Jump to content

Park n' Grabs


Recommended Posts

I. PLACEMENT Guidelines: Placement guidelines govern the physical location of a geocache.

"When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat

 

There are plenty of reasons to use parking lots. Someone might be on a streak of trying for a cache a day and be a super busy person--they need a quick one. Someone might be having a busy or hard time this week, and finding a cache--even a LPG--releases some tension. Someone might be trying for a cache per county, and they don't have time to go for a hike. Someone might be from out of town and have no way to go find something better. Someone could be recuperating from an illness or they might not be very mobile, and the LPGs get them out of the house.

 

 

Caching Streak: all about the numbers. "They need a quick one": Why? All about the numbers again. Need a cache in a County: All about the numbers. Out of towners: (Presumibly for the "prestige" of finding a cache in a different State) All about the numbers. I'll give you the last one about recuperating from an illness or they might not be very mobile, and it gets them out of the house. But then again, that smiley count increases by one, doesn't it? :)

 

As I've said before in the thread, I'm not seeing anything there that addresses the shear number of them.

 

EDIT: P.S. Do you have any idea what a miniscule percentage of the overall Geocaching population cares about going on a "caching streak"? A small handful of highly active premium members in any given area. Parking lot caches are all about the numbers. Always have been, always will.

Edited by Mr.Yuck
Link to comment

Getting a little more back on topic (I think)... I too have just rolled my eyes at some of the "inconsistencies" I have seen pertaining to enforcement of the Guidelines. It seems hit and miss to say the least.

New Years day we awoke to a new small power trail where the caches (film can/pill bottle type) were inserted into the end of a pipe in some 70 or so locations, driven into the ground. The cache pages, in bold type, asks cachers to "NOT pull the pipe out of the ground to retrieve the cache". Really??? The Reviewer had to have seen this on the cache page if he never saw a single hide in person.

Does the pipe in the ground bother me?? Nope. I don't take it as serious as some would. It DOES make me wonder what criteria are used when deciding if a cache meets the Guidelines. And how it managed to be applied 70 times.

Iknow... I know... it's just a game. At least that's what we are constantly being reminded. But some consistency would be nice.

 

I have nothing against P&G's. Or micros in the woods. Or magnetic nanos. Or dumpster hides. If it wasn't for these "power trails" we would have a LOT fewer caches to hunt in our rural area.

 

I have yet to hide a cache. I have found several types, including the ones listed above. I take it all with a grain of salt. I am not ALL about the numbers, but I like to see my numbers increase. I enjoy the hunt, even for the mundane.

 

Are there caches that stand out as "higher quality" or "location exceptional"? You bet there are. Are there caches that are bland, boring, and ill maintained??? You bet there are. I just take it all in as part of "the game".

 

In the end... I am not the one Reviewing and publishing these caches. I am not the one hiding them. So when it comes to complaining about them, while I will drop my two cents, the real recourse I have is to do better with my own. We all could follow Briansnats advice. If we did I think the overall experience would be satisfying.

Link to comment

I completely understand your original post and what you are saying. Let me throw out another reason why P&G are a good thing. I walk to and from work, and do not own a vehicle. I am trying to grab one cache a day and without a car this is a tough hill to climb. For example today I walked home from work (88 degrees Fahrenheit) with milk. I didn't have time to hike but being able to grab a simple one on the way home was very convenient.

 

Also I agree with an earlier point, you set your own standard. You are free to hide caches wherever you want (within the guidelines) and if you want to hike 10 miles to plant it, and 10 miles every time you have to maintain it then you can feel good about your cache location. I intend on hiding a couple once I upgrade and I have some places in mind for 2 different reasons; first, the view on some is good, and second I just think the hiding places are good.

 

I think P&G light post and other simple caches are a necessary evil, they serve a great purpose but even in my first week of caching I am already trying to avoid them. I appreciate the heck out of everyone who has ever hid a cache and don't wanna knock anyone's effort. The one a day challenge, and probably others I haven't heard about yet, would be a lot tougher without them. Some P&G are pretty creative in where they're hidden and can be difficult, you might be surprised what you are missing.

Link to comment
I. PLACEMENT Guidelines: Placement guidelines govern the physical location of a geocache.

"When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat

 

There are plenty of reasons to use parking lots. Someone might be on a streak of trying for a cache a day and be a super busy person--they need a quick one. Someone might be having a busy or hard time this week, and finding a cache--even a LPG--releases some tension. Someone might be trying for a cache per county, and they don't have time to go for a hike. Someone might be from out of town and have no way to go find something better. Someone could be recuperating from an illness or they might not be very mobile, and the LPGs get them out of the house.

 

 

Caching Streak: all about the numbers. "They need a quick one": Why? All about the numbers again. Need a cache in a County: All about the numbers. Out of towners: (Presumibly for the "prestige" of finding a cache in a different State) All about the numbers. I'll give you the last one about recuperating from an illness or they might not be very mobile, and it gets them out of the house. But then again, that smiley count increases by one, doesn't it? :)

 

As I've said before in the thread, I'm not seeing anything there that addresses the shear number of them.

 

EDIT: P.S. Do you have any idea what a miniscule percentage of the overall Geocaching population cares about going on a "caching streak"? A small handful of highly active premium members in any given area. Parking lot caches are all about the numbers. Always have been, always will.

Personally, I like P&Gs because they're quick and easy enough to entertain my 4 year old. (Which, granted, isn't a great recommendation.) He loves geocaching, but there are days when I can't hike out and find anything else (I'm one of those disabled cachers, and some days are better than others for me to go hiking). Sure, our smiley count increases, but that's not my motivation, nor is it his; it happens, and it's cool, but it's more important to me to get out and do /something/ rather than nothing. As much as we can, we park in a corner of the lot and walk to the cache, and some days, that really is all I can do, but it's something, and it's time spent with the kidling. :)

 

So, I respectfully disagree... parking lot caches aren't "all about the numbers" to me, and I'd bet I'm not the only one. Do I prefer caches in the woods or interesting spots rather than just in a parking lot because there wasn't one within the required number of feet? Sure. But I appreciate that the game is flexible enough to allow me to look for caches in different ways depending on what I can physically do that day. (I have had to have stern talks with my feet; some days they itch to get out when my body just isn't able, and parking lot caches at least satisfy that.)

Link to comment
Parking lot caches are "SOMETIMES" all about the numbers. Always have been, always will.

 

Just because it is all about the numbers for you, and a lot of people who do them, doesn't mean it is all about the numbers for everyone.

 

Those of you who always harp about things being all about the numbers, sure care a lot more about the numbers then I do. If you didn't, why would you care if some one else likes the numbers?

 

If TPTB were to remove the numbers from our profiles, it wouldn't change the way I cache at all. And I suspect there would still be just as many P&Gs as there are now.

Link to comment

If TPTB were to remove the numbers from our profiles, it wouldn't change the way I cache at all. And I suspect there would still be just as many P&Gs as there are now.

 

I agree. When we complete a task like finding a geocache, our brains release a shot of dopamine and we feel rewarded. Perhaps some people get a bigger shot from finding a cache that took more effort to get to or to find, but we get the reward regardless, even for a P&G. This encourages us to hunt the P&Gs because it results in a quick fix.

 

Some want to replace this brain chemistry with the concept of the smiley reward. Perhaps some people don't get their dopamine fix until the find is logged online and the smiley shows up. But I tend to believe that for most people it comes when the cache is found.

 

People also have discovered there is another shot of dopamine when we complete a particular goal. So many people will celebrate milestones or work on caching streaks. The ability to grab a quick P&G can help achieve these goals. So again they become important in helping people get their dopamine.

 

It's may be that most people are not addicted to geocaching. They participate from time to time because it is enjoyable. They may get other rewards than a shot of dopamine when they find a cache. It may be this is a chance to spend more time with friends or families, or chance to get away and be alone and enjoy nature. It may be an excuse to visit new places; some people will get a shot of dopamine from a change in their environment.

Link to comment
I. PLACEMENT Guidelines: Placement guidelines govern the physical location of a geocache.

