coordinates much farther away if one could provide a convining reason to the reviewer. One such reason could have been that otherwise the puzzle would be too easy, another one that the distance of the hike is considerably longer than 2 miles.

 

What I tried to comment on is that the current formulation of the guideline regarding the 2 miles distance to the cache (note that the part "unless good reasons are provided" which has been there for many years) does not make sense for certain types of mystery caches, especially those that have many stages that are located far apart.

 

In the Five Star New York it is not that important which stage is used for the header coordinates as the stages do not depend on each other. In a linear stage order I would be very annoyed, however, if the header coordinates are not near to the start, but 100km and more away. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

Cezanne

[Keystone]

We will have to break this in to pieces...

 

How this kind of cache should be classified:

 

"Given koordinates leads you to a gate of a company. To find the cache you need to find another company opersating in same business nearby (1km). The cache is situated 815 meters and 537 meters away from gates of those companies."

 

So puclicly only the first point coordinates are known "gate of a company" then you would need to do triangle measuring and you have two possible points.

 

Mystery, Puzzle, what?

This design could be classified as a puzzle cache because the posted coordinates only give a clue about what to look for to find the other similar business. The other alternative would be an offset Multi-cache, since the location is derived from one known gate location and one readily ascertained gate location. On balance, mystery/unknown/puzzle is the better choice, in my opinion.

 

Neither of the business gate locations "count" for the cache saturation test. The cache owner has not placed a physical object in the environment at those spots. Only the actual cache location, 815 meters and 537 meters away from the gates, would count for the cache saturation test. Virtual locations, including the posted "bogus" coords for pure puzzle caches, never count when determining cache saturation.

[cezanne]

This design could be classified as a puzzle cache because the posted coordinates only give a clue about what to look for to find the other similar business. The other alternative would be an offset Multi-cache, since the location is derived from one known gate location and one readily ascertained gate location. On balance, mystery/unknown/puzzle is the better choice, in my opinion.

 

So what is your suggestion for a similar setup, but with 2 objects that are farther apart than 2 miles, say 10 miles. In my opinion, the best implementation would be as a mystery cache where the header coordinates show to the first location (which needs to be visited to get a clue for the second), but then of course it is not possible to comply with the rule that the header coordinates should be within 2 miles from the cache.

 

Why was the clause "unless a good reason is provided" removed from the 2-miles rule?

 

 

Cezanne

[+Spire67]

 

Why was the clause "unless a good reason is provided" removed from the 2-miles rule?

 

 

Cezanne

Its so that trackables placed in the cache have reasonably accurate mileage applied to them. So if a trackable is in a race where the objective is to cover most miles if the coordinates of a mystery were a long way from the final cache location the mileage applied to the trackable could be significantly increased or reduced.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Spire67

[+The red-haired witch]

Why was the clause "unless a good reason is provided" removed from the 2-miles rule?

 

I think it was redundant :

- It's a guideline

- It says should (The posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location.)

 

To me, that already means that, with a good enough reason, an exception can be made. A puzzle that includes multi-cche elements might be a good reason, for example. Doing a pretty design in a field with icons might not be

[+BigChiefS4]

 

Why was the clause "unless a good reason is provided" removed from the 2-miles rule?

 

 

Cezanne

Its so that trackables placed in the cache have reasonably accurate mileage applied to them. So if a trackable is in a race where the objective is to cover most miles if the coordinates of a mystery were a long way from the final cache location the mileage applied to the trackable could be significantly increased or reduced.

 

This is an example of that: http://coord.info/GC3895

I believe this cache is locked so that trackables can't be dipped into it.

[cezanne]

 

Why was the clause "unless a good reason is provided" removed from the 2-miles rule?

 

 

Cezanne

Its so that trackables placed in the cache have reasonably accurate mileage applied to them. So if a trackable is in a race where the objective is to cover most miles if the coordinates of a mystery were a long way from the final cache location the mileage applied to the trackable could be significantly increased or reduced.

 

That cannot be the reason as first and foremost the same arises for multi caches and there is no upper bound for their length and the start and the end can be more than 300km apart (I know such caches, in case of that one is distance is about 560km

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=9e649f3d-7a10-43d8-ad2f-6db609c1a574) and second, the trackables have also be mentioned back when the clause "unless a good reason" was included. At that time the reviewer could decide whether he regarded a provided reason as good enough.

 

Cezanne

Edited May 25, 2012 by cezanne

[cezanne]

Why was the clause "unless a good reason is provided" removed from the 2-miles rule?

 

I think it was redundant :

- It's a guideline

- It says should (The posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location.)

 

To me, that already means that, with a good enough reason, an exception can be made. A puzzle that includes multi-cche elements might be a good reason, for example. Doing a pretty design in a field with icons might not be

 

Yes, I am aware of the should, but not all should in the guidelines are at the same level.

 

Moreover, now there are reviewers which are strict on the 2 miles like on the 161m for the saturation guideline, and even worse, many new cachers complain when the coordinates are at a larger distance than 2 miles while previouly everyone was aware that exceptions are possible.

In my area now some cachers even exclude the correct solution of a puzzle from further consideration if lies outside of the 2 mile radius because they think that this is forbidden.

 

 

Cezanne

[+jarimiku]

It has happened what very often happens these kind of forums....we have been drifting far way from original question :-)

 

Question was:

 

If coordinates of physical cache (container) is not publicly known (not talking about reviewers view) you still have to make sure that cache you are placing is

at least 161 meter from this not known cache.