"When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat

 

There are plenty of reasons to use parking lots. Someone might be on a streak of trying for a cache a day and be a super busy person--they need a quick one. Someone might be having a busy or hard time this week, and finding a cache--even a LPG--releases some tension. Someone might be trying for a cache per county, and they don't have time to go for a hike. Someone might be from out of town and have no way to go find something better. Someone could be recuperating from an illness or they might not be very mobile, and the LPGs get them out of the house.

 

Those all seem to be within the guidelines to me. That said, individual reviewers are 1) human beings, and 2) volunteers. That means that there will be variations within the system.

 

Bottom line is, geocaching should be a fun, relaxing hobby. The best way to make it fun and relaxing is to ignore caches you don't like, hunt for ones you do, and place caches that will please you when folks find them. That's it really--it's not any more complicated than that.

+1

Link to comment

Well I like PnG's because sometimes if I have time to kill I will use them as time wasters. Also I agree If done well they can be a lot of fun I seen one that was just a flat black magnet and the other side was the log and it was on a old telephone pole blended in perfectly...

 

I also assume they allow PnG's simply because they want to allow Everyone to enjoy in the fun like the elderly and the disabled. A simple fix would be just to ignore these, PnG's is you dislike them from reading a description I can normally tell if it's gonna be the lame light pole or not.

 

 

I am neither elderly nor disabled. Nor are the overwhelming majority of the Geocaching populace. All you have to do is attend a few events, and look around, if it wasn't obvious without even doing that. :) But you didn't hit that point too hard, like many have in the past. Really? We need 50% of the caches in an urban core to be p&g micros because like 3% of Geocachers are elderly or disabled? I'll never buy that one, as insensitive as that may seem to some of you with bleeding hearts out there. :o

 

Oh yes, I've been living by the "don't like them, don't find them" credo since such caches first started showing up in my area in mid-2005, about a year and a half after I started. Pretty simple. But you'd be surprised at how many people run out and find everything listed on the website, and still complain about them. I can't speak for them. :D

 

The elderly and disabled argument is thrown around often. So if you are elderly or disabled it means you have to be sentenced to a geocaching life of visiting parking lots, dumpster areas and guardrails? The elderly and disabled don't deserve caches in interesting areas? I had a taste when I spent the better part of a year on crutches. I didn't suddenly develop an affinity for caching in strip malls.

Link to comment

 

If my mind was in order I wouldnt be searching for plastic containers in the undergrowth and then debating with the world the correct way to do it!

 

ROFLMBO!!! True that! :laughing:

(can't even believe I just spent this much time READING this entire thread...) Whoa...

Edited by ohmelli
Link to comment

I completely understand your original post and what you are saying. Let me throw out another reason why P&G are a good thing. I walk to and from work, and do not own a vehicle. I am trying to grab one cache a day and without a car this is a tough hill to climb. For example today I walked home from work (88 degrees Fahrenheit) with milk. I didn't have time to hike but being able to grab a simple one on the way home was very convenient.

 

 

Well, so much for my theory that a miniscule percentage of high number, all premium member, Geocachers care about "streaks". Then again, you joined in January, but only have 12 finds, and already have holes in your one Week old "streak". I'm glad to hear looking for a parking lot micro, instead of going for a "hike" didn't cause your milk to be spoiled though. It's pretty expensive right now, at least in the Northeast. :P

Link to comment

Who are you to decide that paking lots aren't interesting? Just because you don't like them doesn't mean everyone doesn't. I bet there are some pretty cool parking lots out there. Pics anyone?

 

I'd love to think you're serious, but I know you're not. I mean even Sbell111 admits that parking lots are lame. Where is he, by the way, I miss him dearly. :ph34r:

Link to comment

Who cares if LPCs are all about the numbers? Some people take pleasure in planning out a day and a route and seeing what they can do--they enjoy the PROCESS. What's wrong with that exactly? Some days that's what I want to do--some days I want to go do Earth caches, some days I want to hike in the woods, some days I want to drive a long way. What I love about geocaching is that I can choose whatever style suits my mood.

 

I don't think LPCs really get in the way of other types anyway. They don't block ammo cans in the woods, do they?

 

And as for this:

 

For example, i found a nano under a bench next to a 30 foot high waterfall last weekend.

 

Good! It gets folks out to see the waterfall and doesn't clutter up a beautiful area with folks searching through bushes and trees while non-cachers are trying to find a little peace. A 30 foot waterfall should be left alone to be...a waterfall. The ammo can cache can be down the trail a bit.

Link to comment

Oh my word!

 

As I had stated, I was new to geocaching. After receiving contradictory feedback from: a Reviewer, Geocaching.com's Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines,and caches I discovered, I was confused and could not figure out the answer to my question. This post, after finding little in the forum's search about Park 'n Grabs, was written to gain the answer. The question asked for an "explanation of the guidelines" and not "what is your opinion of the guidelines." I did not solicit nor want your opinion. I wanted the explanation. Paying little attention to the fact that at the start of this post, I had 9 forum posts, 123 finds, as obvious other signs that I am new to the game, and choosing not to read the subtitle I included, Understanding a Discrepancy, is your error. It is not your justification to: speculate about what the Reviewer and I discussed privately; say I erred in posting incorrectly; assume I meant something else (I still don't know what hiking has to do with a Park 'n Grab), call me an elitist, assume that I was stupid and had not researched prior to asking for help, nor is it your justification to not answer the question. It reminds me of a 20+ year old sociology assignment our teacher assigned where we were to people-watch, observe only, so we could attempt to prove or dispel a long-standing belief. I chose to dispel the belief that the youth and elderly do not want to interact or understand one another. I visited a park daily. A youth, not a teen, carrying a chess board approached an older man at one of the chess tables and asked if the old man would teach him to play chess. Old man agreed, youth sat down and eagerly began to play and learn. They both enjoyed one another's company. 10 consecutive days of playing, youth asks how to castle. Others within earshot and eventually further, answered why they thought a player should Castle, when they thought one should Castle, and whether they liked Castling or not. What they did not answer was how to Castle. The youth left with an unanswered question and more confusion. Continued observations showed the youth did not come as often nor play as much and with the same enthusiasm. Granted, I don't know all the events surrounding everything, but the negligence and further confusion contributed to stifling the youth. One of my professor's maxims was that human nature does not change. I can not believe I forgot that lesson. How silly of me. Soliciting an opinion also means soliciting a criticism, whether you wanted it or not, so be careful and chose when to answer and when to opine. The political arena is where your talents may lay, though.

 

Many did provide an answer, and I thank you. With this said, when I set out this weekend to Geocache, I pondered the things said here, and at the time I set out Legochugglerss' 19 May 2012 10:05 a.m. post was all there was. What a surprise this morning. First, with Danny Caffeine's 'done properly' post and the caches I had found, I realized, a mistake I had made. All 'parking lot, lamp lightskirts' are Park 'n Grabs, but not all Park 'n Grabs are 'parking lot, lamplight skirts' caches, even though those are the only kind of Park 'n Grabs I have found. I began to think that if I wanted, I could place a Park 'n Grab at the High Water Bridge on U.S. Hwy 90. I think I found two Park 'n Grabs this weekend, El Castille and Goin' to the Chapel. At these three caches, hunters could see a gorgeous example of Victorian architecture, a beautiful, little church that's been moved multiple times with an historical marker, and the highest bridge in Texas and historical markers. I understand and realize my error now.

Second, Mr. Benchmark offered help, but when he said this is not a competition, I must respectfully disagree for many reasons. If a Park 'n Grab can be placed at some place other than a parking lot's lamp light skirt, but people choose not to, it is because someone will have to work just a little bit to create, hide, and find the cache to add to their number count, which will hinder the "I found 10,000 caches in one hour" brag (hyperbolic, but true). I have attended a few geocaching functions, not many at all, and I have done lots of listening and observing, and never once did I hear someone talking about how they thought a lamp light skirt, parking lot hide was clever, that they were proud of finding a parking lot cache. In fact, now that I think about, I did not have an understanding of Park 'n Grabs even after attending a couple of events and listening to people talk about their finds. I know some of them had to be Park 'n Grabs, but I also know they did not discuss any parking lot hides or finds. Which further points out that when a game is played and scores/runs are kept, that score or run has value because it is measured against the opponent and not just total accumulation of points/runs. Otherwise, why have Division I, II, III leagues in college and similar divisions in high schools based upon student enrollment? The NFL team doesn't scrimmage the local high school football team, even though it would be an NFL win column addition every time, because the win would be meaningless. People who want to have a high find count but realize running from parking lot to parking lot only adds to the number not a meaningful find, a brag check, if you will. I daresay if I asked someone with a high count, "Well, how did your hone your skills and get so good at caching? there would be some reservations, because other than getting to brag about how many caches they have found, they didn't do anything to hone their skills or improve their abilities.

 

Some opinions seemed to say that handicapped people were being deprived, and yes, with a total elimination of Park 'n Grabs, I would agree, that would be a deprivation. Having been sentenced to a wheelchair for 18 months in high school and again in college, and having also used a walker and a cane, I know how much time and effort it takes to get out of the car, get physically situated, and you think going to a parking lot, where drivers are concerned about themselves and finding the best parking space available come hell-or-high water, is a safe place for someone who has mobility challenges? A tampering with someone else's private property (with enough lifting of the light skirts the paint will get chipped and knocked off causing the owner to spend money to have it repainted or let it rust) in the middle of a parking lot at a grocery store, strip mall, shopping center, chain hotel has merit, especially when weighed with the chore of exiting the automobile? It is the bodies that are challenged, not the minds.

 

It is obvious The Incredibles and I play the game differently. I choose to use as little information as possible. Afterall, if you have the coordinates, you know where the cache is hidden. I choose not to click on the View Larger Map, to read the hints, to see other logs until after I have found and logged the cache. I am even trying to find caches using a compass from the 1800s, but I am not doing very well with that; funny, but poor performance. I want to understand how people who lived before and navigated so well without this technology, to understand what it meant to be a scout in any military, Meriwether Lewis's uncanny, dead-reckoning skills, and a sailor even after the Longitude problem was solved. I do, however, read the Attributes, and when P&G is not chosen by the owner, I do not know that it is a Park 'n Grab. I also use the titles. I thought Woofwoof was going to be something about dogs; the description info lended it that way. Instead, I ended up in a parking lot where I could see Home Depot, AT&T, Maurice's, JCPenney, et. al. and watched an owner struggle to keep his large dog from being hit by a car before going in to the chain pet store; I would have been really upset about that. I thought Autobot Ratchet sees the light was going to be something about a solar powered device, or an electronic gadget or a robot, not a lamp light at a chain hotel with a good view of people leavingtheir apartment complex's back exit or the highway traffic. I did not sign that log.

 

IkeHurley13's post horrified me. Geocaching.com obviously had a great reason to eliminate caches placed within proximity of a school. Parents who choose to not homeschool their children, are entrusting the care of their child to someone else, whether it's public or private school. A cache owner who can't resist wanting to place a cache at a school is a selfish individual. A Reviewer who says yes is a fool. Stop thinking like a normal Geocaching player and think outside the box, oh say, like a child predator. Anyone registered with Geocaching.com can get the coordinates for free, and I will bet a year's salary, that Geocaching.com does not check its registered users against a sexual offender registry database state by state. Say that predator hunts like I do, without viewing the larger map (so they can tell their parole officer they didn't know they were hunting within a school's proximity, e.g.). Give that predator the benefit of the doubt (don'tspew your drink, because you'll mess up your screen and keyboard), and the predator leaves the school and decides to come back when the students aren'tsupposed to be in school. Predator returns after school hours when just a few students are present. What happens next? Say the predator does not leave the hunting ground when the students are present. The cache is no longer the hunt; now the students are. Let's hope it's not someone you know. The problem is, by the Prime Reviewer and Geocaching.com allowing the cache to be placed and published, they have exposed children to become victims and targets whether a predator ever acts on it or not. I know two extremely excellent lawyers. They love the law and their very expensive hobbies, which reinforces them to be exceptional lawyers. By choosing not to follow Geocaching.com's stated requirements and allow anyone to do what they want, others are put at an unnecessary risk outside the parents' control and permission, and it is through Geocaching.com's negligence. I can see each one of these attorneys winning lucrative settlements costing Geocaching.com, Groundspeak, the Reviewer, and Cache Owner their financial stability, all because they refusedto stand by a requirement.

 

I revisited the Help Center and Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines, as Palmetto seems to suggest that my mental acumen is deficient and I had not thought to do so prior to asking for help, or that maybe a re-reading might help give me the answer on another read through. I began to research hides and finds < 2005. Originally, it seems, the parking lot, lamp skirt cache was not around or intended as a way to play, even after the death of the Virtual hide, but Geocaching.com has allowed it to evolve into what it is today, a cache simply for placing a cache, regardless of what they state in their guidelines or requirements. It can not be about the money, because being legitimately and successfully sued to the point of filing Bankruptcy and financial ruin would cause a different reaction. It goes back to being able to say you have "x" number of caches, regardless--a meaningless find, other than a number bump for both the hider and finder. Palmetto, I disagree, there is nothing difficult about obtaining an empty pill bottle, creating a log, deciding which lamp light skirt to raise that was not within 1/10 mile of another lamppost, obtaining the correct coordinates with the GPSr, and completing the online form, a little time consuming but only a little; difficult, no. Now, asking and receiving permission for placing a cache on private property might increase the difficulty level, maybe.

 

Geocaching.com should clear up their requirements and guidelines to eliminate the confusion. A Reviewer would not have to be a judge on placement. Require Attributes, not letthem stand as a suggestion. On the online form ask, "Where will the cache be placed?" and if the answer is under a light skirt or in a parking lot light pole, publish request denied. However, if what IkeHurley13 says is true andGeocaching.com refuses to uphold not placing caches at/near a school; sadly, they will not take a stand for any requirement, guideline, or policy, whether it's their policy or someone else's.

edited because many words were run together without spacing.

Edited by flyfshrgrl
Link to comment

So you're new but you're telling GC how to run their business? There are millions of Geocachers and any changes will be loved by some and hated by others, it's almost like a house of card but you know what's best right?

 

On top of that I see yore also trying to tell people how to play the game. Gee, I wish I was that smart.

Edited by Roman!
Link to comment

Hmmm....? Could you...summarize that? Or at least edit so that so many words don't run together?

 

ETA: Ah--that's for editing that!

 

This is a discussion forum. People discuss things here. They express opinions. That's what forums are for.

Edited by Dame Deco
Link to comment

Sorry, but with all the omitted spaces, my eyes began to cross before the end of the second paragraph.

 

The point everyone..EVERY-ONE have been trying to make is that:

1. Groundspeak and their volunteer reviewers are not the arbiters of quality.

2. Quality is subjective.

 

Moreover, Groundspeak is a money-making business. Their goal is to make money from Geocachers by selling memberships, smartphone apps, and Geocaching related apparel and other goodies.

To sell more of these, more Geocachers need to start playing, and to keep them playing, more Geocaches are needed. Groundspeak is going to do as little as possible to impede the continued placement of new caches so that people will continue to participate.

 

The sad fact is that the Lame Urban Micro is here to stay (at least for the foreseeable future), and the only options are to find them to get them off your radar, or ignore them (by whatever means possible) to get them off your radar.

 

Before the favorites system was implemented, I was hopeful that it would include the possibility for finders to 'vote' that a cache was sub-standard so that we could more easily separate the wheat from the chaff, but I now realize that such a system would probably have cut into Groundspeak's earnings by causing Johnny Lampskirt-hider to get upset and quit because all his caches got 'voted down', and therefore he wouldn't renew his membership, he wouldn't be buying any t-shirts, and he wouldn't need the app for his new smartphone.

 

I regularly find caches that leave me wondering why the owner though a cache needed to be there (and usually it's because there was room for one), but they did make some minimal effort by placing the container, and 'writing up' the cache page. So, I thank them in an equally minimal fashion by thanking them for the smiley, and move on to what I hope might be a slightly better cache.

Link to comment

In deciding where to hide some caches, I followed Geocaching.com's Getting Started guidelines, particularly this quote, "When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat . So, if Geocaching.com is going to use this quote in their Getting Started guidelines, why do they also allow PNGs?

 

"explanation of the guidelines": The only people that can explain this is groundspeek.