 

This really IMHO is against geocaching ideology. There really is no way you can be sure that what I descibed is true. Especially if you are travelling lot.

And it is not very good answer to "ask it before placing from reviewer", since answer might take days and you don't even know where you are going to place

it if you are not in your "home area".

 

The biggest problem is to explain this to my son (12 -year who wants to know everything) Why our first cache (yes it is the first) was not accepted by reviewer as

we don't break any rules.

 

Anyway, we are deleting the cache and what I've heard thinking about new hobbies.... :-|

[+BigChiefS4]

It's not against geocaching ideology. As a matter of fact, it fits right in because there are many different cache types. Unless you have solved every puzzle near where you want to place your cache, you will never know if the area has a cache nearby without the reviewers help. It's part of the game. It's frustrating, yes, but it's perfectly doable. Check out my home area. I have lots of puzzles nearby that I haven't solved, yet I still manage to hide a cache.

 

If you are traveling and wanting to place a cache somewhere away from your home area, you have to ask yourself how you are going to maintain that cache when it goes missing. I say "when" because it will go missing sooner or later. Either that or the log will get wet or some other act of nature destroys it. If it's not near your home, who's going to maintain it?

 

I don't see a need to change hobbies. You simply need to reevaluate your expectations of this hobby.

[+jarimiku]

BigChief,

 

I agree most, but this shouldn't be so complicated and free from reviewers point of view. We have already learned from this thread that

there are several opinions about this.

 

This is where I disagree... 1000%

 

"Unless you have solved every puzzle near where you want to place your cache, you will never know if the area has a cache nearby without the reviewers help. It's part of the game"

 

It really shouldn't be "part of the game"

 

From this thread, I as newbie, have learned a lot...

1. There are no clear rules

2. Reviewers are free to make decicions of their own

3. Nobody really knows what is the correct way of placing cache in situation like this

 

Maybe new updated version of Placement Guide is needed.

 

Over and out :-)

 

In theory there is no difference between practise and theory, in practise there is!

[+The A-Team]

From this thread, I as newbie, have learned a lot...

I'm not sure you have, but anyway...

 

1. There are no clear rules

Yes there are, right here: Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines

 

2. Reviewers are free to make decicions of their own

They are free to make decisions based only on the guidelines (see answer to #1 above). They can't make up their own rules and their personal opinions don't come into play at all.

 

3. Nobody really knows what is the correct way of placing cache in situation like this

See the many posts above this one, and this Help Center article: Checking for Cache Saturation

 

It's unfortunate that you don't seem to view multis, puzzles, letterbox hybrids, and Wherigos (the cache types with potential hidden waypoints) as being "part of the game". A lot of people enjoy finding them and I don't see them going away. If you still want to hide your cache, the guidelines are very clear, and if you follow them your cache will be published.

 

I won't even get into the topic of "vacation caches"...

[+tozainamboku]

From this thread, I as newbie, have learned a lot...

1. There are no clear rules

There are guidelines. Quite a lot of space is spent explaining this guideline, including illustration. And while is may see strange to have worry about elememts of the cache that are unknown to you, I would still say the guideline is pretty clear on this.

 

2. Reviewers are free to make decicions of their own

The reviewer used to hav a lot more leeway than they do now. I'm one who though that given reviewers some flexibility allowed more cahes to get published and was good for the game. Howeever, many more have posted complaints that this made the guidelines unclear as allowed for inconsistencies. Rather that having to argue why reviewer descretion is a good thing, TPTB have modified the guidelines and given instruction to reviewers to follow theme more literally and not use discretion.

3. Nobody really knows what is the correct way of placing cache in situation like this

I believe you have seen several answers that range from solving all the puzzles, to asking a reviewer before placing a cache, to being willing to accept that youe cache submission, despite your best effort to "follow the rules" may not get published.

 

Maybe new updated version of Placement Guide is needed.

Perhaps. Getting caches turned down because of this guideling is perhaps the toughest issue with the current guidelines. You are not the first to have had a cache turned down even they they made a good faith effort to stay far enough away from other caches. And for some who is making such an effort, having a rule where you can't possibly know all the locations you have to avoid seems either unfair or illogical.

 

Accept this as a rule if you can understand the intent is to keep physical element from being so close as to confuse someone. The distance is an arbitrary one but it has worked well for almost 10 years.

 

The biggest problem is to explain this to my son (12 -year who wants to know everything) Why our first cache (yes it is the first) was not accepted by reviewer as

we don't break any rules.

Use this as good lesson that rules and laws don't always make sense and that even though you tried your best to comply your first cache did not, because you made a wrong assumption about what the guideline means. Had you understood the guideline does apply to unknown locations, then you would know that there is no guarantee the cache will be published. Don't place a cache you're not willing to go back to and move if this situation happens.

[+Don_J]

But I thought we should follow Guidelines and this comes to the fact, that what was the meaning in Guidelines.

 

And it really makes no sence you should be able to know where all mystery caches are before you place one.

 

So this shouldn't be thing reviewer can decide, they should follow the Guidelines.

 

Anyway, if really is the case that he is correct, it makes a big problem....

You can't place a cache in be 100% sure it follows guidelines.

 

There is a community a little ways away from me where I simply won't even try to place a cache. One cacher has hidden over 40 puzzles that I have no hope of ever solving. I don't like it but it's just how the game is played. It's always been that way and it sure isn't going to change, so I just hide my caches elsewhere.