 

"what is your opinion of the guidelines.": You might not want our opinion, but the only answer we can possibly give is our opinion. My personal opinion is that the guidelines cause enough angst already due their intentional ambiguity without introducing random quotes not intended to be interpreted as actual parts of the guidelines.

 

I am a very competitive person; I used to coach; I started on an NCAA, Division 1 softball team all four years in college; I set and try to break existing fishing records; I understand the competitiveness, but I do not understand having one set of rules so someone can be competitive, and another set of rules by which others must play.

 

"explanation of the guidelines": I don't see 2 sets of rules, so I cannot explain what you are saying since I don't know where you are coming up with it from.

 

Would someone please explain why Geocaching.com allows park 'n grabs but wants people to not place hides for the purpose of just placing a geocache?

 

"explanation of the guidelines": Finally an easy one. The guidelines do not speak to cache quality.

 

"what is your opinion of the guidelines.": Again, you don't want it, but I'm giving it anyway. Even though the guidelines have never spoken to quality, with the exception of the old WOW factor for virtuals, we've seen a continual deterioration in the quality of caches over the years. A lot of these changes have been a direct result of groundspeek's loosening of the reigns, so to speak. The intentional turning of a blind eye to permission issues unless a property owner makes direct contact. Sure, the reviewers do ask for explicit permission on certain land where there have been problems in the past. But by and large there are a great many caches placed where everyone knows permission was not sought nor attained. Most park 'n grabs fall into this category. Considering how strict they are in the forums, it is surprising they turn such a blind eye out in the field.

 

Would someone please explain to me what it is exactly that Geocaching.com wants?

 

"explanation of the guidelines": Again, groundspeek is the only entity that can answer this.

 

"what is your opinion of the guidelines.": Who in the heck knows. But if you figure it out, let me know.

Link to comment

Second, Mr. Benchmark offered help, but when he said this is not a competition, I must respectfully disagree for many reasons. If a Park 'n Grab can be placed at some place other than a parking lot's lamp light skirt, but people choose not to, it is because someone will have to work just a little bit to create, hide, and find the cache to add to their number count, which will hinder the "I found 10,000 caches in one hour" brag (hyperbolic, but true). I have attended a few geocaching functions, not many at all, and I have done lots of listening and observing, and never once did I hear someone talking about how they thought a lamp light skirt, parking lot hide was clever, that they were proud of finding a parking lot cache. In fact, now that I think about, I did not have an understanding of Park 'n Grabs even after attending a couple of events and listening to people talk about their finds. I know some of them had to be Park 'n Grabs, but I also know they did not discuss any parking lot hides or finds. Which further points out that when a game is played and scores/runs are kept, that score or run has value because it is measured against the opponent and not just total accumulation of points/runs. Otherwise, why have Division I, II, III leagues in college and similar divisions in high schools based upon student enrollment? The NFL team doesn't scrimmage the local high school football team, even though it would be an NFL win column addition every time, because the win would be meaningless. People who want to have a high find count but realize running from parking lot to parking lot only adds to the number not a meaningful find, a brag check, if you will. I daresay if I asked someone with a high count, "Well, how did your hone your skills and get so good at caching? there would be some reservations, because other than getting to brag about how many caches they have found, they didn't do anything to hone their skills or improve their abilities.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I was somewhat unclear, although I stand by what I said:

 

2. This isn't a competition. Seriously! At least, there's no score - at least not one that is officially recorded. There are a variety of statistics one can take - trying to use about any of them as a "score" just doesn't make much sense, in my opinion, pretty much for the reasons you've observed.

 

Let me see if I can summarize your questions and confusion a bit, and try to answer this.

 

Q: You've observed first hand at events that some people who play this game are highly competitive. So clearly this is a competition, and it should have rules right?

 

A: You are not wrong - there are several competitive elements to this game:

 

- Race for FTF

 

- Who gets the most finds

 

- Completion of challenges

 

None of this is really officially scored or ranked. There are no rules about how to compete at geocaching because from the perspective of this site, it is my very strong opinion that they DO NOT WANT this to be a competition. However, they also do not want to kill all competitive elements in the game, because it would turn off many people.

 

Q: People who want to have a high find count but realize running from parking lot to parking lot only adds to the number not a meaningful find, a brag check, if you will. I daresay if I asked someone with a high count, "Well, how did your hone your skills and get so good at caching?

 

A: No, they coun't 'em all, and the people with very high find counts tend to find 'em all. Does it make sense that a 1.5/1.5 LPC outside walmart counts the same for the "score" (find count) as a 5/5 cache that requires preparation, and scuba gear and training? No, this makes no sense. However, it does make sense if you understand that the find count is simply not a score.

 

Furthermore, the winner of the race to be first to find a cache is also not officially recorded or scored.

 

Q: But, but but - how can people brag about this stuff? It's relatively meaningless?

 

A: I dunno, but they do. It is meaningful to them, I guess.

 

OK, I'd say more about this, but I'm under the weather so I'm going to go be sick instead. Sorry.

Link to comment

Oh my, that's gonna win an award for longest post on this forum *ever.* :blink:

 

I choose to use as little information as possible. Afterall, if you have the coordinates, you know where the cache is hidden. I choose not to click on the View Larger Map, to read the hints, to see other logs until after I have found and logged the cache.

 

The OP chooses not to look up the cache on a map ahead of time (or read other information about the cache) and then complains afterwards about it not being up to their standards? :unsure:

Edited by The_Incredibles_
Link to comment

Oh my word!

 

As I had stated, I was new to geocaching. After receiving contradictory feedback from: a Reviewer, Geocaching.com's Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines,and caches I discovered, I was confused and could not figure out the answer to my question. This post, after finding little in the forum's search about Park 'n Grabs, was written to gain the answer. The question asked for an "explanation of the guidelines" and not "what is your opinion of the guidelines." I did not solicit nor want your opinion. I wanted the explanation. Paying little attention to the fact that at the start of this post, I had 9 forum posts, 123 finds, as obvious other signs that I am new to the game, and choosing not to read the subtitle I included, Understanding a Discrepancy, is your error. It is not your justification to: speculate about what the Reviewer and I discussed privately; say I erred in posting incorrectly; assume I meant something else (I still don't know what hiking has to do with a Park 'n Grab), call me an elitist, assume that I was stupid and had not researched prior to asking for help, nor is it your justification to not answer the question. It reminds me of a 20+ year old sociology assignment our teacher assigned where we were to people-watch, observe only, so we could attempt to prove or dispel a long-standing belief. I chose to dispel the belief that the youth and elderly do not want to interact or understand one another. I visited a park daily. A youth, not a teen, carrying a chess board approached an older man at one of the chess tables and asked if the old man would teach him to play chess. Old man agreed, youth sat down and eagerly began to play and learn. They both enjoyed one another's company. 10 consecutive days of playing, youth asks how to castle. Others within earshot and eventually further, answered why they thought a player should Castle, when they thought one should Castle, and whether they liked Castling or not. What they did not answer was how to Castle. The youth left with an unanswered question and more confusion. Continued observations showed the youth did not come as often nor play as much and with the same enthusiasm. Granted, I don't know all the events surrounding everything, but the negligence and further confusion contributed to stifling the youth. One of my professor's maxims was that human nature does not change. I can not believe I forgot that lesson. How silly of me. Soliciting an opinion also means soliciting a criticism, whether you wanted it or not, so be careful and chose when to answer and when to opine. The political arena is where your talents may lay, though.

 

Many did provide an answer, and I thank you. With this said, when I set out this weekend to Geocache, I pondered the things said here, and at the time I set out Legochugglerss' 19 May 2012 10:05 a.m. post was all there was. What a surprise this morning. First, with Danny Caffeine's 'done properly' post and the caches I had found, I realized, a mistake I had made. All 'parking lot, lamp lightskirts' are Park 'n Grabs, but not all Park 'n Grabs are 'parking lot, lamplight skirts' caches, even though those are the only kind of Park 'n Grabs I have found. I began to think that if I wanted, I could place a Park 'n Grab at the High Water Bridge on U.S. Hwy 90. I think I found two Park 'n Grabs this weekend, El Castille and Goin' to the Chapel. At these three caches, hunters could see a gorgeous example of Victorian architecture, a beautiful, little church that's been moved multiple times with an historical marker, and the highest bridge in Texas and historical markers. I understand and realize my error now.

Second, Mr. Benchmark offered help, but when he said this is not a competition, I must respectfully disagree for many reasons. If a Park 'n Grab can be placed at some place other than a parking lot's lamp light skirt, but people choose not to, it is because someone will have to work just a little bit to create, hide, and find the cache to add to their number count, which will hinder the "I found 10,000 caches in one hour" brag (hyperbolic, but true). I have attended a few geocaching functions, not many at all, and I have done lots of listening and observing, and never once did I hear someone talking about how they thought a lamp light skirt, parking lot hide was clever, that they were proud of finding a parking lot cache. In fact, now that I think about, I did not have an understanding of Park 'n Grabs even after attending a couple of events and listening to people talk about their finds. I know some of them had to be Park 'n Grabs, but I also know they did not discuss any parking lot hides or finds. Which further points out that when a game is played and scores/runs are kept, that score or run has value because it is measured against the opponent and not just total accumulation of points/runs. Otherwise, why have Division I, II, III leagues in college and similar divisions in high schools based upon student enrollment? The NFL team doesn't scrimmage the local high school football team, even though it would be an NFL win column addition every time, because the win would be meaningless. People who want to have a high find count but realize running from parking lot to parking lot only adds to the number not a meaningful find, a brag check, if you will. I daresay if I asked someone with a high count, "Well, how did your hone your skills and get so good at caching? there would be some reservations, because other than getting to brag about how many caches they have found, they didn't do anything to hone their skills or improve their abilities.

 

Some opinions seemed to say that handicapped people were being deprived, and yes, with a total elimination of Park 'n Grabs, I would agree, that would be a deprivation. Having been sentenced to a wheelchair for 18 months in high school and again in college, and having also used a walker and a cane, I know how much time and effort it takes to get out of the car, get physically situated, and you think going to a parking lot, where drivers are concerned about themselves and finding the best parking space available come hell-or-high water, is a safe place for someone who has mobility challenges? A tampering with someone else's private property (with enough lifting of the light skirts the paint will get chipped and knocked off causing the owner to spend money to have it repainted or let it rust) in the middle of a parking lot at a grocery store, strip mall, shopping center, chain hotel has merit, especially when weighed with the chore of exiting the automobile? It is the bodies that are challenged, not the minds.

 

It is obvious The Incredibles and I play the game differently. I choose to use as little information as possible. Afterall, if you have the coordinates, you know where the cache is hidden. I choose not to click on the View Larger Map, to read the hints, to see other logs until after I have found and logged the cache. I am even trying to find caches using a compass from the 1800s, but I am not doing very well with that; funny, but poor performance. I want to understand how people who lived before and navigated so well without this technology, to understand what it meant to be a scout in any military, Meriwether Lewis's uncanny, dead-reckoning skills, and a sailor even after the Longitude problem was solved. I do, however, read the Attributes, and when P&G is not chosen by the owner, I do not know that it is a Park 'n Grab. I also use the titles. I thought Woofwoof was going to be something about dogs; the description info lended it that way. Instead, I ended up in a parking lot where I could see Home Depot, AT&T, Maurice's, JCPenney, et. al. and watched an owner struggle to keep his large dog from being hit by a car before going in to the chain pet store; I would have been really upset about that. I thought Autobot Ratchet sees the light was going to be something about a solar powered device, or an electronic gadget or a robot, not a lamp light at a chain hotel with a good view of people leavingtheir apartment complex's back exit or the highway traffic. I did not sign that log.

 

IkeHurley13's post horrified me. Geocaching.com obviously had a great reason to eliminate caches placed within proximity of a school. Parents who choose to not homeschool their children, are entrusting the care of their child to someone else, whether it's public or private school. A cache owner who can't resist wanting to place a cache at a school is a selfish individual. A Reviewer who says yes is a fool. Stop thinking like a normal Geocaching player and think outside the box, oh say, like a child predator. Anyone registered with Geocaching.com can get the coordinates for free, and I will bet a year's salary, that Geocaching.com does not check its registered users against a sexual offender registry database state by state. Say that predator hunts like I do, without viewing the larger map (so they can tell their parole officer they didn't know they were hunting within a school's proximity, e.g.). Give that predator the benefit of the doubt (don'tspew your drink, because you'll mess up your screen and keyboard), and the predator leaves the school and decides to come back when the students aren'tsupposed to be in school. Predator returns after school hours when just a few students are present. What happens next? Say the predator does not leave the hunting ground when the students are present. The cache is no longer the hunt; now the students are. Let's hope it's not someone you know. The problem is, by the Prime Reviewer and Geocaching.com allowing the cache to be placed and published, they have exposed children to become victims and targets whether a predator ever acts on it or not. I know two extremely excellent lawyers. They love the law and their very expensive hobbies, which reinforces them to be exceptional lawyers. By choosing not to follow Geocaching.com's stated requirements and allow anyone to do what they want, others are put at an unnecessary risk outside the parents' control and permission, and it is through Geocaching.com's negligence. I can see each one of these attorneys winning lucrative settlements costing Geocaching.com, Groundspeak, the Reviewer, and Cache Owner their financial stability, all because they refusedto stand by a requirement.

 

I revisited the Help Center and Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines, as Palmetto seems to suggest that my mental acumen is deficient and I had not thought to do so prior to asking for help, or that maybe a re-reading might help give me the answer on another read through. I began to research hides and finds < 2005. Originally, it seems, the parking lot, lamp skirt cache was not around or intended as a way to play, even after the death of the Virtual hide, but Geocaching.com has allowed it to evolve into what it is today, a cache simply for placing a cache, regardless of what they state in their guidelines or requirements. It can not be about the money, because being legitimately and successfully sued to the point of filing Bankruptcy and financial ruin would cause a different reaction. It goes back to being able to say you have "x" number of caches, regardless--a meaningless find, other than a number bump for both the hider and finder. Palmetto, I disagree, there is nothing difficult about obtaining an empty pill bottle, creating a log, deciding which lamp light skirt to raise that was not within 1/10 mile of another lamppost, obtaining the correct coordinates with the GPSr, and completing the online form, a little time consuming but only a little; difficult, no. Now, asking and receiving permission for placing a cache on private property might increase the difficulty level, maybe.

 

Geocaching.com should clear up their requirements and guidelines to eliminate the confusion. A Reviewer would not have to be a judge on placement. Require Attributes, not letthem stand as a suggestion. On the online form ask, "Where will the cache be placed?" and if the answer is under a light skirt or in a parking lot light pole, publish request denied. However, if what IkeHurley13 says is true andGeocaching.com refuses to uphold not placing caches at/near a school; sadly, they will not take a stand for any requirement, guideline, or policy, whether it's their policy or someone else's.

edited because many words were run together without spacing.

Thank you. I'm going to save a link to this so the next time someone complains my posts are TL;DR I have something to point to.

Edited by tozainamboku
Link to comment
If you say so. I'm 49, and can't read that little font. :ph34r:

It's not the size, it's the font. Century Gothic is not exactly my favorite font. If you're really motivated you can always cut / paste into a text editor and change the font. I was tempted to reply, but in the end, I feel:

 

1. Others will do so, there's no need for me to jump in

2. Anything I say is unlikely to change how the OP feels

 

It is a well written post, even though I do disagree with parts of it.

Link to comment

Oh my word!

 

As I had stated, I was new to geocaching. After receiving contradictory feedback from: a Reviewer, Geocaching.com's Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines,and caches I discovered, I was confused and could not figure out the answer to my question. This post, after finding little in the forum's search about Park 'n Grabs, was written to gain the answer. The question asked for an "explanation of the guidelines" and not "what is your opinion of the guidelines." I did not solicit nor want your opinion. I wanted the explanation. Paying little attention to the fact that at the start of this post, I had 9 forum posts, 123 finds, as obvious other signs that I am new to the game, and choosing not to read the subtitle I included, Understanding a Discrepancy, is your error. It is not your justification to: speculate about what the Reviewer and I discussed privately; say I erred in posting incorrectly; assume I meant something else (I still don't know what hiking has to do with a Park 'n Grab), call me an elitist, assume that I was stupid and had not researched prior to asking for help, nor is it your justification to not answer the question. It reminds me of a 20+ year old sociology assignment our teacher assigned where we were to people-watch, observe only, so we could attempt to prove or dispel a long-standing belief. I chose to dispel the belief that the youth and elderly do not want to interact or understand one another. I visited a park daily. A youth, not a teen, carrying a chess board approached an older man at one of the chess tables and asked if the old man would teach him to play chess. Old man agreed, youth sat down and eagerly began to play and learn. They both enjoyed one another's company. 10 consecutive days of playing, youth asks how to castle. Others within earshot and eventually further, answered why they thought a player should Castle, when they thought one should Castle, and whether they liked Castling or not. What they did not answer was how to Castle. The youth left with an unanswered question and more confusion. Continued observations showed the youth did not come as often nor play as much and with the same enthusiasm. Granted, I don't know all the events surrounding everything, but the negligence and further confusion contributed to stifling the youth. One of my professor's maxims was that human nature does not change. I can not believe I forgot that lesson. How silly of me. Soliciting an opinion also means soliciting a criticism, whether you wanted it or not, so be careful and chose when to answer and when to opine. The political arena is where your talents may lay, though.

 

Many did provide an answer, and I thank you. With this said, when I set out this weekend to Geocache, I pondered the things said here, and at the time I set out Legochugglerss' 19 May 2012 10:05 a.m. post was all there was. What a surprise this morning. First, with Danny Caffeine's 'done properly' post and the caches I had found, I realized, a mistake I had made. All 'parking lot, lamp lightskirts' are Park 'n Grabs, but not all Park 'n Grabs are 'parking lot, lamplight skirts' caches, even though those are the only kind of Park 'n Grabs I have found. I began to think that if I wanted, I could place a Park 'n Grab at the High Water Bridge on U.S. Hwy 90. I think I found two Park 'n Grabs this weekend, El Castille and Goin' to the Chapel. At these three caches, hunters could see a gorgeous example of Victorian architecture, a beautiful, little church that's been moved multiple times with an historical marker, and the highest bridge in Texas and historical markers. I understand and realize my error now.

Second, Mr. Benchmark offered help, but when he said this is not a competition, I must respectfully disagree for many reasons. If a Park 'n Grab can be placed at some place other than a parking lot's lamp light skirt, but people choose not to, it is because someone will have to work just a little bit to create, hide, and find the cache to add to their number count, which will hinder the "I found 10,000 caches in one hour" brag (hyperbolic, but true). I have attended a few geocaching functions, not many at all, and I have done lots of listening and observing, and never once did I hear someone talking about how they thought a lamp light skirt, parking lot hide was clever, that they were proud of finding a parking lot cache. In fact, now that I think about, I did not have an understanding of Park 'n Grabs even after attending a couple of events and listening to people talk about their finds. I know some of them had to be Park 'n Grabs, but I also know they did not discuss any parking lot hides or finds. Which further points out that when a game is played and scores/runs are kept, that score or run has value because it is measured against the opponent and not just total accumulation of points/runs. Otherwise, why have Division I, II, III leagues in college and similar divisions in high schools based upon student enrollment? The NFL team doesn't scrimmage the local high school football team, even though it would be an NFL win column addition every time, because the win would be meaningless. People who want to have a high find count but realize running from parking lot to parking lot only adds to the number not a meaningful find, a brag check, if you will. I daresay if I asked someone with a high count, "Well, how did your hone your skills and get so good at caching? there would be some reservations, because other than getting to brag about how many caches they have found, they didn't do anything to hone their skills or improve their abilities.

 

Some opinions seemed to say that handicapped people were being deprived, and yes, with a total elimination of Park 'n Grabs, I would agree, that would be a deprivation. Having been sentenced to a wheelchair for 18 months in high school and again in college, and having also used a walker and a cane, I know how much time and effort it takes to get out of the car, get physically situated, and you think going to a parking lot, where drivers are concerned about themselves and finding the best parking space available come hell-or-high water, is a safe place for someone who has mobility challenges? A tampering with someone else's private property (with enough lifting of the light skirts the paint will get chipped and knocked off causing the owner to spend money to have it repainted or let it rust) in the middle of a parking lot at a grocery store, strip mall, shopping center, chain hotel has merit, especially when weighed with the chore of exiting the automobile? It is the bodies that are challenged, not the minds.

 

It is obvious The Incredibles and I play the game differently. I choose to use as little information as possible. Afterall, if you have the coordinates, you know where the cache is hidden. I choose not to click on the View Larger Map, to read the hints, to see other logs until after I have found and logged the cache. I am even trying to find caches using a compass from the 1800s, but I am not doing very well with that; funny, but poor performance. I want to understand how people who lived before and navigated so well without this technology, to understand what it meant to be a scout in any military, Meriwether Lewis's uncanny, dead-reckoning skills, and a sailor even after the Longitude problem was solved. I do, however, read the Attributes, and when P&G is not chosen by the owner, I do not know that it is a Park 'n Grab. I also use the titles. I thought Woofwoof was going to be something about dogs; the description info lended it that way. Instead, I ended up in a parking lot where I could see Home Depot, AT&T, Maurice's, JCPenney, et. al. and watched an owner struggle to keep his large dog from being hit by a car before going in to the chain pet store; I would have been really upset about that. I thought Autobot Ratchet sees the light was going to be something about a solar powered device, or an electronic gadget or a robot, not a lamp light at a chain hotel with a good view of people leavingtheir apartment complex's back exit or the highway traffic. I did not sign that log.

 

IkeHurley13's post horrified me. Geocaching.com obviously had a great reason to eliminate caches placed within proximity of a school. Parents who choose to not homeschool their children, are entrusting the care of their child to someone else, whether it's public or private school. A cache owner who can't resist wanting to place a cache at a school is a selfish individual. A Reviewer who says yes is a fool. Stop thinking like a normal Geocaching player and think outside the box, oh say, like a child predator. Anyone registered with Geocaching.com can get the coordinates for free, and I will bet a year's salary, that Geocaching.com does not check its registered users against a sexual offender registry database state by state. Say that predator hunts like I do, without viewing the larger map (so they can tell their parole officer they didn't know they were hunting within a school's proximity, e.g.). Give that predator the benefit of the doubt (don'tspew your drink, because you'll mess up your screen and keyboard), and the predator leaves the school and decides to come back when the students aren'tsupposed to be in school. Predator returns after school hours when just a few students are present. What happens next? Say the predator does not leave the hunting ground when the students are present. The cache is no longer the hunt; now the students are. Let's hope it's not someone you know. The problem is, by the Prime Reviewer and Geocaching.com allowing the cache to be placed and published, they have exposed children to become victims and targets whether a predator ever acts on it or not. I know two extremely excellent lawyers. They love the law and their very expensive hobbies, which reinforces them to be exceptional lawyers. By choosing not to follow Geocaching.com's stated requirements and allow anyone to do what they want, others are put at an unnecessary risk outside the parents' control and permission, and it is through Geocaching.com's negligence. I can see each one of these attorneys winning lucrative settlements costing Geocaching.com, Groundspeak, the Reviewer, and Cache Owner their financial stability, all because they refusedto stand by a requirement.

 

I revisited the Help Center and Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines, as Palmetto seems to suggest that my mental acumen is deficient and I had not thought to do so prior to asking for help, or that maybe a re-reading might help give me the answer on another read through. I began to research hides and finds < 2005. Originally, it seems, the parking lot, lamp skirt cache was not around or intended as a way to play, even after the death of the Virtual hide, but Geocaching.com has allowed it to evolve into what it is today, a cache simply for placing a cache, regardless of what they state in their guidelines or requirements. It can not be about the money, because being legitimately and successfully sued to the point of filing Bankruptcy and financial ruin would cause a different reaction. It goes back to being able to say you have "x" number of caches, regardless--a meaningless find, other than a number bump for both the hider and finder. Palmetto, I disagree, there is nothing difficult about obtaining an empty pill bottle, creating a log, deciding which lamp light skirt to raise that was not within 1/10 mile of another lamppost, obtaining the correct coordinates with the GPSr, and completing the online form, a little time consuming but only a little; difficult, no. Now, asking and receiving permission for placing a cache on private property might increase the difficulty level, maybe.

 

Geocaching.com should clear up their requirements and guidelines to eliminate the confusion. A Reviewer would not have to be a judge on placement. Require Attributes, not letthem stand as a suggestion. On the online form ask, "Where will the cache be placed?" and if the answer is under a light skirt or in a parking lot light pole, publish request denied. However, if what IkeHurley13 says is true andGeocaching.com refuses to uphold not placing caches at/near a school; sadly, they will not take a stand for any requirement, guideline, or policy, whether it's their policy or someone else's.

edited because many words were run together without spacing.

Thank you. I'm going to save a link to this so the next time someone complains my posts are TL;DR I have something to point to.

LMAO. :laughing:

Link to comment

 

Geocaches are reviewed prior to publication for compliance to the guidelines.

 

My opinion, boring or exciting, of the cache is also a moot point. What are the guidelines? All I seem to be getting is personal opinions as to what people like and why and an odd defense of the cache, instead of an explanation of the guidelines and what Geocaching.com wants and intends.

 

I do find it interesting that the quote Geocaching.com chose to use is under their Placement guidelines, which turn out to be as clear as a churned up, 30-year old cesspool.

 

Table of Contents

 

I. PLACEMENT Guidelines: Placement guidelines govern the physical location of a geocache.

"When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat

 

 

I believe that the reasoning behind using that quote was to encourage the placement of higher quality caches. It's not a guideline however. Cache quality is a highly subjective matter. Heck, people travel from all over the world to do the ET Highway series, which to me is the epitome of lame. 1,000+ park and grabs every .1 mile, gag me with a spoon! Since cache quality is so subjective it would be unwise to ask reviewers to include quality in the review process. As a reviewer I've published hundreds, if not thousands of caches that I personally would not want to hunt. Sometimes I wonder what the CO could possibly be thinking when I read text on the cache page like "this parking lot needed a cache" or "another lame park and grab". I hold my nose and publish because they comply with the guidelines.

 

For the sake of argument, say there was a quality guideline. How would it be enforced? Even with reviewing based strictly on the guidelines there is some variation among the reviewers regarding how they are interpreted. Imagine if something as subjective as quality was introduced into the review process. You think there is inconsistency among reviewers now, just wait. The so called "wow factor" for virtuals was an experiment that allowed reviewers to judge cache quality and it was a miserable failure.

 

I agree with you in principle and I dislike the proliferation of the sort of caches that you're complaining about. I believe that they take geocaching in the wrong direction. I also hate that they create a huge chaff field and make finding the caches that I like a chore. But apparently most geocachers are in this game for a different reason than I am. So I can either quit and fish and hike more, or concentrate on finding and hiding the kinds of caches that I enjoy.

Sorry that I like the Power Trails, and P&Gs and stuff like that!! I WISH I WAS MORE LIKE YOU, since you obviously are a better geocacher than I am!!!

Must be. Geocacher of the year 4 times. :laughing::rolleyes:

Link to comment

Thank you. I'm going to save a link to this so the next time someone complains my posts are TL;DR I have something to point to.

I didn't know you had a twin sister. Thanks for introducing her to geocaching!

No way!!

 

1) I would never use that tiny hard to read font. I agree with Mr. Yuck. That's hard for us older folks to read.

 

2) While my posts are long and some may not have the patience to read them, I hope that most of time I make reasonable arguments. She made a few good points in that post (yes I read it all the way through). But it mostly was the usual rant we see whenever someone posts to the forums and finds that most responses don't agree with them: - You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask what you think the guidelines mean; I asked for an explanation of what the guidelines mean. - I'm not really opposed to park and grabs, it's really just lamppost skirt caches that I was asking about - Suggestions on how to avoid these won't help because the way I cache is to not read the description or look at a map, I just go out with my 1800s era compass and find whatever it leads me to. - It's a good thing that caches aren't allowed at schools because they cause predators to attack children. In the meantime I think I'll hide a P&G on a highway bridge.

 

3) By now everyone knows that I don't think its generally worth complaining that there are some flavors of ice cream I don't like. I suppose that if I ate it with my 1800s Meriwether Lewis spoon I wouldn't be able to avoid the ones I don't like and then I'd be asking why the guidelines don't do what they say they are doing. :unsure:

Edited by tozainamboku
Link to comment

Would someone please explain why Geocaching.com allows park 'n grabs but wants people to not place hides for the purpose of just placing a geocache?

The guidelines are a lot easier to understand if you add a negating clause:

 

All local laws and documented land management policies apply, except when they do not.

Geocaches are never buried, except when they are.

Geocaches are not placed on school property or military installations, except when they are.

Physical elements of different geocaches should be at least 0.10 miles (528 ft or 161 m) apart, except when they are not. (Strike that. That one is enforced, except when it's not)

Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates, except when they do not.

Commercial geocaches are disallowed, except when they are allowed.

You get the idea.

Link to comment
Can someone please let me know if my name was mentioned?

It wasn't. So unless you're her professor, a chess player who didn't tell a youngster how to castle, a young chess player who didn't know how to castle, Merriwether Lewis, a sexual predator preying on school children, Prime Reviewer, or Groundspeak, you're not mentioned.

Link to comment

It is obvious The Incredibles and I play the game differently. I choose to use as little information as possible. Afterall, if you have the coordinates, you know where the cache is hidden.

 

You obviously have not played this game that much. I have found caches where the coordinates were off by a couple *miles* and others that were off by several hundreds of feet. Sometimes you just need to use the information given and make some good guesses.

Link to comment

You obviously have not played this game that much. I have found caches where the coordinates were off by a couple *miles* and others that were off by several hundreds of feet. Sometimes you just need to use the information given and make some good guesses.

What was I just saying?

 

Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates, except when they do not.

Link to comment

You obviously have not played this game that much. I have found caches where the coordinates were off by a couple *miles* and others that were off by several hundreds of feet. Sometimes you just need to use the information given and make some good guesses.

What was I just saying?

 

Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates, except when they do not.

 

Yeah what you said. Only one time could I say the GPS coordinate was accurate. Marching towards the cache, arrow pointed solidly in the direction and distance counting down. When it reached zero I looked down into the stump and there was the cache. 'Course the only place reasonable in the surrounding area was the stump and a couple minutes later the GPS said it was 15 foot that way.

Link to comment

To the OP: When you post to the forums, you are essentially asking for opinions. As a previous poster stated, the only one who can EXPLAIN the guidelines would be Groundspeak. If you are asking us, you are asking for our opinions. You apparently don't like a lot of them. That doesn't make them wrong. If you have a concern with GS about the guidelines or any other aspect of the game, you should take it up directly with them. As you can see, there have been a number of valid reasons posted that justify the existence of Park n' Grabs. You apparently don't like those either. But that also doesn't make them wrong.

Everybody caches in the way that makes them happy. Not everybody caches the same way or seeks out the same satisfaction. There are so many aspects to the game. Pick the one you want and go for it - power trails, long hikes, geocoining, puzzle caches, events, LPCs, the FTF hunt, the list goes on and on. It is incredibly shortsighted to assume everybody should play the game in a certain way. The way you play it is not the way I play it - yet we both can enjoy it. That's the beauty of the game...just go enjoy!

 

edited 'cause I'm trying to be nice.

Edited by steben6
Link to comment

I will be sad if you try to prevent people from making caches YOU dont like,

you are very free to dislike some types, it is nice you are open and talk about your likes and dislikes,

but others actually finde some of them fun for many reasons,

oh yes some PNG are VERY bad, but so are some forrest or mountain caches also.

I have seen a lot of cool, funny, special, and discusting locations due to PNG caches,

and I learned alot about my own city too,

when we travel, we love to cache too, both in the city and where we go,

I think it is great people put alot of stuff out for us to find,

but yes you can be right in some points, please encurage people to: select the location,

the container, its camo and the discription, a bit better, and a bit higher quality

and a alot more maintenence could be very nice.

Link to comment

 

Geocaches are reviewed prior to publication for compliance to the guidelines.

 

My opinion, boring or exciting, of the cache is also a moot point. What are the guidelines? All I seem to be getting is personal opinions as to what people like and why and an odd defense of the cache, instead of an explanation of the guidelines and what Geocaching.com wants and intends.

 

I do find it interesting that the quote Geocaching.com chose to use is under their Placement guidelines, which turn out to be as clear as a churned up, 30-year old cesspool.

 

Table of Contents

 

I. PLACEMENT Guidelines: Placement guidelines govern the physical location of a geocache.

"When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat

 

 

I believe that the reasoning behind using that quote was to encourage the placement of higher quality caches. It's not a guideline however. Cache quality is a highly subjective matter. Heck, people travel from all over the world to do the ET Highway series, which to me is the epitome of lame. 1,000+ park and grabs every .1 mile, gag me with a spoon! Since cache quality is so subjective it would be unwise to ask reviewers to include quality in the review process. As a reviewer I've published hundreds, if not thousands of caches that I personally would not want to hunt. Sometimes I wonder what the CO could possibly be thinking when I read text on the cache page like "this parking lot needed a cache" or "another lame park and grab". I hold my nose and publish because they comply with the guidelines.

 

For the sake of argument, say there was a quality guideline. How would it be enforced? Even with reviewing based strictly on the guidelines there is some variation among the reviewers regarding how they are interpreted. Imagine if something as subjective as quality was introduced into the review process. You think there is inconsistency among reviewers now, just wait. The so called "wow factor" for virtuals was an experiment that allowed reviewers to judge cache quality and it was a miserable failure.

 

I agree with you in principle and I dislike the proliferation of the sort of caches that you're complaining about. I believe that they take geocaching in the wrong direction. I also hate that they create a huge chaff field and make finding the caches that I like a chore. But apparently most geocachers are in this game for a different reason than I am. So I can either quit and fish and hike more, or concentrate on finding and hiding the kinds of caches that I enjoy.

Sorry that I like the Power Trails, and P&Gs and stuff like that!! I WISH I WAS MORE LIKE YOU, since you obviously are a better geocacher than I am!!!

Must be. Geocacher of the year 4 times. :laughing::rolleyes:

 

Actually 6 times, and Geocacher of the Decade too. The field isn't large enough to accept all of that

Link to comment

By posting on a forum you are soliciting opinions. That's how the internet works.

 

IkeHurley13's post horrified me. Geocaching.com obviously had a great reason to eliminate caches placed within proximity of a school. Parents who choose to not homeschool their children, are entrusting the care of their child to someone else, whether it's public or private school. A cache owner who can't resist wanting to place a cache at a school is a selfish individual. A Reviewer who says yes is a fool. Stop thinking like a normal Geocaching player and think outside the box, oh say, like a child predator.

 

Seriously??? Maybe before the rant you should have looked to see I'm a teacher.

 

Now let me think like a bad guy for one second. I want to abduct a kid where do I start? A school, perfect! Now how can I find one of these schools, they're so secretive it's not like I can just look it up in the phone book or online oh I know I'll join Geocaching and hope one of the 100's of local caches takes me near a school where I can commit my crime. OR I could just look it up in a phone book or online. Anyone can get the address of any school for free. Your argument would exclude caches in parks as well since parks are also filled with kids.

 

I gave you that example to show that the guidelines are not rules and are flexible (especially with explicit permission). Most of these caches were set up by the school Geocaching club with help of the teacher, students, and a local cacher. All hides were approved by the Principal.

Link to comment

I fell asleep before the second paragraph of that extremely long post. Can someone please let me know if my name was mentioned?

Actually, it was. I found this in one of the last paragraphs.

 

I revisited the Help Center and Cache Listing Requirements and Guidelines, as Palmetto seems to suggest that my mental acumen is deficient and I had not thought to do so prior to asking for help, or that maybe a re-reading might help give me the answer on another read through. I began to research hides and finds < 2005. Originally, it seems, the parking lot, lamp skirt cache was not around or intended as a way to play, even after the death of the Virtual hide, but Geocaching.com has allowed it to evolve into what it is today, a cache simply for placing a cache, regardless of what they state in their guidelines or requirements. It can not be about the money, because being legitimately and successfully sued to the point of filing Bankruptcy and financial ruin would cause a different reaction. It goes back to being able to say you have "x" number of caches, regardless--a meaningless find, other than a number bump for both the hider and finder. Palmetto, I disagree, there is nothing difficult about obtaining an empty pill bottle, creating a log, deciding which lamp light skirt to raise that was not within 1/10 mile of another lamppost, obtaining the correct coordinates with the GPSr, and completing the online form, a little time consuming but only a little; difficult, no. Hello Max and 99!Now, asking and receiving permission for placing a cache on private property might increase the difficulty level, maybe.

Link to comment

By posting on a forum you are soliciting opinions. That's how the internet works.

 

IkeHurley13's post horrified me. Geocaching.com obviously had a great reason to eliminate caches placed within proximity of a school. Parents who choose to not homeschool their children, are entrusting the care of their child to someone else, whether it's public or private school. A cache owner who can't resist wanting to place a cache at a school is a selfish individual. A Reviewer who says yes is a fool. Stop thinking like a normal Geocaching player and think outside the box, oh say, like a child predator.

 

Seriously??? Maybe before the rant you should have looked to see I'm a teacher.

 

....

 

I gave you that example to show that the guidelines are not rules and are flexible (especially with explicit permission). Most of these caches were set up by the school Geocaching club with help of the teacher, students, and a local cacher. All hides were approved by the Principal.

 

:(

I was really sick yesterday, and overlooked that part of flyfshrgrl's post. (I got through the part of that post that mentioned my reply, answered, and took a nap.) That was really bad form on her part. I feel bad now for replying to her, because you don't deserve a remark like that.

 

@flyfshrgrl - for shame - what kind of sportsmanship is it to flame someone on an internet message board? :(

Link to comment

In deciding where to hide some caches, I followed Geocaching.com's Getting Started guidelines, particularly this quote, "When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat . So, if Geocaching.com is going to use this quote in their Getting Started guidelines, why do they also allow PNGs?

 

Your question confuses me a bit.

 

First, let me mention that like someone else in this thread I do feel that the inclusion of briansnat's statement (which by the way fits well to my own geocaching philosophy) into what is referred to as cache placement guidelines is not a very good idea. In my opinion, There would be other better places to quote briansnat.

 

Although my thinking is strictly logical, I wonder however why you think that a park and grab cache cannot lead to an interesting location.

 

Actually, I do know many caches at superb places where parking at the location is possible (e.g. at some watchout towers with spectacular view) and also know many caches at boring locations where no reasonable parking is close-by (that occurs very often in my region where many roads in the country side are very narrow and parking at the edge is not possible/allowed). Are you using the term park and grab only for caches on parking lots of say shopping centres or something the like?

 

I like to hike and to combine hiking with caching, but sometimes my limbs cause me too many troubles so that I'm then glad that there exist caches at interesting locations that are not hard to find and where parking is close-by.

 

Cezanne

Link to comment

In deciding where to hide some caches, I followed Geocaching.com's Getting Started guidelines, particularly this quote, "When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat . So, if Geocaching.com is going to use this quote in their Getting Started guidelines, why do they also allow PNGs?

 

Your question confuses me a bit.

 

First, let me mention that like someone else in this thread I do feel that the inclusion of briansnat's statement (which by the way fits well to my own geocaching philosophy) into what is referred to as cache placement guidelines is not a very good idea. In my opinion, There would be other better places to quote briansnat.

 

Although my thinking is strictly logical, I wonder however why you think that a park and grab cache cannot lead to an interesting location.

 

I don't think she cares about interesting locations at all - or at least that isn't the crux of her question. I believe she is interested in how one can competitively geocache, and how were one to compete, how could a find from a P-n-G be comparable to a more physically demanding cache. Obviously they aren't comparable at all, nor are they intended to be, but I don't think she likes that answer, and is bemused that people still compare such things. I think it would help her if someone who was competitive about caching would chime in, but the people who are really competitive don't seem to get very nice treatment on the forums, so I don't anticipate that happening.

 

I really think she is looking for a much more structured game than this one, and has difficulty believing that this isn't structured, and yet that some people take it so seriously...

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...